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2 роки томуWhich ESP32 boards can be used for our battery-operated projects? How can we distinguish between good and bad designs? And how do these boards compare to the ones tested in earlier videos?
This time I have a global boards selection coming from Australia, Bulgaria, China, and the USA
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Links:
Comparison Table: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Diagrams and datasheets: github.com/SensorsIot/ESP32-B...
Boards (alphabetically):
Adafruit Feather Huzzah: www.adafruit.com/product/3405
EzSBC IoT controller: www.ezsbc.com/product/esp32_b...
Olimex: www.olimex.com/Products/IoT/E...
TTGO T8 S2 with display: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9Q9avL
TTGO T8 w/o display: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9gyi97
TTGO T18: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AXgarf
Unexpected Maker: unexpectedmaker.com/
Battery Life Calculator: of-things.de/battery-life-cal...
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@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
That was really well explained, and thanks for showing schematics to explain how each board implemented their PMIC/Regulators. The TinyPICO has VBAT and GND pins on the header next to each other - so there was no need solder wires to the JST connector pads ;) Also, max input voltage for the LDO is 6V not 12. I agree under voltage protection would be a great feature, but on a board the size of my TinyPICO, there's not much room to add it.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You can imagine I did not have too much time for each board. So I tried to standardize the procedure... At least I found the info to disable the neopixel in time... I agree about the under voltage protection for the Pico. But not for the other (bigger) boards. It seems that some LDOs have a very low consumption in the lower regions. Maybe manufacturers will include such a feature in newer designs? That would probably be enough for many situations. Without it you easily kill Li-Ion batteries (I know what I am talking about:-( )
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Yeah sure. I tend to only use 1S LiPo packs with over and under protection, and generally only recommend those to people unless they have experience with batteries. I almost always suggest folks don't play with 18650's when they ask, unless they have experience with using them as they have no protection and can be dangerous.
@JamesMyatt1 2 роки тому
I agree with UM. There are protected 18650 cells too and you can use a separate protection board if you want.
@StefanoBettega 2 роки тому
As a owner and a baker of TinyPICO board I'm really proud to see it here. Really useful video as usual! Thanks!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
It is a neat little board!
@theR6969 2 роки тому
It's 3:27 am currently .. I started watching but I can't help but falling into deep sleep myself .. I'll watch it later. 😉
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I hope you had a good and deep sleep! Very valuable these days ;-)
@israelgiron9089 2 роки тому
Thank you for taking the time and effort for making it simple and easy to understand. With an great overview of what's on of some of the most popular boards we are purchasing all over the internet. A very handy one, thanks you Andreas! Just learned a lot.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome! Glad it was helpful!
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
Re the FeatherS2, unfortunately there is no auto-reset capability with the ESP32-S2 native USB implementation, so you just need to manually put it into download mode by holding BOOT and then pressing RESET and letting go of boot. Then it will enumerate and show up as a port in Arduino. Once it's been flashed once in Arduino (and you have Serial.begin() in your setup() - currently a bug in ESP32 Arduino Core), you no longer need to put it into download mode to flash it and it will enumerate as UMFeatherS2 in Arduino in the ports list.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thanks for the input. I thought I tried it this way but was somehow not successful. Now the upload worked (I still did not get Serial working). But I was able to do my measurements. It ran down to 2.7 volts which is very good. I assume the -S2 is less prone to brownouts, but I do not know. I was not able to switch the neopixel off (the tinypico helpers did not compile on the S2) and the deep-sleep current was 1.25mA. Maybe you have information to bring it down?
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess The FeatherS2 auto shuts down the power to the second LDO when in deep sleep, and the APA102 is driven from that, so that is not the issue here. You should be getting around 90uA in deep sleep. Can you try setting IO 40 and 45 to inputs before deep sleep? Maybe they are leaking.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Now it is different: On 1 minute deep-sleep it starts at around 100uA for the first seconds and continually increases to 200uA for the last few seconds (with the PPK II). Measured with the OTII I get 200uA at the beginning and 300 after one minute. The trend is also there. BTW: I suggest to you the same as to the creator of the EzSBC board: Create your example file which can be used by your customers...
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Hmm, I'm getting 92uA stable here on the same revision board that I sent you and 65uA on my newer one. I plan on releasing a helper library with example code, but S2 support from Espressif is still (unfortunately) alpha and buggy - The CDC not enumerating without serial.begin() bug alone causes me a lot of customer support grief :( I'll send you a newer revision FeatherS2 and a TinyS2 as well to try out with your tests.
@BlackXeno 2 роки тому
Hi, I've been through the issue of the drop despite the capacitor. Isn't related to breadboard resistance, but the effect of the inductance of the connections. You can even use smaller ceramic, if placed at ESP chip pins. Electrolytic ones can't usually compensate for short, big spikes, despite their capacity
@michaels3003 2 роки тому
Absolutely. Very short spikes just laugh at "fat" capacitors.
@akhurash 2 роки тому
There should be ceramic bypass capacitors right at the pins of ESP IC, like you mentioned. From an MCU of this capability, there should be a lot more bypass capacitors. I'm not sure if the board makers know the affect of DC voltage and the physical size of ceramic capacitors on it's capacitance value. You can get down quite low on capacitance if the proper package size and rating is not used.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with your solutions. This is why I decided to use the brownout detector to do the "measurement" right where it matters. Most manufacturers did not do a bad job if we look at the values. But of course. 3.5 volts minimum could be improved a lot...
@keen2461 2 роки тому
You're absolutely right. That's the correct approach to handle the tiny current spikes.
@noweare1 2 роки тому
Thank you for your hard work and sacrifice to pass your knowledge on to us. It is appreciated.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome!
@tinygriffy 2 роки тому
Thanks for the nice Oscilloscope Pictures and the in depth comparison, it helps very much when designing your own board ;)
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome. This is what I was hoping for...
@sail4life 2 роки тому
Thank you Andreas! Great overview. Looks like I will continue my DIY approach. I never thought of adding a power path though. That is very interesting.
@tseawell90 2 роки тому
what is your diy approach
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I presented the power path in one of my recent videos and was astonished (and happy) that so many boards already contained one.
@sail4life 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess I'll be sure to check it out. It will certainly come in handy, especially for tethered and solar projects using the battery as a sort of UPS.
@sail4life 2 роки тому
@@tseawell90 My DIY approach is simply to use the bare modules on a breadboard (or a cheap Chinese PCB) with their own LDO and supporting resistors etc. In short, very minimalist, nothing fancy at all.
@ch94086 2 роки тому
Wow, absolutely a great video and what we really need. I've been in the same dilemma trying to figure out what board to use with solar/battery devices, and see the board uses orders of magnitude more sleep power than the ESP. I always look forward to your tests, and glad to see the power monitoring device reports. Only through reports like this will we get halfway decent boards to work with battery/ solar power. The other problem is having to desolder SMD parts. I can hack a board but it is easy for board designers to add a MOSFET to stop power drain from the 5v input.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
With the info of this video it should be possible to design a decent board, I think. But these days we have another problem: Chip shortage. Which forces some manufacturers to change their designs :-(
@avejst 2 роки тому
Impressive test, wow, and time consuming!! Fantastic video as always Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us👍😀
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I hope my work save some work on the viewer's side.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The reason for the high deep sleep current draw of the EzSBC board is that the LC709203F fuel gauge chip needs initialization. Then the deep sleep current will fall to around 11uA. You find the code here: github.com/EzSBC/ESP32_Bat_Pro
@clemensgruber6213 2 роки тому
Have seen similar behavior on a TTGO T-Call with an AXP power management chip. Atm I think a voltage divider is enough for power management and a dedicated IC is not needed, but I see more and more in different TTGO board.
@ME-zu5kg 2 роки тому
Andreas as an avid watcher of your solutions for some time would you ever consider private project fully paid?
@thedarkglovemusic 2 роки тому
I'm 1 min in and you already have a thumbs up. Thank you for doing these videos, they are always amazing.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Glad you like them!
@christopherstimek5154 2 роки тому
Thanks for the video! I frequently develop ultra low power application with the MSP430 processors from TI and have been looking to use a more powerful processor with open source support but haven’t had a chance to evaluate low power sleep mode current. This is really helpful.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Glad it was helpful. Maybe you also watch the last video about the PPK II (if not already done)
@rjhornsby 2 роки тому
“#no #midroll #ads”
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I do not like midroll ads, so I decided that my viewers als not have to suffer ;-)
@GlennHamblin 2 роки тому
Thanks for sharing your evaluation and results. I think the lack of under voltage protection is a mistake that can have negative consequences.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I just learned that it seems to be forbidden to include under voltage protection (in the US) because it enables users to use dangerous unprotected cells. Government wants that the cells itself are protected. Not a bad idea. But most of mine are not protected...
@GlennHamblin 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess That's just crazy. I design battery management systems, and I'm a stickler for safety. There's no way that I don't include under-voltage protection as well as all the other protections. Politicians need to stay out of these areas that they don't understand.
@connecticutaggie 2 роки тому
Nice thorough review. Thanks!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome!
@TheEmbeddedHobbyist 2 роки тому
A 100nF cap helps as electrolytic capacitor do not respond very well to high frequency current demands. also you should switch the battery divider in to circuit only while your ESP32 is active, as there is no point in dividing the current voltage if there is nothing to read it.
@jensgoerke3819 2 роки тому
You got there first - I was just about to write a similar comment.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with the 100nF for RF. But I am not sure if this pattern is only a RF problem because the ESPs consume quite a lot of energy during those current spikes. In my case it was definitively a problem of resistance. The tested boards do not have sophisticated capacitor arrangements and some still get relative small values between the input and the brownout voltage. But it is well possible that it could be improved with a proper cap selection.
@rzorrilla52 2 роки тому
Was going to suggest similar design recommendation - ‘add 0.01uf ceramic capacitor in parallel to a 10-100uf tantalum capacitor’ - this was a very common design technique back from the 70’s - and later - during the TTL days that not only added the 0.01uf to helps help overcome the ESR of electrolytic capacitors during fast current demand, but also for each instance of a chip.
@TheEmbeddedHobbyist 2 роки тому
@@rzorrilla52 True, but still holds true for moden digital designs. We have even faster current demands on chip supplies as the clock freq gets far higher than the old TTL days. As you say the ESR of Electrolytic caps does increase with frequency so they work well for bulk capacitance, but still need help with the local high frequency pulse's. This is also a problem with breadboards where you cant get the caps as close as needed sometimes.
@acopernic 2 роки тому
Well done. The TTGO with battery holder may be a good choice
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Indeed. Also because it is very compact. I use the T-beams for some LoRa projects. They are also very handy because everything is on compact board. No soldering needed...
@avrphreak9121 2 роки тому
Thank you for the video, I was planning on the Lillygo mini for the remote nodes of my weather station, seems to be a poor choice... 😁
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Unless you use a solar panel.
@neilbarnett3046 2 роки тому
Electrolytic capacitors use a wet dielectric, so they are famous for being slow. Tantalum are similar, but do tend to be faster, possibly because of their small size. Polyester and ceramic capacitors are good for regulation and decoupling, as you found. This was all in one of my electronics magazines in the mid-70s. I think if you can see the size of the voltage dip and the duration, then you can work out the charge that is needed and that will give you the best capacitor size. It's been a long time since I did that sort of thing, though. Hope this helps someone.
@AhmadLafi-TheFirst 2 роки тому
Just to add that electrolytic capacitors have the highest leakage current among all.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are right with the quality of the different caps. For the LDOs we also have to understand their behaviors because they react to changing loads. I had exactly the same theory that, if I have a cap big enough to supply the charge needed to fill the spike, the voltage would be stable. But this was not the case as we saw. It seems LDOs do not like big capacitive loads ( ukposts.info/have/v-deo/qZ-kd6KtpW940ok.html )
@h4plugins334 2 роки тому
Very thorough, very helpful. Nicely done. +1 new subscriber
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you and welcome aboard the channel!
@christosmoutevelis4896 2 роки тому
Thank you , interesting measurements !
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome!
@theGentec 2 роки тому
I gotta say, the more i learn about the ESP32 (mostly from you ;) ) the more i like this chip. It has some neat features like RTOS, Deep Sleep and the ULP Processor. It also comes with some interesting integrated Libs like ticker. And even the PWM with ledc seems to be more versitile then the good old analogWrite. Ordered myself some nodeMCU ESP32's to get started with and do some testing... let's see where this leads to :D
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
For sure it is a good choice for your project because it has lots of possibilities. And a lot of different boards are available...
@michaelbeljaars3556 2 роки тому
Have you thought about designing and making your own ideal esp32 deep sleep board? I am sure many here would be interested in purchasing such a board.
@stefanlevedag8072 2 роки тому
That is exactly the thought that came up with me when waching this video. We know what we want, many excellent chips are on the market, we do not need to always pick the cheapest. Many new design show up every week e.g. from Maxim.
@wjn777 2 роки тому
I add my vote - as you have a good understanding of where the current manufacturers go wrong, please consider designing your own board
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I decided not to sell hardware anymore. I did this when I was young. But last year I started a "Superpower project" for that reason. Maybe I will be able to present results after my summer break.
@TheEmbeddedHobbyist 2 роки тому
Have a look at Kevin Darrah, his boards are very low current.
@wjn777 2 роки тому
Andreas, understandable. Even if an experienced engineer as youself could do the pcb design, people could go an have an open source design manufactured. I'm a software guy, so this is the one part I find challenging
@andymouse 2 роки тому
Nice tests, fascinating to see the boards in a mini 'shootout' a great vid....cheers....................TinyPico ftw.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Glad you enjoyed it!
@DodgyBrothersEngineering 2 роки тому
i have been extremely impressed with the TinyPICO's resilience. I am not the most electronically competent, and I am sure I have wired things up wrong several times, but like a Timex watch it takes a licking and keeps on ticking.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Good to know. Thanks!
@sevenacregreen 2 роки тому
Great video demonstrating how difficult it is to design a good board for general use. The brownout issue will be due to circuit impedance. At the sort of frequency components in the current drain, impedance of layout/connections will be very critical for both 3.3 and ground conductors. A range a capacitors starting with 10nF or 100nF ceramic close then maybe 10uF ceramic as well as bulk should solve these issues. The type of ceramic can be critical for the capacitor impedance. Consult the mfr data sheet for impedance vs freq.. many years ago I made a 2 layer board for an 8051 NMOS 40 pin device with a ceramic cap across 5v. If you moved a scope probe along the 2 inch long 5v track from tha cap to the ic with scope reference to cap 0V you could see the spikes grow. Perhaps a basic video on impedance of wires and components would be educational.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are right. Recently I talked with a developer of power supplies, and he mentioned that even the placement of the chips can change a lot. This was very strange for me because I did not think it is so critical. This is why I used the brownout detector to measure the voltage and not me with an oscilloscope. It decides in reality about crashes... Transmission lines are probably a little too special for this channel. You find such videos on more specialized channels.
@McTroyd 2 роки тому
My father says RTFM means Read The Fine Manual. He insists on this point, because he is a US Navy Sailor. He says they never swear. 😁😉👍
@Davedarko 2 роки тому
Ask him what FUBAR means then :D
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I am no native speaker, so I cannot help. I like my version more because it expresses more what i mean when I say it. If it would be fine to read the manual, this word would probably not exist :-)
@McTroyd 2 роки тому
@@Davedarko I got glared at. 😉
@robertcruz7898 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess When we say "Read the FINE Manual", we pronounce it with a fair degree of sarcasm. So, although it is an euphemism, the same meaning is communicated.
@beautifulsmall 2 роки тому
Great video excellent analysis. nice choice of parameters. , specific for battery, low voltage current, VI curve for the board would be interesting, could you see different couloured led's turn off. ? was put onto the tiny pico by a SW engineer but this video has the data. Quiescent current, your pronunciation suddenly clicked with Quiet, the quiet current. my Qwee escent pronunciation has blinded me to the link. Had a tantalum explode on me , first time turn on failure, the psu was set to 50A, the self healing oxidation happens too quickly. A pleasure to watch.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Glad you liked the video (and my accent helped to understand quiescent current ;-)
@jenskapmeyer2579 2 роки тому
Hi Andreas, great evaluation, like always! One question, have you tried putting 100nF ceramic capacitors in parallel to the 10/100µF Tantals to strengthen the voltage stability? They should serve well for the HF peaks.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you. No, I did not try it. I think the dip is not very high frequency, but it needs a lot of energy. This is why the small 10uF ceramic caps alone crashed the MPU. The boards do not have a lot of capacitors and some work with only a small difference between battery voltage and brownout. So it is probably a combination between PCB design and choosing the right caps.
@davidhart1674 2 роки тому
Great video, it was a big help thank you. I like the deep sleep power draw of the ESP32-S2 (rated at 5uA), and so the Unexpected Maker boards are great (TinyS2 in particular). I'm curious how the new Wemos/Lolin S2 Mini goes with the "Battery Shield V1.3.0 For LOLIN (WEMOS) D1 mini", and perhaps Lolin will make a "Lolin S2 Mini Pro" someday. Also, Espressif's arduino-esp32 2.0.0 was released this week!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I think manufacturers will pay more attention to power consumption in the future. Thanks for the tip about 2.0.0 I probably will wait a bit till I switch ;-)
@axelhertwig8258 2 роки тому
Very good video as always and thanks for putting all the effort into this neat excel table. If I want really low consumption, I usually use bare modules with Lifepo4 or Lithium Battery. I am still looking for a (pre-soldered!) Board with minimal passive parts and 1/10" connections. Any ideas?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with the LiFePo4 batteries. They are now much more common than when I made my first video about them. Maybe I have to make another one and compare the two chemistries...
@olivohutcheson8482 2 роки тому
Thank you for this movie! What do you think to add also e.g ttgo t-call to the comparison? It is interesting what is the overall deep sleep consumption of board equipped with sim800.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I also did not include the T-Beam and other lora boards because they are quite different. Maybe I will do it later.
@martinsauerteig4882 2 роки тому
Thank you very much. Again a professional video that, starting from the basics, highlights many important points. If the runtimes are still too short, you should consider switching from WiFi to LoRa and watch the LoRa videos by Andreas Spiess, which are also very good.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome. Of course, using LoRa can be much better. But then I probably would go with an old "Arduino" or STM32 chip because they consume less power (no Wi-Fi needed)
@WacKEDmaN 2 роки тому
LOL "watch the LoRa videos by Andreas Spiess"... ya do realise ya on his channel right?! :P
@tdtrecordsmusic 2 роки тому
Excellent Work
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you!
@jenskaa4044 2 роки тому
For solar charging you can add a 6v zener (or similar shunt) to shunt the solar cells. The voltage will only be over 6v when the battery is fully charged, and then it doesn't matter waisting power in the shunt.
@SteveWrightNZ 2 роки тому
This is a good idea. I thought of this too.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Good idea. Do the standard zeners survive the current produced by the cell?
@jenskaa4044 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess looking at digikey you can get 5w (so nearly 1A) if not enough more can be put in parallel. I have used tl431 in a small solution, combined with a resettable fuse to cut off if more than 80mA is drawn.
@DmitryOrlov_dimorlus 2 роки тому
Thank you! Only one issue: You wrote "Switching TP5410 charger", but as I understood from Chinese datasheet, it is linear charger with boost from battery voltage to 5V. By the way, I made few projects with battery with follow topology - MCP73831 as charger, DW01A+8205A as battery protection, TPS63000 buck-boost regulator for ESP8266, PIC18F24Q10 as CPU for my sensors, that powered directly from the battery and switch on and off TPS63000 (and ESP). I use ESP-NOW for communication with mains powered gateway (another ESP8266) with MQTT. And there is important issue with ESP-NOW - it is WiFi channel. In the controller part I add finding channel because there is no way to know in advance what channel will be used in the gateway.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree, "Switching TPS510 charger is most probably wrong. I only had the Chinese datasheet and did not investigate too much :-( Your board is very interesting. A lot of parts. It would probably be overkill for most projects. But obviously, your use case requires it. Thanks for the hint about ESP-Now. So far I only used it once and do no more remember how I solved the channel issue.
@DmitryOrlov_dimorlus 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess In any case I need PIC (or something else like it) for work with my sensors, so it switches on ESP only if there is new data from sensor and ESP have 3.3V with any battery voltage even if it is 2 or 3 AAA, any voltage from 1.8 to 5.5V. With ESP NOW I works about 1 week for understanding problem with channel. Gateway (slave in ESP NOW) set up channel from router for both WiFi interfaces (STATION and AP) and controller should use the same channel that he doesn't know. The only way that I found - to check all if send is not OK. But channel in ESP NOW API doesn't change channel, I use wifi_softap_get_config() for it. I don't use Arduino, I use SDK for ESP programming, but it is not important.
@stevetobias4890 2 роки тому
Great video as usual
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you!
@eduardo9626 2 роки тому
Ótimo vídeo! Parabéns! Obrigado pelo vídeo
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
O prazer é meu
@zencow 2 роки тому
I've been playing with the Adafruit Huzzah32 Feather boards for a bit. When paired with their brand of Lithium Ion batteries, you get the voltage cut-out protection at 2.5v with the protection circuit on the battery. In my application, I've found that the esp32 resets around the 3.1v level, but then seemed to continue to run normally until the voltage got down to around 2.9v (maybe a little lower, but my memory is fuzzy on this since it has been a while, as I no longer let the battery get down to 3.1v before charging). There is no battery switch, but the board does expose an Enable pin for the 3.3v regulator. For my project, I made my own in-line power-switch for the battery and by using 2 switches (battery and regulator Enable signal), I can connect the battery and charge it with the electronics on or off, depending on my whim of the moment. Most of the time, I just use the in-line battery switch as master power. This was one of the few boards I could find that had on-board charging paired with the esp32 at the time I discovered it, and their battery has the cut-off protection circuit, so I've been liking that combination. It's great to see so many other esp32 options with on-board charging available these days!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The Huzzah was much better engineered than the Chinese boards when it came to the market. Now the Chinese did their homework and became much better...
@Palominostudio 2 роки тому
Hi Andreas, Very nice, this is good information. I am playing with the Arduino MKR1010 which as the bq24195L power management chip, that is rather a nice device as the output of the battery management chip is derived from boost conversion in the chip. A rather sorted piece of hardware. Also the chip is connected to the processor with IIC so one can control and monitor it in code, very nice. The power path management is done by it as well, and it can be fed directly from solar cells. Lots of good news, I am enjoying the product. It integrates very nicely into the Arduino IOT, which is also quite sorted these days. Thanks for the video, always good and I enjoyed it. Kind regards, South Africa
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you for sharing your experience. I once tried a MKR1010, but it was quite expensive if I remember right. I think it is good if you have 12 volt solar panels. For battery operation the two processor concept is probably not ideal.
@Palominostudio 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Yes it costs a bit more and does not fit the topic of low power projects. I do like how they did the battery management, quite thorough.
@christianl.9219 Рік тому
Thanks to Andreas for the videos, which are definitely unique. What is the correct way to connect a solar panel to an input that says 6V max? I think this affects a few boards.
@AndreasSpiess Рік тому
Usually they use TP4056 and they should be good for 6V. So just connect the panel instead of USB
@dreamcat4 2 роки тому
Andreas thanks so very much for your recent recommendation of this nordic power profiler 2... it's something i very much will be looking forwards to getting. A great instrument. For these esp32 is an interesting selection, but is also missed out the trigboard by Kevin Darrah in USA, it would have been nice to see how well it compares to these cheaper ones. However the trigboard is more expensive and perhaps its hardware is a little bit more closed in its design than these others IDK. BTW fellow youtuber sdg electronics also made very recent video about the capacitors for LDO and is also a small help in regards to educating beginners (blike me!) about these choices. But thanks again also for your take on these subject(s). Very useful
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The trigboard indeed is a very special board and I once had one in a mailbag. And the video I mentioned was the one from SDG electronics. It was for LDOs in general and I did not see what he saw in my tests. Maybe because the loads of the ESPs ae very short.
@dreamcat4 2 роки тому
but what i have been really wondering the most here Andreas, is if we can get a reasonable chinese esp32 board, such as for ecample here the lowest you tested. Such as this ttgo t18 boards. Then figure out some kinds of optional hardware mod(s) to take it even lower down in the sleep current from 53uA to the lowest posible levels (like of a trigboard). which would only be a few uA and similar sort of levels as can be achieved on the very best available. Not to have to be quite the very lowest, but close enough, that it is enhanced over the stock board and those power mods themselves are actually worth the extra trouble to justify to do the modifications. Another different option which i have also been considering is well... what if the project does not need wifi connectivity? Then perhaps a low power stm32 chip can also have a deep sleep for other embedded but 'not IOT' battery powered applications. Then i see in aliexpress they sell boards from places like 'schoolDIY store' which have STM32L053C8T6 or STM32L071CBT6. These ones advertise with good features set and low price. Especially for the timers and other strengths in stm32 platform. And being same family to share your own existing previous source code from other stm32 projects (like f4 black pill, and being on PIO with stm32duino Arduino_Core_STM32 libraries). Then you can build your own C++ classes and share them across project to include the low power variant chip. But again it is not good for wifi. Because we hit the same problem that stm32 does not support the wifi very well. But what about for LoRA connectivity? So for that maybe we need other solutions? To also achieve a very low for the deep sleep current too. It would be nice to know
@Burgduino 2 роки тому
using nanopower timers is the solution which potentially can reduce power consumption to the minimum... BUT there are two things to consider.. if your application wakes up every few seconds or minutes even connecting to wifi or if when waking up it stays connected or consumes much power for extended periods of time before going back to deep sleep, a timer might not be really as efficient... other than that what often is neglected is the Iq involved with the charger and battery protection circuitry (and as you can see on the video, some boards have, some boards have not one or both these elements)... usually its 4-10uA depending on the components chosen... and often is not even added to power consumption estimates for a design which again, often measurements are taken AFTER then battery protection circuitry making it impossible to extract actual measurements for battery life
@dreamcat4 2 роки тому
@@Burgduino ah cool man! so what i am hearing is we want to add a nano power timer chip to the power circuitry of some esp32 board that is like the trigboard. and then try to avoid waking up too often. but also not to use wifi - it we can avoid it! because powering up wifi might use a lot of power especially if the device is in poor signal area far away. and / or might have a noisy spectrum and then have difficulty establishing a new connection. but really that situation is not avoidable without switching to something else. maybe like LoRA in that situation? i am asking for those wireless application requiring a higher polling rate. but i see LoRA is also needed for longer distances too :)
@clemensgruber6213 2 роки тому
The ESP32 board with the lowest deep sleep current I found was the Pycom WiPy with < 20 uA. It has to be programed with an FTDI cable and had no charging chip on board.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
A good choice for deep-sleep. My "Breadboard" ESP32" has a deep-sleep current of 6.3uA (without voltage regulator). But those are probably a different class of boards.
@vivekchauhan7468 2 роки тому
Interesting......Such a useful stuff..
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Glad you think so!
@Cam-by5it 2 роки тому
Thanks for an interesting video, could you point us in the direction of the video you watched about capacitors on the power supply? Also, have you done a video showing how to implement low voltage protection?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Here is the video: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/qZ-kd6KtpW940ok.html. And yes, I did a video on battery protectors (@160)
@Cam-by5it 2 роки тому
Thank you Andreas
@chuxxsss 2 роки тому
Must watch this after I return from the bush. Small gold this time Andreas.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You have plenty of time. My summer break starts in a week...
@TuncayKandemir 2 роки тому
Excellent, thank you
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome!
@LarryBank 2 роки тому
If you install the 2.0.0-alpha1 ESP32 Arduino support you'll be able to compile and run your code on any ESP32-S2 board. If you pick "ESP32S2 Dev Module" it will work on all S2 boards, but perhaps the custom pin definitions of some Adafruit boards might be different.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The compilation worked and also the uploading to the TTGO S2 board. I had to press the boot button /reset button and release the reset on the feather S2 board to upload. Now it works, too.
@max9111 2 роки тому
I am not surprised of your results on the breadboard, and I don’t think you are too. I have tried cheap ones and more expensive ones - I am a debuttant in electronics - and, although more expensive ones are definitely better, they are full of weird effects due probably to their hidden impedance, inductive and capacitative effects. Recently, for fun I tried to set up a damped LC oscillator on a Chinese no name breadboard and didn’t work (I thought I was really stupid!). I tried it on one I bought from Farnell France and it did work flawlesly. I then tried to build on the same board a Colpitts oscillator with very weird results. The same oscillator solderered on a perfboard did not give me a problem!! I don’t think I will use breadboards anymore if not at the early stage of testing. And by the way, as usual really neat video.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you for sharing your "breadboard experience". I read that there are differences in breadboard quality, but I never did tests. I would have expected problems with "RF stuff" but was a little surprised with the "DC stuff". But of course, these spikes are also RF in a way. I think my experience can be useful if people connect their ESP boards to batteries or external power boards. Long Dupont connector probably can create the same issues I encountered on my breadboard.
@eugy2008 2 роки тому
Andeas, which two cheap components for under-voltage protection did you speak off? I cant seem to remember any of your previous under-voltage "study" videos. PS. I strongly suggest you keep video numbering practice. Personally, it helped me alot to find what I needed. Have a good vacation!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
1. Here is the link to the video: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/aaKYZ5COr3h_tnk.html 2. The videos will always be numbered. Just not the latest about ten
@eugy2008 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you for the link.
@Electromakerio 2 роки тому
The Nordic Power Profiler is a fantastic bit of kit.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Unfortunately, it seems to be sold out after my video :-(
@Electromakerio 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiessLong lead times too. The first release is still available: www.electromaker.io/shop/product/power-profiler-kit-for-nrf5x
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
No wonder. It is useless for ESP32 because it’s current is limited to less than 100mA if I remember correctly
@Electromakerio 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess It can measure current from 1 uA up to 70 mA, so yes.... quite limiting!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I have one but never used it
@PhG1961 2 роки тому
Excellent !!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you!
@rpavlik1 2 роки тому
The Adafruit MagTag had an esp32-s2 (and an eink screen) and it's much more tuned for battery usage than their earlier boards. It lasts several days in deep sleep waking up daily to update the display (using CircuitPython!). Very low quiescent current regulator, and a super bright green power LED being run at micro amps. Ladyada used the ppk2 in several videos showing the process of tuning it. It's more like 40uA. It seems these battery lifetime estimates are always too optimistic. I suspect the spikes from the wifi make the battery life non-linear. Lack of low voltage protection doesn't worry me too much, since most pouch LiPo cells come with protection.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are right, the Adafruit board is quite old. But this is what I had for the comparison. I did not want to compare boards with e-ink this time because they are quite special and expensive. They also sell the Feather S2 from UM. So Ladyada probably had no need to create her own board. Low voltage protection on the cell is much better, of course and I heard that it should become the standard.
@guywhoknows 2 роки тому
I'm having big issues with projects and battery life. My test showed 800mha draw in use. And I am looking at making a circuit just to deal with battery supply and protection. There is a small board out there, but I need to check input power range. Always a pain. But with a 4 hour run time, I need to also look more into the coding. But feel it's not so much the voltage causing the issue and more the current.... Inductor planed.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The voltage has to be around 3.3 volts for the chip. So only the current decides on the battery life. After this video you should have the needed know how to do your checks or evaluate a good board.
@Ant-up3iy Рік тому
Hi Andreas. Great video. I have a raspberry pi 4 I would like to add some form of UPS to. Around 5 hours runtime would be fine (just to protect against brief mains power cut). The case I have for it cannot accommodate a HAT-based UPS. I would welcome your thoughts on what you think about using one external to the raspberry pi, connecting it via female-to-male GPIO ribbon cable? Say something like the PiJuice (or any other you may recommend)?
@AndreasSpiess Рік тому
A few years ago, I started a "superpower" project to create such a board. Unfortunately, it was killed because of the parts shortage. I did not look into this topic since then because I solved my problem in a different way: I purchased a 240V UPS for the network as well as the computer. A simple solution could be a powerbank that allows parallel charging. Not easy to find, though.
@Ant-up3iy Рік тому
@@AndreasSpiess Thanks Andreas. I suspect you are referring to a UPS that provides devices with PoE? Is there a particular model you could recommend?
@AndreasSpiess Рік тому
@@Ant-up3iy No. Just an ordinary 5V powerbank.
@leslietroyer452 2 роки тому
How about adding another attribute to your spread sheet. JTAG compatible!!! Most of my TTGO boards use one or more of the pins for built in peripherals like screed/SD card. It would be super if it had headers for the ESP-Prog, but having the pins unused is better
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree. I left a link to the diagrams if you are interested. Not many of my viewers use JTAG...
@DavidThomas-vv1lh 2 роки тому
Thank you Andreas a useful presentation as usual. What do you think of the Lolin D1 mini pro. I have used a couple for a data logging project yet to go live which will log every 2mins the tempreture and wieght of a kiln for an eight hour cycle. I am using deep sleep and the life on a battery 2Ah seems good several days in fact. Charging is an issue as the unit will be used in Africa. Solar is possible but i am interested in Thermoelectric genarators as a hot kiln is involved. How do tell the maximium allowed input voltage? By the way were are you based i see it is around Basle My wife's family live in Seltisburg near Liestal and we are often over or would be except for Covid
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
1. Maybe you check if your board is in my list. Otherwise I have no values 2. You find the maximum allowed voltage of the charger circuit in its datasheet 3. Seltisberg is 3 km from where I live (Lausen)
@DavidThomas-vv1lh 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you. I thought the scenery in one of our outdoor video's looked like the area. I have been through Lausen a few times
@DavidThomas-vv1lh 2 роки тому
I have just been told by my wife that we got married in Lausen (church blessing)!
@robandsharonseddon-smith5216 2 роки тому
It's worth repeating the capacitor test with both electrolyitics and ceramic caps together. High esr in the electrolyitics means they font respond fast enough. Ceramics are very quick but low capacity. Tantalum beads are a good compromise but expensive...
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with your analysis if you want to build your own board. Then you have to take into account also the behavior of the LDO because it also can be influenced by the caps. Thi is why I used the brownout detector of the ESP32 to decide how good the manufacturers chose their parts. I found (without deep analysis) that the solid polymer caps are a good compromise, too.
@mrtnsnp 2 роки тому
I always assumed that RTFM stands for "Read the Fabulous Manual".
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Of course ;-)
@connecticutaggie 2 роки тому
My favorite is the TTGO LILYGO. It is like the T18 but also has a small OLED display. The one thing I do not like is that it is easy to put the battery in backwards when you are in a rush and if you do, it blows up the battery charger IC (I think).
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you for sharing your experience. I also like the T-beam with LoRa for a similar reason. They are very compact and have what is needed on one board...
@connecticutaggie 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess I bought a pair of LoRA boards after your videos on them but LoRA is not so popular in the US so I could not use the Things Net - only peer communications and there are lots of options that can do that.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
A lot of people here use their own gateways (me included). Any you can connect it also to TTN where you live I think.
@sanfourbensanfer3911 2 роки тому
Very nice 👍 thank you
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are welcome!
@hoggif 2 роки тому
TTGO T18 is a useful package due to battery holder. Having a switching regulator, it can be more efficient with higher battery voltage like 4.2 than other modules linear regulators.
@WacKEDmaN 2 роки тому
its a nice package...but it has issues... ya cant power many sensors with wifi enabled..either from the battery (browouts without sensors!) or the usb...
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with the form factor.
@albertdandl 2 роки тому
Hut ab - Deine Videos sind alle eine Wucht - Danke!!!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Bitte, gern geschehen!
@janlietaer9046 2 роки тому
Dear, Did you mesure the resistance of the breadboard that caused the brownouts?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
No, I did not measure it.
@Kevindarrah 2 роки тому
I wonder how trigBoard v8 stacks up :) ;)
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Very well, I assume. But it is not comparable in many ways (it is a different concept and should be compared with a barebone ESP module). This is why I did not include it in this comparison.
@D.Axtmann 2 роки тому
Hi Andreas, Could you tell me how you programmed the TTGO T8 with display? I bought one a couple of months back but I still couldn't set it up with the Arduino IDE and find any resources on how to use it's IO (like the display)
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I did not program the display, just the deep-sleep test sketch. You need the development version of the ESP32 infrastructure to support the -S2 chips
@D.Axtmann 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess oh okay. Didn't know that. Thanks for answering my question and greetings from Karlsruhe :)
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You find the link for the preferences tab here: github.com/espressif/arduino-esp32
@D.Axtmann 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you! :D
@dmitrysysoletin9967 2 роки тому
Dear Andreas! If you want to protect your battery from overdischarge, probably it will be better to connect resistive divider after low-voltage protection circuit?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Yes, you are right. I wanted to show the bad effect of such dividers (none of the boards had a low voltage protection)
@Wilksey37 2 роки тому
Interesting, would be useful as a follow up video to show how to achieve the best results from an UV circuit (be it added to the boards or in line with the Li-Ion and the input connector on the boards. Good video though!
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I already made a video about under voltage protection. I agree it would be best with the batteries and not the boards (for safety).
@Wilksey37 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Ah, OK, is it linked in the description? I must be honest and say I couldn't see it. Thanks.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
ukposts.info/have/v-deo/aaKYZ5COr3h_tnk.html
@Wilksey37 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess There is an post on EEVBlog about your video (www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/pain-and-suffering-getting-the-dw01-and-8205a-protection-circuit-work-right/ ), that DW01 chip isn't freely available, not in my country anyway, is there a alternative from companies like TI or LT/Analog? Thanks
@FulcanelliRosetta 2 роки тому
Sorry if I sound like a novice but could you also implant a Jule thief to improve the low power drain and improve battery life?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Because it is dangerous to discharge Li-Ion batteries below around 3 volts I would not use a Joule thief.
@katurov 2 роки тому
At 14:38 on a schematic I see what USB VBUS and Ground are connected right after the 100k resistance and D5. Will this work as described?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I assume R17 is used to discharge the gate of the FET (gate to ground). The drawing is a little misleading, I think because of the power path.
@parranoic 2 роки тому
I ordered one with a 18650 holder on the same board, but I was wondering if I can find one with LCD and battery holder at the same time
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
We use the TTGO T-beam for that
@MoritzvonSchweinitz 2 роки тому
Thank you for your video. Am I missing something, or shouldn't it be THAT hard to build an almost perfect ESP battery powered board, as long as decent components are used? Do you have a theory why the results disappointedly still, after many years, vary so, so much? I would expect all "battery ready" boards to only consume
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I think things improved considerably and we get some good boards. I do not know what use cases the designers have in mind for their boards. Looking at the EzSBC (after properly disabling its gauge chip it has a consumption of only 11uA with very standard chips (HT7333 and A4056). It still lacks a power path. And I learned that under voltage protection is forbidden on board (in the US) because government wants to have this feature in the battery packs, Which is a good thing if it will happen. So we have at least a prototype design... I am sure my videos are watched by the relevant people (at least outside China). So they have the information to act.
@MoritzvonSchweinitz 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Let's hope thing will get better! A neat feature to have on the boards would be a switchable power rail which the ESP can turn on and off so that sensors can easily be completely powered off when not needed, too.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
That would for sure be good. sometimes I connect VCC of the sensor to a pin. Then I can switch it...
@user-qz3rv3rt8o 2 роки тому
Can you tell me what is the difference between the“ bat pin” on the esp32 board and the specific lithium battery interface（JST）? Lithium battery connected to these two interfaces seems to be able to make the development board work.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I do not know which board you have in mind. But you find links to all the diagrams where you can see the wiring.
@user-qz3rv3rt8o 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess I use the lolin D32 board, and I don't understand the diagram very well.
@polycrystallinecandy 2 роки тому
Are there any batteries that will fit in the TTGO board holder that also include a battery protection circuit?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I do not think so. They are all longer than the standard.
@polycrystallinecandy 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess thank you
@WacKEDmaN 2 роки тому
it seems not all boards are equal..even if they are the same model... i have the TTGO T18... i cannot get it to run from battery without brownouts.. even with usb power the brownout happen if you enable many parts, eg it will often fail when wifi is enabled... it seems you cant power many sensors via the battery or usb...if i power the sensors with another supply it works fine.. thanks for the info Andreas, nice and concise as usual!
@Burgduino 2 роки тому
try a different battery.. like devkits and esp boards, not all batteries are made the same
@WacKEDmaN 2 роки тому
@@Burgduino tried multiple 17650s that are fully charged..thing is usb cant even supply enough power to run the 3-4 sensors and wifi...
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
@WacKEDmaN: Maybe you connect the oscilloscope across Vcc and gnd of the ESP chip or close to it and maybe adding a cap at the right place might help. In my tests it ran down to 3.1 volts, but without sensors.
@objection_your_honor 2 роки тому
Most good PS designs include a 0.1uF in parallel with the output cap. Sometimes even a 0.01uF as well. If you want the best filtering (expensive), use 2x 47uF Aluminum polymer (used in cpu power coupling) in parallel, with a 1mH inductor connecting the 2 positive sides of these 2 caps. This would be like killing a fly with a sledge hammer! You can also place a 3.3uF aluminum polymer across the Vcc and Gnd on the ESP32 module. The closer, the better. I used this last option on a project, and no more crashing.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree, your solution is good. Small distance and a good ESR cap. And an inductivity against RFI I think, the ESP chips create a very different load. The current spikes are extremely high compared to the average. I would not call it "ripple" as with normal PSUs.
@objection_your_honor 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Aluminum Polymer caps are the most expensive and used in bypassing CPU core supplies to get rid of these huge spikes, because they have extremely low ESR, but don't do well in 85ºC or higher temps.
@innomkr 2 роки тому
Andreas, you should check ESP32-S2-DevKit-Lipo from Olimex. It uses LDO from Microchip - MCP1700. The deep sleep current of the board is around 6uA.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I googled and they specify 65 uA in deep-sleep mode for the board with a WROVER module. Is the one with the WROOM so much better? The WROOM itself specifies 20uA
@innomkr 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Sorry, my bad. My comment was based on information from this blog post olimex.wordpress.com/2020/05/18/new-open-source-hardware-board-esp32-s2-devkit-lipo-breaks-our-internal-record-for-esp32-low-power-consumption/ below in the comments, Olimex explain that Espressif initially claimed 5uA of deep sleep current and after that claimed 20uA. This is where the confusion comes from. Anyways, it should be around 25-30uA which is good.
@AndreaZeta 2 роки тому
Hello Andreas, I found that the Wemos Lolin32 (not the lite version) is a good battery operated deep sleep performer. Perhaps discontined, it is stll easly available. The feather huzzah 32 keeps the usb interface powered by the battery, no way to switch it off, this makes it unusable w/ the battery! I have read on their forum they had problems programming the board w/ a more current conscious circuit... :-{
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
Both my Lolin32's give me between 125uA and 175uA in deep sleep. They were my favourite ESP32 board before I designed the TinyPICO and realised 125+ uA was pretty poor.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are right. Board 2 in the table gave 125 uA for deep sleep. Which was a very good value back then...
@robvanderwouw9063 2 роки тому
In the table for the ttgo t18 you specified 10V as a max input voltage. How did you arrive at that conclusion? I have successfully fried the ldo on this board by connecting a very small solar panel (max 6-7 V) to its battery charger and having it lying in the sun for a couple of hours. Furthermore: the ttgo t18 energy board sells on Ali both from the original manufacturer at 11 euro and from different sellers at half the price. I ordered both for comparisson. The are componentwise identical and the chinese knockoff only differs in its silkscreen type text. Even the chinese copy from each other successfully. Nowadays I protect my solar powered boards with a simple zener diode from overvoltage, just like someone else also suggested in the comments below.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I checked the maximum voltage of the charger IC. Did you check the open voltage (nothing connected, full sun) of your solar panel? because if the battery is charged, no current flows and the solar cells can get to a high voltage.
@robvanderwouw9063 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess thank you for your reply. I will do some experiments when the sun is back!
@DmitryOrlov_dimorlus 2 роки тому
I use ceramic 100uF capacitor across ESP8266 (and ESP32 also), I think it is the best choise.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
This is probably a good choice. My ceramic assortment stops at 10 uF :-(
@DmitryOrlov_dimorlus 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess lcsc.com/product-detail/Multilayer-Ceramic-Capacitors-MLCC-SMD-SMT_100uF-107-20-6-3V_C98820.html
@BuiltNotBoughtUK 2 роки тому
I could really do with some help. If you can spare a moment? I'm trying to find a small board around 35x20mm max that has lipo connector and charging support to control 8 Led's with pwm. That is budget friendly. the TinyPico V2 is great but quite expensive. Is there any other basic options that fit these requirements?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I showed the boards I have. So you have to search yourself if something like that exists.
@jamhough22 2 роки тому
A better capacitor / placement would be to add a small surface mount 0.1uF as close as possible to the regulator, nice wide trace, the low inductance would then help with those small voltage drops, then a 1 or 10uF is probably all that is needed for a stable voltage.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
You are right if you design a PCB. I think, the manufacturers did not do a bad job if we see the minimum voltage before the crash. But for sure, some high-quality caps would have provided a little bit more. Unfortunately, nearly nobody sees it and the BOM gets more expensive...
@FuzzyScaredyCat 2 роки тому
@5:04 Could you not take the output from R2 and attach it to a pin on the ESP32 so that you could "activate" the voltage divider, take a measurement and then deactivate it to eliminate the loss? Also what disadvantages are there of using hibernation mode Vs deep sleep?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Some boards insert a FET in front of the two resistor to switch the divider on- and off. You probably could attach the ground pin of the divider to an ESP pin and switch the pin to high if you do not need it. Like that you would reduce the current. But you would have to check if its voltage stays below the 3.3 volts. I never used the hibernate mode so far. Is it supported in the Arduino IDE?
@FuzzyScaredyCat 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, I think hibernate is supported. The only issue I had with it was when the esp32 started up I didn't get a reading from my dht11. I suspect I need to start something after the esp32 wakes, but I got side tracked making another clock. hibernate does also remove any external trigger and relied on the rtc only, from what I've found. I think it's just a simple call to esp_sleep_pd_config(ESP_PD_DOMAIN_RTC_SLOW_MEM, ESP_PD_OPTION_OFF); esp_sleep_pd_config(ESP_PD_DOMAIN_RTC_FAST_MEM, ESP_PD_OPTION_OFF); esp_sleep_pd_config(ESP_PD_DOMAIN_RTC_PERIPH, ESP_PD_OPTION_OFF); after setting your wake timer then starting deep sleep.
@axelhertwig8258 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess You can put the pin (GND of the voltage divider) to input as long as not needed. Then it becomes tri-state. I think this is default during deep sleep anyhow.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
And then your two pins will be at 4.2 volts... No current, no voltage drop :-(
@axelhertwig8258 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess My fault, good that you remind me that the divider is not only bringing the voltage into the range of the ADC but also protects the pins from overvoltage. I start to like the simple design of the EzSCB with the fuel gauge more and more...
@MrSebkilou 2 роки тому
Hello Andreas, funny, I developed a similar app (not published) for Android to estimate battery life. You forgot to mention that the TTGO T18 can measure the battery voltage. And finally, can you explain how it can charge the battery with the diode D6 ('Fuse') ? Really strange.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I left a link to a video explaining the power path in detail. Maybe you watch it.
@berenscott8999 2 роки тому
I've just started playing around with a vocore2, it's tiny, would love a battery solution for it.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
This should be quite easy because it will probably not have the issues with low current consumption during deep-sleep.
@Burgduino 2 роки тому
I think i am working on something that could help you a lot ;)
@berenscott8999 2 роки тому
@@Burgduino Yes definitely, I'm using the thing as a network boot device, all working. Need to pair it up with a battery solution, and I was thinking the dimensions of the casing of the vocore2 ultimate, if extended, are around the size of a single cell 18650. Two thoughts I had with the unit, was either a detachable battery which clips into both the mini and usb ports, dunno how good it would hold on. Or extend the white casing and have some type of plug on the other end. Might be impossible due to this side of the case being the side you insert the device itself. But, any ideas? It doesn't need to be a full fledged UPS or anything, since I'm not using the SD card, I am using it cloud-based, and taking up 11mb of the flash.
@ParkMeduno 21 день тому
A question on the board comparison spreadsheet, the "Number" cell for 40, 41, 43, 44 and 45 are shaded green, what does it mean?
@AndreasSpiess 16 днів тому
I do not remember, so I took it away ;-)
@rondlh20 2 роки тому
Don't most/some Li-ion batteries have a chip onboard to protect the cell, wouldn't that solve the undervoltage protection issues you mention?
@DIYTechRepairs 2 роки тому
Other way around. Most lithium batteries dont have protecttion built in. Battery packs though often have bms or should have. But yeah a single well generally dont have it :)
@DIYTechRepairs 2 роки тому
@@the_perigoso not really. :) They are added after actually. Go to any shop that cells Them and they are in almost all cases without. IF you get batteries scrapped from 2nd hand they Always come with circuitry of course. :)
@Burgduino 2 роки тому
Li-Ion dont ... Lipo most of the times do
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
@Ron: Most of my single cells do not have protection, especially not the 18650s because the protected ones are slightly longer and do not fit everywhere. But you can buy cells with protection, of course.
@wjn777 2 роки тому
Nice overview. Pity that there seems to be no good choice out of these boards. I will stick with my Lolin D32 V1 for now
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The coice mproved considerably if you check the first lines of the table where many boards were in the mA range for deep sleep...
@jimmy21584 2 роки тому
Note for anyone considering the Wemo 8266 18650 module: it can only get down to 5mA in deep sleep, because the boost regulator is always active. So it’s no good for low power applications.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Thank you for sharing your experience. This was the case for most boards and a reason for my test videos...
@warlockd 2 роки тому
And the mouser updates and says they have the new RISCV ESP32-C3 version in:)
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
Very good!
@w-mwijnja8919 2 роки тому
For the battery measurement: Do all of these boards use a simple voltage divider, or are there some that use more sophisticated techniques? (like e.g. a MOSFET that turns the regulator on/off as a whole, or even techniques that add a capacitor on top for even less wasted current like jeelabs.org/2013/05/18/zero-power-measurement-part-2/index.html )?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I think I did not find any MOSFET switched voltage divider, The links to the diagrams are in the table if you want to check.
@christopherguy1217 2 роки тому
Would using a LiFePO4 battery make a difference? I assume you wouldn't need a LDO to regulate the voltage just a battery supervisor to shutdown at low voltages.
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
You still need an LDO - the max voltage on LiFePO4 is 3.6V - That could still cause issues depending on how the circuit is designed.
@sail4life 2 роки тому
I have a project running on a LiFePO4 cell. Very frustrating watching the voltage graph not change for months at a time! But it works very well.
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
@@sail4life Yeah you can do it.. just need to be careful. Same with using an 18650 on a board that is designed for a LiPo. 100% works, but you need to know what you are doing - no battery based protection (yes you can get those new fancy ones with protection, but 99% of the 18650s circulating have no protection) and you can cause havoc over or under charging an 18650 !
@sail4life 2 роки тому
@@UnexpectedMaker No worries, this is a LiFePO4 we're talking about here, nowhere near as dangerous as straight Li-ion, though under voltage or over charging is a sure way to kill a Li-anything.
@noweare1 2 роки тому
@@sail4life I would think thats a good thing.
@caiopedreira6643 2 роки тому
What about the Beetle ESP32 Microcontroller? It's expensive but it seems to be a great board.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
The beetle has no battery. Do you mean the Firebeetle? I thought I had it in a previous video.
@caiopedreira6643 2 роки тому
Andreas Spiess I mean the mini version of Firebeetle that looks like Bluno.
@caiopedreira6643 2 роки тому
Andreas Spiess apparently the Bluno Beetle became the DFRobot Beetle BLE - The Smallest Board Based on Arduino Uno with Bluetooth 4.0, but there's also the version with Arduino Leonardo and the one with ESP32.
@trylimits 2 роки тому
12:19 You measured a deep sleep current of 671µA for the EzSBC IoT board. In the comparison table the EzSBC is listed with 11µA deep sleep current. Which measurement is correct?
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I got an update of the software after the creator of the board saw the video...
@olaframge 2 роки тому
@@AndreasSpiess What does this mean? Which software was updated?
@aspuzling 2 роки тому
I did not even realise that undervolt protection was so important. That would explain why my ESP32 project has died and no longer charges up. Are there any Li-ion batteries that come with undervolt protection included?
@UnexpectedMaker 2 роки тому
I always recommend using batteries that have over and under voltage protection. The ones I use (from Adafruit) with the yellow Kapton on the top have both under and over and will cut-off below 3V to save the battery. The ones with red on top usually don't have protection.
@sail4life 2 роки тому
Yes, some can be ordered with a battery protection circuit built-in.
@aspuzling 2 роки тому
@@sail4life I know that batteries often come with over-current and over-voltage protection but do those circuits typically also include low voltage cut-offs?
@Burgduino 2 роки тому
the vast majority of Li-Po pouches have battery protection (OV-UV-OC).. the opposite goes for 18650s and similar cells which are not protected... many devkits are designed with Li-Po or protected cells in mind... battery protection can consume an extra 4-10uA from the battery when nothing else is powered...
@tengelgeer 2 роки тому
7:45 No, not the regulator. Place the capacitor as close as possible :) That is the buffer for the spikes, not the regulator. Yeah, you don't want the regulator miles away but you could have connected the regulator through the breadboard if you connected the cap to the ESP instead of the regulator. And for the caps, yes, polymer and tantalum are better than electrolytic. But you can also mix. A large electrolytic + small (even better performing) ceramic will do the job as well.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
It seems the regulator is more important than I thought. These current spikes are quite different to the usual ripple we see in other applications. They are about 5 times as high as the average. So the regulator also becomes involved because it is an active component and also reacts to this fast surge. The caps used on the boards are relatively small and still, some boards have a very good performance in preventing brownouts.
@Rob_65 2 роки тому
With respect to Li-ion batteries, I always use batteries with a built in protection circuit and suggest others to do the same. This not only protects the battery in case of a short circuit (max. current detection) but also makes sure that the battery is switched off when it is empty. It will also protect the battery against over-charging. So I would not be concerned about under voltage protection on the target board. Even for commercial products we never use batteries without a protection circuit - even if just to protect ourselves against any claims ... Large capacitors - especially the standard electrolytic caps - often have a large series resistance (ESR) which prevents them from delivering high currents. Going from 100 µF to 220, 470 or even 1,000 µF will not result in a 2, 5 or 10 times smaller voltage drop on high currents. Finally, never directly connect a solar panel to the input voltage pins. The open circuit voltage of a solar panel can be much higher than the rated voltage of the panel, especially when no power is being drawn from the panel. I would suggest to always use a special solar charger module like an LT3652 module. These modules have over voltage protection. But even (or especially) for smaller solar panels these have an advantage because they regulate the charge current such that the maximum available power from the solar panel is being used.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
1. I just learned that it is even forbidden to use undervoltage protection on the board because it would enable the usage of unprotected cells with all the dangers you mention. Unfortunately, must of my cells are unprotected and I assume it is the same with many other makers. But for sure it would be better to only use protected batteries. Unfortunately, the protected 18650 batteries are often too long and do not fit the holders :-( 2. I agree with your statement for capacitors. This is what I saw in my tests. 3. I always measure the open voltage of my cells in full sun and make sure it is inside the limitation. The cells I used did not go much over 7 volts. I made tests also with MPPT chargers but, with small panels they made no big difference. This is why I usually use a cheap TP4056. I agree with you for bigger panels where MPPT makes a difference.
@Rob_65 2 роки тому
1. I did not know this but it makes sense. A single A123 cell (LiFePo) can deliver up to 70 A when you create a short circuit but even simple 18650 cells can, depending on brand and type, deliver op to 30 A. As a comparison, I weld (TIG welding) aluminium and steel with currents as low as 40 A for a 1 mm sheet and that current is enough to melt the metal ... 3. I still need to setup a proper test for solar panels. Those lab tests and results are great but I need to compare systems with small solar panels to see if they will work under "normal" circumstances. I need to determine how much energy a solar panel delivers on a cloudy day/a sunny day/in full sun and then reproduce these situations such that I can truly compare different solar chargers (and possibly panels). I've been tinkering on this for months and now I have a real project where I need this to optimize some electronics I made for a solar powered artwork.
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I use a 1W solar panel for my ESP project and monitor the battery voltage. It survived the winter in Switzerland without going much below 4 volts. Deep-sleep period is 10 minutes.
@ats89117 2 роки тому
Thank you for this excellent video, but it is very disappointing to see that all the tested boards kind of suck... As far as the capacitor used to prevent the processor from crashing, it looks like it is due to a combination of ESR and ESL and for the ESP32 processor, a surface mount ceramic capacitor mounted close to the processor's power pins should be optimal. I would guess that with this configuration and a good LDO, you would need a lot less than 100uF to minimize the transients causing the problems. As you know, LDOs don't really like driving high capacitance loads, and their transient performance isn't necessarily improved by increasing the load capacitance to very high limits. It would be interesting to see if good performance was possible with 10 or even 4.7 or 2.2 uF...
@AndreasSpiess 2 роки тому
I agree with your conclusions. We have some examples to examine. Because the brownout detector of the ESP did the measurement in my test we know which board has which performance and we can have a look how the manufacturers solved the problem (we have all the diagrams). We even can see where they placed the caps on the PCB.
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