Which Shogun reigns supreme? Well, read and loved the book, loved the 80s series and have mixed feeling about the new version. I like it but it is too far from the original material and missing some great moments. Granted, there are some great moments here too, but for me, the original still reigns supreme!

And by the way, all the scenes that differ were invented for the new series. The original stuck close to the book. As for Ishido, his fate was even worse in the book: passersby were invited to saw his head with a bamboo saw!

Difficult Judgement. Overall I would recommend the current one more as the old one probably looks a bit silly and too colorful for a modern audience but the old version has aspects in which it is vastly superior. Richard Chamberlain being a Star would be one of them.

@1:24 "some boiled" no, it was only 1.

I still prefer the original miniseries. I enjoy getting more Toranaga in this one, but the original characters all loomed so larger than life. I liked the fact that the new show was able to embellish and flesh out details and events, but do much of the romance and intrigue felt lost on the new series. A narration would have been better, also, with the option to remove the subs and let the narrator summarize events, as in the original. Overall, I give the new series a B+, and the original gets an A. It would get an A+ but it IS a dated miniseries, in parts.

Yea orange would have been way too distracting in the modern version.

Only for a short period. Traditional priests came over and were like yo what u doing bro. Get dem blacks back on. Orange was short lived and wrong for the exact time period.... so computer told me.

Yes, that's true, but at the time the series takes place, the priests were back in their traditional clothing, so the new show is accurate.

@@EarJuice Actually, it was a specific individual of the senior Jesuits -- a man named Francisco Cabral -- showing up in Japan, and saying "nope, you're out of uniform." He reimposed the black cassocks.

Yeah. I found this VERY quickly in a Google search. No idea why the guy in the video couldn't.

Toshiro Mifune could intimidate an army with a glance.

@@Cryptonymicus He's definitely someone you would follow into Hell!

Richard Chambelain is difficult to replace in terms of charisma and presence, either. The new actor definitively had the lower ground...

If your ever thinking on wearing a man bun, ask yourself are you Toshiro Mifune. If the answer is no. Don't wear a man bun.

@@DanCThorpe 🤣🤣🤣

I know your not throwing shade at the 1980's version but I thought itt would be nice to point out that they didnt have internet in the 80's, atleast not like we do. The historical accuracy is because of time and more accessibility to historical documents.

Well said. His daughter even says it. He did much research but didn’t want to try to tell Japanese history. He fantasized about it and loved the culture he made his book and it a master piece. This 24 version was a Japanese point of view and Hiroyuki is a master of these types of Japanese film and knows the historical character very well. He’s done an amazing job acting and producing. Loved all versions.

@@matthewmob2860 yes she said he researched for two years before writing a word, but he always said he was to entertain first and was not an historian. Interesting character, PoW in the infamous Changi Prison in Singapore in WWII goes on to write a couple of books on Japan and quite a few on Asia itself.

​@@geoffmaloney2717 More than telling history I think Clavell tried to capture something more philosophical. Almost all his novels are about the clash of cultures, and finding a bridge in between, as well as survival under difficult circumstances. I think Clavell discovered more about human nature in those camps than any of us will ever know.

@@grandmufftwerkin9037 so well put

This. I watched it in the 80s and was totally captivated but rewatching it this year was painful due to reasons you mentioned. The production value of the 2024 version is 10/10.

I can recall people who watched the 80s series picking up bits of Japanese. Wakarimasu ka? Wakarimashita. It was weird watching the new series and still remembering some of the phrases.

@@todglenn2707 I agree. It was almost impossible NOT to learn some Japanese from the '80s version. But I don't know if it is just my hearing, but in the '24 version, were some pronounced differently? I wondered if that represented changes in Japanese pronunciation as a whole. I agree with @geofmaloney though. The earlier series had some pretty awful acting at times, and that fucking music! I thought the original Mirako was absolutely gorgeous, just a huge shame about her later 'career'.

@@davebox588 I couldn't follow the Japanese in the 2024 for the most part, whereas, like you said, in the 1980's versin, it was pretty impossible not to pick up some of the Japanese phrases.

@@keithyonick5023 I've read since that this later series uses Japanese as spoken at the time. That would explain it I think. Maybe just as Shakespearean English is different but understandable to modern English ears, so some Japanese words are the same while others were probably phrased or pronounced differently. Maybe a shame not to continue the Japanese lessons, but this series isn't really for purely Western ears. Historical research globally has moved so far in the last forty years and in these more globalised times people are often more interested in their history.

any day now.

Starring black lesbian Mariko who fells in love with gay Anjin with robotic arm.

@@ilkinsuleymanzad8252Anjin also needs to be enormously fat. Otherwise they/them would be excluding us fat people, and we’d be offended.

​@ilkinsuleymanzad8252 and people committing seppuku because they misgender someone

@@ilkinsuleymanzad8252 It´s 2024, dude. Why is live and let live such a big problem for guys like you? Don´t make your social anxiety a problem of everybody else. Accept that other people have different characteristics and the right to express them like you do and everything is fine. Life is to short to get angry about stuff that you can´t change. 10 people 11 styles of life. Live and let live. Easy!

yeah it's kinda hard to compare 2 things without reading the source material, you don't know which is doing things the correct way and which one is making the changes

Yessss! Finalmente. Also Nagakado is just Naga in the book, doesn’t die and is a most unpleasant young man to me. The episode with Jozen was … arghh

@@lucyshnyr5647 and "Ajiro" was "Anjiro"

Yabushige!!!

@@MilkoInsano yeah, with analysis like this, you need to: 1. be aware of what really happened (and that is already a huge task by itself, since we interpret historical figures differently than we used to 40 years ago) 2. read the book, that was based on the real events, and keep in mind the "creative differences" towards reality 3. watch the 80s show, and keep in mind the differences toward 1 & 2 4. watch the 2024 show, and not lose your mind with everything going on :D

The Japanese actors are incredible in 80s version. The guy who is forced to commit seppuko in the pit hits it out of the park.

That's the biggest change I noticed too even in the previews that the color palette of the 2024 version is very dark while the 80's version is much brighter. So both the look and the feel of the two versions are much different with the 1980 version more of an adventure romance story will the 2024 more of a political intrigue.

Would it be okay if I listened to the audiobook considering I have trouble reading at all let alone a book of that depth size and magnitude?,

@@AliAiham honestly I listened to it the first time on audible and it kept me hooked. I'm listening to it again right now.

Yes it is.. I've read the book a couple times and have listened to the audiobook a few times.

Totally agree!

Shogun 2024 is a typically mediocre production with very nice effects.

100% agree. In the 2024 version the sun never shined. Each day scene was mostly overcast or foggy. The characters were mostly violent, ignorant, or manipulative.

@@57palmtree That's because the 2024 version was filmed in British Columbia, where it's always raining, while the 1980 version was filmed in Japan.

@@artm1973 Humph!

But the point is the book is a novel. Not a non fiction book.

Explain please.

@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady well not really. The current version is BASED on the book. There were cultural mistakes and a very Westernised perspective. The Japanese characters were often extremely 2 dimensional. I've been saying for years that a remake was due. It would have been an awful waste to stick to Clavel's interpretation of 16th C Japanese culture. Background music aside, I really liked the '80s version, as well as the book. But this new version is a much better representation of the culture at that period (as far as I can tell).

@@colingoldie9173 Clavell developed a deep interest in Japan and the wider Asian world while a prisoner of war and from reading after that. He never was a historian in the modern sense and never claimed to be. He therefor made the central character an Englishman like himself acclimatising to Japanese culture. The events that he alludes to happened but aspects of the culture are necessarily missing. In this later version you only have to look at the credits to see how much they have tried to get everything right. There are advisors on clothing, kimono gesture, social contract, just about all aspects of 16th C Japanese culture are covered by experts in the field. Clavell's daughter spent two years in research before even starting to write. Consider also that the story is now how Toronaga uses Mariko and Blackthorne to win him Shogunship. We have the benefit of subtitles so we see how Mariko almost always mistranslates to achieve her Lord's wishes (I noticed also that she translates literally in her mediation between the paid courtesan Kiko, and Blackthorn. I put this to one side to contemplate later, but is she putting herself in Kiko's place for their encounter later? Maybe she uses Kiko's skillful description of the Japanese art of lovemaking so he understands it clearly.). The original book was groundbreaking and deserves its place as a masterpiece. You only really get at the subtleties if you reread and reread it. Most of that was missing in the original series, but jumps out in the later version.

@@davebox588 Remakes are almost never as good as the original. This was no exception. The acting was not as good.

it really didn't mini series is good as it is, there was no downtime in the 24 Shogun, it had u engaged whole time

Totally agree in terms of time. That's a huge problem. Personally I would have liked that they would tell the Story of the Tokugawa Ieyasu, then we would have material for several seasons. 😍 The "Shogun" story is just too short.

@@khal7702 Shogun 2024 didn't have me engaged the whole time because really I didn't find any of the characters to be at all appealing.

I agree, it should have been at least 15 episodes, that ending is just so fast.

They had time in the modern one, but they wasted it on adding fluff.

exactly!

Not sure if it was mistakes or he merely chose to omit them from his story. What I found interesting is the immense contrast in the interpretations both these movies illustrate from the same book.

In the book, Omi accepts that he can never have Kiku and rides off, finding himself freed from his obsession with her and open to wider horizons. Quoting from the book: "I bless Toranaga for releasing me from servitude. Now nothing binds me. Neither father nor mother nor Kiku. Now I can be patient too. I'm twenty-one, I'm almost daimyo of Izu, and I've a world to conquer."

We know that William Adams (John Blackthorns real life counter part) became trusted advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (the real life counterpart of Yoshi Torenaga) on all things outside of Japan. Adam’s also supervised the construction of several European style ships in Japan for Ieyasu.

@@AnonymousGamer546 Indeed. There also was another European gentleman who also became samurai and hatamoto under Ieyasu. The 2024 series specifically states that Toranaga is the regent charged w/ foreign policy leadership. I wonder how Ieyasu reacted to learning the entire text of the Saragosa Treaty? 200 years of Tokugawa rule would tend to indicate that they managed the situation closely.

Totally agree. When I saw the first trailer for the new version and saw that Mariko is now some kind of killer samurai warrior, I realized it would be a joke. The book (and all of Clavell's books) is excellent, and the 1980 film version respected that.

Should have used orange

@@steveyi2859 No they shouldn't. It was explained in the book, but the book was wrong. Or off anyway. They did use orange early one, but switched back to black by 1600

Japanese Monks don't usually wear orange, but mostly black unlike Chinese and Thais.

The new one was mostly filmed in Canada.

They used the scenery...of Canada...

Nah, the places they picked in Canada were perfect, they can serve as Japan. You say it looks "very dark"... have you been to Japan? I've been to Nagoya, a few years ago... the countryside can be preeeetty dark.

@@SCharlesDennicon lol, what a strange thing to say. Japan isn't darker than other places. It's not Greenland/Alaska/Iceland.

Vancouver shoot apparently

Well said. The source material is rich enough for multiple interpretations.

Agreed. What both versions didn't do was Ochiba's "disdain," for Toranaga because she was afraid he may have seen her pillowing a peasant who looked like The Taiko. She wanted to sire the son he wanted after the death of his first born. In truth Ochiba secretly desired Toranaga. Mariko never had a friendship back story with Ochiba nor were they acrimonious. In fact Ochiba was only slightly jealous of Mariko's talent as a poetess.

Perhaps, I dont remember very well, but what they did omit was that Mariko was the daugher of Akechi Jinsai, which IS in the book

I watched the 1980’s version after reading the book and again before I watched the current one. The biggest difference was the 1980’s was much more a love story with the current one more of a subtle inspection of the Japanese culture.

@@hueyslick291 Yeah, they definitely cranked up the romance for the '80 version. I think they turned it down so much for the '24 version that it almost doesn't make sense for Blackthorne to react as he does to her death.

They also changed the relationships. While the 24 version makes Kuroda (who was killed by Mariko's father) the father of Ochiba the historical Kuroda, being Oda Nobunaga, was not (if I remember correctly he was an uncle).

Frankly, I don't know why Blackthorn is in Shogun 2024. He doesn't seem to serve any purpose in Shogun 2024 unless you also know what he's done in Shogun 1980. A great deal of Shogun 2024 seems to rely on knowing Shogun 1980.

@@Cryptonymicus And I thought he was a complete dick in the 2024 version.

@@Cryptonymicus I don't see how you can say that when it's being lauded by people who have never seen the '80s version. '80s Blackthorn follows a very well trodden "hero" narrative (Man Called Horse", "Dances with Wolves" etc). A character foreign to a culture who goes through true hardship, a harsh trial of character, before ascending to the highest levels of that society. This later Blackthorn is less of that. He starts out brash and acquisitive before learning a series of lessons and becoming immersed in the culture. Notice the early Blackthorn speaking rapidly, often without thinking or the consequences of his actions. Then see his later self. Calmer, more measured. His journey leads us into an understand of the way Japanese culture worked, and in some ways works today.

They complet each other in showing more of the book, but the 80th version is way closer to it in it's story, structure and following Blackthorne.

@@jdpc9391 i agree they’re great counterparts… now that the 2024 series is done… I’m sad that there’s no more of it 😢 "Flowers are only flowers because they fall"

1980 Omi rocked! Both Yabu versions were excellent.

Considering the guy pissed on Blackthorne's back, it was quite generous of him.

In the book Blackthorne didn't give her to Omi, Toranaga had big plans for Kiku and Blackthorne.

@@artm1973 It's been so long since I read the book, I didn't remember that. Thanks for the heads up.

@@johnsteed9083 I thought it was a great moment in the miniseries though.

I’m with you there. The only thing I liked more in the 80s series than in the book is making Blackthorne blind instead of death after the explosion. That way, the burning of the ship with him slowly recovering sight is made more dramatic.

@@jp16k92 Yes! Me too! Temporarily blinding the Anjin-san made so much more sense in getting the story across. People forget that "reading" a story is experienced in a different part of the brain than "watching" a story. (When I finished reading the book, I felt a little lost for a few days. I missed being in Japan and following all of his adventures.)

So true. Fucking awful background music aside, the '80s version was a complete departure from most storytelling at the time. It misses most of the subtlety in the book, but still a good effort. In a nutshell, the '80s version is the story of Blackthorn helping Toronaga become Shogun. The '24 version is how Toronaga uses Blackthorn as one of his hawks to attain the same position. PS. that other Clavell film, Tai-Pan, needs remaking as well. The book is fascinating, while Australian Dan Brown affecting a Scottish accent for the film is laughable. Very little sense of place either.

If I can say James Clavell's daughter was a part of the script in the show. It will be good if in that energy Michaela Clavell can make a series about King Rat, Tai Pan or Gai Jin like a continue to the saga... until then I really loved the new adaptation of Shogun even if with in compare the 80's version was just legendary. But yeah I really hope this TV show get more viewers and hopefully it will get the needed appreciation from the audience.

I just watched the 80s version for the first time after watching the 2024 series, and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it (except for the music ,,,, ugh). I also just started reading the book. Each version offers something different to like. The 80s miniseries is told entirely from Blackthorne’s perspective and does a decent job portraying his transformation from an Englishman to Japanese samurai. Every time he faces what he thinks will be certain death - like following through on his threat of suicide because he didn’t want an entire village’s destruction on his conscience - it seems to be a pivotal moment for his character, with Mariko even telling him that he’s been “reborn” (I’ve not gotten that far in the book). What I like about the book so far is the amount of time given to the POVs of characters like Omi and Omi’s uncle, Yabu. I’m especially enjoying Yabu’s internal dialogue - despite his shady, sometimes cruel and sadistic behavior, there’s something about his POV that makes him a particularly engaging and fun character …a “glass is half full” kind of guy. And I can’t _not_ picture the 2024 actor who plays Yabu whenever he appears in the book. The same is true for the entire 2024 cast, and while I liked the 80s version of Blackthorne, I preferred Jarvis’s portrayal of him more than that of Richard Chamberlain, who I actually thought was miscast at times. I also appreciate the commitment to authenticity in the 2024 series, even down to how the extras would sit or carry themselves depending on the role & social status of their characters. As a weird aside, I was impressed by how the cast and extras, especially in the 80s version, were able to do all that repetitive kneeling on the ground, then rising, then kneeling, etc, in practically every scene, while also making it look graceful and effortless. As someone with a bad knee, I couldn’t help but cringe. Interestingly, in the 2024 version, there was less of that repetitive kneeling & rising, and more just sitting and staying on the ground, cross legged. One thing I didn’t like - Mariko’s ultimate fate. But I get why it had to be that way for the story’s conclusion to work.

@@cybele_mullejz Great observations IMO, and I agree. The book tells a lot more about each major character's inner thoughts and motivations, and I believe the '24 version is better at revealing those. Also you'll recall how right at the beginning of that later version that Toronaga is out hawking and describes how his hawk (presumably a peregrine) comes out of the Sun so the prey doesn't know it's there until it strikes. That's a perfect metaphor for Mariko, who is polite, subservant and contained until the moment she appears out of nowhere and her actions result in the disintegration of the Council of Regents who up to that point had been in broad agreement. In the book and '24 version it's clear that Mariko dies by her own actions (voluntarily standing in front of the door) and thus suffers a samurai death. That event is not so clear in the '80s version where it appears almost an accident that she's there. Not dissing the '80s version at all. I have watched it countless times over the years, but it was a series of its time and it would have been disappointing if the latest version hadn't done a better job.

Nothing goofy about Richard Chamberlain's dancing, of course.

Sake, neh?

@@stephenderry9488 Also an Englishman with an American accent...

@@sir-ok9gdwell their first choice was Sean Connery, he was interested but wouldn’t do regular television

@@sir-ok9gdWell they were all speaking Portuguese so what does that matter

They turned into a feminist story. It's boring.

They kept some scenes from the book but rushed them to the point of completelly missing their significance. Like Omi pissing on Blacthorne - in the book Blacthorne submits to humiliation to save his men, in 2024 he is physically subdued.

I havent read the book yet, so I was watching the 2024 series sort of like it was a standalone thing. Caring not about the show’s fidelity with the book but rather its narrative quality, I think Blackthorn committing seppuku at such an early stage of his development would not have made sense. The ultimate end-point of his development was to embrace Japanese culture, because he will never be going back to England. Blackthorn throughout the show demonstrated slow integration, starting off with the little things like minding his cleanliness and starting to adhere to Japanese rituals and practices. Then he started to understand the deeper culture of the Japanese people, why they’re so detail-minded and distant. Then he started to speak the language… idk where you saw him being just a “bumbling white dude”. Though luck was on his side, he still had to do a lot of things that took a lot of grit, tenacity, insight and some cunning to maneuver his way thru Japan’s weird bureaucracy, assimilation being one of them. But Sepuku has always been at the extreme end of Japanese culture, and at the beginning Blackthorn could not even accept that he may die in Japanese lands. It makes sense that only when Blackthorn is finally able to accept his fate in the Japans, he was willing to sacrifice his life for the village and die in a country that he once vowed to leave. It makes less sense if he was willing to do that mid-show, when he’s just barely able to understand why japanese people were so very willing to take their own lives away.

I agree with you completely. Blackthorn was almost an afterthought in this new version.

@@khylaldana2757 , if you read the book, you will understand that the changes in Blackthorne took place over the first 6 months as he was learning the language and the way of life around him.

I agree 100000%

Yes, yes and yes. A brilliant comment!

Why are you asking these questions under the video of some fan of the series who can hardly answer your questions instead of asking them to the producers or their public relations department?

Meanwhile his machinattions and own troubles are shown much better. Just wish they would have left him getting Kiku's contract from Blackthorne.

@@Fred_L. I suppose so. But the casting direction is still an odd one. After all, he is supposed to be like some sort of head samurai. To be kind of puny is a bit belittling considering his position of authority.

The difference being that in the new version, he _allows_ it rather than being the originator of the idea.

@@atticstattic Isn't it implied that he was the one who did it in the 2024 version as well?

@@talisa222 No, I think Mariko's deal with the Catholics for Blackthorne's life fit into his plans, so he allowed it to happen.

The 1980s miniseries was actually unsuccessful in Japan because audiences found it too dark and grotesque (with elements of condescension towards their culture.) But yes, I get what you mean (although at age 25, I'll admit I have more stomach for darkness, I just want it to be in service of something besides "Game of Thrones did it!") But 2024 makes a lot of changes for the negative- why change Blackthorne meeting his old crew and realizing he's on a different path to "Blackthorne beats up his drunk friend in an alley fight"?

Why Blackthorn's crew is in Shogun 2024 remains a mystery to me. You could cut them out and who would notice?

The '80s version was stunning! More pageantry, more character development, more historical context with respect to the geopolitics of the 1600s. The quality of the characters was levels higher. John Rhys-Davies as Vasco Rodriquez stole every scene he was in, the guy how played Father Alvito, had more screen presence and dignity. And, Toshiro Mifune as Lord Toranaga is priceless. The 2024 version was dark and brooding. The courtesans in the 2024 version were depicted as scrawny, scheming, manipulating females one level above rats. While in the book and 80's versions there shown as cultured beautiful women with intelligence. Kiko even rushes to Omi's wife when she arrives home to tell her what has transpired and to assure her Omi is well. The 2024 version is definitely a step down from the book and '80s miniseries.

Sweat and dirt doesn't necessarily make it more realistic. Cleanliness was a big deal back then. The notion that people didn't really wash in the past is a bit of a myth. Sure, the French didn't (jk), but other people surely did.

@@lsamoasome people think you can only clean yourself with a shower. No showers then: dirty stinky people. Also no washing machines...

@@lsamoa Blackthorne's crisp white shirt seemed to defy physics even after being kept in a stinking pit for days. As to washing, both both the '80s and '24 Blackthorns complain about washing twice in a week for fear of the flux. Let's be clear, initially even by rough camping standards, Blackthorn would have stunk.

The funny things about 24 version is that they purposely choose to do things either early in the morning, late afternoon, at sunset, or at night...which did not make sense. I assume people in the past would utilize daylight as much as they could....like who the hell would do seppuku at sunset? That would be tedious to do the cleaning later.

Look at Blackthorne's kimono in the new version. The colors are different but otherwise, it the same as the white and brown kimono worn by Chamberlain in the promo pics.

Liked 80s better little of everything better understood 2024 too much talking dark n hard to follow but ok

Yes, the actor playing Rodriquez/Gimli is called John Rhys-Davies. However, I also had to google the name because I didn't remember it. Either the video creator no longer knew the name and was too lazy to google it, or he assumed that viewers wouldn't be able to relate to the actor's name, but they would be able to relate to the name of the dwarf from Lord of the Rings.

I remember this as well.

Agreed. It would take a 22 episode series to cover the subtleties from the book. Maybe even two seasons to let the audience catch their breath.

Making it an 80s version… movies and shows are produced in different years all of the time, just because avatar 3 finished filming last year, it doesn’t mean anyone is going to claim it’s a 2023 movie. This series aired in 1980 making it an 80s version. Not that hard to comprehend.

@@zimvader25 Well since you want to be pedantic about it 1980 is still in the 70's until it ends. The next decade does not start till 1981 just like the millennium was not until 2001. So @samlanganke1262 was right. The more you know. 🤓

Mariko 2024 strikes me as a modern woman with a chip on her shoulder and when the actress is speaking English she sounds like an American. Not very convincing.

@@Cryptonymicus I enjoyed 2024 Mariko overall because the actress is gorgeous, talented, and the series is sensational, but the lack of Japanese accent when she speaks English is an issue for me too, as are her looks, because her beauty isn't stereotypically japanese. Unlike the actress who plays Fuji, for example. Boy I so wish we had more of her.

yes, she does not have the warmth and emotion of the original Mariko. Thanks for the observation.

That's exactly what I thought. The actress Anna Sawai has a very cool, modern appearance, almost arrogant. Given her past, Mariko would to have a differently character, like women in feudal Japan in general. They tried to write a strong female role and didn't realize what the real strength of the Mariko from the book was. Yoko Shimeda portrayed this perfectly in the 1980 series. Gentle on the outside but tough on the inside. This gave the dialogs with Anjin interesting moments. For the role of Mariko, I would have preferred Fumi Nikaidô (Ochiba No Kata). Anna Sawai Anna Sawai with her bossy Style would have been the bette fit for the Role from Ochiba No Kata. However, I also wonder why I never saw her as a Japanese.

What he didn't explain is that tv was 4:3 because that was cinema ratio...

Both were amazing. I felt the 80s was truer to Japanese mannerisms as well. Father Alvito in the 80s version had commanding presence. And I must say the women were hotter in the 80s version. But i do appreciate the story twist in modern version. Because I never felt like Toronaga was in much danger in original version. Where as I didn’t feel like Blackthorn was in much danger in modern one…or I didn’t care much because his personality sucked