The new Wi-Fi on 60GHz: 1Gbit/s throughput in each direction. How far will it go?
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День томуWe all know Wi-Fi. But do you know WiGig? Can you imagine what it is? Invented by Elon Musk, where everything is called “Giga”?
No, not really. Still, we will talk about Gigahertz and Gigabit per second. After the video, you will know the next frontier of Wi-Fi. As a bonus, I will tell you the story about why we do not need a license to use Wi-Fi. Spoiler: It is because of microwave ovens.
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@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Fascinating video about the details of the used chips: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/gnlqmqx4moShxZ8.htmlsi=J3PyQPMGsBvsu31g
@lii1Il 6 місяців тому
Would love to find a high res security camera that has an angle no less than 270 degree, but on the cheap. Any recommendations?
@juliusvalentinas 6 місяців тому
welcome to the cancer wifi, or no that was last gen, this is oxygen deprivation google it.
@djtopherau 6 місяців тому
My old workplace used the round 60ghz microtik dishes for PTP and PTMP connections for CCTV cameras over a large city municipality. They have a special view port that allows you to look down the dish for alignment. 2 points to make, so because of the way the transmissions work, its more akin to a donut or lobe then a laser, so sometimes pointing them exactly at each other actually means you don't have the best connection, and this is how the second point comes to play, the alignment stats that microtik supply are done by sending data through the link, they then check the power level based on beam forming from both sides, and work backwards to tell you how much correction you need to preform on each side.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for the clarification!
@UloPe 6 місяців тому
Those types of devices use beam forming array antennas, this is also how they can provide the alignment information.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good to know, thanks. My colleague took one appart and told me that they are covered with glue. So I did not want to destroy one just to see nothing ;-)
@meinsda5983 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess if Andreas tells me he want more infos about this system a defect one lay on my windowsill over a year before i open it and waste it.... two weeks before
@ahaveland 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess At 5 mm, there will be many antennae to form a phased array to create a directional wavefront, much like a starlink antenna, and there are a few teardowns of those on UKposts. How they can vary the phase differences for all the elements precisely by fractions of picoseconds to be able to do this is still a mystery.
@skinkie 6 місяців тому
@@ahaveland a memory buffer, linear algebra and an FPGA? ;-)
@dan-nutu 6 місяців тому
@@skinkie this would make for a very interesting video if you want to make one ;-)
@aaronpower8741 6 місяців тому
I use the Ubiquiti 60GHz long range links in my job. We get just under Gb (around 900Mb from memory) over 2.8km in a license-free radio that costs less then AUD $1,000 a pair. But he best thing is the lack of interference. Even if there are other other radios in the area, they use such a narrow beam that the interference would need to also be almost exactly in line to cause problems. They have been super stable and operating in a 24x7 industrial environment for about 2 years now. Love 'em.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for sharing your experience. I assume, you also have no snowfall in your area ;-)
@aaronpower8741 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess LOL. Plenty of 40C days, but no, not much snow. The link does hold up through some fairly heavy storms though. I expect the max throughput probably drops, but the link stays up.
@sureshkumarkp8802 6 місяців тому
Ah! I always learn something new whenever I watch your videos. This particular one taught me a lot of things I didn't know till now!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Great to hear!
@Rai_Te 6 місяців тому
Hi Andreas, as always highly informative and quite entertaining. Well done!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you!
@Taki7o7 6 місяців тому
Thanks for making our sunday so nice ♥
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
My pleasure!
@examen1996 6 місяців тому
One of the few people that still keep my interest in all things technology. Vielen Dank Hr Spiess!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Bitte, gern geschehen!
@remy44444 6 місяців тому
Amazing! Remind me the first days of the channel!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Glad to hear that!
@Wirelessinfopuntbe 6 місяців тому
A great video Andreas. This is awesome. Greatings Jean-Pierre
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thanks for your support! Without you, I would have had a lot of problems!
@stepheneyles2198 6 місяців тому
That's amazing! Thank you for explaining them and the way they operate. Unfortunately I haven't got an application for them at present, but at least I know about them now! 😊 Edit: it would be nice if they had allen screws on the mounts to make alignment easier.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I asssume that every cent counted when they built this (relatively cheap) product...
@1globe 6 місяців тому
Great episode and a new technology for me. Opens territory and is a bit mind-boggling, actually! 👏👍
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thanks!
@rickb3288 5 місяців тому
Great job Andreas. Though I was a network engineer in the distant past, I was not familiar with the tech of today. Thanks for creating this presentation.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
You are welcome! Indeed, things move fast in the direction of higher frequencies...
@Chris-ut6eq 6 місяців тому
Thank you for all the great information!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
My pleasure!
@matthewfelgate 6 місяців тому
Thanks for sharing this video because it was informative.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
You are welcome!
@XRinger 6 місяців тому
Back in the old days, at the MIT Antenna Test Range, we used rifle Scopes attached to our test antennas. mostly between 10 and 30 GHz. These days, people use red dot sights made for weapons, to aim telescopes at stars or planets they want to see using the telescope. A red dot sight is much smaller than a rifle scope and is useful at night and day. If it's got auto-off, the battery lasts for years. The X and Y adjustments on a scope and RDS allow for calibration.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I remember this red dot thing mounted on a rifle from when I was in the Lebanon war zone in 1982 working for the red cross... I am sure it would be better than a standard binocular.
@veryboringname. 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Your past life sounds interesting! You should make a video about it some day.
@wizardy6267 6 місяців тому
very interesting topic, thanks for your knowledge sharing.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
My pleasure!
@utubota5522 5 місяців тому
Thanks, this was great info, and i already have a project in mind.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
Glad it was helpful!
@Francois_Dupont 6 місяців тому
Thank you! as always i learn alot of things.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Glad to hear it!
@williamwatson1532 6 місяців тому
Super video, Adreas. I had no idea this next step up wifi😅 technology already existed.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
It was the same here. That was the reason I made this video.
@meinsda5983 6 місяців тому
60GHz technology is for outdoor ptp use only. Not useable for broadcast systems. You must see your client on the other side.
@GeoffHou 6 місяців тому
Thanks for this info. I knew about the Ubiquiti airfiber and airmax products but even the airmax products with a similar range are almost double the price. They might use different antennas however.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed, Ubiquity sells similar products (I thought, I mentioned it, but I am not sure). Mikrotik in general operates at a very good price point. This is why I use their gear.
@UloPe 6 місяців тому
The ubiquity gigabeam range is in a similar price bracket though
@James_Knott 6 місяців тому
Years ago, I used to work with DragonWave equipment, which was available for both licensed and unlicensed bands. I also did some work with Ceragon unlicensed gear.
@electronichome1153 6 місяців тому
Many thansk for the great topic and explanation
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
You are welcome!
@jakedillingham 6 місяців тому
That was fantastic, thank you so much that’s really interesting!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Glad you enjoyed it!
@ulrikhy-petersen6982 3 місяці тому
Great video for starters. We just purchased a set and depending on the experiences we will proceed and try out the Cube SA 60Pro that can provide Point-to-Multipoint connection with of to 8 units of the ac units. Interesting technology.
@AndreasSpiess 3 місяці тому
Its opening angle is quite small for bigger distances. But it works!
@andrewcox-in-aus 6 місяців тому
The radios that MikroTik puts in their 60GHz devices have a small (16x16 I believe?) beamforming antenna array which it cycles through positions for. You can see more info on what 'sector' of the antenna is in use in the screen you were looking at (or by using in terminal "/interface w60 monitor ") but this is in short, how the recommended direction is given in the winbox UI
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thanks for the additional info. You are right. I included a link to a video that is showing all the details of the design.
@MegaCyklops 6 місяців тому
You are allowed to use Ch5&6 in the CEPT/EU, the vendors are just too lazy to update it. I've got it on paper that i'm allowed to use the band up to 71Ghz from our regulator because of an EU regulation.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good to know, thanks! Maybe you post a search string that leads to this document? (UKposts deletes comments with links)
@dan-nutu 6 місяців тому
It sounds like Lisa might have correspondence from the regulator, e.g. a letter with a response for her. Just a guess, I could be way wrong
@johannes9386 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiessSearch: COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING DECISION (EU) 2022/180 Apart from the fact that 57 to 71GHz are listed here, this is a very interesting document.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
@@johannes9386 Thank you for the link!
@Openspeedtest 6 місяців тому
Very informative.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you!
@wjn777 6 місяців тому
Very interesting video and thank you for sharing
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Glad you enjoyed it!
@richard_wenner 6 місяців тому
Stunning how quickly technology is developing but it also caused me consider WHO I could trust to reposition the remote end for me. Just musing.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
A valid point. Particularly for me without friends and wife ;-)
@RobertJochim 6 місяців тому
Some AREDN (Amateur Radio Emergency Data Network) installations are already utilizing MikroTik 60 GHz radios here in the US. 🙂
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good to know. Are these Cubes already supported? I did not know that.
@TheMason76 6 місяців тому
Danke für dieses schöne Video. Echt schön gemacht. Danke "Guy wis se swiss aksend" 🙂
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Gern geschehen!
@RXP91 5 місяців тому
Excellent vid and information thanks! I've always been interested in hooking up two separate houses via a wireless link. In 2023 though with the new operators providing fiber to the home I now have 1gbps upload and my desire for doing it has massively reduced cause the speed between internet connections is so great.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
Indeed, fiber is a very good technology (I am still waiting for it).
@Guishan_Lingyou 4 місяці тому
My neighbor has been generously allowing me to use his WiFi for quite a long time. When fiber arrives in my neighborhood I will get my own service and offer to return the favor to my neighbor. Something like the units featured in this video might be helpful.
@klassichd10 6 місяців тому
Thanks very much! Interesting 60GHz for home use. 77GHz is now common for automotive radars.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
You are welcome! I assume that because of the 77GHz chips for cars, this 60GHz tech became affortable...
@meinsda5983 6 місяців тому
60GHz is not useable for home use! every wall has to much damping. 60GHz is realy for a ptp system. Yes you can use it with more then one client but in the configuration you have a ptp
@klassichd10 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Probably yes. These helpful devices are produced in large quantities.
@klassichd10 6 місяців тому
@@meinsda5983 For me, home use is not identical to indoor use.
@user-ui8jt6cx2k 6 місяців тому
For good alignment one could use mirrors (you can see yourself in a mirror) and self printed targets, you could also use a "Prisma Reflektor" which is a device with a certain mirror assembly being able to reflect all light back into the same direction of origin. A semitranslucent mirror assembly also known as a beam splitter also helps,
@railgap 6 місяців тому
You mean retroreflector, and they are the opposite of what you want when aligning anything.
@WagonLoads 6 місяців тому
Isn't that a corner cube? Wouldn't a bike reflector do that? You could see when you hit the reflector with a laser. You just need alignment screws to align the laser with the antenna after the antennas are originally aligned for max signal strength(The same way the viewfinder scope is aligned with the main telescope).., then the laser will guide on all future alignments..
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I do not understand exacly. But if you need to leave the second device unattended in the woods, I am out ;-)
@WagonLoads 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess IN your video, you had one antenna in your window. and you setup the remote end next to a park bench... If there is a post near the bench, put a bike reflector on the post at the same height the antenna would be on your tripod. If there is no post, maybe you can mount the reflector on the end of the park bench.. Aim your home unit at the (post/bench) reflector, then when you get to the park, put your tripod antenna reflector in the path of the beam that is hitting the post.. Then aim the park antenna laser at the home reflector..
@Alan_Stinchcombe 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiessTry up a tree? 😅
@silverian 6 місяців тому
Thank You for Wi-fi 60GHz knowledge!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
You are welcome!
@AndreasDelleske 6 місяців тому
Fascinating!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed!
@Zeusbeer 6 місяців тому
This also sounds interesting for short range applications, for something like a VR headset wireless link
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree. Because these devices seem to produce quite some data rate...
@meinsda5983 6 місяців тому
yes they use them for VR headsets but it is only useable for one room!
@Zeusbeer 6 місяців тому
@@meinsda5983 thats ok
@glasslinger 6 місяців тому
@@meinsda5983 Until a fat guy walks between you and the transmitter! :)
@meanxmeanx1763 6 місяців тому
Regarding the angle measurement, it can use some UWB trick i.e. it checks the difference in time at which the signal is reaching the different antennas. 2 antennas = flat angle, 4 antennas = elevation + angle.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I added a link to "The Signal Path" where he shows the internals of the design.
@benverdel3073 6 місяців тому
A very interresting product. Because of the small outline it should stay stable in high winds. As you live in Der Schweiz. Maybe one of your watch makers can manufacture a nice Yagi antenna for it (hihi). Still wondering though if ig could scramble speed radars. That'd be fun. Looking forward to your next video.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I assume the speed radars do not work in the ISM bands...
@originalmianos 6 місяців тому
How cool is MikroTik. Real European stuff from Latvia and incredible value for money. I have a few of their RouterOS devices and the are insanely functional. At least 100 pages of menus yet you don't even use the UI for the complex stuff. The command line stuff is crazy like a Cisco core router. Interesting to note that some of those CIA exploits leaked had RouterOS exploits, probably targetting Russia as they don't trust the equipment with firmware from the US of A. (All the exploits listed were closed as soon as they saw them).
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed, routerOS is very capable. I standardized on Mikrotik because my knowhow is re-usable for many different devices...
@VitaliySunny 6 місяців тому
I am the owner of a pair of Ubiquiti AF-60 (not the long range version), I have been using PtP for 2.5 years, the flight is excellent. Connects to 60 GHz, has a 5 GHz link for antenna communication. With correct installation and position settings, the speed reaches maximum for this equipment - 930-950 Mbit/s (ping 1-3 ms, duplex, sunny day, 600 meters, line of sight). During rain or heavy snow, speed drops slightly. I have never encountered such weather conditions under which communication would be completely lost. I had about 3 years of experience with Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M2, but 2.4 Ghz and wide antenna angle did not suit for me, otherwise PtP equipment is wonderful.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@Krakkel 6 місяців тому
MikroTik makes some really good equipment
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree
@favesongslist 6 місяців тому
This may be a good project to add servos, similar to the Starlink receivers to enable to seek for the best connectivity.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Probably not so easy. Elons satellites move in defined circles. I move wherever I want with my second station ;-)
@favesongslist 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess As long as it is roughly in the right direction to home in to the best strength for the 5.4 Channels it may be possible to give a fair coverage angle for the WiGig signal?
@anoknskyle2243 5 місяців тому
If I'm not mistaken, Ubiquiti sells "Wave" brand 60 GHz gear in the EU which works on channels 5 and 6. They claim a maximum range of up to 12 km on channel 6 with their highest-gain equipment (the Wave LR, I think). Maybe if you want to test higher channel performance, you could use a pair of those?
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
Thank you for your information. Another commenter wrote that channels 5 and 6 are also allowed in the EU now. But I am not sure.
@jacquesmertens3369 6 місяців тому
This video doesn't have a cat in it to confirm the scientific results. But it's fascinating technology. Thanks for sharing.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Great point!
@Akash.Chopra 5 місяців тому
Great info, thank you! The range of 6ghz is less than half of 2.4ghz when using a shared antenna. I cant imagine how low the range is with 60ghz, unless you use a much, much larger antenna. That said, I get more than 1.2gbps down as well as up on my 6ghz router, albiet with a much smaller range than 2.4ghz.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
The 60GHz antennas are much smaller for th same performance, fortunately. Still, you saw how far it goes. Not like 5.8GHz where we bridge 50km...
@nutsnproud6932 6 місяців тому
My local supermarket uses something similar. There is a petrol station 400m from the main building and they use a radio microwave link so the petrol pumps can authorise your credit card.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Well possible. It is a perfect use case for such technology.
@Ownedyou 6 місяців тому
Love it! Dishka didn't feel like helping out with the aligment?
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
She was too tired and slept the whole day. She only was interested when she got caressed ;-)
@AlexanderMeier-iw7bz 6 місяців тому
#FavoriteEpisode Learned more of frequency, bandwidth, and technology including but not limited to bandwidth formula. Question: Please, which sofware program used to measure "correct aim alignment of signal" ?
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
All the needed software is built-in in Mikrotiks (free) winbox management software.
@XAirForce 2 місяці тому
Thanks!
@AndreasSpiess 2 місяці тому
Thank you for your support!
@jmr 6 місяців тому
900mhz was my first wireless network. Not ideal for speed but back then before WiFi it was still very cool.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
900MHz still has some advantages over the higher frequencies. It seems it better travels across water than higher frequencies. At least this is what HAM radio operators found out when they wanted to steer remote stations on an ismland from a ship...
@jmr 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Very true and it has been added to the WiFi standard in the form of HaLow. I don't think it's going to become commonplace because of ZigBee, LoRa and Thread. Too much competition there.
@James_Knott 6 місяців тому
I also remember when infrared was going to be used for wireless. Many notebook computers came with it. One thing I recall, from my work at IBM, was that IBM ThinkPads supported twice the data rate of Toshiba computers. 🙂
@jmr 6 місяців тому
@@James_Knott It's funny because everything old is new again. Have you heard of LiFi? I really wish we still had IR transmitters in phones. It was a nice feature.
@James_Knott 6 місяців тому
@@jmr Yes, I have heard of LiFi. While I don't recall IR in phones, I certainly to in notebook computers. Back in the late 90s, I worked at IBM Canada, doing 3rd level support and most of my work was on ThinkPads. One product I supported was the software for doing presentations. The presenter would have a remote that used IR to control their presentation. Back then, USB was just getting started and WiFi was still pre 802.11b legacy.
@veryboringname. 6 місяців тому
It's amusing how many youtubers have to hide their home address from the internet to avoid weirdos showing up while on the other hand you don't mind directly showing us your location on google maps. You've got a much nicer community here!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed, the community here is outstanding!
@BerndFelsche 6 місяців тому
With good sky, GPS and compass ought to work well for an initial alignment.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Also a possibility. Because it has to be line of sight, and the "cube" design, a binocular was a quick and easy solution.
@petittoto7433 6 місяців тому
13:05 Correction : "I tested it but living in Switzerland I cannot tell you the result" 🙂
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
:-))
@dasgibmekker768 6 місяців тому
That's what I heard, too... 😂
@ralphj4012 6 місяців тому
Interesting. As well as alignment, I wonder whether there are any fresnel zone effects (I did briefly scan the manual and couldn't see any suggested minimum height above ground).
@Francois_Dupont 6 місяців тому
all RF link will have a freshnel zone, but like he said: if the signal is 5cm or something the fresnel zone might only be 1m big.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree with @hitachi088
@azbesthu 2 місяці тому
I just ordered an old 18260NGW E-key card, just to be able to test my m.2 E slots if they have 2 x1 pcie lane. Only a few card utilitize both x1 lanes, some WiGig cards and the dual corel accelerator card.
@RicardoLescano 6 місяців тому
interesante util mas cuando estamos del otro lado del planeta gracias!!!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed!
@clairettedelportr1476 6 місяців тому
Hi Andreas, I do love your videos. What about high side switch/fuse, ie Infineon BTS50010-1TAD one ? Regards
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I do not know this product :-(
@clairettedelportr1476 6 місяців тому
@AndreasSpiess they seem to be a great solution to replace relays, able to manage about 30A high side in automotive (positive, solving grounding problems) and to mesure current at the same time, shorting and temperature protected. I just discovered them, they're probably recent
@nerdwerx2292 6 місяців тому
In the Spring of 2001 ,there was a company based in Seattle WA that had a Terabit Ethernet or TbE system that worked off of the lightwave portion of the Electromagnetic Spectrum.The company was in a downtown highrise and had different receiving stations in various Line of Sight configurations.The CEO demonstrated with a paper plate,that the system could still operate, without any throughput interference.I wonder what ever happened to them? 🤔
@glasslinger 6 місяців тому
In jail for fraud.
@PhG1961 6 місяців тому
Amazing product and at a very afordable price! Where is this going to... ;) How convenient a refering video in Dutch...
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I think, this was the first video in Duch language I ever watched till the end ;-)
@PhG1961 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Lol, but I guess you noticed there are some similarities with German !
6 місяців тому
Hi, nice video I finally found out why were chosen 2.4 and 60GHz frequencies. Could you also focus on the opposite side of IEEE 802.11? I am facing vegetation on small distance (600m), I was thinking about WiFi HaLow 802.11ah (sub gigahertz wifi). You can buy it is aliexpress, but I don't know how it is compliance with EU usage...
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
HaLow is only interesting in the US because their 900 MHz band is much wider than the 868 MHz band in Europe. So I have no plans to cover it.
@dan-nutu 6 місяців тому
The video was definitely interesting (thanks!) and as a bonus it also had a couple of unexpected jokes thrown in :) 3:48 "Oxygen still has its high absorption" 7:52 "It is in Dutch but you should be able to follow it" In the same vein I'd add: 10:07 "Use binoculars for an initial setup and and place once person at each station to do the small adjustments" - and be prepared to yell pretty hard if you don't already have another means of radio communication working in that place :) 4:50 Just like you also said towards the end of the clip (12:44) I guess "channel 5 support" is if the country you use this in allows channel 5 to be used in addition to channels 1-4 (5:50), maybe to do channel bonding and increase bandwidth.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thanks for the compliment for my jokes :-) Concerning channel bonding. I assume they can transfer much more in one 2.1GHz channel (these are only the first implementations). So channel bonding will not be needed for a long time
@LackofFaithify 5 місяців тому
Another good helper to line these types of equipment is a high power green laser pointer. Tape it down and on, then do a quick trip to the other end, find the dot, and there ya go.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
Thank you for the info!
@user-bn8xh4gm2h 4 місяці тому
hi andreas, nice video, the antennas are already pre-configured right? you don't need to do anything just connect them?
@AndreasSpiess 4 місяці тому
No, mine were not. This is why I left a link to a video where it is shown.
@Thesignalpath 6 місяців тому
On my channel you can find a complete teardown, theory of operation as well as a look at the integrated circuits which accomplish the beam-steering functions. I'd provide the link, but UKposts seems to remove them.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Very good! I am a Patreon on your channel, so you can send me the link there and I will post it in the description.
@Thesignalpath 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you, I appreciate your support of the channel and glad to see that your presence on UKposts has continued to grow! The name of the episode on my channel is: "TSP #207 - Teardown & Detailed Analysis of Qualcomm's 60GHz Multi-Panel Phased Array WiGig System". Hopefully that is easy to find.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
@@Thesignalpath I watched it now and left a link in my video description. A very informative video (as always). Last year, 60GHz was probably above my interest ;-)
@supportitservices6349 4 місяці тому
Thanks
@AndreasSpiess 4 місяці тому
You are welcome!
@TurpInTexas 6 місяців тому
I have a workshop behind my house and wanted high speed internet access. Thought about installing a fiber but decided to go with an EnGenius 5Ghz system to start with. As the hop distance was only about 75 feet, the receivers on both ends suffered from overloading (-17dBm) the the through rate was very poor, around 5 to 6 Mb. I covered one link with a metal mesh cloth which attenuated the sigal to around -60dBm) and the through rate improved dramatically to around 300Mb. As I use both 2.4 and 5GHz on my home wifi system, the 5GHz link caused some issues so I decided to switch over to a Ubiquiti 60GHz system, each unit running around $100 US. Install was quick since I could reuse the wiring, so only had to swap out the units. Data rates now are cover 800Mb consistently and no more interference issues.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for sharing your experience. I think, yours is a very good use case.
@hi-tech-guy-1823 6 місяців тому
Wasn't just microwaves but aslo a Few High-intensity discharge lamps like to Scream RF Noise also in the 2.0Ghz Range
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for the info!
@simskog95 6 місяців тому
802.11ay should deliver up to 40Gb/s per channel on 60GHz. But the standard is new and there are no devices that suports it.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good th onow. I also assume that the pricepoint of faster devices would be higher (and much less interesting for most of us).
@markshade8398 5 місяців тому
I expect these are VERY directional. Meaning, aim and line of sight will be critical. Even just a tiny bit off on the aim and the speed/quality will go down quickly.
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
You are right!
@ehsnils 6 місяців тому
We run a 60GHz link at work since about 2 years and it's about 1km, and it works reasonably well - until it starts to snow heavily.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good to know. Thanks for sharing your experience!
@vladimirmihajlovic1504 6 місяців тому
Equation shown on 1:30 is actually wrong. Channel capacity is determined by Shannon-Hartley theorem, which states Cs = B * log2(1 + S/N), where Cs - channel capacity, B - bandwidth, S/N - ratio of signal to noise. Given efficient modulation this can be rewritten as Cs = B * log2(M), where M is number of states during single time period (T = 1/(2B)). So, there is no factor 2. Nyquist theorem does play a role in the S-H derivation, and term 2 does appear at one point, but it is cancelled out by Cs per symbol which is Cs = 1/2 log2(1 + S/N). Full derivation for Cs is a bit involved for YT comment. In short it is grounded in probability theory - Cs is maximum mutual information for given signal level and additive white gausian noise (with given variance/power for AWGN).
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Thank you for your explanation. I learned these things long-time ago and forgot them. This is why I added the source of the formula. Now we can complain there. However, my statement, fortunately, is still supported by your formula.
@vladimirmihajlovic1504 6 місяців тому
Thank You for the wonderful content (and this response). Videos are very well thought out and informative. Keep up great work. I forget these things as well, but by coincidence I did go through this specific derivation recently as I was brushing up my knowledge of prob theory. Link provided in the video simply leads to university site, if you could provide specific link I'll take a look. Discrepancy is in the factor if 2 I believe.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
@@vladimirmihajlovic1504 I cannot post links here. But you should find it if you google "Noise, Data Rate and Frequency Bandwidth"
@vladimirmihajlovic1504 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Just read the page (Morikawa) - and I am afraid that (from formal perspective) its reasoning line is flawed in more than one way. But most obviously -- it fails to apply the very formula that is established at the start of page (Cs = 2B log2 M) in Example 3 (right after "Answer: " line). There you'll see the line stating Cs = B log2 M. It omits the factor 2 by mistake and gets two formulas to agree (while they don't).
@AaaBbb-bc4hq 3 місяці тому
suggests adding an offset dish antenna and keeping your head away from the main beam :)
@AndreasSpiess 3 місяці тому
I like that these antennas are so small. But no worries, I will not hurt myself ;-)
@spicybaguette7706 6 місяців тому
Honestly, with the amount of challenges its a technological wonder that wifi functions as well as it does. But I'm guessing mobile networks like LTE and 5G are more capable due to reduced interference on the commercial bands
@James_Knott 6 місяців тому
The cell networks are also on licensed bands, which means you can't just fire up a transmitter on your own. Yeah, I know they also can operate on the 5 GHz unlicensed band.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Indeed, in the licensed bands authorities have to guarantee that there are no interferences. This is why there is hard punishment for people emitting radio singals in most countries.
@dieterjosef 6 місяців тому
Ver interesting video although way above my technical understanding. If you need direct view to the other point wouldn't an optical connection not even better? I have seen some projects about this, and Li-Fi is said to be the next big thing (since about ten years or so) but I think you could connect rhe technic that is already there and make it workable. Some guys had one gigabit wirh light but thw did not really explain how they did it.
@mrfrenzy. 6 місяців тому
Optical connections are much more sensitive to weather.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I never saw optical systems in such use cases. A laser beam is probably way too hard to align and keep aligned for such distances.
@dieterjosef 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess This device that is derived from the mechanics in the James Webb Teleskope could be used for aligning laser and receiver over a long distance because it combines länger and very fine movements. You can skip the first minutes until he shows his 3d printed device and explaines it. ukposts.info/have/v-deo/bX2pfGeqnYB9o4U.htmlsi=hXpYNpgLRAKyIZI-
@dcx45 6 місяців тому
I need a 30 second version of the video :)
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
So you have to create one ;-)
@markarca6360 6 місяців тому
Technically it is IEEE 802.11ad and/or 802.11ay. The decrease in the actual bandwidth is due to the rain fade, as well as the distance between the two radios.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree with your analysis.
@chuxxsss 6 місяців тому
Two small bits of gold today, Andreas. Invented at the CSIRO here in Australia. I need a set for me shed, mate, who sell these please.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Congratulations!
@ruben_balea 6 місяців тому
Idra called its largest presses Giga Press and it simply coincided that Tesla bought the first unit they manufactured, but they are called Giga Press or GigaPress regardless of the customer, there are several car brands that use them. But you can be sure Elon loved that name!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I heard the story the other way round: Elon asked a few manufacturers for extremely stong and large presses and only Idra answered. Maybe only rumors.
@brylozketrzyn 6 місяців тому
First pre-standard devices actually used 915MHz band in NA but they were slow
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
Good to know. Unfortunately, the 900MHz band in Europe is not ISM. Our 868 band is too narrow to be used for Wi-Fi...
@Valenorious 6 місяців тому
For aligning the 60Ghz antennas, they have a cube/rectangular box enclosure, right? Can't you look along the side of the enclosure (or that hood above it) and aim it until the site is no longer obscured by it. And do that again along the top edge of the enclosure. The back to front length is around 10 cm if I read the specs correct. Then for 11 degrees alignment margin you get a slope of .19, or the line of sight along the box should be within 2 cm from the front edge of the enclosure.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
1.5km was too far for my eyes. This is why I had to use a binocular.
@zaprodk 6 місяців тому
They use beam steering technology, and that is how it can show you how to align the antenna.
@ehsnils 6 місяців тому
From what I understand the antenna actually has a matrix of small antennas on a chip, but I haven't taken one apart to see. My experience is with the Mikrotik Wireless Wire nRAY which I think works pretty well.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I added a link to a video from "The Signal Path" where he tears everything apart and explains the details.
@SandroLuccini 6 місяців тому
Hello Andreas, good video! Do you need the devices or could you sell them? Bye from Bellinzona
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I do not need them for the moment.
@StringerNews1 6 місяців тому
Thanks, Giga Chad!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
:-)
@TonyFarley-gi2cv 5 місяців тому
On one minute 12 seconds it's showing the log That's like a boot log not established with the correct name because they're not able to load in correctly so ultimately they start dropping other people's names behind the screen and start feeling in other peoples while you're working on it
@IMBlakeley 6 місяців тому
I put in a few 5.8ghz links for a few customers 1km was fine had one customer wanted 10km far to much interference only worked with the power well above the legal limit.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
HAM radio operators operate many 5.8GHz links wewll above 10km using standard gear (Google "hamnet") But we use only lower-speed channels.
@IMBlakeley 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess This was in Indonesia, very crowded band and not helped by many AP being active in the wrong part of the band.
@ovalwingnut 6 місяців тому
ShOcK & AWE Cheers from So.Calif,USA, 3rd House On the Right :O)
@hagei406 6 місяців тому
We have such a link , airfibre from ubiquiti , ran for a couple of years failure free 1.5 KM between 2 companies from 2014 to, afaik, 2019. Well that one was more more pricy and very high power consumption
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I was not aware that they were already available in 2014. For sure, this was a new tech back then with high price and high power consumtion. Still, it solved youir problem!
@xcruell 6 місяців тому
I can already feel the cancer cells growing inside my whole body, just by thinking about it.
@flexairz 6 місяців тому
No they won't. Radio spectrum is non-ionizing radiation. You have a greater chance for cancer by sitting in the sun light. Physics my friend.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
No worries. I am still alive...
@xcruell 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess Gott sei Dank!
@dave_dennis 6 місяців тому
I know it’s not for the average user. They would have little interest. I however would love to see you doing the math and the calculation of the link budget. Maybe a short supplemental video for your Patreon supporters.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I made a few videos where I covered the link budget. It is simple if you know the attenuation of the different parts, the output power, and the sensitivity of the receiver. However, in this case, these values are not public. So the only way is to test it. A good page to calculate link budgets is "radio mobile online" (youtube deletes comments with links). If you are a Patreon, you can ask me via a patreon message
@Syncere20 5 місяців тому
I live in Florida where there could be a lightning storm 2 miles away but Sunny where I'm at I wonder if this would affect the performance of that unit
@AndreasSpiess 5 місяців тому
Heavy rain seems to reduce the possible range. Winds not.
@LeifNelandDk 6 місяців тому
They should add an output for servo motors to adjust the alignment.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I assume that most of these devices are used in a stationary setup. So the alignment only has to be done once.
@LeifNelandDk 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess naturally, a motorhead would be optional, so temporary links would be quick to set up.
@sativagirl1885 6 місяців тому
Q: Can the two devices 'sight' each other and auto-focus for best signal strength?
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I did not experience such behavior
@favesongslist 6 місяців тому
I guess they would need servos just like the Starlink receivers seek for the best connectivity.
@plenus7392 Місяць тому
Using 5.8 with mikrotik proprietary wireless protocols we reach gigabit on PTP links at 5-8km 27dbi dishes
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Very fast! We also use such gear for long distance connectons, but with a smaller bandwidth.
@plenus7392 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess oh! I was not expecting a response, thank you for taking the time, you probably already know, but the least I can do is gift a tip: self-fusing tape on outdoor coaxial joints or wire splicing, this stuff is magic, weather resistant, waterproof, and crazy electrical insulation, but don't expect to remove it, because it almost solders itself hahaha, cheers from BR 🇧🇷🙏
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
@@plenus7392 I anser all comments ;-) And thanks for the tip. I am a HAM radio operator, and we use these tapes all the time. BTW: If you google AREDN (or watch my second HAM radio channel) you see where we use these 5.8GHz links.
@lindapule1532 6 місяців тому
@AndreasSpiess i would like to extend wifi in a building with 26floors using the service elevator tunnel since the elevator is nolonger in use i am getting access on the 1st floor can i use these devices to extend the wifi by mounting 1 at the bottom of the elevetor tunnel and the other at the top of the tunnel,or should i use the ubiquit nano beams?
@mrfrenzy. 6 місяців тому
Nanobeam would be a better choice for indoors, or you could just drop down 100m ethernet cable.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree. 2 nanobeams or Mikrotik SXTsq 5 acs should work. But not at 1gb/s...
@Poutine-Chef 2 місяці тому
So what encryption do they use out of the box ? What are the options? Is it a wpa2 plus some sort of vpn ?
@AndreasSpiess 2 місяці тому
I did not check. Maybe you find it in the specs.
@christopherleubner6633 6 місяців тому
One fun thing you can do is expose oxygen to this frequency and it will convert some of it to singlet oxygen. If this is immediately used in a torch the heat generated is a lot more intense.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I am an electronics engineer, not a chemist ;-)
@peter.stimpel 6 місяців тому
Another toy to play with, nice. Do you know if there was a reason to block channel 5 and 6 here in Europe, or did I miss the info in the video?
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
It is not only blocked in the EU, it is the other way round: The two channels are only allowed in the US. But I did not investigate why.
@peter.stimpel 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess OK, maybe someone knows, so I will wait for the release of the video and check the comments.
@johnzach2057 6 місяців тому
@@peter.stimpel well because channels 5 and 6 aren't garbage bands. They are thus more valuable than the other channels.
@MegaCyklops 6 місяців тому
they are allowed since 2014... vendors are just lazy and copy/paste.
@meinsda5983 6 місяців тому
@@AndreasSpiess i don't know at the moment if there is a special version for U.S. but normaly you can adjust all with the country settings in the mikrotik menu
@eliseomoran7388 6 місяців тому
Would be interesting to align the equipment with a laser.
@dan-nutu 6 місяців тому
But not with a laser *and* binoculars! 😄 If OTOH you have a laser that can still be seen without optical aids at that distance... I wouldn't want to be at the "receiving end", looking into it!
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree, 1.5km is quite hard to see without binoculars.
@lptf5441 6 місяців тому
They didn't "give away" spectrum for free. All spectrum is owned by the public. The government simply decided not to license that part of the spectrum.
@AndreasSpiess 6 місяців тому
I agree.
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