Mistweaver has been added to the chapters. Our mistake!

The reason that healers have struggled this season is because group mistakes are so punishing and there is nothing the healer can do at the higher key levels. The examples you are using of groups doing no healer runs is because kicks aren’t ever missed and they are all sick players, whereas if you are appropriately geared and go into a +15 and one or two miss their kicks then it spirals and you often wipe, there is nothing we can do to stop it because the damage is so bursty. Worse players = more avoidable damage that no player can heal through…. Then inevitably the group blame the healer

The thing about healing is it will always be capped by people getting 1shot, because of the way damage scales in M+. At some point, the avoidable damage just becomes irrelevant because it becomes a dps/individual skill check to simply "not take the damage or die". After this point the only healing that matters is the non-avoidable damage, and this damage scales so high that again it comes down to things like personals, healing cds, and group utility/healing all being coordinated. Personally I enjoy lower keys more where people are taking avoidable damage often and I can actually do something other than just deal with the unavoidable stuff. The real problem that no one seems to talk about is how the M+ scales. The difficulty scales differently for dps/tanks than it does for healers. With regards to dps, the M+ difficulty scales by increasing mob health, essentially each key level takes the dps 10% longer (or they have to be 10% better at their job) to time the key. Tanks don't usually get 1-shot so it comes down to decreasing incoming damage or increasing self healing by 10%. The healing job needs the same treatment; this cannot happen without a change in design. And a large one at that. But lets talk about what I really mean, since some people still don't understand how M+ key level should scale for the healing job. Here's a few ideas: 1. Player health increases at the same rate of monster damage 2. Monster damage no longer scales but healing becomes 10% less effective per key level (multiplicative, not additive, so +10 key levels = 35% healing effectiveness, not 0) 3. Key has a global multiplier of 10% of healing is absorbed per key level (same as above but allows people to see their "normal healing" value in meters) 4. Group wide stagger which means damage can still be spiky and all of it needs to be healed, but you can spread it out over the key instead of a single global 5. Instead of death, players are stunned until healed full Obviously if you adopted something like the above, you'd need to balance the target damage against health pool (say the monster damage around key 15 feels pretty good, so normalize it to that current mulitplier (IE everything above key 15 would start adopting one of the above scaling methods, or M0 was re-calibrated to feel more like +15 damage incoming-wise). The above ideas are just me spitballing, someone like blizzard could certainly come up with something better, but still accomplishes the same goal: Healing skill and output would contribute to how quickly you time the key, essentially it takes longer for the healer to do their job (same treatment as mob health vs dps output) under the same circumstances. It also still allows for dps not standing in bad and using defensives effectively to reduce overall healing required and speed up the key. It's really the best of all worlds where good healers can help carry a bad group and vice versa, same as dps/tanks. This would also open the door to changing up the talents you take in favor of fun rather than "mandatory" (cough, flourish, cough). And it would open the door to bringing back tank healing (which I personally miss). The better your tank and healer are, the bigger the pulls you can do without going OOM, the more dps the dps can do = faster key.

I would love to see dungeons and raid guides for the next season!! Great work!

Such a nice video, as a healer main i say your dps and tank video was awesome too, made me watch them!

The first 2 minutes of this video in particular are brilliant and something that more people need to do. Stating your criteria that the scale is going off of and that there is a significant difference between acceptable and optimal play helps to focus the conversation an incredible amount. Great job with that.

Sure I will add my take, I am 3.2k on hpriest so nothing fancy but I have played. I would say more than anything, dependence on certain specs to add or remove 1-2 key levels of difficulty over other groups. Aug makes the key like 2 levels easier. Guardian makes the key level about 2 keys easier than other tanks, because I barely have to heal them (if ever) and they offheal a lot. Spriests also heal a lot compared to a hunter for example. Hunters are squishier, do not bring pi, do not bring friendly dispels, do worse damage, do 1/5 the healing, and are target capped if MM. So the balance of tank and dps survivability is an issue for healers, for no reason a 22 can feel like a 25 depending on your comp. I also think in lower keys, avoidable damage should do less damage because people in lower keys take a lot more avoidable damage. Right now a 13 in an average pug can be as hard as a 20 in a good group for a healer, this is whack. In higher keys damage should be almost all avoidable damage, even stop scaling unavoidable damage past 20.

Finally, we can all wake up from the dream. We all know Mistweaver isn't real, now we can move on EDIT: Just forgot to put it in the chapters. Back into the nightmare everyone, Mistweaver is still very real

Yo! I love your content; I'm not a player searching for more info on tier lists as I am a pretty competent mid level CE player, but I think content like this is super important for our community when the game is as challenging as it is atm. Anything that helps players learn / feel better about picking up and trying the game / difficult to learn roles like Healer is great. I would like to suggest you guys put a patch in the title, like (10.1.7) EVER HEALER... etc, since changes do happen, sometimes bigger than others. Paladins look like they'll be much easier next tier due to changes / their tier set, so it might be nice to give that context. Maybe add a disclaimer in the description like, "Changes are coming to X or Y that may change this!" and perhaps an opportunity to make a short follow video for each season. If that's easy enough to do, that'd be awesome. Not sure how much effort that would be for you guys, but either way, GL!

Good video, great. I would like to talk in future videos about the affixes in miticas plus, which ones you consider good and which ones should not exist. It would also be good what affixes you would like to exist or create.

Resto druid : Most APM, very proactive for its healing, needs to spend 1 global just to get into the form it needs to do damage + it's melee. Has the probably the lowest spot healing of all healers, needs 2 global for its AOE interrupts and has ton of utility to manage. Results : Intermediate 😂

Pres evoker also requires good use of stasis (which is extremely complicated for beginners) and has only 30 yard range for spells which matters tons in some dungeons.

What you said about healers complaining that healing is too hard but some groups not needing a healer is the whole problem. The only two options are being expected to heal ridiculous amounts of avoidable damage or being superfluous or just a second rate dps. There's no option for creative high skill healing outside healing checks which are incredibly unforgiving. And in raids the damage is so bursty that racing other healers to the damage is the only way to get on the charts. It's fun doing a mythic with a good group but a lot of them see a healer as bringing little value to the group.

Just subbed, clear and great videos! Thanks

the disc priest dying instantly twice within 10 seconds speaks volumes to what it's like to play disc priest lmao

I think this was mostly good for beginners looking to heal. I think in 10.2, the skill cap of rshaman is gonna sky rocket with its new tier tho.

Some dungeon guides with tactics and prios for tank heal and dd would be nice

I am not a healer but I think what healers are truly complaining about is the job of managing healing, some DPS, and extra mechanics. Mechanics meaning dispels, decurse, poison cleansing, support with CC, stops, and managing affixes. You have probably played with healers that don't do any DPS. When you ask them why, some of them will tell you it isn't their job. They take it as you are trying to slight them. Some people thing healing is difficult because they have 3 roles. Healing, extra mechanics, and minor DPS.

shaman is a wild healer with all the totems and heals, the KIT is HUGE, i have every button available binded and more

Ones I was World 50 M+ Holy Paladin back in legion and tried it again in Season 2 Dragonflight. Lets say it was much harder than I thought it would be especially after all the nerfs. You not just heal, you deal damage, interrupt and cc. You literally do everything as a healer which makes it hard to push if you are not able to do all of it.

I kinda agree on that in some mythic+ dungeons it can be incredible demanding, HoI third boss tyrannical for instance. On a 25 and over it requires an absurd amount of healing to even be near topping people up when you get to around 15-20% of it's health. That being said i think 90% of the current dungeons is till really easy to heal if people just do the mechanics of the dungeons. I always play Discipline Priest which requires alot of cordination with the tank and the dps to do it properly so i can understand why some people would say it's harder to heal now but i disagree if we're talking about 25+ and up. Below i might agree since there's many people that might not know the mechanics yet or just refuse to go out of them.

First off, the dungeons that was completed without a "healer" had classes that can self-heal themself for a large amount. The all Paladin runs could be done with all Druid in tank, all Monk as tanks, even Blood Death Knights could pull it off with a good rotation. But you don't see it happening with Warrior tanks at all. They have almost no way of healing themselves. Death Knights and Demon Hunters are able to do it but much harder then the three hybrids of the tanks. With this said do tanks next.

Meaningfully hard and hard just to be hard are 2 different things, and what we have right now it the latter, and not to mention how almost everything is tunned for the top 0.1% skilled players (which i don't necessarily find to be a bad thing) which, in between classes creates chaos. Take for example the recommenced M+ build for Holy Priest on a lot of websites like Icy Veins/ WoWHead etc etc, they are mostly fully picking all DPS talents, why? Because the top 0.1% doesn't need more healing since these people are so good, it needs more damage to push keys not more healing (despite the fact that it actually does in general and in lower keys where people scale with +M dngs) but in reality there is so little breathing room in the talents trees even when you do a healing build you still feel inadequate to heal certain keys regardless of combinations of choices in these trees and it's not even your fault partly at least simply because Blizzard has spread the agency around (as if healers didn't have enough work already), and made so if a DPS doesn't use a defensive at the right time that DPS is very likely dead and we all know what usually happens next, "it's the healers fault, x player leaves the party." key and time wasted. Overpowered classes with near literally binary choices, not enough tools (or their CDs of theirs are too high) to deal with affixes, an f ton of dng legit bugs wiping groups or breaking keys and wasting the players time. Like wtf is this sh*t. The talent tree system while a good thing was actually made in combination of how old trees worked but with a mix of how SL covenant talents worked, and they have made you to think you have more choice and which you actually do to some degree, all that has been achieved so far to reinforce cocky cutter builds even more. Then there spreading power too thin in them. There are plenty of talents in which are not treated per content bases like this talent has different stats/numbers/ratios for M+ and different for raid so the player can actually use the same playstyle in both types of content and at the same time, even though increasing the effort from Blizzard to balance the game in that regard, initially at least, it makes it way easier after talents' values have been tweaked. People are playing classes which where never ready for the expansion or very subpar version of them which have changed and while change can be a good think, no one really wants to wait half an expansion for their class to be made to be playable and competitive and the equally important, fun. You take most of these generalized things and view from the perspective of a healer, and you will realize why we healers don't want to have to do anything with S2. I am only barely sticking around because i just like healing so much. This comes from someone who has done all 22+ keys on MW(3k rating currently), all 20s on HPriest, and the rest are Prevoker, Disc Priest, Resto Druid.

Just been playing disc this exp, S2 has been really fun. Nice difficulty imo.

does anyone here have a link for the list on 2:56? and It would be great if the cite could be translated in any language like Wowhead

Yep, healing is fking hard. The thing is, if you are in a well organised group + ppl understand mechanics + ppl are actually geared for the key - it is pretty ok. But for me pugging all my keys, tanks eat all the donkey mechanics that can be avoided, dps braindead just tries to top the meter and you're standing there healing ur brain out, being exhausted and stressed out at the end of the run. so yea no fun healing.

I think the main source of divided opinion on difficulty is people who focus on raid and people who focus on keys. Healing has been miserable in both, but for very different reasons. Imo keys and raid need separate tuning at this point, and the Damage Taken profiles are probably more to blame than healer power (which is also an issue).

Been healing and tanking keys since legion. Disc preist is on a completely different difficulty than the rest of the healers. Its advanced +

the healing is just not fun because healing tries to "fix" the mistakes others make or not doing the punishing mechanics/interrupts and massive damage ensues. Then we get blamed for everything. Just frustrating to no end

Problem is that some specs are clearly stronger when others and blizz cant find a way to make everyone happy. When they buffed hpaly they could have improved other healers as well, make them mobile, give them better tools so they can deal with problems easily. Maybe increase they toolkit and reduced the power of players personal defensives a little bit. Race powers is also a problem, its unfair that every high level spec should play dwarf. Lastly, there are some boss and mobs mechanics I dont like- you can pay atention, make one little mistake and you are dead. Generally I like challendge, but some mechanics are a little bit too much for casual pug player trying to beat +20.

Personally the only unfun thing that is controllable is the damage spikes and the lack of defensives on certain classes, mainly looking at priest and mist weaver. The other side is i don't think itd be too miserable if it wasnt such a community problem since anything below a +25 people cant seem to find their utility or cc buttons. Maybe its me, an my luck with pugs but to have keys bricked because people wont help with incorporeal or afflicted, sometimes i think people are crying because its a self inflicted wound

problem is that allot of classes are able to offheal so if you've got some good players and take shadow priest, retro pala, druid dps etc they can do some insane off healing if they focus on it. so i'dd buff regular healers and nerf like 60-70% of the offhealing

Controversial opinion, but I find healing easier this season, compared to s1. However, I do feel that healing would be way better and less stressful if avoidable damage and certain mechanics didn't 1/2 tap peeps in higher keys. The best example of these are the orbs in the first boss of VP, which can 2 tap people in less than 3 seconds, and Avalanche in Neltharion's Lair. Another factor that makes healing really stressful is the fact that some of these 2 tap mechanics have horrible (or almost not existent) visual telegraphs. Yes, you can technically avoid Avalanche if you move as the mob is casting it, but good luck trying to see that cast bar while 10+ mobs are stacked in the same area with their own health bars.

The biggest issues with healing have been: - bad/low spot healing - high bursty damage - inconsistency across m+ dungeons Healing is a challenge which has been a lot of fun but the only ‘walls’ in keys have been healing checks and the constant bursty damage means that you need to top people instantly or they might die. Healing has been okay but S3 with better spot healing already feels better on PTR. They just need to focus on making all healing spells feel strong and meaningful for different reasons across each class. Pugged to 3k as a healer before the dungeon key level nerf and also pushed +20s on a few different healing classes so I enjoyed healing this season but I can see why some people didn’t. Inconsistency across specs and content felt bad.

Considering group builds don't seem to do better with repeated races (2 druid, 2 evokers, 2 pallys...) higher end healing is limiting who can successfully be brought into groups. Unless your guild is willing and wants to run a completely different mix you aren't going to get invited it seems. The current Meta group dynamic seems set based on what each class brings in the group in terms of buff. Hunters again are seemingly left out. M+ is getting too selective for group builds.

i Dont agree that mistweaver struggles with topping off outside melee, Soothing mist, with vivify gets people up fast. On top of that with enveloping mist and renewing mist its even faster.

i've never suffered as much while healing like i do now, here is my background so you can see i'm no stranger to hard stuff: been healing with druid since the end of burning crusade, been my main since, during the lich king did *lots* of raiding, on the first patch did all hard modes achievements, sarth 3d, all naxx's too, immortal, malygos... everything, also during ulduar got the 1st kill yoggy in spain, 4th kill in all europe, mimiron self destroy button, yoggy no keepers, algalon, got the tribute to skill in totg, then my guild disbanded because the soab we gave shadowmourne left our guild to go to the top 2 one under promises and stuff and that broke us, so yeah i'm no strager to hard stuff, planning, plotting, drawing diagrams on paint...wiping an average of 30 times to get a 1st kill, somedays raiding both 10 and 25 men, up to 16 hours in a row... but dragonflight, specifically since 10.1.5.... it's so goddamn annoying, i don't evon know what bluzzfart are thinking, mind soothe and mass dispell on the same class and spec? fuck you bluzzfart... and those oneshot mechanics..... fucking fuck you bluzzfart, not to mention the ammount of retards that wont even interrupt on keys above 20... 🤦🏽🤦🏿‍♀️🤦🏼🤦🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾

I feel like healing shares the same challenges as dps and tanks, I definitely think with some of the affix combos in s2 that it does feel quite punishing sometimes, to the point where you’re the only person in the group dispelling or interrupting etc. It has been mega fun to heal this season, don’t get me wrong as I play hpala, but other healings could have been buffed sooner rather than later to compete with the healing hpala brings.

The people arguing are two camps. M+ players and raid players. Healers are absolutely busted in raids. Rashoks is a big offender, not only does it provide a ton of mana, youre also pumping vers onto the raid with your giant heal cd. It doesnt help that almost every fight in the raid has tons of rot damage, so the name of the game is ramp ramp ramp. Spot healing is really bad right now. You cast a flash of light or a flash heal, and someones hp bar barely moves. It feels like wasted mana and more importantly wasted GCDs. The only time you feel strong is, once again, ramps and cds. The difference is that the damage profile is different for 5mans vs raids. So what happens when you cant spotheal well? Everyone avoids damage or it becomes miserable. Nerf cds, buff heals, change the raid target profile to support spothealing at times. Thats the only way to fix this.

priest healer is my favorite for mythics when people dont know whats going on because it keeps them from dying when messing up, other healers can only heal you after u messed up and messing up i mythics is instant death unless u are sheilded

Where can i find mistweaver UI? Hes using vuhdoo?

my problem with healing in M+ is that if you are in a good group, the least thing you will do is to actually heal someone. Most damage is avoidable, and if you take avoidable damage on a high key its instant death, no room for healing. Basically what I see is that the healer nowadays in M+ is more like a "DPS that can eventually heal if needed" than anything. I love healing but this really turns you down about the role.

MW non existence

Season 3 is a healer nightmare. I have been playing as healer since 2005. This season, i switched to dps. Thanks bliz.

the idea that mw has poor single target healing is absolutely wild to me. Watch someone like megasett play and you'll quickly see that the spec pumps single target heals.

healing in s2 is way easier than in s1, more predictable dmg patterns. Atleast for my garbage +20 runs

Reactive healers stress the f out of me, proactive healers make me feels I have so much to learn still. My favorite is obvious 😁

Resto druid is so hard for beginners because you simply can’t play it without the right add ons. Without some kind of ability timers there’s no way you’re going to be able to ramp. As it is healing at any semi serious level is impossible without the correct UI and frames making the role itself not beginner friendly

Healer is incredibly busy in dragonflight and add on top of that incredibly punishing mechanics and then there's also the hate that gets turned on you if a dps fucks up is really frustrating.

Used to know how all healers worked. Now I don’t understand anything of this video lmao

7:25

I miss the days where I healed and the option to do damage during open times was enough to get by, now if I'm not doing damage between healing I get flamed and kicked from parties.

I absolutely hate healing m+ but love healing raids. And no I’m not a noob, I’m usually top heals

For the Druid at the end, why did you just mention feral form for their dps when moonweaving is easier and doesn't require you get into melee. Sunfire when applied and keeped up alone can do some okay damage and if you are in a good postion you can always pop Heart of the Wild and shift into Moonkin form to increase you damage even more. Now I don't suggest taking Starsurge unless you can go without Hibernate. But going through the balance side of the tree you will also get Astral Influence and Rising Light, Falling Night which is not bad for healers also. I don't agree with your statement about Druids not having a lot of responsabilities. Yes they don't have a interrupt but they are still required for CCing, through the use of Hibernate, Rooting, Slowing/pulling, through Ursol's Vortex, off damaging with Nature's Vigil, and off damaging when you can with HotW. I do agree that with the introduction of Grove Guardians that druid healers can do a bit more damage but that might make them seem intermediate, but I would say there is no healer in intermediate. Druids have enough to worry about and to keep track of that they should be in the hard group. They have almost the some responsabilities as a paladin but without the interrupt, but also have a bit extra going on with the HoTs.

True. Its okay to be vanilla. 🤣

Because use to your needed traps and sheeting t r, because the mobs where hard. A single mob could kill you. So now mobs are so easy that they just group Zerg mobs. Without CC we don’t need healers as mush. They need to up dmg to BC o catACYSM Dungeon difficulty or TBC. Heroic was ad hard as mythic now

mistweavers XDXDXD

There are a lot of buttons

I want Mage a Battlemage Duel wielding sword Mage

i was thinking about healing but i decided not to after this video. dafuq this is stress. can't i just stand and heal?

druid is harder than you ranked it... different forms and everything.

boi forgot about monk

No mistweaver. Thanks guys, I thought it was just Blizzard who had forgotten about us.

just saw 5 warriors do a 26...healing is not hard

In the nicest way, most DPS are useless, and don't realise they are useless. The amount of M+ I have healed where the DPS take 2 frontals, not HS or Defensives, die. Blame the healer. But to be fair, min/maxing metaslaves are generally pretty useless.

Of course keys will see some non healer groups, the best healing is on classes that aren't healers hahahaha

I think its easy to heal in Dragon Flight.

My monk also forgot her mistweaver spec.

Monk? :p

Healing is super easy in M+. Which kind of people really want a Shadowlands back where we didn’t have to heal at all?

IMO Druid should be in the Beginner friendly category. It's arguably simpler and has less buttons than Shaman and Holy Priest.

Disc will always be the hardest spec in the game.Please do tanks next

Prevoker in hard ? My main healer that I coach with and get peopoe who never healed to 95%+ logs like nothing. The spec that has the most mobility and highest bursts of healing in the game and easy duplicate heals is hard. Sure.

Why am I not surprised? Mistweaver is missing.

Hpal hard? LMAO they got to be smoking crack over there. tier list is as follow easy: Hpriest, pres, internediate: Disc, hpal Rsham Hard: Rdruid MW Rdruid has the hardest damage rotation and since they dont have a oh shit button really like every other healer they cannot really save someone from doing dumb. They dont have a kick which makes them just that much harder as well. (skull bash isnt taken because its in shit spot and requires 2 GCDs)

Just get rid of healers and give everyone else healing abilities

I think the majority of the players are struggling because blizzard made them lazy in the first place. M+ was all about doing the most dps as a healer while offhealing. Now they need to heal and are making a riot. Imo, Healing role should be healing, not dps. ofcourse offdps is fine but that shouldnt be your main role. Im playing around 2,4k mmr pvp and am used to heal heavy and in stress situations. I had no problems healing +22 last time.

I've been hating healing for ages. Being forced to dps, just kills the fantasy entirely for me. Doing mediocre dps also cringes me, cuz I love being on top of the meters. So am I a shitty dps or a healer ffs?

Healing is fine but people are bad at this game and that alone makes healing significantly more difficult

Lost me when you called prevoker hard lmao

Healing sucks right now. There's extreme button bloat. You're also a babysitter like never before in Mythic+. You're very reliant on others interrupting and doing the mythic mechanics correctly, otherwise they die immediately. Oh, and resto shaman sucks so much in pugs.

make healers do 50%+ damage of a dps and reduce healing power. will make way more people play healers in m+

bruh you forgot mistweaver...

I've grown so toxic in mythic+ as a healer main I've been debating if it is time to unsub for a bit. Only 2300 io, because I just despise this current meta of noobs attempting content they aren't capable of grasping. Left lost ark because I was tired of staying at top tier in order to participate on the next and best content. I wanted something with more diversity in skill levels... But its crazy how horrible players are in content they shouldn't be. 4 mil dmg from volcanic eruptions. 5 mil dmg soaked as melee in sanguine. No personals to save themselves followed by a BS "...." afterwards. Actually getting sick of it.. I wanna learn harder.. but keep finding myself watching everyone catch up.. Disbanding from group asap, rather than asking what the key turned into.

healing on m+ isnt rewarding or even fair, isnt even a skill issue (for average players..), the healers simply dont heal enough

Every class is the hard to heal because this game is dumb atm

:)

healing in wow sucks. too many insta death mechanics that can't be healed

These rankings are so bogus. Anyone can do any content if they are good enough. Play whatever you want

"Melee" is pronounced "muhlii", and not "meyley" pls ......

It seems you wanna be very professional … too bad you don‘t even know all the healing classes 🤦‍♂️

:)