I have never seen you fire hollow point projectiles from the 45-?? family of cartridges. How impactful is that hollow tip shape to the accuracy of the sharps at various ranges? I wonder if a hollow point, at the 1-20 tin-lead allow will perform well considering the added penetration from the hardness. What are your thoughts on the use of alloys that include antimony?

when I was a young boy, my cousin had a high velocity air rifle, and if we shot soft lead pellets, they would disintegrate without hitting the target. we always assumed it happened outside of the barrel, because of the supersonic velocity and the soft lead. Is that the correct assumption or does the pellet come apart before it even leaves the barrel? I assume something similar would happen above 500 m/s like you mentioned in the video

@@davidcahill4670 Hi David, I do use hollow point bullets from 1:30 and 1:20 alloy for my 45-90 1886 Winchester. I also have a hunting round for the Sharps. It is just perfect for European big game. I use Lyman's hollow point 45-70 bullet. Antimony is usually not liked by casters. Tin alloy more uniformly with lead.

great Video ❤! I would love to know how this cartridge compares to the 50-100-450 WCF in the Winchester 1886....

Why are you so awesome and amazing?

Imagine some guy up on a hill, shooting his PKM at you from 2599 meters away, when...PLOP.

Sorry, it's not a real Quigley. Only those made by Shiloh are.

There are much superior custom-made dummies that set fresh raw bones in ballistic gel with surrogate fluid-filled organs, rubbery tendons, air filled lungs, etc. "Spare no expense" type stuff like you'd sell to a medical college. There's a famous brand name but I can't recall it at the moment. They were >$1500 apiece when I last checked, so I suspect they are entirely intended for government and corporate research ballisticians. The things we know, we picked up over time. The FBI's 12-18 inches of penetration through clothing standard came after a series of bloody shoot-outs revealed that the .38 Special was in fact a marginal cartridge - sometimes it went deep enough, sometimes not. Sometimes the hollowpoints expanded, sometimes they didn't. It didn't like sheet steel car bodies, and the hollow points failed more often in winter due to having to penetrate multiple layers of cloth and denim before hitting flesh. Today we know that velocity is king, and rapid controlled bullet destabilization (after a chosen level of penetration) is the mission. A 5.56 or 7.62mm rifle bullet which penetrates into and then destabilizes inside the thoracic cavity will instantly kill a human basically 100% of the time - the supersonic shockwave suddenly exploded inside that delicate sealed bag bounces off the back of the ribs and ruptures both lungs and generally stops the heart and rips the aorta and vena cava off even if the permanent wound channel doesn't hit it directly. This is why there is such an emphasis on "center mass" for human targets - if the bullet works as designed, it is an instant humane kill.

That's a very good source. I've been using it.

Shooting that cartridge out of a heavy buffalo gun looks like it hurts. Imagine it in a rifle that you'd carry in bear country.

The 45-120/ 450BPE was the 30-06 of its time. The 500BPE/ 50-140 was the more powerful British round that was then adopted by Sharps and American buffalo runners

@@pamtnman1515 an important distinction to note is, the .45-110 and the .50-120 we're almost exclusively commercial hunting cartridges used only for that purpose. Average Joe the homesteader wasn't about to go to that expense just to shoot a deer, thus, the rarity of these big rifles. Punt guns existed too, but had nothing like the popularity of a common cartridge like the .30-06.

@@dangvorbei5304 yeah, I also think the odd cartridges like 45-90, 45-100, 45-110 were likely specially stocked in gun shops as something to fit smaller people.

Do you have a source for a few rounds of brass? I have a 45-120 but no ammunition or brass

Kamilla. :) 50% sharpei, 50% labrador. And always in the focus. :)

I would like to interject here, "This "dog" don't hunt."

@@CameronMcCreary The only thing my dogs hunt are whatever I'm eating at the time.

It's interesting to those of us who load and shoot paper patched 45-120 rounds. Basically it's all about the composition of the lead bullet you cast and swage. Too soft and it expands too much and doesn't penetrate. Too hard and it doesn't expand at all. It also depends on the average distance you are shooting at and the remaining velocity at that point. That said, the 8x57 does just fine on elk, moose and bison with proper modern hunting bullets.

@@0529mpb For sure. C&B makes these skills accessible to people who want to move beyond admiration and into enjoyment of these disciplines. A good dog adds to the experience, though.

Yes, the 8x57 is a very good hunting cartridge for all European big game.

@@capandball With European ammunition anyway. Here in the US a lot of 8x57 rifles were surplus military rifles of various ages, some with the older .318" diameter bore and some with the newer .323" diameter, and American hunters knew nothing of this difference. Firing a full-power large diameter cartridge in an older gun with the smaller bore would have been disastrous, so ammo for the US market is a very soft bullet fired at a much lower pressure. This way the soft bullet will compress down to whatever the bore diameter is and still not produce enough pressure to destroy an old gun, but the end result is a disappointingly low velocity and often poor accuracy. It's the same reason that US manufacturers used to make special high-velocity smokeless loadings for some vintage cartridges in newer firearms, but then had to stop because some people insisted on loading whatever would fit into whatever ancient gun they had.

Many thanks for your support!

An exit wound would be ideal in that case but I don't know if that round could do it in a bison.

They drop just fine and quick with a well placed shot. Seen it dozens of times.

Hi, it is a Krieghoff Hubertus.

On the bucket list!

You are shooting the 450 Nitro Express at 2850 fps! 😳 I have never heard of this kind of velocity before. What powder are you using?

Do you have any extra brass you can share or sell. I have a 45-120 with no ammunition.

@@longtimepittsowner5589 Try 450 Nitro Express brass. If it’s not exactly the same, it should be close enough to shape with the loading press and dies

@@pamtnman1515 Great news I’ll look for 450 Nitro Express brass! Thanks!

@@longtimepittsowner5589 The British .450 Black Powder Express was the 30-06 of its time, basically 1870-1899. The same cartridge became known as the 45-120 in America. Fireform some of your new brass and see if it doesn’t perfectly fit your gun’s chamber. Are you using black or smokeless powder?

The density of gels is usuqlly set to include the skin also in the avarage picture.

@@capandball I wonder how well the gel includes it as it was said that there is distinct jump in properties and penetration when passing through the skin and then internal cavity of the body. And i.e thanks to elasticity of the skin bullet below certain threshold will likely by found on the opposite side of the body under the skin. While it would be still able to penetrate thicker body, it is unable to get through the skin layer

Do you have any extra 45-120 brass you could part with? or a source ? I have a 45-120 but no brass shells to load

@@longtimepittsowner5589 I've been using the same 3 boxes for over 15 years. However if you're in the U.S., You can call Buffalo Arms in Idaho & they often have the loaded ammunition. I couldn't tell you how much at this moment because I haven't had to buy it in a long time. I expect I will within a couple years though. Don't know how many more loads I'll get on this brass.

For European big game yes, I agree.

@@capandball there was a famous elephant hunter who killed 800 of them using a rifle chambered in 7x57 mm Mauser, with heavy round nosed bullets, which were the original, early 1890s load. FMJ bullets don't expand and also round nosed ones have less of a tendency to tumble than spitzer, due to the fact the center of gravity is closer to the front of the bullet, where the forces are exerted so that bullet could just go trough meters of flesh in a straight line. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell When armies switched from round nosed to spitzer bullets at the start of the 20th century, in order to improve both internal ballistics - less bearing surface - and external one - better aerodynamics - it also had a large impact on terminal ballistics, since the new bullets tended to violently tumble tip to bottom when hitting flesh, and also lighter jacketed ones fragmented. Instead of a small 6.5-8 mm wide permanent cavity and the bullet shedding relatively little energy inside the body, one would find a 20-30 mm jagged gouge and almost all energy dumped inside the body.

Hi, the bras is available in Europe, but you have to wait to get it. But it's not impossible.

I have never had a problem getting brass for 45-120 (3 1/4") it is/was available from Bertram in Australia, and Norma, and my cases have been in use for many shots over 15 years. So in the end they are not as expensive as people say, stay safe! Chris B.

Yes, please chexk my film about its history.

You have obviously never the the shock caused from an archery equipment. In fact your whole comment sounds like someone that has never hunted anything

Please let me know the source for this. The 45-120 is not an express cartridge. 45-90 started as an express cartridge, Winchester's 45-125 was an express cartridge.

@@capandball The 45-120 is exactly the same shell as the 450 BPE (black powder express), which became the 450 NE (nitro express) after smokeless powder. One of the books on the history of sporting arms cartridges will have this information. Right now i am at my hunting cabin, far away from my gun library, or I would get you exactly what you want. The black powder era was the most creative time for gun making, especially the 1880s. Different rifling types, different ignitions, new steels and greatly improved beautiful Damascus barrels, improved reloading tools and gun cases so sportsmen could take their rifle anywhere and make their own ammunition, etc. The explosion in different cartridges by this time was incredible, and many if not all were the result of British firms making their own unique, proprietary rounds. Holland & Holland, Purdey, Alex Henry to name a few were highly productive in this area. When I return home, hopefully with a buck, I’ll respond to your question more directly. I like your videos, I really appreciate the work you put in, and I am thankful for the positive face you put on black powder and antique firearms. Way too many people have “magnumitis” and want to hunt with far over powered firearms, which causes meat loss and an erosion of hunting skills. You are showing these people they can have fun and give wildlife a sporting chance.

George Hoyem, Volume III@@capandball

@@pamtnman1515 Thanks, I have one from George Hoyem, but that's only paper cartridges.

@@capandballyou definitely want volume III. It has almost all the brass cartridges starting in the 1860s. You can plot the development of brass cartridges pretty well. I found one error in it that I corrected in my last Double Gun Journal article in 2022. Turns out the .375 2-1/2” Flanged bullets came in an array of diameters. From .370 to .375. I bought a large number of different .375 cartridges and found the average diameter was .373, which is logically why the caliber was often called the .370 …. Anyhow, this story provides insight into the development of early brass cartridges. All over the place.