great way to say it

In real world rust is never actually fast, all lies from the cult. Go just beats it easily with a much better user experience. Their flagship server Rocket gets crushed by Go fiber in every area, including speed.

@@SumoCumLoudly Rocker is not really 'flahship server', no idea why you'd want to misrepresent rust here :P Try comparing fiber to actix web. I have to admit tho, rust is super hard and performance gained from it (i've no doubt that it can outperform go any time) still might not be worth it for most people.

@@NoxyYT theoretically you can write rust code to match c++, in reality tho the code just doesn't exist because nobody can write it. Go pick up the popular rust library for whatever area you can think of and compare it to the c++ equivalent, its nowhere near as fast, chances are it won't even be as fast as the Go equivalent never mind c++. It's difficult to write slow code in c++, and it's difficult to write fast code in rust. Most c++ programmers handle memory as second nature, they don't need protection from themselves. I can see why companies would buy into the idea of enforced safety, but unless lives depend on your code, I wouldn't even give rust a second thought, the juice isn't worth the squeeze as they say.

@@SumoCumLoudly false

I guess there's only one way to find out. Fork and benchmark?

You are totally right. I suggested in a comment to replace the implementation with actix websocket.

Are you one of those gods who helps on stackoverflow ?

@@LinuxUser123 He sure does sound like one✨

HashMaps in general are just a perfomance sink

tytytytyttytyty, way too kind.

@@ThePrimeagen blazingly good your videos

comedians are generally good at everything, i live in a country which is run by comedian

@@makkusu3866 which one if I may ask

@@darkfoxwillie the invaded one

yayaya, ty

big agree

go go go!

yeah! I subscribed!

I would like to see that!

Well go for me is easy as Ruby to learn, learning right now. It goes well though i'm warming up before going fully into 8hours routine daily. I think I can get there in a week from now

Well what stops me right now that some time I read, watch some content i need to learn till I finish, a little less coding, beside I participate in Rails hackathon and i wanna mąkę head space for that, do less for moment

go is almost always the right decision for the back end. I understand the JVM based arguments and nodejs, but I am al go

I've been writing Go professionally for 9 years. It's really really good. Most of the time the right way to write the code is very straight forward and obvious... and then it performs really well with no optimization..... The only performance problems I've had were logic-based, not language-based. For example, this one API endpoint made 12 database calls, when it could have been consolidated into just a few. I've never been like "oh, this part of the code is doing too many loops and copying too much data... we should rewrite the logic so that it'll be faster" ... nope. 100% has not happened. *and* you can understand the code when you come back to it in 6 months or a year, or if you're new to the codebase.

@@NateFinch Can i get your take on Django?

@@quentonwong408 having worked extensively in both Go and Django, Go all the way. Django has a lot of footguns and things that'll slow down productivity to a crawl. Django's migrations take FOREVER compared to running similar migrations in Go or Elixir or Rust. For example, we had ~200 migrations that would take 4 minutes to run on a arm64 fully-specced macbook pro. We had to spend ~4 days of an engineers time to consolidate those migrations down to 50, and they still take ~1 minute to run. In my Go app with 100 migrations, it takes about 5 seconds. In my elixir app with ~400 migrations it takes about 20 seconds. That alone should dissuade you from using django. Then we get to just how slow python is in general and it starts to look less and less usable.

we trying!

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT! Love to see it got across. There just comes a reward payout that doesnt make sense for the 99.99% of software

moarVM? "Metamodel On A Runtime" . Rakudo

yayayaya, ty ty ty :)

as a person who has written a lot of rust and go, I prefer go. its easier to teach people, easier to maintain, and easier to read IMO. you get like 80% performance of Rust without the large up front Rust knowledge cost and slower development speed and turn around (compilation is much slower and active development recompiles a lot).

How's the project? I aspired to learn rust for a long time but have come to see it as unrealistic

you are welcome :)

people love to see others suffer.

thanks scott :) those are very nice words

GET THAT COCONUT OIL OUT BABE

@@ThePrimeagen SIR, YES SIR! RUBBING THE COCONUT OIL ON MY GOPHER RIGHT NOW SIR!!!

rust is the _funnest_ language to write. You feel like a hacker without all the difficulty :) But go is boring, but its SO easy to get right.

The biggest problem for me with NodeJs API's has been unavoidable blocking code. Yeah, even after we async all the things, some things that need an immediate response are going to block. With Go, you can stick every request in a goroutine and not have the spillover.

I think the abstractions for concurrency chosen in go have democratized multi-threaded programming. Before go getting threads running in parallel was an arcane art only tried in very rare circumstances by the top 1% of programmers. Then go came along and showed how normal programmers can also write fast, safe, multi-threaded code.

@@EdouardTavinor Great way to put it.

Let's go!!!

No

Discord has entered the chat

At this point it would not be any faster than go to be honest, and if there are any calculations (did not dive into the project to realise that) there is no point (elixir developer here).

@@Qizot Can you elaborate? Highly interested - is Go on par with Elixir/Erlang regarding its concurrency model performance wise?

@@freeo6242 Short answer: What do you define performance wise. Are you looking at something that is computationally heavy or something that is latency dependent. Go fits the former while Erlang (and Elixir, both of which run on the BEAM VM) fits better for the latter. Longer answer: Erlang/Elixir (and by extension the BEAM VM) and Go both offer similar concurrency models (userspace threading) but the latter is "better" if you are reliant upon heavy computation. Some exceptions exist here as you are able to hook in more performant code written in another language using Erlang's Natively Implemented Functions. Erlang/Elixir enforces preemption through reduction counting, which basically counts how many times a function is executed, whereas Go is still largely cooperatively scheduled. To my understanding Go requires the compiler to insert checkpoints in the code to yield execution of the userspace process back to the scheduler. There was a proposal for adding preemption features to the Go scheduler but I'm not quite sure what the status of that is. As a result of its preemptive-like scheduler, Erlang (and by extension Elixir and other languages on the BEAM VM) have been described as soft-realtime. This in simple terms means that Erlang is capable of low latency workloads but lacks the ability for throughput oriented workloads, Go is the opposite of this.

@Kelvin Hu explained the difference between go and elixir in the Sebastian Henao comment, and it does not seem the case.

yaya! Its a lot of fun, but very hard to do. I'll try to get some more

yayaya! effectively the answer is: TS sucks because ecosystem, go / rust are great, rust is best

​@@ThePrimeagen well, TS has the npm where you could find literally everything. Also, almost any 3rd party service has an integration/SDK with js/ts. I wouldn't say that it's an easy choice

maybe it's more about community than the ecosystem, but this thing really matters. I know a guy who tried to make a dapp/blockchain project on C#, he suffered a lot

Go's module (dependency management) system is really solid these days. Testing support is fantastic. Built in testing suite, performance testing, fuzzing, runnable examples, code coverage..... And it even has generics now.

yaya! Go is really great

@@ThePrimeagen that's funny cuz "yay" is written in golang

I really wanted to make this a "Language" comparison video :) But this is an interesting idea. I could make a follow up with Is it worth it to make c++ modules in TS?

@@ThePrimeagen In that light I have always been curious how "easy" it is to call a different language from another language. Can we call Rust from typescript to make it truly blazingly fast?

@@ThePrimeagen or using Rust packages in TS. I have never seen anyone actually benchmarks calling a FFI package (especially Rust) from TS. It would be really interesting...

thank you

yayaya!

Yeah! Thank you :)

hah. professors are so out of date

​@@ThePrimeagen I had to learn Cobol on college, and I'm not THAT old! :)

exactly. The amount of investigation needed is high. I am positive that there are things I could do to make it better, but the fact that i can just go func() { ... } just shows the power of a system designed for async runtimes.

@@ThePrimeagen the most equivalent thing to that in rust is tokio::spawn(async { ... }), right? that does not seem to be much of a diff to me...

Oh snap! thank you

trying

just don't think i have the patience for learning another language this year. ;)

Concurrency. Does it matter if concurrency abstractions are built into language or available as a library...I don't think it matters. Maybe in a more opinionated language, but Go is not very opinionated imho. It's just this C with lipstick on.

I can't say I agree. It's not just a matter of being built into the language but the ease of use it gives. As I said, I can't talk for Rust, but the code I've seen in videos to implement something like channels in Go, IMHO, is wayyy more complicated than Go

you are welcome and i appreciate the nice comment.

it was large and i could try to see where the limit is on one cpu before explosions, but man, so many hours on this :)

yayaya! I know, i made the joke once, I have to be original

@@ThePrimeagen sounds fair 😂

thank you :)

I now have a working version of Rust that is several times faster than go. But it took significantly longer. Now I'm not sure if that is just a requirement of getting good at a language, whereas go feels like most languages have already used.

that is the proper outlook. Most of us will never do proper systems programming. Most of us will never have servers absolutely maxed out (which mine wasn't technically, the CPU wasn't there, ~40-60% utilized). Most of us don't have memory security issues, just shitty programming issues :) ALL OF THAT SAID. Rust is my favorite language

I disagree. The selling point of rust is not only the performance potential and memory safety but also the type system and compiler error messages, ecosysrem, cargo clippy, docs.rs, etc. I tend to use rust even for little applications where performance doesn't matter at all, just because it makes it so much easier to build something that works reliably and correctly does what I want it to do.

let me tell you go has been the cause of at least one security issues which rust could not have allowed, but the devs probably had the same thoughts as you.

@@ThePrimeagen nim/phix-lang/v-lang/zig saying hold our beers

Thank you! It took 1.5 hours last night to make :)

rust is amazing, but I have done SOOOO mucth effort with rust and still suck. Go is truly a magical language

@@ThePrimeagen Go is magical and also BLAZINGLY fast! 😆

Exactly, and if go is not good enough, then scale it horizontally. Case closed.

it seems the rust version is spawning two tasks: one for sending each socket to another task, which then spawns one task per connection. im sure he could improve it by directly using a while loop spawning one task per connection, instead of two tasks message-passing when they dont need to. edit: also, i noticed he seems to do as i suggested in his go version, i wonder if he is being (unintentionally) biased?

Golang doesn't have "threads" directly. When you use goroutine that is an "lightweight thread". Also, that goroutine can execute concurrently or in parallel or sequentially. So, multiple goroutine can execute on the same thread (by interrupting), or execute in multiple threads and also change between threads. The only way to lock each Goroutine into thread is using `runtime.LockOSThread()`, but that is never used (except in some edge cases, like: when you are talking with OpenGL or system APIs, such as Cocoa API, which expects all calls to come from a single thread). But, by default, create a goroutine and the runtime will manage it for you, simple as that. 🥳

As far as I can tell in the current version of the rust code, he doesn't create new threads for each connection, only async tasks with tokio::spawn not thread::spawn . I think that is much more like goroutines (but I don't know much about those) than full threads per connection. The tokio async runtime has a fixed number of worker threads that are used to run the spawned tasks

@@darkfire2703 you are correct, they are like goroutines (with some caveats)

@FichDich InDemArsch What?

yaya! that is what i am doing on twitch.

thank you :)

Yaya

this could very well be that. Now my skills are terrible in rust, i have only spent 400 hours creating things (which shuld say a ton right there). So I bet i could make it WAY faster, but its WAY harder to do so.

I actually think this is an interesting comment. I think the “blazingly fast” aspect of rust is only half the story. The “correctness” through the expressive type system feels more powerful in enterprise software than the speed. Having never deployed a go or rust server at work, I like the idea that rust makes it much harder/impossible for me to write a certain class of bugs.

@@ThePrimeagen so thats why you wrote rust code without running `cargo fmt` before uploading...

yaya! thank you :)

I think the main takeaway I have is that go is just super fast for how easy it is. I am positive I can make a rust implementation eventually that is much faster than go. But it's very hard to get there

You'll *hate* go when you work with it

@@Anon.G why??

@@Anon.G git gud

Haskell does not have google hand picking the search results for it

I give my editor a shout out in the description. He is a great kid and amazingly talented. We have been making videos now togethre for a couple years and its really coming together these days !

Still Horrible, but better than tS; even after use Java’s aysnc and C# async as well

@@DavisTibbz java would be faster than go and proper rust code is much faster than both. The dude straight up wrote bad rust code because he isn't skilled with it.

@@SoSo7060 Java would be faster than Go??? You’re kidding right? Have you written any similar code in java and go then do benchmarks?

@@DavisTibbz For this particular case no, but there's benchmarks for other algorithms and it's a tossup between go and java while rust is much faster. I guess if you choose a handpicked algorithm and implement it really badly for rust you can get go to be faster than rust :)

yayaya!

hah. Rust is a FUN language, perhaps my fav. but its hard. go is easy, boring, and makes you lots of money.

@@ThePrimeagen Best answer 😂 Why do you think rust is fun? I think I agree for what I’ve seen, just can’t quite answer this myself…

negative. No way i am learning an fpl

@@ThePrimeagen I guess we'll never get to see theprimeagen monad

For each hundred lines of Go code you get five lines of Haskell code

yaya! c++ is ring 1 hell, but rust is like heaven ring 1. Great, better than anything on earth, but there is such better :)

@@ThePrimeagen lol, what do I know my friend, I'm still stuck here in io_uring? Who made these buffers circular: ;p

@@mattbutler2344 @ThePrimeagen An Alien Go probed my open ring buffer, and now I fee like garbage. Not threat safe at all... No-one wants to be randomly Poked, having their Ring borrowed and not checked... KY Jelly just makes the Proctologist whip in and out faster, doesn´t make it Safe...

hio! ty ty

i love go :)

@@ThePrimeagen I've been learning it off and on for a few weeks, but I think I'm going to actually commit to a deep dive of the language. It's great!

@@bradpreston9872 You'll be up and running in less than an hour. The language is extremely simple and basic. Everything just makes sense. And best of all, the simplicity never gets in your way of creating complex applications.

yaya! I love rust more, but i think go is just better

@@ThePrimeagen Why do you love it more?

its SUPER hard to get c servers very correct.

hah! be my guest :)

When handling multiple connections, you wouldn't use multiprocessing but multithreading, because threads are more lightweight and not blocked by the GIL during IO operations

its not another language, its literally v8. deno transpiles it and uses rust to go from socket -> v8. It would be a very minimal change with a very minimal result difference. BUT... everyone wont stfu about deno, so i'll try.

@@ThePrimeagen I thought Deno compiles down to Rust just like how python bolis down to C. Also if V8 understands only JavaScript then all Deno does is transpile it's code to javascript and uses Rust to hook Into the V8?

Awesome content

@@krombopuloslincler4849 that's exactly how it works. Deno is meant to be an improvement in things like security, package management, and std library. The underlying runtime/problem being solved is still the same

Tyty

agreed rust is more fun go is easier to get right

Games would use arena allocation for the use case you've described i.e. one deallocation to release them all.

@@minciNashu would that be... blazingly fast?

@FichDich InDemArsch what?

@FichDich InDemArsch do you like the gazillion open source libraries made by random dudes online that makes possible to this comment to be seen?

@FichDich InDemArsch Sure buddy

It is linked? I pretty sure its in the description (i'll fix if not). And second, i put it at the VERY end because that is the proper place to put it :) I don't want to early promote it, feelsweirdman

@@ThePrimeagen Yes, it's in the description, but youtube slows down the delivery of your videos if you say "twitch" in the video or if you have the link to twitch anywhere in the description.

yea,h, i just have to learn python first, so i would probably write some shitty code to begin with.

@@ThePrimeagen haha I'm pretty sure you'd get the hang of it in the second hour it's literally THAT easy :]

+1 for this. And on techempower's benchmarks(very comprehensive look it up), fast api held up against golang. The difference is so small that it just isn't worth ditching all the nicities of fast api for go. But for django/flask the difference is really huge, like massive.

nope

@@ThePrimeagen would be very interesting though to add Java into the mix as both have GC capabilities