i like patrick bartley's take on this where he says it's POP that needs saving, not jazz, since there's more people playing and learning jazz now more than ever.

The best part of Adam's commentary for me was the "Village Vanguard is still open" and "or you can just tune into Emmet's Place" bit. Laufrey, who only recently attended her first actual jazz gig, and a lot of her young fans, seem to think jazz is past tense, something to be rummaged through, or even saved from the throes of death, my god! That can't be further from the truth, as this community knows all too well. Jazz is thriving as much as it can in this ridiculous modern world. There's a ton of great artists out there playing incredible music and never has it been more accessible than now.

You said they may "just be becoming Laufey fans", but as long as youtube, apple music, spotify, etc. view Laufey as jazz, the algorithm will push more jazz related content to her fans. They will certainly click on some of that content and if only a small percentage of her fans end up liking what we may define as jazz, that's a big win.

Jazz is a language. If you want to learn any language you need to listen to others speak it, learn vocabulary, & emerse yourself in the culture & history. There's nothing wrong with musicians incorporating jazz into their own fusion sound. Just don't claim to be jazz musician if you haven't spent any time learning the language or you'll get called out like a hip hop artist whos never been to the hood. Respect the culture, simple as that.

I think it's fun that when Adam started talking about genre being more about the people and the culture than the music, he was unintentionally summing up the final thesis statement on Adam's (OTHER Adam) video. That Laufey isn't jazz or not jazz just because of her music itself, but that there is a disconnect between her and most of her audience and the larger jazz culture. And because he hadn't watched the video all the way through yet I think he thought what he was syaing was a counterpoint to adam (neely) when it actually alligned quite well. ps: GALA X10

GALA X 10. Thank you for the discussion! Reminds me of a quote i think Louis Armstrong said. “if you have to ask what jazz is, you’ll never know”.

As a Brazilian Gen Z, Laufey’s music sounds like Bossa Nova inspired pop to me, so much of those elements that makes my brain go like “ahhh some Tom Jobim influence moment going on here”. And it makes me extremely sad to see people my age and younger or older think that it’s a new spin to Jazz without knowing the history and where where these amazing style comes from 🇧🇷🇧🇷. Thankfully I wasn’t introduced to jazz or bossa nova like many are being today, I was just lucky I grew up listening to it 💃🏻

I was also alerted to Live from Emmet's Place by Adam Neely's rant-but-not-so-much-of-a-rant about Laufey and jazz. The very first one I saw was Samara Joy, and I was blown away. Ditto for Cyrille Aimée and Dan Wilson... After listening to these guys (I also downloaded Emmet's solo works from Apple Music), I believe that a structured melody and harmony form is the main thing that separates what vocalist like Aimée snd Joy from the popularized (and somewhat diluted) jazz that vocalists like Laufey. Listen to the original recording of "What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life", and the somewhaat rigid structure of Legrand, cleanliness of the vocals, lack of improvised melody (like Ella Fitzgerald's "Misty" when she moves from one note to the other when there is a longish rest in between), contrasting with the, say, Jim Tomlinson and Stacey Kent, or Kandace Springs. Having said that, the "labeling" of this or that does not matter at the end of the day, if someone goes ahead and tries to find "Misty", ending up with one of the greats and becomes a fan of Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Vaughan, I would say "mission accomplished."

Nice one. Peter and Adam got the pronunciation of Laufey's name right toward the end of the video after hearing Adam Neely say it a few times. It's "loy-vey". I sometimes converse with Miles through a Ouija board bequeathed to me by an old pool-hall hustler. I asked Miles about Laufey. He said not to worry, she could be a breath of fresh air in some way, a gateway through the past into the future, like some strange new Ouija board.

As a new gen z jazz fan (Galax10), i fully endorse the things u guys say bc it seriously resonates with how i've been able to get into jazz! I've been hooked onto 'live at Emmets place' and I love listening to classic records by Bill Evans and other cats; and Laufey was somewhat of a gateway to that path (even tho i liked jazz through j-pop, lofi jazz and other fusion genres). Either way, Laufey is amazing and i cannot wait to attend my first night at a jazz club!

I dig her, reminds me of Astrud Gilberto, I'm sure lots of people thought she wasn't jazz back in the day. As someone who kinda plays jazz, kinda doesn't I've actually found these conversations interesting. I'm with our Adam though at the end of the day don't let it slow you down from making music

GALA X10! I'm enjoying the discussions about Laufey going around recently. I think the point about getting away from the mindset of making labels and putting artists and genres in boxes needs to be made more often!

GALA X10! It was fun :) your content is phenomenal. Waiting for that Bill Evans episode

GALA x10. I was listening on Spotify and decided to come on to UKposts to comment. Great review as always gents - very funny and informative. I watched Adam's video last week (and really enjoyed it) and when I saw the words mid-century pop I guessed it was in relation to that video. I loved hearing your points of view on this as the subject of genre in general has always interested me. Personally, I care more about whether the music resonates with/moves me on some level rather than the specific genre people have decided to bucket it into to. Having said that I absolutely understand the need to classify - if only for the purposes of having a conversation with other people about it, exploring it's history or allowing us to find music of a similar type that may also resonate with us (the last point could have cons though if it silos your search for good music to much).

GALA x 10 Adam, Peter, really enjoyed this episode (listened to in lieu of watching) and your open discussion around A. Neely's vid, which a friend had told me about when it came out. Some really great little audio nuggets in there from both of you. Love the show!

I really enjoy the warmth from Peter and Adam. Specifically about enjoying music that you love and finding a community that enjoys the same thing.

I get why Adam is stressing "labels are bad", but when it comes to connecting with players and finding my own community I often wish there were MORE labels to reference. I don't say that I play "jazz" because many people will think we have nothing in common. I also can't reference my favorite artists because they likely won't have heard of them. So when I meet another musician (outside of a jam session) I have no words to describe my style or musical interests. I find this failing of language really frustrating in a way that makes me feel musically isolated and without a community to call my own.

GALA x10 I always enjoy these conversations with you guys. Great stuff!

"...there will be an imagined version of jazz culture that’s created that i fear will push away the culture that’s already there". Now wether you share that fear or not, I wish you had adressed it as it is the main point of Adam's video. Still, always love to tune in and hear your perspectives.

Love the Neely reaction

Thanks for the reminder, 3rd vid I’ve seen on Laufey

GALA x 10. Love the shoutout for the Live at Emmet’s Place Performances. I’ve been saying for a few years that those performances will someday be held in the same regard as the famous live recordings from the 50’s and 60’s- Live at The Village Vanguard, etc.

Great great vid, loved Neely’s and many others speaking about Laufey, and where she stands, especially where Patrick Bartley spoke about it, mentioning saving pop not jazz

GALA X10!!! Greetings from a music lover from Germany of Ghanaian descent; not sure how that has shaped my artistic values but one thing I do know 4 sure: I luv you guys and your content!!

GALA x 10 - new subscriber to this channel and just bought the Open Studio entry level (not pro) video subscription. Thanks for all you do!

GALA x10!! thanks for another fun episode guys! gr. from the Den Haag

GALAx10 I think that the point Adam (Edit: Neely :) ) was trying to make is not about what is jazz, but rather about the fact that it doesn't "need saving", and the fact that some people in Laufey's vicinity claim so is because they are removed from the community.

GALA x 10 I'm a new viewer and this was a great intro to you guys! Will be back for more!

Galax10. I think artists like her are great bridges to jazz. Regardless of whether the “jazz police” deem someone as jazz or not jazz, the fact that it is being labeled as jazz is great as it might serve as invitation to someone to explore the history of jazz. My initial interest in learning about jazz was sparked in the last 90’s by Diana Kroll. Loved her music and it led me begin exploring the whole jazz universe. 20+ years later I continue to explore, but it probably wouldn’t have ever happened if I didn’t find that “on ramp” from Diana Krall.

GALA x 10 Love your guys videos, you guys are the reason Im learning to play. Thank you both so much 🙏🙏

Thank you for mentioning the coffee cup.

GALA X10... Thanks for the 11/10 content as always guys. ❤

This type of discussion needs to be updated; from jazz history, anyone selling tons of records gets despised and labelled a sell-out or none jazz. All borders on jealousy. Jazz cannot remain a dinosaur of the arts. If we accept labels like Swing, Bee Bop, Hard Bop, Free Jazz, Cuban Jazz, and Japanese Jazz, why can't we get the new development of this art form? That is super gatekeeping and useless in the arts; our purpose as artists is to make music for the people rather than ourselves, than engage in labelling, this type of subject only appears when someone new makes a ton of money.

GALA X 10! Listening from Kansas City! Hope to make it to St. Louis soon to see you play!

Gala x 10 Great episode, Guys!

Great episode ! I grew up in small village in the north of Hamburg. My father had a great collection of records. He listened to classical music ( Brahms, Stravinsky, Mozart, Bach etc ), Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Miles Davis, Art Blakey, Pat Metheny....He worked at a newspaper and came home with records from Dollar Brand and Cecil Taylor that nobody was interested to write articles about... I just had my driving license, 18 years old and driving home in the old mercedes of my mom when I start listening to Pat Metheny Group playing live in Onkel Pö's Carnegy Hall in Hamburg on the radio. I pushed down the gas pedal and chased home like crazy to record this concert with my tape recorder and told my family to shut up and listen....Lyle Mays played a piano solo for more than 10 minutes . I still have the tape in my collection. I was to young to go to the Jazz Club's in Hamburg and never went to Onkel Pö's Carnegy Hall. It closed in 1986 when I started to discover the clubs and night life ... Different times now. I teach at a private Jazz School in Amsterdam. Everything is different now. You can watch these legendary concert's on UKposts now. I love to teach my student what to listen to... they often don't know whom to listen to. Even in times where everything is available on the internet you have to know what you are looking for....

GALAx10 - Laufey is definitely good for jazz I feel, but they're also good for jazz influences flowing into other genres in general.

GALA x 10 Regardless of genre, I’m grateful for the world’s wonderful talent. Thank you for the stimulating discussions, fellas.

I think the disconnect is that within the jazz community, we are expected to be at least somewhat conversant in a lot of different styles of jazz. Everyone has their personal favorites, but a bebop fan who knows absolutely nothing about bossa wouldn’t be considered a very serious jazz fan. But of course all the different subgenres of jazz sound REALLY different from each other. Fusion doesn’t really have any sonic characteristics in common with stride. I have some nephews who are in their early 20s, squarely Gen Z. And they just really like bossa and mid century pop. I played them some bebop to see if they’d like it, and it’s just not what they’re into. Bossa is trending, bebop isn’t, because they are totally different sounds. So now we’re judging Gen Z because they like Laufey but not Emmet Cohen, and they just don’t see it that way, because why would they consider those the same genre if they don’t sound the same and one is a “cool” sound and the other isn’t?

Thank you Adam Manes for being so inclusive. Respect!🤩 When I saw the video of Adam Neely, I had the same reaction as you. Let us explore and grow as musicians, without the hovering gate keepers. We are all just trying to balance humbleness with joy. When I was in high school, an 86 year old harmony teacher told us: “The more you learn, the more humble you become”.

This channel is a goldmine

GALA x 10 wonderful!!👍👍👍 Greetings from Germany🤩

Galax10. Gotta say I really enjoyed the conversation, I secretly hope that the future episodes will be as long, if not longer than this one.

GALA x10 Great as always.

GALA x10 baby wooo, love Adam’s point about how smothering labels and distinguishing can be to creativity, music especially is soo gray

I'll tell you guys THIS right now: As good as Neely's video was - and it totally was - I think y'all actually just topped it. This is one of the best musical discussions I've had the pleasure to observe in a LONG time.

I think Adam might be overplaying the "just play what you love" idea. In one sense of course that can be true insofar as its true for you. But its also bordering on basically useless as a concept. Maybe it has to do with the fear of killing creativity or leading to stereotyping or whatever else but at bottom it just doesn't mean anything. Not to get too philosophical but the reason we have categories including the category of musical genres is because that's exactly how language works in the first place. There's no actually boundary lines anywhere in nature and even if there were they would only be momentary because everything is in constant flux and change. But we humans have the remarkable ability to imagine distinct boundaries and then distinct objects which fall into distinct categories of things all of which are concepts in our own minds that we can give a label to. For instance we can hold a clump of clay that has been practically burnt to a crisp and call it a brick. We can stack these bricks on top of each other then call it a wall. We can make it really long then call it a fence or put up four walls then seal off the top with a roof and call it a house. Once we move in and become familiar with it we can call it home. Its still all just burnt and hardened clay, there is no such things as walls or houses or fences in nature. Its all just different arrangements of the same thing. HOWEVER We use language to name those different arrangements because its very very useful for us to do so. Its in fact what makes us human and is how we can progressively make more concepts which lead to hopefully more useful things. So even though its true that you can show up to your first brick laying job and say things like "it's all just clay man, does it really matter what we call it, its all just clay, theres no right or wrong way to play with clay" it will just show others that you're not a very useful employee. They need you to understand what a wall is in detail and know how to construct any size that the plans call for. They need you to know the difference between different styles of brick laying and different artistic styles because that's what the expectation is of their customers. This is already becoming waaay longer than I intended but I hope the comparison to music isnt to hard to see from the above examples. Whatever opinion we have about music and what we think it should be is entirely besides what the majority think it is and how it should be categorized. This really hasn't been an issue in musical genres up to this point in time. There was Baroque then classical then romantic period music where the boundaries are very fuzzy between the genres but nevertheless are very useful for people to use. They want to refer to a particular thing, a particular style of music and they need a word for it. Its as simple as that. There ultimately isn't any definitive definition to any of that categorization but that doesnt mean its not useful. Jazz isn't an exception and its not even up to the people that invented it or consider it an important part of their existence in the first place. Its up to all of society that uses the same language to categorize it in a way that's useful. People might not for instance want to hear what they think is random squeaking and squawking on a saxophone but instead what they heard in a French Noir film. They dont care what Charlie Parker thought his music should be called or how far out it should extend to include other music, all people want is to know what that sound is called so it can be a useful distinction between other sounds they recognize. Ones "early bebop", the other is "cool jazz". Then they can say "Great, early bebop all sounds the same to me, not a huge fan, but this cool jazz stuff I really like, now I know which is which." Someone trying to convince them otherwise isn't going to work. If the masses recognize it as a distinct thing and have a name for it, its going to stick going forward because its useful that way. Romanticizing jazz to be whatever is in your heart is going to end badly for those that really believe that because fewer and fewer people care about the past and are focused on what is happening in the now. Thats what jazz exactly was, something invented in the now, but over 100 years ago. We're in a different now where young people are creating what's meaningful to them and is a lifestyle for them. This is just how it works and has worked for centuries and millenia of using language and classifying things into different categories. Ok thanks for reading my TED talk, bye.

I feel about this same as I feel about politics, when I was younger I wished more people were into politics so the world would be better and more people are now into politics but now I wish way less people were into politics lol. Same here, we THINK we want everyone to love jazz cuz we want good music to be popular but be careful what you wish for. It ends up more like popular music becoming good not the other way around. I think we're in a good sweet spot right now. In the end listen or play what you love and forget about labels. Play what you hear and make it your own. Appreciate you guys! Gala x10

Gala x 10. Nice ep

GALA X10, Thank you !

GALA x10 Definitely agree that "what is jazz" is a mostly pointless discussion, but "is new artist saving jazz?" is a question that desperately needed the framework and perspective that adam gave it

GALAx10 and was already paid up(subscribed). possibly funniest episode yet watching Adam get so pissed off 😂

Galax10 lmao, wishing you some quick growth with this channel.

GALA x10 - good discussion 👌🏻

Gala x10, Greetings Peter and Adam from your neighbors across the state #KCJazzALIVE. Loving your podcast. Keep up the good work. I just saw Samara Joy Saturday night at our Folly Theater. She was awesome. Probably the best concert I have seen there since Chick Corea and Gary Burton back in the early 90's. Samara Joy is the future of jazz. Not Laufey. That said if she can bring GenZ to the music, more power to her. Maybe she has something all of us jazz advocates need to learn.

GALA x10 dope vid ! 🤙🏼

GALA x 10 Thanks!

Guys.. I think that coming from Guangzhou and mother and grandfather as musicians.. she possibly grew up listening to old records ( typical of Chinese people when I lived there) from 1930s of Shanghai Jazz singers, which went on the HK and Taiwan in the 60-80s . Is it jazz. Is it pop? Some of her songs have that vibe to it.. Even today many old “classics” of Shanghai are sung in Sino English by many singers in China. Let’s face it.. music is the vibe here and whomever and from wherever in whatever in any decade.. it comes is all about music.. old is new and new is old..

Love the city croma. So professional, the cars passing don't even repete once! ( haha xD)

GALAx10 ... Thanks from a Boomer who needs to know such Gen Z musical life and language (especially when with such deep historical roots)

The point about these questions of category is not about a specific, fitting a category (Oy vey, is Laufey Jazz?). Rather it is an opportunity to see if the category is usefully defined. Terminology must fully preserve its historical lineage and historical utility, but we are allowed to see if it can grow a little. Musical universes only ever expand.

If I were Laufey I wouldn't want to be given the responsibility of "saving Jazz." I'd rather have the freedom to create what I'd like without pressure. GALAx10

GalaX10. I live in a small European city with a great musical traditition spanning decades or even centuries and covering all kind of genres. The birthplace of flamenco and, at the same time, of some of the best rock, pop and indie artist this side of the Atlantic. And, of course, there is a magnificent jazz community. Genres are just, as Adam say, a human simplification to facilitate communication, but means nothing. Communities, and the merge of information and culture bits between them, are what really matters

Categories are the way we understand the world and they aren’t mere labels. Adam comes back to this topic again and again despite his protestations because he is struggling to work out a consistent position on these questions.

33:17 in regards to the old people possibly saying that listening to jazz only through the internet, I used to go see live jazz in a club (didn’t have to be 18/21) in my hometown every Thursday. After COVID, the place was fatally wounded and was killed off by the hurricane. For someone that wants to watch live jazz in my hometown, where can one go now except for the internet? This was the only club/bar that would host music like this, so the internet was the only place left to go

I latched onto this discussion after watching a Patrick Bartley response to Adam Neely. My first thought was... gotta get you'll hear it to discuss this. I was thinking we used to have Pops and Lady Day and now we have Laufrey and Nearly boy. I guess there's more to it... ? Emet's place and Patrick Bartley and Open Studio and Bob Reynolds show we're in a good place. Just listen to a bit of Chris Potter. The flame is bright. "Never mind the bollocks" bros.

im not sure if any big questions were answered here but i think we can all agree the entire video was at least worth Adams pain and discomfort 😂

Gala x10! Top🚀

One of my favorite "jazz" pieces of all times was the arrangement you two did of "Constant Craving" - because it was a pop song I recognized. If jazz standards were on Name That Tune I'd score zero - those just aren't songs I'm interested in. Was your arrangement jazz? Or "late-century pop?"

woah these two have a podcast? very cool. i never learned jazz but im a pop music lover who wants to inject some jazz. most jazz teachers on the internet are just telling me stuff thats over my head and ill never use. but these two have showed me how i can tell my pop music stories more tastefully!

One interesting question that Adam Neely asks & you didn't get into here: Why does it matter to people whether Laufey is jazz or not? And what does it mean to them to include or exclude her from jazz?

I agree with Adam. Just play you definitions don't matter. If others dig it great, if not, great, also...

It’s not completely unimportant whether it’s Jazz or not: most young people (or people) are generally not into Jazz and all that Jazz has to offer. If anything Laufey gives them the opening for enjoying certain musical language and they’re of the opinion it’s Jazz - so now some (or many) of them could ir will want to try to listen to other things in the jazz genre - they will discover a new way to listen to music other than just the usual chart or Ticktock stuff…! This is definitely good for music. For me personally, I‘ve always thought of Jazz as music, that is to a very large degree improvised and uses musical language, that generally bases on the jazz vocabulary, but also all musical vocabulary.

GALA X10!!

GALA10X ... what's tge electric piano sound at the end

GALAx10. I'd like to see you guys play some Laufey tunes. There are definitely worse standards than most of her songs so why not. In fact, make an album. Peter and Adam play Laufey. ... and get Adam Neely to do a couple of tracks on it with you too.

Let’s say Jazz is now (if it hasn’t always been that) the present or current (in live historical collective consciousness) improvisational multi genre global phenomenon that has improvisation in its centre, for structuring musical narrative, And from the personal capacity and attributes, and collective experience resulting in what we call jazz performance. It could be described also by its function: Could say; Used to celebrate personal emancipation (maturity), or freedom and individuality as a medium in musical expression, in the multitude of personal ways and resulting musicality from the collaboration among the musicians and attributes collaborating. And Global being the main word to describe the collaborative aspect of jazz that keeps growing and diversifying.

There is a natural tendency for artists to "mine" historic references to arrive at their own conclusions and contributions...the study of art history never ends, formally or informally

GALAX10 🖤🖤

He (Adam) probably referenced Chet Baker because he SANG the line.

gala x10 nice episode guys

GALA x 10. Great stuff, didn’t mind the long video - could hear y’all for hours. And can’t music just be classified as good and bad and just appreciate its value? Genre association has always bothered me.

GALA x 10 I think Adam Neely is interesting because I don't necessarily think he's right, but somehow his way of thinking seems to come from a similar place as to why I myself gradually started listening to a lot more jazz and jazz inspired music in the last 6-8 years I'd say. For context I'm 22 and have for the longest time felt a need to police my own thoughts and opinions, because I subconsciously have a dislike for the status quo. Very similar reason as to why I'm really into Retro or Indie games instead of anything too popular or expensive releasing today. All of that is to say that I don't think Adams Video is coming from the right place at all. But I do appreciate finding Emmet's place through that video and I'm sure Laufey might have found some new fans as well.

20:30 This is what it's all about

GALA x10 I do think that labels have some use. Less so for people as they make art, but certainly for historians, students, and future generations. For instance, it would be hard to understand poetry, study it, and then to build on its history if we had no way to separate epics from sonnets and analyze them accordingly.

GALA 10 (Linda from Florida)

The “is-is not” issue was covered by Wittgenstein. Rather than definitions, things have more or less family resemblance to each other. Bright lines are less useful.

GALA x10!

Who cares about the nomenclature ? Laufey's music is good She is a good singer and seems to always puts her presence when she sings!

The Village Vanguard would let us in when we were just 17, in the mid 80s.

galax10 if a genre is just a group of people, is everything just about cliques and in-groups? i actually agree with adam neeley and you re:connecting with the present-day jazz community, but if hypothetically, andother artist in a remote place plays the tunes but would never even think to go to a jazz club, are they also not "jazz"?

I’m glad that “categories and labels don’t matter” and that they are “creativity killers” despite having an entire business with over a thousand videos dedicated to educating people and showing the fine details of jazz. My bad, I meant to say reggae. Even at 28:10 Adam defends the idea of king cole being a jazz musician which implies he does know what jazz is and agrees that nat king cole should be in that category of a jazz musician. My bad, I meant to say punk musician. Adam is still stuck before the Bronze Age and doesn’t realize (even while being a teacher) how to use a categories as tools instead of “creativity killers” and could be used to aim at a sound you want. Hopefully he realizes that “genres are bullshit“ is also a label.

I did watch it all, and I watched Adam's video. You guys are tuned in! I'm from a generation before they invented the alphabet. For me - the less danger there is, the less jazz it is.

GALA X 10!

I came here to say the term "pickle ball curious" in my favourite of 2023 - I think Peter Martin should do an album and call it Pickleball Curious and then tour it so he can go on the pickle ball curious tour. For the record I am now pickleball curious

GALA x10 !!!!

Gala X 10!

sounds like jazz to me

From what I heard it sounds like antique revival music ... but I could be wrong ...

paraphrasing.. “Labels are killing the genre “…. “Is Samara Joy Jazz?” “Yes”……🤣☠️👀 I get it. It’s interesting because it seems there is no middle ground. Insanely great players and people that can barely play hate classification. Musicians don’t like to be judged yet we are the MOST judgemental. Anyone who spends the majority of their lives studying and struggling to perfect their craft judge… even if they don’t put it out there. But… still hilarious. Love the content. ✌🏾