Thank you!

Thank you.. Glad it was helpful..

I Agee. Very good explanation

DITTOOOOOO

Finally, a well done explanation. Thank you very much.!

You are very welcome.. @@yvesduranceau123

I started as an electrical helper when I was a teen, learned 3-ways & 4-ways from the guy I worked for which was in his 60's then. Been state licensed since 1993, electrical contractor for many years and over 20 years as an engineer. Still show 3-ways & 4-ways wired this way.

@@chrism2042 I started out in pinballs and juke boxes.

Thank you sir.. I do my best.

Yeah, I finally understand how to wire a three-way after watching this!

I like to print-out the best representation of the way I wired a 3- or 4-way loop and tuck copies in each switchbox or by the cellar lamp, where The Next Guy is sure to find it. "always takes me longer to watch the videos 4 times than actually wire it in." True that. I learn better from well-drawn drawings. Although that could mean flipping every wiring book in the library, cuz some are/were just awful. Now books are going out of style. BM's video is pretty good, and I thank him for that. But if you go to a yard sale for deals on workpants or moosetraps, see if they have 50-cent wiring books.

What I have done to retain memory of how Three and Four way wiring systems work is to make a working model of one on a panel of plywood. The model even has a breaker box with breakers on it. The breaker box simply plugs into an outlet for power. This gives me a micro model to view when my memory on how to wire things up starts to fade. The model actually works and turns on a light bulb from two different switches. To make the models I go to Menards and buy and use the actual wire, gang boxes, outlets, bulb receptacle, breaker box with breakers that one would use in a house. Each model costs me about $45 to make. The breaker box alone is about a $20 cost. I just use a small two breaker box. Not a full sized one. I bolt the model to a wall, plug the models breaker box into an outlet and actually use it at times for lighting. I also make a very detailed color drawing on graph paper of the model's wiring system that is mounted on the wall next to the model. Is great to have when teaching my grandkids about electrical wiring concepts.

Thank you.. Glad to help.

I'll make another video showing the Chicago and California methods. I didn't want to confuse anyone.

Thank you..

Thanks. Happy to help.

The hardest part is FINDING a 4-way switch! Most of the hardwares stores here don't have them...except for that ONE odd store that's the furthest away.

@@TonyP9279 Well yeah that would suck, if you don’t have an electrical supply house or a big box store, I guess the only answer there is to keep a few on hand

@@TonyP9279 Well you could use two 3-ways in a double box to get 4-way functionality . Link them with their commons together .

@@TonyP9279 Or I suppose you could try to tell them that odd numbers of switch locations have been outlawed . So you need to install 4 locations ... thereby you can use only 3 way switches . With the 2 middle of the line ones , being only connected with a single conductor on their commons . Hehe lol . But then of course can just wire nut the two travelers till the 4-way shows up in the mail . Edit: Scratch that about four 3-way switches being able to work . Was before enough morning coffee and thought I was being clever . Ya obviously the 2 switch combo won't let power through for the last leg switch position to function for turning the light on ... Duh :\

My pleasure.

My pleasure. Thanks for watching.

The Chicago includes a Tommy gun and the California an emissions test, right?😮

My pleasure.. Thank you for watching.

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching

My pleasure.

Thanks so much.

This old retired electrician is still old school. Don't need smart switches.

@@johnirwin1837 I don't need them now. But I'm 73 years old and want the house I'm remodeling to be my forever home. Smart switch technology will allow me to operate all of the electronics from anywhere. I'm also putting in curbless showers, wider doors, hardwood floors, lever door handles, and pull down kitchen shelves. Plus, the 2023 code requires that the wiring meet the current code if the walls are open and exposed which they are.

​@@johnirwin1837 Some smart switches are nice for scheduling lighting on-off times (and brightness), particularly for exterior lights.

@@rickgilbrt True, but I am still old school and old so I won't be using them in my next little wiring project. In 10 to 15 years if the next guy wants them they can install them on their dime.

You bet.. Thanks for watching.

I once encountered a BATHROOM (house built in 19:90 in California) that had two switches (one for the lights and one for the exhaust fan), went to replace the light/fan unit, discovered they only ran a single 14 gauge two wire romex to that device and used the black for the light power, the white for the fan power, and the unshielded ground for common for both with NO grounding - talk about confusing and a code violation.

@@ragtowneLet's hope they didn't do the same in the main panel! [gee this 2/0 white wire is expensive, let's just use this 6ga ground wire here!]

It will also raise havoc if someone tries to upgrade to GFCI; trying to figure out why the breaker won't stay in, or where the fault is...

@@ragtowne I've seen a substantially more dangerous hack job while helping my stepfather rewire his 1973 rambler. Aluminum wiring throughout, 70 amp Zinsco panel in a bedroom closet, as can be expected in a home built during that period. The thing that tipped us off was seeing 2 wire 12 gauge landscape lighting wire used to power the 4500 watt 40 gallon electric water heater, dad turned off the main so I could cut the wire so it could be removed and replaced with a proper 10-2 NM and a 2 pole 30 amp toggle switch since the unit wasn't within sight of the panel. I got a loud bang and vaporized about a half inch hole in my side cutters, turns out a previous owner had tapped that landscape light wire on the line side of the main, so that wire which ran in the crawlspace for almost the length of the house had no overload or short circuit protection, other than the primary fuse on the pole. The 3 way switches in the hallway were wired with feed at the light, and 12/2 Aluminum NM was dropped from the light box one to each 3 way switch, metal boxes. They were using the black as the common, and the white and ground as the travellers, with the bare "ground" traveller resting against the metal switch boxes . Since the old galvanized iron water lines were to be replaced with pex pipe anyways, we stripped the house down to the studs and started over from scratch. That was would have been in 2005 and being 16 at the time, found it very educational and rewarding. Sadly that feeling of satisfaction came to a screeching halt when we lost the house to foreclosure in late 2007 because Dad had taken out an adjustable rate mortgage when he brought the place in early 2005 and was unable to afford the mortgage once the introductory APR ended.

@@Sparky-ww5re Moved into our 1945 house with mostly BN wire throughout. Had a problem with the lights dead in the Master Bedroom the first night (we viewed the house twice, in the daytime AND the inspector we paid for never checked the lights and plugs!?!). Took a look in the attic and found the BN cable powering the MB leg had cracked at a bend and bare wires broken through the rubber insulation had parted. Decided rewiring was required. Have gone through about 80 percent of the house and replace all with NM and UF so far, to 2017 code (bought the house in 2015). Added back all the grounds, etc. Still need to replace the switch CB's with AFCI's but that's a big ticket item for a retiree, and with new, copper throughout, not that worried. To your topic, was working on a BN three wire run, to break out light power onto new NM wire, killed the circuit breaker to that light, went to cut the cable and POP, modified my cutters to have the same stripper notch you describe. :-) Found out that the Red wire was being used, not as a three way, but as a piggy back, power wire, to another part of the house on a different (30 amp) breaker. They were using the white neutral for both circuits. One more room left to finish rewiring, the Media (old living room) room, and then we'll be done. It's a shame he had lost the house, People that pushed ARM's should have been jailed or worse. Take Care!!!

That's relatively unimportant. The important part is that you lose neutral at the light switch, making it a HUGE pain in the ass, and IMO, has always been a hard NO. but, 90% of electricians past and present suck and I wouldn't trust them to ever do any of my electrical work.

I've never understood the logic of wiring the power to the fixture, then running a cable to the switch. Much more logical to do as you say.

@@r7boatguySaves money, time, and wire. That being said I wouldn’t do it in my own house. All my switches were wired that way when I got the place, most of them been replaced now. I did just help a friend completely rewire his house and we did the switches with no neutral. He was more concerned with money and wire.

No I always feed the hot and neutral at the light box it's much easier in Florida since we have no basements. All the wires come down from the attic. You would use more wire feeding the hot and neutral at the switch location. You would have double wire going back to the light. 73 feeding wires down a wall are always a chore. 73

​@espressomatic so what you are saying is you are the god of electricity. What a rube.

Thank you!

Glad it helped. Thanks for watching.

Thank you..

Yup you can do that but you're still just extending the switched power which will have to get back to switch one to actually turn on your light.

Does the 4-way still have a neutral this way?

And another interesting note is in Europe a 3-way switch is called a 2-way switch which if you think about it makes much more sense.

​@@stargazer7644if true, Europe is basing the name off of the number of locations, while here in the States we base it off of the number of wires required for the switch to function. A 3-way switch will always and only function with 3 wires. 4-ways will always and only function with 4 wires. If you wanted you can have 20 switches to work a single light. All it would take are 2 3-ways and 18 4-ways.

@@TheForgottenMan270 So why is the word "way" included? I rather think Europeans call them 2 way switches because the switch selects one of two ways current can go out of the switch. American 4 way switches are called intermediate switches in Europe, not 3 way switches.

wow you almost made it a full 60 seconds before screwing this up. First it was NEVER legal to reflag any conductor less than #6 under the code period. Second white is not nor ever has been the designation of "neutrals" white has always had the designation "grounded current carrier" and had a specific exception for this application therefor no reflagging of the white conductor in this configuration was implied or proper even if the wire were #6 (you only ever mark some other color TO white NEVER white to something else EVER PERIOD don't do it it is a mistake. The same is true for green and the section on marking is VERY detailed and exact in this regard with shall and must playing a large part in the descriptions and circumstances listed) As to the change? it is moot to me , my experience is that wiremen have been feeding at the switch or even home running from such boxes for 50 years or more as simply good practice and rarely if ever used switch loops and only in closets and crawl spaces where the use of powered devices is uncommon...also this change does not solve the grandfathered installations none of which are required to be upgraded to meet this code so the problem still exists and will always exist in some capacity.

But are you being paid by this product to promote it? Be aware of the legal troubles Dave Ramsey is in for not letting his many followers that trust him to promote products know that he is also paid by the companies that are being promoted. Just a helpful tip as you are very helpful to us here in video land!

Thanks.. I have to be careful. I'm covered by the paid promotion text at the top of the video screen and of course I have to say that this video is sponsored by whom ever is paying me to promote a product. @@mostthoughtprovoking1494

Why would people run a switch loop when power can be feed from the switch itself?

For dead end, why can't you run an additional 12-2 between SW1 & SW2? Tlhis would give you the needed black hot and cap the whites should a neutral ever be needed in SW2 or code change required.

Thank you Sir.. Much appreciated.

My pleasure! Thanks for watching.. I really appreciate comments like yours. Thank you.

California three way has no neutral at any switch. And a Chicago three way can have power at the light even when it's off or also reverse polarity

I was curious too and looked them up. Chicago has two separate connections to the light and both switch hot and neutral. If it's neutral from both or hot from both (!) then the light is off. California just switches the hot but has three travelers, with T1, T2, and common all wired together. T2 goes to the hot side of the light and T1 goes to the hot. Neutral goes to the light.

@@Melds This apparently is also called Carter three way. It was banned a hundred years ago. Sin short the witches were reversed so that the power came (to both) from the side with two contacts and the sides with one contact went to the light. Since it was the knob and tube era with single wire cables that made some sense though the risk is obvious. With modern cables that would make no sense at all.

Great suggestion! I'll make a video on those two methods as well.

@@BackyardMaine Thanks, you're videos are very helpful, also, I know the code also says that all outlets, gfci not withstanding, have to be replaced with the arc fault circuit type, hopefully you can do a video on that as well

Dustin (Electrician U) shows them in some detail if you're interested, in his description of 3-way switch methods.

@@surferdude642 Thanks, that is an excellent video at Electrician U.

I think the Chicago method comes with a Tommy gun😲🤔

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.

I will make another video on the other two methods. Stay tuned. I know the method you're talking about. It's rare but I have seen it. Usually done when someone wanted to add a couple of 3-ways to control a light that was originally on a single pole. I'll add that as well.

My pleasure.

Thank you.

Well done video! Same question though - why 12 gauge wire for lighting circuit?

Not required if the circuit breaker is 15A or less.

4/2 if fine if on a 15A circuit breaker. I didn't want to say 14/2 and have someone connect that to a 20A circuit.

4/2 if fine if on a 15A circuit breaker. I didn't want to say 14/2 and have someone connect that to a 20A circuit.

The younger generations love controlling things with their home assistant or with their phones. The issue was that its difficult to get a neutral to the box later and its very easy and inexpensive to do it during the original installation. From a safety standpoint people were connecting the neutral to the ground wire. It would work but create a hazard by having current flow on the ground.

NFPA owns NEC. I was a career firefighter for 23 years. During that time I purchased 4 fire apparatus, fire hose and other items for our department. During that time I learned how NFPA has a seat at the table for manufacturers. They are continually trying to create mandatory short term lives for equipment and the list goes on and on. Luckily in the fire service the AHJ is given the final word, with the NEC many jurisdictions blindly adopt it and the enforcement parties are often thise who have spent Weeks and Weeks (haha) training (as opposed to retired Journeyman electricians)

@@spudth Re: short-term lives. Now that I'm old enough to have bought electronic equipment and have it later fail due to age, I agree that code shouldn't be requiring any devices with an expected lifespan less than 60 years. IMO that should mean no devices that contain electrolytic capacitors or flash/EPROM memory.

I never used a little bit of black tape taped all white with black tape or permanent black marker.

That's going to be whatever the local AHJ is looking for because the code isn't specific.@@barrythomas529

Noooooooooo!

LMAO 🤣🤣🤣

Okay Ron Swanson... 😅😂

Maybe because it allows more options for future upgrades. For example if needing to add an electrical outlet or other powered device, hot neutral and ground could be obtained from a switch box if nothing else in the area is available. Reason 2 simplicity and reliability of not using relays/contactors when a single pole switch could be used. I realize those aren't super strong arguments but since when does the NEC use solid reasoning for everything

That is what I am doing on my current project . Centralized power conversion to low voltage . And running LV wire to all switches and lights which include communications.

Switches are incredibly durable and, being inside a junction box within a wall, rarely need replacement. In the event one does need to be replaced, you need to kill the breaker. (Depending on local codes, this can be a massive pain.) Light fixtures are (usually) fully exposed - not only are they more vulnerable to damage, but also frequently changed for aesthetic reasons. This is in addition to using fragile bulbs which need regular replacement and sometimes break in a manner which exposes live voltage. This is why live voltage is run only to switches and outlets - NOT to fixtures. When the switch is turned off, there is ZERO voltage going to the fixture(s).

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@twylanaythiasWhat? Would you please explain how it’s a major pain to turn off the breaker to a light in a home with modern wiring?

@@guri256 With rare exceptions (like most kitchens), each breaker controls an entire room. Clocks, TVs, computers, and everything else in the room running on AC is going down/out when you turn off the breaker. Assuming, of course, that you flip the right breaker the first time - breakers are commonly mislabeled, assuming that they're even labeled in the first place. Even if you live by yourself (no kids to complain about not being able to play video games, partner to be upset about not being able to use their computer, all of them complaining because the internet is off, etc), it can be a real hassle to get everything back up and running, clocks reset, etc. Add to this the operating assumption that nothing ever goes 100% as planned (particularly when it involves working on someone else's work), you can see how quickly a 'simple repair' can turn into a massive headache.

Much appreciated. 🇺🇸

Awesome.. Thanks for watching.

It only applies to new construction and only once your state adapts the 2023 code. The issue has been that in the absence of a neutral wire people connect to the ground wire creating a safety hazard. I always wire with the neutral in the switch box anyway so for many people of us it's a non issue.

From my experience, the only people whose lives will be made miserable by this change are people who run their hot conductor to the fixture instead of to the switch. But in my experience of having never actually encountered that type of wiring I have to say this rule change won't affect that many people.

Shits helpful I just I installed a bathroom fan that had a light and speaker and the switch wanted that white wire

Like 10 minutes and 10 bucks more chill

​@@Dwayne_Bearupdoes that matter with A/C electric. The circuit you mentioned would just keep the light powered on, no?

Seriously. I'm an amateur, just learning to diy electrical, and I think switch loops are ridiculous. Just ripped out a couple switch loops and replaced with 2023 NEC code compliant wiring, without even knowing the new code, because Duh???

So if the breaker panel is on the north side of a room and the switch is on the south side to control a light on the north side of the room, you want me to run two different 12/2 cables all the way across the room? Sorry, that is silly. You just run a dead end, and usually I would wire it with 12/3 just in case I wanted the neutral there for some later rework. This change to the code just makes this previous nice to have a requirement.

I just don’t understand why you just don’t run a 3 wire to the switch and you have the neutral wire in the box if you need it and you are only running one cable

As @sdkee said, this can require many feet of extra wire in the current carrying path. It also puts an extra splice in the load's neutral and ground connections. For some switched loads this might drop too much voltage or waste too much power. For all, it adds copper cost.

I think part of the issue these days is that copper costs about the same as a crack habit.

My pleasure. Thanks for watching.

My pleasure 😊

It actually is about safety. If you have a neutral wire you won’t connect the neutral wire on the switch to ground creating a hazard. Similar to requiring receptacles every 12 feet to keep people from using extension cords. It’s about safe and adequate insulations for the consumer and nothing else.

It’s all about the money jamescole$ just like arc fault breakers.

Go to electrical school if you want to know, it's about saftey. Needing a neutral is not only for saftey but also allows for future switches that may be installed.

@@leif901-5 it’s about money, control, and power. Nothing to do with actual safety for people. Who do you think profits from wifi connected smart light switches? Not regular people.

This is absolutely about SAFETY. It is more evident in commercial settings, where the color of conductors can be a factor and upgrades to facilities (i.e. added devices/ loads) require better more than just what was standard decades ago. This will also save homeowners thousands of $ because they won't have to demo finished material just to add a few devices. Just because someone benefits monetarily from a change doesn't mean that the change was for money.

Glad you think so! Thanks for watching

Glad it helped!

Wow, thanks! Much appreciated. More to come.

Ive been hearing that in the comments. I'll make another video.

Don't show these guys the suicide 3 way please. You're going to really get someone hurt. You've shown all that they need. If they want to know more they need to do an apprenticeship. Someone's gonna get hurt.

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching

My pleasure! Thanks for watching..

So nice of you. Thanks for watching my friend.

I do the same. Hopefully a little less confusing for the next guy

Awesome.. Thanks for watching.

My pleasure. Thanks for watching..

Glad you enjoyed it! More to come.

Thank you.. Glad it was helpful!

Thank you and thanks for watching.

My pleasure.

Thanks for sharing

Thank you.. Much appreciated.

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.

Glad it was helpful!

Thank you!

Ahh yes ladder logic. I have worked with that for decades. Mostly AB PLCs.

Yep. AB slc 500 through the latest RSLogix (which just confuses me)

@@truthsayers8725 Before I left we upgrade our RODI water plant for SLC 500 to RSLogic. It was a nightmare because the plant runs 24x7 We bring everything over in little pieces and TIs risk tolerance for an unexpected shutdown was 0%.

My pleasure. Thank you.

You bet. Thanks for watching

My pleasure.. Thanks for watching.

You bet.. Thanks for watching.

FWIW there are smart switches that don't require a neutral. They always allow small amount of current through to remain on, so low-wattage bulbs might flicker, but a bypass can be added. I have a lot of inovelli switches in my 1940 house and they were simple to install.

It is probably a question of where is power coming from. If power is running through the attic, it seems natural to lower a loop just to a switch. If power is distributed from the basement, then run through switch and then up to the fixture would be obvious thing to do.

When there's no neutral, you can still install smart switches, just not those that combine the user-facing side and the electricity-switching side in one unit. Rewire the distribution box to feed all wires through on the same colour, add a user-facing switch to the switch box that now has live and neutral, and add a head-less smart switch (relay) to the light fixture (or inside the distribution box) that now has unswitched live and neutral. However, you lose the ability to control the lights at the switch when the home automation fails.

Just take a screenshot from the video for the diagram you think you need.

Thank you.. I'm going to build some guides in the near future. Stay tuned.

As a handyman you probably aren't licensed as an electrician. You may be allowed to change out switches and receptacles and be compliant with licenseing laws, but once you start adding circuits and more receptacles and switches and other outlets you should be licensed.

Awesome, thank you!

Yes I can. I actually have that on my Idea list. Stay turned..

I never saw a marker for the hot line with the bare wire running in the baseboard. ahhh those were the days..... Don't have to strip the insulation off when you sell the copper.

I appreciate that! Thanks for watching.

Thank you! Glad you liked the video.. The paint is Valspar from Lowes. The beige is called Oregon Coast Interior Eggshell. The Gray is called Notre Dame Interior Eggshell. The colors were bought about 15 years ago so I'm not sure if they are offered by the same name today. I have leftover paint so I was able to get the colors for you. Hope this helps.

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.

Awesome, thank you!

In the standard you have two travelers. In California 3-way you have also a third wire that is always hot.

I'll make another video showing the Chicago and California method.

Thank you my friend.. I hope all is well up north and spring will be coming soon.

I prefer it that way anyways. Then you still have a neutral @ all the switch boxes incase you ever need/want a switch that needs it there.

@@KjKase It is obviously more versatile. The question is whether one's old house is wired this way ....

@@KjKase Without changing where the wiring goes, you'll never need it. Only one of the switches will have the relay that switches the load; this frees up the travellers to feed live and neutral to all other boxes to power the "send command only" smart switches.

@@HenryLoenwind What if I want switches that light up at night?

​@@dmitripogosian5084 I know mine isn't... It sucks, but I'm not going to rip out the drywall to do it the way I'd prefer lol.

Thank you very much!