OUT OF THE TOMBS?! Legacy Out of the Tombs (Warhammer 40K MTG)

День тому

I play a Magic: the Gathering Online Legacy league with a deck built around Out of the Tombs from Warhammer 40K. The original build hoped to assemble an infinite combo with Out of the Tombs, Magosi the Waterveil, and Nesting Ground to take infinite turns. That deck idea was ambitious though, so we'll be trying an Out of the Tombs Maverick style deck instead. We're hoping to fuel Tarmogoyf, Elvish Reclaimer, Grist, and Fiend Artisan using this card.
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0:00 MATH
11:07 Deck Tech
13:43 Round 1
25:11 Round 2
43:03 Round 3
54:44 Round 4
1:05:42 Round 5
1:19:51 Conclusion
#mtg
#mtglegacy
#magicthegathering

КОМЕНТАРІ: 92

@estlinallen4342 9 днів тому

This is excellent, Phil. My favorite part about magic is deckbuilding, and one reason I keep checking on your channel is because you emphasize that aspect more than most content creators. Hope you keep it up.

@kevink.8809 13 днів тому

The in depth math discussion was really cool. I’m well acquainted with hypergeometric calculators, but that was my first time seeing one that can handle the math on an A+B combo, which I really appreciate for any future deck building. Really really love the discussions on deck building theory!!

@PurpleDragonSpike 9 днів тому

Just reading this before watching and I'm already hype as fuck

@Alikaoz 9 днів тому

I have a very boring and busy work day ahead, and 2 monitors. I'm ready for this, Phil.

@ghostlygun2138 9 днів тому

Magosi, the Waterveil is a card well beloved by me, and I greatly appreciate you taking a look at it (even though it was too jank to stick with). Not only because I think the card deserves more attention, but also because I've been looking for more ways to make the most out of it in edh in particular. I mostly don't pay much attention to the universes beyond stuff, so your making me aware of Out of the Tombs' existence has been quite a boon.

@ryuk202 9 днів тому

That line you had in round 4 game 2 was amazing. Probably the best part of playing Maverick is the cool lines

@Niko-sy1sd 9 днів тому

Upon hearing the opening combo i immediately went to a Lands shell. That might be quite nice, it runs a lot of tutors, 2 of the 3 combo pieces are lands and milling fuels life from the loam and i am sure there would be some other cool tech you could run

@Korwinga 9 днів тому

That was my initial thought as well. With something like Exploration, you can negate the downside of the combo eating your land drop. Being able to run just a single copy of Magosi that you can find with crop rotation/reclaimer also makes it slightly more viable. It still might not be good enough for legacy, but it's at least just using some of the flex slots in an already established shell. Maybe running a few more cards that care about lands in the graveyard (splendid reclamation type tech maybe?) to take advantage of the self mill.

@zurreal8087 2 дні тому

I read a fun article today about miscommunications with the artists contracted to do art for WotC over Magic’s history (with Hyalopterous Lemur being the famous one). Apparently, there was a card that was supposed to be called Alchor’s Tome (as in, a book), but during a phone conversation the commissioner made the opposite pronunciation mistake as Phil does at 11:12. Upon seeing that the artist drew a tomb (as in, a mausoleum), they just decided to change the card’s name to fit the art rather than commission a second piece. And that’s how the card Alchor’s Tomb came to be.

@__Tana__ 8 днів тому

Math + normal deck tech = good content

@LadyGainhart 9 днів тому

Can't the deck win on the 3 mana by just milling endlessly until we find thassas oracle?

@t-spark 9 днів тому

It's more about whether turn 3 is achieveable. Out of the Tomb needs to get a counter and the 'extra turns' land need to already be in play. That requires an Ancient Tomb or Petal. By t3, almost every competent Legacy deck is presenting an effective kill.

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

Well, in theory, that is true. It requires VERY specific sequencing and probably also some acceleration beyond that. I showed the math for assembling the three pieces by turn 3. If you want to start adding a Lotus Petal into the mix beyond that AND making sure you get one of the lands specifically by turn 2 so it can be untapped on three... it's rough.

@chiknsmack 9 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity The question as I read it wasn't about turn 3, it was about being able to win off the lands plus Out of the Tombs. (Which you can; Out of the Tombs plus a playset of Thoracle so you don't draw them all is a wincon.)

@charliesteiner2334 9 днів тому

@@chiknsmack You can also discard to hand size. In fact, having a varied threat package is probably better to dodge surgical extraction - any creature that can sacrifice itself to deal damage is an eventual kill once you have infinite turns of getting a creature from your graveyard (finally Blistering Firecat's time has come).

@Eagle0600 9 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity Out of the Tombs both puts Thassa's Oracle into the graveyard and then puts it into play from the graveyard with no further pieces. No Dread Returns or Narcomoebas are required. I agree it's a bad combo simply by virtue of needing three cards, but it doesn't require any more to win the game in a goldfish situation.

@johnperseo1044 9 днів тому

Interesting brew!!! I think the original idea was a stretch as well. Its definitely cool but too much to ask in legacy a maverick shell can hold the card but it doesnt solve a thing it needs. Out of the tombs seems like it would be better as a 2 of in a dredge adjacent decklist to prevent mill out and be an low resource reasonable plan B engine . A hard control esper deck is possible with some enchantments recursion from hall of heliod type cards like Shark stall your eternal glory cohost BoshNRoll might play but it is such a tight decklist that needs all of it removal/utility it already has. Hopefully someone brews this card into something powerful because it is such a cool card.

@christopherbennett1173 9 днів тому

This is the real good shit here Phil. Love the deep dives, keep it up please!

@marchrobinson 9 днів тому

i think you're undervaluing the out of the tombs/magosi combo. theoretically, out of the tombs does win by itself with a one-of thassa's oracle in the deck, and with some self-mill or card selection, it's not unreasonable to use infinite turns as a possibility rather than the main plan. i do like the direction you took the deck, but i don't think oott shone particularly in this shell.

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

Well, unless you draw the Oracle and end up in some awkward position where you can't end up casting it or discarding it with the proper timing.

@marchrobinson 9 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity that's true, but i guess that's the situation you're always in with thassa's oracle. edit: no, it's worse here since you can potentially draw thassa's oracle after getting infinite turns with only 3 mana

@OmnomthePie 8 днів тому

56:30 casting (ignoble/reclaimer) using arbor then cradle + bayou for grist +remaining 1 drop leaves savannah untapped to hold up swords

@wazzledog1007 9 днів тому

Phil, thank you for introducing me to deckulator! I've been figuring out how many X or Y I should run with just a hyper geometric distribution calculator, paper and pencil for years.

@Karl_Smink 9 днів тому

2x Magosi is best gone infinite with Rings of Brighthearth. Both Magosi in play. Use Rings to copy the extra turn ability of Magosi#1. Play Magosi#1 tapped for turn. Put an Eon counter on Magosi#2, skip the "second" extra turn. On the remaining extra turn, use Rings to copy the extra turn ability of Magosi#2. Play Magosi#2 tapped for turn. Put an Eon counter on Magosi#1, skip the "second" extra turn. Alternatively to using 2x Magosi, you can do this with 1x Magosi and either Spelunking or AMulet of Vigor to allow it to come in untapped and counter on the Rings turn. Then it untaps normally on the remaining extra turn, and you can activate it, Rings the activation, replay it, and immediately Eon counter it, skipping one of your 2 extra turns.

@alexanderlewis958 9 днів тому

I think Out of the Tombs is just not a reasonable legacy card, but the deckbuilding discussion was really interesting and insightful.

@TROLOLOLOLO007 9 днів тому

I like the polo Phil! Fits well looks well!

@basiliaspice 9 днів тому

FINALLY A MATH MTG VIDEO

@nicholasiverson9784 9 днів тому

I played Magosi years ago with Amulet and Rings of Brighthearth. Enters tapped - untap - skip turn - untap extra turn 2: copy the extra turn.

@gkakgraubgyou 9 днів тому

Great video!

@elijahbuck6499 9 днів тому

As a math major who loves your content.. thank you Phil :)

@rsmith524 4 дні тому

Life from the Loam is the missing piece to the engine.

@badfelix007 9 днів тому

I loveeeeeeeee the statistics part 🤩

@pauldaulby260 9 днів тому

I think you're missing out how easy it is to kill with infinite turns and infinite creatures. take this deck but replace depths stage with magosi + nesting grounds. (and add an extra catacombs) worst case combo you have 3 mana so no spare mana. return heirarchs each turn, then fiend artizan, then bowmasters. then each turn sacrifice bowmasters to artizan and bring back bowmasters for infinite damage over infinite turns.

@jaggededge11 9 днів тому

I figured you would have put Out of the Tombs into a Doomsday style deck to serve as a back-up win-con. While it would have probably diluted the deck over-all, I think it would have been the best chance of living the dream.

@hiperbird 9 днів тому

i think once you get the exact lands to win thing you can still pull through if you have a thoracle in the deck(or enough creatures to beatdown). i think that one would make the combo reliable even if slow for MTGO(and still too many moving pieces)

@colaocha1115 9 днів тому

I feel like you could play land tutors to find 2 of your pieces so it's more like A + A + B, and maybe with a crucible effect you can use Out of the Tombs to get more looks at the other 2, but at that stage you're just worse Depths Stage, so that's probably relegated to Highlander formats

@rhettk6263 9 днів тому

My brain looking at the cards realizing that 2 of them are lands so i immediately said so we can do a sultai lands type shell Like crop rotation And exploration And life from the loam to be able to 1) fix the 1 land drop per turn 2) dig much better And 3 ) give you the ability to run interaction of veil of summer and other green blue things like uro to accelerate and get more of an idea And splash black removal

@Andre-fm1zy 9 днів тому

love the math ❤

@TheVeeOhla 5 днів тому

See joe, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice!

@BeachFFM 9 днів тому

Math part is great. Thanks

@davidsperoni3107 9 днів тому

tbh, i wasnt expecting the brew to go into this direction. I thought i would see a "doomsday" type deck haha

@VivBrodock 9 днів тому

DID I HEAR MATH? I heckin love math. Thinking about what my uni research is gonna be on atm. And i kinda want to do it on mtg deck building

@donaldtaylor724 9 днів тому

If you want to try to make this viable in legacy, an Urzas saga package involving Amulet of Vigor is a must. I run this exact combo as one of two central win conditions in a Zimone/Dina EDH deck (Maze’s End is the other). I refuse to expose the combo to a turn cycle of removal, so I run Amulet and Spelunking, and enough tutors that if I need to pivot towards that line, I can.

@PsychoEkan 8 днів тому

The entire math intro vs Tron players

@cuttlefish6839 9 днів тому

The Numbers Mason. What do they mean? Love discussing deck building so this videos a good 👍 from me

@MackNJacishopper 9 днів тому

beans is actually insane.

@Dhips. 9 днів тому

"We're going to have to do...math!"

@swampybwoy 9 днів тому

As much as it’s ill advised I’d love to see you try the magosi thing

@DrPeckers 9 днів тому

We need more math lectures on a channel called Thraben University!

@MrSteve3200 11 днів тому

You came to the same conclusion in the end, but I think the Grist's are too slow at 49:00

@TheKozzakk 9 днів тому

lets gooo math! please do this more often

@ikos3645 6 днів тому

What about something vengevine esque, for the milling and that sac demonic tutor? Would that work?

@ETRHeydrich 9 днів тому

This was already debunked back on reddit when it was spoiled and magosi shot up in price for a second, as something that was insanely difficult to pull off in EDH where you already have the turns needed for it.

@alexzavoluk2271 9 днів тому

Did you think about 1 life from the loam (I would probably try it over goyf or the fourth fiend artisan)? You can find it off the tombs, it gets back lands (including depths combo) that you've milled, is card advantage, and recurs wasteland.

@alexzavoluk2271 9 днів тому

Ah, you mention this at about 1:22:10.

@psjr327 9 днів тому

1:04:49 Before popping Liberator, use Knight to get Depths?

@ThrabenUniversity 8 днів тому

I don't really think I need to get cute here. My line played around Daze while also denying blue mana on the next turn. I think that's stronger than an extra body when I already have lethal next turn.

@blackdragonepic 9 днів тому

is pick your poison just good enough to run main deck in any deck that can cast it in legacy? Think about it, it answers urza's saga, it answers the one ring (though the probably have other artifacts so this one isn't as good), it answers murktide, answers DRC activated, answers delver.... seems like it just hits a huge portion of the meta.

@blackdragonepic 9 днів тому

hits animate dead as well.

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

I think it's REASONABLE to maindeck, but I don't know if it is ever optimal to do so.

@blackdragonepic 9 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity it's definitely bad vs doomsday and storm, that's fore sure, definitely not worth keeping against same thing as goblins and initiative... so maybe you're right that you don't want it maindeck for fast matchups.

@SHINTA1035 9 днів тому

I love Maverick.

@buckmars13 9 днів тому

I feel like the average cost of dudes is too high for vegevine but maybe if we cut some high end

@benlittle5543 9 днів тому

Oooooh math and theory. Yes please

@swampybwoy 9 днів тому

Great discussion. One point of contention, if you are taking infinite turns, surely the win con is mathematically irrelevant because you will inevitably draw it once you start the combo?

@swampybwoy 9 днів тому

Never mind , I just realised that the problem is the self milling 😅

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

Well, not only that, but you also risk just naturally drawing something that you might need in your graveyard. It's a touch awkward.

@booshalmighty 9 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity With infinite turns, couldn't you just discard to hand size to put Thassa's Oracle in the graveyard?

@RedWanderer1 9 днів тому

Magic math 😊

@ahipmom3104 9 днів тому

In the math wouldn't you also account for mulligans and tutors, tutors being pseudocopies, mulligans being more cards drawn

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

The math presented here is just the math for raw A+B+C in X number of cards. You can adjust the numbers further from here if you want to account for other stuff.

@buckmars13 9 днів тому

I mean if your running 2 reanimate you might as well add grief lol.

@tylermfdurden 9 днів тому

Yay! Math!

@JacoDeltaco 5 днів тому

Question wouldn't Palantir do the same thing for the deck?

@ThrabenUniversity 5 днів тому

It would fill a similar role while not as consistently filling the graveyard, it would offer more upside in other ways.

@ryangainey94 9 днів тому

So, I'm not that far into the math section, but there's one obvious thing that comes up that I think you're missing. You said that if you just assemble it at 3 lands you get infinite turns but can't win. That's very much inaccurate. See, when you transfer the eon counter over to the magosi, you're only removing one of two eon counters that it's getting every turn. That means that every time you do the loop, you're going to mill an incremental amount of cards. Then when you run out of cards in your library, it starts reanimating creatures from your graveyard... That's how you would win after taking infinite turns. Sure you couldn't play any more lands, but you wouldn't NEED to. You could just wait till you've milled out and then return a thassa's Oracle you milled along the way and win on the spot, or return big beefy beaters from the yard like an Eldrazi or something if you want more style points. It turns into a free reanimation engine once you achieve infinite turns with an empty library. That's how you'd actually win. ... It doesn't look like you accounted for that when you said that simply assembling the combo with just enough mana to do it wouldn't be enough to win. I think it would be.

@ReyaadawnMTG 9 днів тому

I ran this in my EDH deck and it NEVER got there, no matter how many times I tried.

@JacoDeltaco 5 днів тому

I kinda wish I could use a cads like force fruition to deck beans deck. The problem being that card is bad

@charlesfuller7774 9 днів тому

Math is hard

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

That's why the computer does the math for us lol.

@rjfischer2553 9 днів тому

11:12 out of the tomes?

@rjfischer2553 9 днів тому

I had to double check, I thought I’d misread the card

@yakovdavidov7102 9 днів тому

sixths

@epsteindidntkillhimself69 9 днів тому

I've had a lot of fun with this card in EDH alongside Yawgmoth and something like Gray Merchant as a build-your-own mono-black version of Thassa's oracle. Yes, we do have Thassa's Oracle at home.

@deskbot000 9 днів тому

I think your math undersold the combo with Magosi. Two of the combo pieces are tutorable off of all the usual land tutors, so those can be effective 8-of's or 12-of's, and infinite turns is a deterministic win with Thassa's Oracle in the deck even if the only game actions you take each turn are the loop to keep taking more turns. Any shell that could fit that combo could fit Dark Depths just as easily though, and Dark Depths is way easier to assemble so it's still not really worth doing. Better than you made it sound, but still not good enough.

@ThrabenUniversity 9 днів тому

The math I did was purely the A+B+C in X number of cards. You can feel free to further manipulate it from there! When you start accounting for tutors, time is the biggest resource given up.

@jonathanstudentkit 9 днів тому

The hypergeometric distribution is not the correct model here, you need a negative binomial model or a generalisation of that.

@jadegrace1312 6 днів тому

Can we ban Up The Beanstalk? What a boring card that card has become. It also feels like beans, reanimator, and delver are like 50% of the format rn which feels like a lot for 4-5 decks in legacy.

@ThrabenUniversity 5 днів тому

I don't think the Beans decks are performing that well. I haven't been keeping up with the data sheets or anything, but last time I looked it the beans decks only had like a 50% win rate.

@jadegrace1312 5 днів тому

@@ThrabenUniversity I 100% agree that beans should not be banned on winrates. I'm just having an emotional reaction to how boring it is