I'm sitting here in Norway, been an atheist my entire life. I'm 33 now. And when that pastor drew in breath and let out a long thoughtful sigh.... I just started crying. That stunned painful sobbing that comes when something huge hits you. That sigh, contained the entirety of what ALL OF THIS is about. The years of indoctrination. The organization that is Christianity (all denominations, all of it). The history of it all, throughout mankind, spanning all the nations. The wars, the persecutions, all....those....murders.... The families torn apart by religion. But most of all... right immediately... here now... with this man that has spent his entire life with this worldview. All those years... That sigh spoke with the weight of an entire library of stories. "I had not thought about that before" -Eugene. A good man. I can count on one hand the amount of times I cry per year. Today I cried for a good man.

I'm a Creationist - I believe man created God.

Poor Eugene, he's an elegant example of how religion turns human minds into dogshit.

It's scary that a man like this offers people advice and counsel.

Pastor - “damn you got me, you’re gonna bring up the cloak being red or purple thing right?” Erik- “No I was thinking about the contradiction of the so called creation of everything in existence”

Love how he says that he doesn't accept the Book of Mormon because it was written by a con man, but provides zero evidence that the Bible wasn't.

Wow.. 22:22 gave me the shivers. His silence an then “ I never thought of this”. He actually listened and just not talked. You don’t hear that often from theists in T.H. or A.E.

Many have observed that the Bible is reasonably accurate, especially when thrown from short distances.

"i have the bible in my hand, the knowledge in my head and i use the two in tandem" this is such a beautifully stupid quote

I wish more theism debates went like this. Theres a difference between being misled and being outright dishonest. Eugene has a lot of integrity, best of luck to him in his journey to find the truth!

It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It

The reason why I began to cry when he used the analogy of disowning one’s own children is because I was ready to disown my children and wife over my “faith”. Religion is horrible. Christians, if they were honest, would NEVER behave like their god. Great video.

When he answered that he would not abandon his children of they didn't believe in his religion, it genuinely made me tear up. That is an answer that I haven't heard much and it's an answer that I myself haven't recieved from my own family. Hearing him actually put thought into it, probably for the very first time, just made my heart ache.

"If one of your children didn't believe in God, would you disown them?" *Pause* The fact that there is a pause is very concerning.....

Dude.....this poor guy....you can hear his entire world disintegrating and his voice is quivering 😢❤ . He seems like a genuinely good dude.😂❤

The long silence before he answers that last question speaks volumes.

Well handled guys - having a civil, yet honest and searching conversation. Keep up the conversation with Eugene.

Matt would have exploded before the ten minute mark.

I like the vibes of Pastor Eugene. I hope he was willing and able to call in again.

That was a good call. I liked Eugene. He wouldn't disown his children if they didn't believe that says a lot coming from a Christian pastor. That little piece touched my heart.

The older your are the harder it is to leave religion

My boyfriend’s dad is the same way as this guy. “God is real because I KNOW he’s real.” He told us that he’s heartbroken that we’re atheists. When I tried to explain to him that we don’t care what anyone believes as long as they don’t hurt other people, he instantly got angry and said things like “how can you say that?! That’s not true at all!” Needless to say, we don’t discuss religion anymore, which is sad to me, because I value having open minded discussions about topics like this. Every time he mentions god, we just have to keep our mouths shut because we know he won’t listen.

What a nice old man. I think he has doubt about his believes otherwise he wouldn´t call multiple times. But now in his age he can´t just let go of his believes.

I think, the problem with Eugene, is that nobody has ever asked him the right questions in his life, but he's surprisingly honest for a pastor.

Affording the believer some respect or kindness, while not respecting their belief is generally a far more effective means to encourage people to listen. If you want people to be persuaded or at least examine their belief honestly, you need them to be willing to hear what you're saying. You have an older gentleman who has lived with an unquestioned certainty for probably his entire life, and who came into his first call bristling with unflattering preconceived ideas of atheists, and now he is being polite and considering your points. Love it! Thanks to everyone at Talk Heathen.

This was powerful. He was considering things....bravo to you guys for walking him down that path and showing him his blind spots. Gave me goose bumps.

I really appreciate how Jamie and Eric stay calm and exceedingly polite throughout. They show a lot of patience, which I think goes a long way in helping guide people towards critical thinking.

I admire that he's even willing to have the convo at his age; my grandmother ain't having it.

Jesus sacrificed himself? Really? That's like me writing a $10,000 check to a charity, stopping payment on it a few days later, and then telling people that I "sacrificed 10k to charity" It's not a "sacrifice" if you take it right back.

He said he got his entire church to watch the show he says 😂😂😂🤣🤣

That moment when a lifetime of unquestioned belief begins to crumble before your eyes....Eugene sounds like a good and honest man.

“Plus you exist” that was the most snarky and funny remark I’ve ever heard Jamie make 😂😂😂

Eric: 3,16 And lo, Jamie was on the same page as his brethren, and accepted the proffered bro-fist without looking.

It's a bad sign when you face palm on a call before the two minute mark.

And the last person I would leave my kids with would be a priest or a pastor.

I feel bad for this man. He spent his entire life believing in a god and the holy spirit and such, and he's without a doubt questioning it NOW. He's calling to convince himself.

New viewer here, and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your gentle approach to debating this topic. As someone who left my faith earlier this year and lost my entire friend group and community (who were the only family I had), watching/listening to podcasts like yours and The Atheist experience has given me reassurance that there is a community of like-minded people out there, and you have touched on so many things that I've struggled with since my conversion to Christianity 18 years ago. Thank you so much for everything that you two do.

that poor guy on the left just facepalmed immediately at the alleged contradictions... oh boy he knew where this was going

" I haven't read the book of Eric" Eric replies "it's a really good book". Epic 😂! Where can I get a copy

OMG... The hesitation he had when asked if he'd disown his child.

take a shot every time the guy says "well"

Eugene is the nicest, the most intelligent man they have had on the show. He does not tend to abuse or attack anyone with his beliefs and religious views. Well at least what I have seen here. What he chooses to believe for whatever reason, thats a different topic. But also when they speak and point out some critical moments, he listens and at least tries to analyse, understand. I can only have a respect for this man.

Wow, this was one of few calls I've heard on any of the shows where a religious person was rational and honest. Well done!

I, daily, feel that the "spirit" is coming OUT of me. And what a RELIEF it is. It really puts you in a good mood, all day.

right about the 22 minute mark, you can almost hear the gears starting to line up for Eugene

4:05 "Where's my holy book?" It was as if on cue! Made me laugh so hard!

Jamie and Eric, Gents, this was one of your best episodes ever! Amazing work! I hope you’ll watch this clip again to see all the great things you did that made this one so effective: - finding relatable comparisons (babysitter example was perfect for his life stage) - showing several methodologies (logic, contradictions, morality, personal emotional needs) and pursuing the ones that resonated most with him on an emotional level, as well as an intellectual level - respecting his intelligence - super-dooper polite - staying focused, not getting sidetracked, holding him to task with your questions - complimenting and praising to validate and reward his genuine efforts to connect and share honestly - agreeing with him when it made sense to do so - providing first-hand accounts of the pain you’ve seen that was caused by religion This episode achieved something rare and very profound: At 22:21, the caller said “I never thought of this” That was a BREAKTHROUGH. Please watch the minute leading up to it to see what you said that brought him to that fundamental realization. You reached him! His realization was even more rewarding to watch, because in previous calls he was full-on warring against you, “cast the pearls before the swine”. He went from hating you and trying to “rescue you” to realizing that you had information to offer that could be of benefit to him. He thought new ideas, and was intrigued by it. His journey to watch has been fascinating. That may have been his first moment of doubt, ever. That’s something worth taking stock of, and studying what you did specifically to help him get there, so that you can replicate and share with future callers. I can’t wait for when he calls back again!

You all did great working with this pastor. Thoughtful and patient.

Can we get a pdf version of The Book of Eric?

Wow..an older Pastor who you can hear in his voice, the cogs start to turn to the thoughts of reason and critical thinking. Well done guys...

It takes an honest person to admit they hadn't thought of something before when the other makes a point. Instead of scrambling for an excuse or side stepping the shit out of the question "if you have evidence, do you need faith?", he paused and answered honestly. I can appreciate that, and hopefully he thinks about it some more. Good on Eugene.

This is why I love living here in Scandinavia, we are basically an atheist people, even if our countries are officially christian. Basically 90% of us are atheist even if not everyone will officially ackowledge it. Not only that, but the theists are actually considered the wierdos here. I love my country :D

"Magic is the dark arts!" I just choked my taco i love eugene

This call was handled perfectly. Welldone!

I’m fascinated by the pastor’s techniques, most likely learned then honed over time: use of religious semantics, appeals to emotion, long and personal stories, a well-practiced monotone slow drone… it’s hypnotic and in now way a reason to believe in his magical worldview.

I almost feel bad for the old guy, but you guys did well asking questions to stir thoughts that will be planted seeds of doubt for viewers watching. This guy will most likely stay in his belief and if he was smart he will not call again. I admire his courage to call. Most Christians ignore posts, don't call into atheist shows, etc. Keep up the good work. Love this show.

most beautiful sound i ever heard , a christian cornered , 21:56 minutes gotta turn up the headphones for THAT one !!! absolutely beautiful !

Great vid you guys. I liked Eugene. I think his wheels are turning ;) This was a lovely video. Thank you.

I really respect these guys with the way they maintain a calm and rational tone throughout and really allow the logical situation to unfold. I am learning a lot, thank you.

Thank you, Eric and Jamie, for doing what you do. I'm a new fan and I appreciate you greatly.

This was a very touching discussion. Science bless Eugene, and thank you both for being so respectful yet also amazingly powerful & concise.

This had me rolling!🤣 I love how patient you guys were with him. Good job 👍

WOW what beautiful human beings. The Best episode i have heard so far.

This was masterfully handled, guys. Bravo! You found consensus. And you did great. I am sure Eugene appreciates your civility.

One of my favourite calls of the show! Honest, respectful..... human

The odds are that as soon as Eugene put the phone down he returned to the comfort of his god and forgot all about reason

I REALLY like these guys. Incredibly professional, well spoken, respectful, and intelligent. This is what I want to see discourse between atheist and theist to be like. Excellent work I really enjoyed the video

damn !!! well done boys!! I love the long pause when you asked " if there is evidence for something do you need faith?"

I don’t know if it has something to do with his experience as a pastor but the way he talks just makes my eyes roll into the back of my head.

My coworker preceded to tell me that morality comes from Christianity and it's crazy how other people and religions sacrifice people and kill babies, throw them in fire, etc... I said well why is that not ok with other people and religions but your god drowned many children and actively threatens us to burn in fire for eternity and that's ok? (since he believes life is eternal) and his response was "Well we're not god so we can't understand how he works and those babies are in heaven." I told him that's a clear cop out to keep from holding your God accountable for doing the very thing you despise in regard to other religions/gods and if God knew the children in the flood were innocent why kill them? It's ridiculous.

Loved this. His voice takes me back to the elders I grew up around and enjoyed

This is the best Talk Heathen I've seen yet! I don't know how I've missed it before. I guess I need to watch it more! Everything I've seen from Austin Texas is great!

You guys are doing a great job, keep it up! Pastor Eugene, if you are by any chance reading this, as a fellow human from across the globe I'd like to thank you for the intellectual honesty you've shown. I'm convinced it's among the most important characteristics to develop in the continuous figurative road to becoming a better person. I see atheism merely as the label for a consequence of looking critically and unbiasedly at what surrounds us. When we do so with intellectual honesty, we are able to say "I don't know" fearlessly, because that's what keeps us looking to see the where the worldly, demonstrable, reliable information leads us. And we all want to make informed choices, I think, because most of the time we hurt someone else is because we're convinced of something that's wrong, shortly put. Looking forward to hearing your next conversation! Have a good week.

Fantastic segment! The Book of Eric and Spiderman are epistemological weapons that should be wielded more often. Bravo.

“Would you ever disown your children?” Pause Pastor: “ ... I’m thinking. Hold on please. Do you mean both of them?”

Oh my goodness that end was so feely goody and warm and pleasant I need more

I think a lot of so-called pastors and theologians long ago ceased to believe what they preach. The problem is, that's been their life, and they have no easy way to escape - given the personal penalties (loss of friends, family, reputation) and financial penalties - what the hell else do they do? - and can they continue to be where they are: and how they live?? It's difficult.

It makes me sad when I hear such a caring person defend the undefendable. I’m glad that he has higher standards than his god.

What a wonderful way to deal with this caller. Excellent job. Great show sirs :)

Talking to this pastor must be what it’s like having a conversation with an ent.

There was a pause when you asked him about casting out his children (or maybe when you said that happens) That pause was the sound of a father feeling enormous pain on someone's behalf. If only we could have all the believers experience this much empathy. I bet Eugene would offer to house any of those rejected children with no conditions attached, like mandatory bible study or something like that.

This reads like an SNL sketch, and the caller would be played perfectly by Will Ferrell.

Life long Non-Theist. My father-in-law’s name is Eugene. We live in WA State just north of OR. My wife and I were disowned by her parents because we (primarily her because I wasn’t even asked) refused to join their Church with our children. In fact; their Church refused to allow us to see him in his last days when he died (he had degenerative brain condition where he began to not even know who he was, and he lived with another daughter who was in the Church). We were also barred from the memorial services as well. My wife’s Mother is still disowning us. To hear this other Eugene pause and say “No, I love my children” was so profound to me. I literally had to collect myself for a moment before continuing to listen. I have no idea if he will even see this but I applaud his good nature. It is in spite of, not because of his religion. But I am content enough that is his nature. Loved this video.

What I love about this show is, is that you don't unnecessarily provoke people and yet you get your points across. This is one finesse thing about this show. Other shows could learn that aspect.

Totally off topic, but -- Jamie's voice is so relaxing 😌 if he started an asmr channel, I would subscribe right away

NY Times Aug. 14, 2018 Bishops and other leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania covered up child sexual abuse by more than 300 priests over a period of 70 years, persuading victims not to report the abuse and law enforcement not to investigate it, according to a searing report issued by a grand jury on Tuesday. The report, which covered six of the state’s eight Catholic dioceses and found more than 1,000 identifiable victims, is the broadest examination yet by a government agency in the United States of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. The report said there are likely thousands more victims whose records were lost or who were too afraid to come forward. It catalogs horrific instances of abuse: a priest who raped a young girl in the hospital after she had her tonsils out; a victim tied up and whipped with leather straps by a priest; and another priest who was allowed to stay in ministry after impregnating a young girl and arranging for her to have an abortion. The sexual abuse scandal has shaken the Catholic Church for more than 15 years, ever since explosive allegations emerged out of Boston in 2002. But even after paying billions of dollars in settlements and adding new prevention programs, the church has been dogged by a scandal that is now reaching its highest ranks. The Pennsylvania report comes soon after the resignation of Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the former archbishop of Washington, who is accused of sexually abusing young priests and seminarians, as well as minors. “Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all. For decades.” The report is unlikely to lead to new criminal charges or civil lawsuits under the current law because the statute of limitations has expired. Only two of the cases in the report so far have led to criminal charges. End of article. While religious people roleplay about magic, superstition and invisible Jewish zombie overlords, their churches keep molesting children and accumulating material wealth. If you are a xtian, you are responsible for supporting your parasitic priests and your evil church. Civil society isn't pleased to see you. You superstitions are not needed and your invisible friends are false and ridiculous. You are obtuse, arrogant, ignorant and should be ashamed to be a facilitator for those who hurt children. Religion is disgusting and dangerous. STOP NOW.

You could hear the gears grinding in his brain as he tried to defend his position against logic

He has a room with several books. Amazing.

A perfect example (the Pastor) of a person so completely invested in this belief that he would be totally unable to entertain even the possibility that he could be wrong.

Jamie's body language is so honest, makes me laugh, especially the facepalms.

Out of all the clips I've seen, this is most definitely the best. The debate was handled calmly and respectfully by both sides, with neither side just saying "I'm right, you're wrong.", and just hanging up.

You are very calm with this guy. I would have lost my mind.

I want this guy to go to IRS with me when they question my tax returns.

When I want a good laugh, I watch videos of delusional believers calling into an atheist show ...works every time 😂🤣😂🤣

Nice to see that both of you are improving in your constructive argument skills...I will keep following...

I can honestly say there are very few callers that I feel I could have a real conversation with. I think I'd enjoy talking to Eugene.

New drinking game, take a shot every time he says "well"

There are loads of contradictions in the bible..watch the non stamp collectors video called the bible quiz..He even shows the where they are in the bible during the video...its hilarious...

holly shit what an amazing conversation you guys did a hell of a job making your points while always remaining respectful to him. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 that was truly excellent nice job!!!

You guys awesome, and we miss Matt too, thanks for helping us, greetings from California👍