Persian 17-tone system, a more chromatic music
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День томуThe Persian 17-tone system is an extension of the heptatonic scale with three possible variations of the tone in each scale degree.
In this video, according to the findings of my master's thesis at McGill, using distinct colors, I briefly explain how this system works!
Also see:
• Modes and melodies in ...
DISCLAIMER #1: The selection of the colors, except for the seven natural tones, is arbitrary! I just intended to show three distinct shades of the colors.
DISCLAIMER #2: The 17-tone system that underlies Persian music is not 17-Equal-Temperament (17-ET) or 17 Equal Division of the Octave (17-EDO), since in 17-ET/17-EDO the place of fourth and fifth intervals is greatly deviated from their perfect value, which is not favorable at all in Persian music!
DISCLAIMER #3: Studying the exact amounts of the intervals in Persian music requires the nine-fold division of a whole tone, which results to a 53-Equal-Temperament (53-ET). But the point is that in practice, we can have an acceptable approximation of all these 53 tones in a neat and polished 17-tone system. If you’re interested to know more about the details, I’ve dedicated a section of my thesis to the topic of tuning and approximation.
DISCLAIMER #4: The reason for removing the (so-called devil!) Tritone interval is that it is extremely deviated from its representative in the Harmonic Series.
DISCLAIMER #5: Don't confuse 8 tetrachord genera with different Gushes in the Persian seven dastgahs!
DISCLAIMER #6: The arrangement of the tones in this system, and the Abjadic notation system connected to it is a relative-pitch system, which works like a Moveable Do! If you assign the first tone of the 17-tone system to a note different than C, you will lead to a different collection of notes.
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00:00 Introduction
00:54 Issac Newton's color-note analogy
01:35 Seven color-tones in Diatonic (natural) scale
02:38 Twelve color-tones in Chromatic scale
03:40 My Thesis
04:18 Seventeen color-tones in Persian scale
05:31 Quarter-flat / Quarter-sharp
06:15 Eight tetrachord genera in Persian music
07:20 A More-Chromatic music
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Resource:
Daemi Milani, Farzad. "Persian-Arabic Seventeen-Tone Temperament: A Microtonal Extension to the Heptatonic Scale" Master's thesis, McGill University, 2023.
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#persianmusic #persian_music #persian_dastgah #maqam #maqamat #traditionalmusic #arabicmusic #arabicmusictheory #turkishmusic
@SenseiNWDA 11 днів тому
Indonesia has 128 tones per octave. Microtonics are incredible!
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
Interesting
@joaocorreia524 8 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Terry Riley and others were very influenced by it in the 70s. Unfortunely i dont remember any western composer being influenced directly by persian music. Or even indian. Arabic a bit.
@gothfather8741 7 днів тому
@@joaocorreia524 The Beatles and many others were Indian influenced..not sure about Persian but I'm sure some were.
@joaocorreia524 7 днів тому
@@gothfather8741 yes, i remember there was an indian craze then
@michaelladerman2564 6 днів тому
@@joaocorreia524 Check out Albert Roussel's ballet-opera, Padmavati for Indian influence. Also, Krishna, the 3rd movement of Joueurs de Flute.
@saFubar 17 днів тому
Superchromal music! Further extensions could be ultrachromal, hyperchromal, or other fun adjectives like mondochromal (I avoid mega, kilo, and other prefixes that imply a power of ten relationship).
@farzadmilani 17 днів тому
Good suggestion! Thanks
@martingrieco 16 днів тому
❤ love superchromal
@markop.1994 11 днів тому
31-tet is a super cool tuning system. 31 equal distant notes gives alot of just intonated harmonies and a ton of exotic chords too
@squodge 10 днів тому
A purist might prefer 'hyperchromal', as that uses two Greek roots. If you wanted a Latinate term, it would be 'supercolorful', which is the direct equivalent of 'hyperchromal'. But instead, maybe a Persian term would be apt... any Persian speakers here to create one?
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
@@markop.1994 Sure it is, but in case of tetrachord-based musics like Persian, the place of perfect 4th and 5th intervals are crucial. None of the equal temperament except for 53-EDO cannot give natural values specifically for these two.
@dasibaho 3 дні тому
Your visual slide showing notes as colored circles to compare systems made so much sense ❤
@XXIII_89 12 днів тому
That was amazing! Thank you so much for the insight. The chord knowledge was especially fascinating!
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
Thanks for your complement 🙏🏼
@Acoustic-Rabbit-Hole 4 дні тому
This expanded my mind as a piano tuner because it breaks out of the very rigid tuning standard equal temperament, where every note is exactly the distance apart, resulting in grey, colorless scales and intervals. Also, Farzad and viewers, you may want to see my Theory of Pitch Psychology where I claim that our hearing is spectral, and tied emotionally to the these color energies. For example, love songs historically being constantly written in C, a note which I always associated with red (love, Valentine’s Day, etc.). C is like red, D is orange, E is yellow (a bright, flashy note), etc. Thanks for this enlightening video! Your, _Acoustic Rabbit Hole _
@seanperkinsmusic 11 днів тому
Thank you for this video. I appreciated how you encouraged the treatment of the quarter flats and sharps. It reminded me of how to treat bends when playing the blues.
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
Thanks for your compliment. You're right, there's a link between the blue notes and middle Eastern neutral intervals.
@avigailomichael 4 дні тому
Awesome! Best explanation so far. I love Persian music system more than any other. Please do more videos. You've earned a new sub.
@stylis666 11 днів тому
Me, colourblind: red/blue, orange, orange, orange, orange, orange, green, green, green, green, green, blue. Three notes, easy. Just like the rainbow.
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
No worries! You got the idea. 👍
@beaker2257 9 днів тому
That was fascinating. Even at 65, I'm not too old to learn something new.
@mimori.com_ 13 днів тому
Very impressive. I'm Japanese. This reminds me the day I visited the Karate athlete who was from Iran to learn Karate in Tokyo Japan in 1980. He said that he liked the Japanese popular songs coming from TV shows because the songs he felt much sounds like Iranian songs and he remembered his home. He gave me the lyrics on paper and he sung the song by guitar on chord A minor. I still have the lyrics somewhere in my box. (I had the meal by his wife. The cucumber and yorgrt. I liked it.)
@dtfoel1230 13 днів тому
do you think the topic of this video is applicable to shamisen music? I notice the voice inflections and sound of Shamisen in Tsguru Jongara Bushi
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
That's interesting. I'm not familiar with far eastern music, but there should be some similarities for sure. By the way, make sure you eat cucumber and yogourt with its special spice (Chashni). It'll taste more delicious.
@dtfoel1230 13 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Thank you Sir. I'll definitely give it a try. Your post is interesting and i'll explore more I like music although my level of understanding is limited . I was wondering how one would achieve the other tones on instruments like piano guitar. i think i see the reed instruments getting those sounds. thanks for repling I'll look at more posts
@Johnstone565 10 днів тому
Great video, watching from Ireland 🇮🇪 Thank you
@carlospiso 11 днів тому
So beautiful ! 🌄 And a nice pedagogy effort, thanks !
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
🙏
@CamerOneiric 11 днів тому
Thank you for this explanation. I have been enjoying Persian music lately, particularly Homayoun Khoram.
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
That's great!
@michaelvarney4723 5 днів тому
Thank you for a good introduction to the system.
@jamesankiewicz3141 9 днів тому
Excellent tutorial! Really informative…thx
@mdrdprtcl 8 днів тому
I love the application of colors to tones!
@uomodibassamorale 16 днів тому
Woah! Wonderful video, thanks for sharing
@audiodegradable 11 днів тому
Thank you very much! Those infos are great references for me.
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
🙏
@danceyoufiend394 17 днів тому
Very interesting! Thank you
@Whatismusic123 12 днів тому
very interesting, I very much like this approach, as opposed to just making different equal temperaments
@The_SOB_II 7 днів тому
I agree, ETs are pretty limiting until you get to very high values, at which point you might as well be doing free tuning anyways
@adaveco 8 днів тому
Even the attempt to explain this concept is challenging. Thank you Farzaad.
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
🙏🏼
@therealzilch 12 днів тому
Fascinating stuff, thanks. Subscribed. Cheers from a tuning and temperament freak in Vienna, Scott
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
🙏
@therealzilch 12 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Hey, we're all in this together. Look me up if you're ever in town.
@L0nelyH0wl 12 днів тому
Woah amazing video, you've explained it so well! I was always wondering why I heard notes I couldn't play on my piano, makes so much sense now😂 Thanks!
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
🙏
@hecateswolf6007 День тому
Fascinating. Thank you. Subscribed
@polymoog800 2 дні тому
Thank you! Very nice and useful for the musicians around the world.
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
🙏
@polymoog800 2 дні тому
@@farzadmilani Recently I worked for Kanun sound library. Amazing instrument so far. With your help, microtonal scales have more sense to me. Good job ! Keep in touch!
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
@@polymoog800 I'm happy to hear that. I'm curious to know about what you do in kanun sound library. If you're interested to chat, here's my email: farzad.milani@gmail.com
@polymoog800 2 дні тому
@@farzadmilani Just sent a mail. Please check the spam too 🙂
@ikhosravi 19 днів тому
❤❤Way to go buddy...
@karllindberg 6 днів тому
Thanks for sharing your knowledge around the Persian notation system! Yek, Do, Se, Char! :)
@farzadmilani 6 днів тому
😅🙏
@jabrown 6 днів тому
Interesting video. I know nothing about Persian music, but this taught me a little.
@Jimmy.Williams 13 днів тому
Very cool explanation, thanks for sharing!
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
🙏
@Jimmy.Williams 13 днів тому
@@farzadmilani can you make some more content that shows examples of songs or compositions or improvisations using those scales with the microtonal notes? It's cool because there are microtones in Blues music (why it's called Blues...the "blue" note), Soul, RnB...even metal guitar players like George Lynch bending notes...awesome to see it in other contexts like Arabic music. Would love to hear song examples to "open" my ears more to those tones I'm not so used to hearing (like the half-b 2, half-b 5 and half-b 6). Thanks!
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
@@Jimmy.Williams Definitely thre's a link between the blue notes and the neutral notes in Persian, Arabic, and Turkish music. Maybe I'll make a separate video about that.
@hossein_haeri 18 днів тому
دمت گرم. یکی از مفیدترین ۸ دقیقه های زندگیم بود!
@farzadmilani 18 днів тому
🙏
@dadivozo656 11 днів тому
Very interesting. I'm not super good in music theory, but I appreciate that someone can explain the things beyond the 12-tone chromatic stuff we are too used to hear. Also, my wife is Afghan so she has introduced me to her folkloric music which I guess follows with the 17-tone system. Big up
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
Thanks man. That's interesting!
@rohollahazizi9517 19 днів тому
This was great, dear Farzad. Please do more videos regarding Iranian music theory.
@artysanmobile 13 днів тому
Those of us who can think at a level beyond the simplicity of nationalist fervor have no trouble at all understanding this topic. You should try it.
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
@@artysanmobile Sure! Thanks for your support.
@SpectrumOfChange 5 днів тому
Most excellent, thank you
@siaseeds8950 8 днів тому
Great video. Would love a more in depth one about what a tetrachord is and why it is significant and some real life examples. Well done agha!
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
Mokhles 🙏 Don't miss my next video then!
@siaseeds8950 8 днів тому
Subscribed!
@Microtonal_Cats 7 днів тому
Nice. There are six Persian tunings built in to the free VST "Microtone 5000." Same with "Simple Microtonal Sampler." Works in most DAWs.
@dwsel 13 днів тому
First timer here. This is so good. Please make more music theory videos.
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
Sure! Thank you
@tamashitrying 12 днів тому
Thank You. You clear lot of doubts in my head. Can you make a videos explaining all the Maqams ?
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
I'm glad to hear that! For sure I'll do.
@tamashitrying 12 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Thank You. Very Excited for the next video.
@petejandrell4512 17 днів тому
Thank you
@fortissimoX 12 днів тому
Thanks! As a musician from a western kind of civilization, this topic interests me very much. So, it would be very helpful to also add some examples, as well as suggestions regarding what artists could we check. Thanks again! 👍
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
Sure! I'll make more videos with a lot of musical examples. 🙏
@MrHoweverMany 11 днів тому
Wow I really loved this explanation, the video was incredibly well done. Could you offer any exemplary songs for someone with no history listening to Persian music? What composers or tracks could I start with?
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
If you don't get board with the Persian traditional music, follow the works of Mohammad-Reza Shajarian and Mohammad-Reza Lotfi as good examples.
@trevordeke 14 днів тому
Thanks! I have a free improv gig today, and will be trying to work these quarter tones in. Thanks.
@bobdobbs8397 14 днів тому
I find free improv gigs to be the best venue for quarter tone exploration.
@btbb3726 14 днів тому
It makes a lot of sense because in the case of both sound waves and light waves, the frequency affects the subjective experience and, at least in music (as I understand it?) the mathematical relationships between frequencies influence or dictate how notes sound together.
@farzadmilani 14 днів тому
Yes, but there're some scholars who criticise the whole concept of color-note analogy being arbitrary!
@nevets0910 12 днів тому
Wow that was very interesting!
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
🙏
@CompilerHack 3 дні тому
magenta fuchsia, red, orange-red orange, saffron, amber yellow, chartreuse green, mint-green/teal cyan, sky-blue, deep-blue indigo, violet, purple magenta
@Transterra55 6 днів тому
Chromatic +5.…fascinating video!
@SurfLaCasbah-mm3oi 9 днів тому
excellent! I explain the varied intervals of "Middle Eastern" music (eg Arabic, Turkish, Persian, Kurdish etc) as 3/4 tone music (to distinguish it from "microtones") which I find helpful for Westerners to begin to understand. Also, I like to introduce the semitone only variations of these maqam / dashgar systems as 3/4 tone extensions of the simplified 8 variations (4 major and 4 minor) found in modern Greek and other Balkan folk music.
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
That's true. 🙏
@monoverantus 17 днів тому
Very informative and pedagogic video. I'm an outsider to the subject and this sort of music, so I would appreciate to see examples of how this is used in practice. You refer to the maqam as persian music, but on wikipedia I've only seen it referred to as arabic. Is there an distinction, or is it just the same thing?
@farzadmilani 17 днів тому
Thanks for your compliment. The Persian-Arabic modal system is intertwined to eachother. Many of the manuscripts of the Persian scholars is being written in Arabic language. And many musical terms in Arabic music (even today) is in Persian. I'm going to make more videos explaining different melodic examples.
@monoverantus 17 днів тому
@@farzadmilani I see. As someone mainly interested in orchestral film music, it seems to me that Western composers/audiences have a very specific set of tropes that make music sound Middle Eastern (you know, lots of half-steps and augmented seconds) but rarely ever these quarter notes. So I'm curious to learn more about what real Persian/Arabic music sounds like and how they approach music theory.
@rollomaughfling380 14 днів тому
@@monoverantus Buy some! Or if you're skint, go on a UKposts rabbit hole! It's wonderful music. Start on a search of Djivan Gasparyan on Duduk. Now, Djivan is Armenian, not Arabic, but the music is very similar. In fact, Duduk is used a lot in Persian, Turkish, and other countries' music. But the Duduk did originate out out Armenia, from the Apricot tree. I dunno, mate. It's one place to start.
@Zaphod313 День тому
@@monoverantus It's not that the "augmented second", albeit usually tempered differently than on the piano, is non-existent in Iranian, Arab or Turkish music, but it is definitely over-represented as the sole leitmotif of the Middle East within Western classical music, Hollywood, etc. In reality, Middle Eastern music went through a similar push towards higher chromaticism at roughly the same time that Western music did. However, in the context of Middle Eastern music, chromaticism constitutes not any given deviation from the diatonic scale, but instead more concretely the presence of the chromatic genus of tetrachord with its augmented second, similar to the concept described in Ancient Greek music theory. So it was as part of the elaboration of the rich modal framework that the music got more "chromatic". Still, across the Middle East, modes of the peculiar diatonic scale with neutral tones (3/4-tone steps) are more represented in the repertoire of most traditional musical styles than chromatic modes. But these sound completely alien to Western audiences, and they cannot be approximated on Western fixed-pitch instruments tuned in 12-tone equal temperament or be included in familiar harmonic progressions, which is probably why they aren't referenced.
@michaeldibarry703 18 днів тому
Great video! Where can we read more about the 8 tetrachords? It’s so much more thorough than the four tetrachords of Daryoush Tala’i.
@farzadmilani 18 днів тому
My research is more based on Farhat's, Hedayat's, and Shirazi's treatises. Alghough in the older manuscripts, Segah and Bayat-e Esfahan are considered to be the same, under the title "Iraq", resulting to 7 genera, which is not completely correct in practice today. Similar minimizations might be considered in Talai's version.
@louisaruth 11 днів тому
if i have an obsession, this is it i color coded the 12 tone chromatic scale for myself in such a way that the circle of 5ths/4ths create a rainbow with the black keys all being a blue hue not sure how to incorporate my personal system into micro-tonal music, but what we have here seems to be a complete chromatic scale... or at least a more complete chromatic scale (as you call it)
@striker1992 7 днів тому
Awesome video
@farzadmilani 7 днів тому
🙏
@christopherschneider7346 2 дні тому
That is very,very good explained.Thank you very much.I tried for 3 years to play the santur,but I faild.
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
🙏 I'd say keep working! It's not that difficult.
@whippycream1 7 днів тому
The Hijaz tetrachord sounded the most pleasing to my ears!
@dragonfractal6361 2 дні тому
I love that one, too. I never knew it wasn’t in the chromatic system until today. When I first tried to play it on a keyboard, I was perplexed. Eventually, I came up with D Eb F# G - I thought the small neutral tone was a semitone and the plus tone was a minor third. Now I know why it sounded strange on the piano.
@Zaphod313 День тому
@@dragonfractal6361 Actually, the modern tuning of Hijaz is very close to the Western system in the related Turkish and Arab classical music traditions, and is even sometimes used in modern Persian music. The contemporary Arab classical and Turkish folk music traditions use the exact same intervals for Hijaz as on the piano. Likewise, the many musical traditions of the Balkans and Eastern Europe (e.g., Klezmer music) use the tempered Hijaz with its three-semitone augmented second all the time.
@dragonfractal6361 День тому
@@Zaphod313 Thanks for the information! Comparing variations of similar ideas in different cultures is so fascinating. The time I thought I could not get it quite right on the piano, I was trying to copy a specific song that had influences from Indian classical music.
@KimStennabbCaesar 17 днів тому
The term I've seen used the most when it comes to "microtonal" music, is polychromatic. It fits well with polyrhythmic and polymetric things, language-wise.
@farzadmilani 16 днів тому
Proper suggestion, thanks 🙏
@tonytricks 15 днів тому
I'd call this Poly Chromatic. Very good video,thankyou for sharing
@farzadmilani 15 днів тому
It seems a more appropriate word. Thanks!
@roberttaylor6108 7 днів тому
Isnt polychromatic already a musical system where they use pitch color to create music? It's used to try and standardize many different scale and music types. Trying to make a universal notation using color.
@LillySilver 6 днів тому
Hey Farzad, thank you for sharing this, it's fascinating! I'd love to read your thesis, is it available anywhere?
@farzadmilani 6 днів тому
It shoud be available online of McGill's website in a few months.
@LillySilver 4 дні тому
@@farzadmilani Thank you!
@oliverhunter4427 8 днів тому
Greek options: "heptakaidechromatic" (seventeen-coloured), persochromatic (Persian coloured), or polychromatic (many coloured). Personally I think a Farsi word would be better though, like "heftarangi" or even a Farsi/Greek combo like "heptaranic"
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
Goog suggestions! I like Persochromatic
@michaelvarney4723 5 днів тому
Persochromatic makes sense.
@jandirk4012 3 дні тому
The tone system of the European Baroque period was also a 17 tone system. The flat and sharp notes were different, for instance: A sharp and B flat were not the same, like they are in the modern 12 tone system.
@farzadmilani 3 дні тому
exactly!
@DrLogical987 9 днів тому
17 notes in total if you fix the root. But then if you want to shift tonic you / your instrument might need more. I play nay (intermediate), I can play the super chromatic scale in a few keys, but not all maqam for all tonics because I haven't practiced all possible fractional tones. Of course I can play a transposing Nay. But then the range shifts.... And, in maqam, the actual fraction depends on what you're modulating from. This is just scraping the surface.
@globetrotterdk 12 днів тому
Many thanks for a very interesting and pedagogical video. I play mainly saxophone myself, and while I realize that saxophones are relatively new to Iran, I am wondering if you can suggest any Iranian music for saxophone (Eb, Bb & C) in standard notation (and where it can be purchased).
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
Thanks for your compliment! Actually, saxophone has been a common member of the wood section mostly in popular bands, at least since the 50s (if not earlier) in Iran. I'm not sure if there's any transcription of the Iranian songs specifically for sax. But if you're curios to listen to the tunes, you can find it in a lot of arrangements of Varojan, Erik Arcunt, etc., (performed by Googoosh, Ebi, etc.). Also, nowadays, maybe inspired by Arabic popular music, you can find sax, playing quartertonic modes as a solo instrument in Iranian pop songs.
@Bollixer 2 дні тому
بسیار عالی 👏
@btbb3726 14 днів тому
Interesting. I’m done what colorblind, but I follow you. As a guitar player, this makes me want to explore the 17 note Persian scale via more detailed and meticulous string bending.
@G8tr1522 12 днів тому
you should check out how this guy accomplishes this on guitar: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/sneSnIBkfZd8y40.htmlsi=51ZvH-RW5vRlwyWc it's not the 17-note persian system (he's Turkish), but he made a guitar than has moveable frets, so you can play whatever scales you want.
@rudmun 11 днів тому
nice job
@timlangeloh4679 11 днів тому
Thank you for sharing! This is so helpful for my western ears, giving ways to perceive music in ways i could not before. To continue the conversation you prompted, maybe the name of the scale could be named from a farsi equivelant of chromatic? For example رنگ scale? that way it is still a color scale, but the colors seen from your culture’s perspective. similarly, the chromatic scale would reflect its western perspective, shown through its word for color. this would give a format for other cultures to name and honor their unique perspectives on scales and modes while sharing the universal theory of sound as color with the global music community. this way we affirm the shared experience of music, and celebrate each others interpretations/understandings of it.
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
Nice suggestion, thank you 🙏
@KOZMOuvBORG 6 днів тому
Sesqui-chromatic (combining form denoting one and a half) or Sester-tonic (means two and a half)
@gb747gb 19 днів тому
please, i need examples of songs where i can hear this beautiful system. any recommendations?
@farzadmilani 18 днів тому
I'll make more videos explainimg the applications of the 8 tetrachord genera.
@gb747gb 18 днів тому
@@farzadmilani any specific songs or artists i can listen to that display persian music like this?
@farzadmilani 18 днів тому
@@gb747gb I'd say Mohammed-Reza Shajarian's (singer), Faramarz Payvar (santour player), and Mohammad-Reza Lotfi's (taar player) works are the most accurate ones. There're also a lot of other traditional music performers who sound really good.
@polyvg 11 днів тому
We use colour to identify all sorts of things. Cable cores. Traffic lights. Emotions. And your colour progression makes sense to anyone with good colour vision. However, in common with so many things, as the differences between the shades reduce, when lighting or vision is less than perfect, they become less easy to immediately recognise. I find the colours and letters easy but the indicators of small tonal variations are much more difficult to read. For that reason, it could be useful to add another dimension of identification. For example, using the basic regular polyhedrons, maybe augmented by star-like pointed shapes. Perhaps a C would be a violet triangle? And D an orange square? With the D variants being changed somewhat - maybe a four-point star? Up to a point, the more distinguishing features the better. Even if, as individuals, we only use one or two of those features, having more isn’t really a problem unless it becomes overwhelmingly complicated. After all, coins, banknotes and postage stamps all have a large number of identification features ranging from extremely obvious (big numbers) to extremely subtle (hologram that only appears with specific lighting). We just use the ones that work for us.
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
Makes sense. Thanks for your suggestion. 🙏
@ProfRonanMC 8 днів тому
It would be fascinating to hear examples of music that use some of the scale systems that you mention, to get an idea of the 'flavour' that the tuning imparts to the melody. One suggestion is that if the 12-note chromatic scale is called dodecaphonic, the 17-note scale is dekaeptaphonic. There is a kind of futility in trying to invent words for things that exist in other cultures rather than simply using the name that already exists in that culture. Is there already a word in persian for the general idea of a 17-step system? If not, I would still suggest naming it in persian - your scale, your voice, your choice.
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
Thanks for your comment. Actually the dodecaphonic scale is when 12 tones function separately. The 12-T scale that I described is still functioning as an extension to a Heptatonic diatonic scale, meaning that we still have seven steps in an octave. Same thing for the Persian 17-T system. It's working as a microtonal extension of seven steps. And I don't think there's a title for it in Persian texts.
@ProfRonanMC 4 дні тому
@@farzadmilani Perhaps, then, it is a temprament. The 12-step tempraments are the foundation for the standard heptatonic scales, after all. A major or minor scale can be built on any pitch by placing the semi-tones in specific positions. With meantone temprament, this resulted in quite different colours for different keys. Maybe, then, the 17-notes are Persian temprament, generative of scales that are patterned subsets.
@natoddp1ant 2 дні тому
Great explanation! I took out my turkish bağlama to see if it follows this scale and it was almost the same, but with the tritone intact (F - F# - G ½flat - G). Wonder if it's a difference between persian and turkish music or if my movable frets just need adjusting lol
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
It should be the same (except for the size of neutral intervals) since the Turkish music theory is based on Urmavi's and Maraqi's 17-tone system. Also, there are a lot of songs in Turkish music repertoire of around 17th centurie, made by Persian musicians. That tritone fret has been added probably for modulation purposes. Persian practitioners usually do the same thing.
@natoddp1ant 2 дні тому
@@farzadmilani oh interesting, that makes sense! Thanks for the reply 😊
@catman2u2 7 днів тому
It would have been nice to HEAR some music samples using 17 notes in the scale. Maybe a few harmonies
@farzadmilani 7 днів тому
Don't miss my next video then!
@warp9988 7 днів тому
I grew up finding music containing notes not found commonly in “Western” music hard to listen to, and what was a breakthrough for me was falling in love with the “Filmi” (movie soundtrack) version of Indian music, especially Moh’d Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar, and through that was introduced to Qawali and Indian classical music styles, and through that, to Sufi and Persian music. I feel that at some point in the past a hard movement to codify (in some western countries) exactly the current western Chromatic system and temperament was made, probably because our brains like to commit to and codify systems. Is there anything to my idea? Is there some cognitive or brain-function reason for why we become so attached to our specific scales and intervals? The current dominant form of temperament (tuning) in western music is arbitrary, some would say. There is a growing amount of experimentation in western music with other temperaments, which seem to me, a way of borrowing JUST A BIT of the tonal colors found in say, a persian 17-tone system’s color palette. I think your idea of color palettes is a very good explanatory idea.
@farzadmilani 7 днів тому
Thanks for your comment and compliment! I believe being confined to tones and half-tones is a matter of cultural taste, as well as popularization of the piano.
@nikigba 13 днів тому
great video man tashakkor
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
🙏
@ryanmichelson218 6 днів тому
The colors align much better actually if you arrange them based on the circle of 5ths rather than the chromatic scale
@farzadmilani 6 днів тому
I'll explain that in a separate video about Pythagorean tuning and Persian music
@FelipeTellez 13 днів тому
Very fascinating Farzad. I would be very curious to read your master's thesis. Is it available online? or perhaps, could you make it available to me(us)? I would love to dive deeper!
@farzadmilani 13 днів тому
Thanks man! 🙏 It should be available online in a few months on McGill website. I'm going to review the important topics gradually in my upcoming videos.
@FelipeTellez 13 днів тому
@@farzadmilani that's very exciting! I look forward to it!
@99billbob 15 днів тому
Hello very interesting video. Why is the tritone excluded? Just in classical Persian systems? Have others broken the mold and included it? Thanks
@farzadmilani 15 днів тому
Thanks! The tritone interval on piano (12-ET) is an extrimely deviated interval from the values in natural harmonic series. In the Persian 17-tone system, a natural representative of tritone is F-quarter-sharp, which is presented as a generative ratio (either 11:8 or 13:8) to obtain the other neutral intervals. I'll explain it in a seperate video.
@Yo_ca_va 12 днів тому
Thank you, you picked my interest, now I want to dissect every little details of these musics, get closer to a real understading of them. So I can just read "Persian-Arabic Seventeen-Tone Temperament: A Microtonal Extension to the Heptatonic Scale" somewhere ? Do I need some knowledge first ? I only really know about European music theory... but first, let's be silly, 2:58 Why do you have so little respect for Gb ? You don't call it Gb but "the tritone", you assigne it just a "random colour", gee, I understand that this interval is "extremely deviated from its representative in the Harmonic Series" but that's no reason 1:43 I appreciate the effort put in syncing the music and the video really I do 1:02 Where do this wheel comes from ? Is it ancient French written on it ? Was the word vert (the french for green) used to be written verd as it is on the wheel ? I guess that's why words like "verdure" and "verdoyant" (green related stuff) are written with a d and not a t, mmh, interesting, I was not expecting to learn about French here
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
Thanks for your comment. - Tritone is not a harmonically relative interval to the first note of the system (C). All other notes are, with more or less appeasements. - I'm happy that you realized that synchronization with the song :) - That's Claude Boutet's color circle from 1708.
@NickAnanas 12 днів тому
Very nice thank you. I vote for quarter chromatic
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
nice title! 🙏
@memarkiam 11 днів тому
Fascinating. Thank you. But would have loved you to have played some Persian music using a 17 note scale so we could hear it in action. Real missed opportunity.
@farzadmilani 11 днів тому
Thanks man! Sure I'll do.
@dimzen5406 17 днів тому
This is mindblowing, like emotional translation between civilisations. What i haven't got is how many steps need to cross whole octave, 22 or something else?
@farzadmilani 17 днів тому
Thanks for your comment. If you mean "equal" steps, it needs to be 53 (a result of nine-fold division of a whole tone). I'll explain it later in a different video. Also, 24-ET (as an acceptable reduction) works for most of the modes.
@Dayanto 17 днів тому
@@farzadmilani I assume you meant "nine-fold division of the _wholetone"._ 53 TET has a 9-step wholetone and two different semitones that are 5 and 4 steps respectively.
@farzadmilani 17 днів тому
@@Dayanto exactly! I edited the reply
@ismiregalichkochdasjetztso3232 16 днів тому
@@farzadmilaniI'd like to see that video!
@dliessmgg 14 днів тому
You could call it enharmonic modes, in relation to the ancient greek modes that used steps that couldn't be expressed in semitones. Two questions: What is the distinction between a large & small neutral tone? Are there rules for which tetrachords can be stacked together?
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
The Greek enharmonic tetrachord genus consists of quartartone intervals! We don't have any stepwise intervals smaller than semitone in Persian/Arabic/Turkish music. I'll explain the difference between two sizes of the neutral tones in a seprate video. There are a collection of melodic figures in Persian dastgah music (also in today's Arabic maqamat) that shows the possible good-sounding connection of the tetrachords. Usually musicians use those pre-designed models/figures to make a new music.
@memduhg 2 дні тому
Excellent summary, is the thesis available to read somewhere?
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
It should be accessible online on McGill's website in a few months.
@moroboshidan7960 5 днів тому
How about "Persian"?
@runarlejou1151 5 днів тому
It's possible to play and hear the 53 intervals on your desktop computer with the Danielou Semantic virtual synthesizer. It includes a 17-tone tuning, maybe close to the Persian sytem ?
@farzadmilani 5 днів тому
Exactly true! The closest equal divition to the Persian 17-tone system is 53-EDO. It gives approximation closer to the values from the natural harmonic series.
@world_musician 11 днів тому
Very nice info! Can I ask why the tritone is removed? Tar and Setar have a pardeh / fret at this interval and it is needed to play many gusheh. Chahargah and Isfahan on Sol for example.
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
There's no tritone in older sources. Regarding Isfahan, it could be because of the confusion after Vaziri's notion of 24-EDO (as you know we have two Isfahans, one is older).
@world_musician 10 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Is the radif of Mirza Abdollah an older source? Please correct my misunderstanding. When I listen to the Gushe Hesar in Chahargah, I hear it uses the tritone a lot. Can you confirm? His Tar is tuned to C and the tritone is F#. The tritone in Isfahan/Homayoon is B and F natural if tuned to C. Is this correct? Thank you for sharing your knowledge of Persian music! I've been playing tar and studying with my ostad for years and never run out of questions :)
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
@@world_musician When I say "older" sources, I mean the treatises from 13th-15th centuries, and the contemporary explainations, like Hedayat's. Mirza Abdollah's trascription was done after 24-EDO accomodation in 40s if I'm not wrong.
@world_musician 10 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Oh wow Ok I see you're going very far back! I thought the Mirza Abdollah Radif for Tar dates to early 1900s as ostad died in 1918. Ali Naqi Vaziri was a student of his. If you listen to his radif, and see up close musicians playing his Gushe Hesar in Chahargah it uses a tritone F# no koron notes. Its a modulation of the shahed to Sol, making the tritone act as the natural 7th. I do think that is the one and only example of a tritone i've ever heard in Persian music though! You can tell which note it is since Tar and Setar has frets. Its much harder to tell what note is used on kemance ney or voice obviously. The difference between F koron and the tritone is small and the note is only played briefly!
@seangriffiths8036 12 днів тому
I researched this 15 years ago and forget the exact details but do remember there was a surprising correlation between the frequency of a mid range octave beginning with A @ 440hz and the colour red 430/440 terahertz…there were similar intervals between the notes of an octave and the colours of a rainbow. I concluded eyes are tuned similarly to ears but react to waves orders of magnitude higher. I’ll admit I’m no scientist but think the subject needs further research. The light spectrum slides between each colour and this would allow for the Persian scale you describe.
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
Thanks for your comment
@nmvhr 5 днів тому
Nice
@HarDiMonPetit 10 днів тому
A question: can you transpose on each of the 17 tones? Probably not if you don't use the other quarter tones - or?
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
The system is relatively pitched, which meanis that the interval between the tones does not change, but you can traspose it to any key note. For instance your first note could be D instead of C, resultedly you get different set of notes. The modulation happens between diffenet tetrachord genera.
@Felonious_Punk 11 днів тому
A few ideas: Celestial scale, Paradisiac scale, Persian scale
@farzadmilani 10 днів тому
Merci
@hansvaneck8503 12 днів тому
Interesting, reminds me of ancient Greek music, the 'shades'. The chromatic and the super-chromatic being forbidden by Plato in his 'The State'. I wonder how the Persian scales are created. Does the (conjunct or disjunct) tetrachords are the same in a scale, or can you have different tetrachords in a scale.
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
Thank you. It pretty musch works the same as the Ancient Greek system. Yes, the two tetrachords can be different (sometimes even the ascending tetrachord is different than the descending, in one single scales)
@hansvaneck8503 9 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Very interesting, that makes for very flexibel music with a lot of possibilities for expression!
@poisonedmuk4796 7 днів тому
How can I find your thesis? I would really love to dive deeper in this subject.
@farzadmilani 7 днів тому
It'll be on McGill's website in a few months
@unequally-tempered 6 днів тому
How can this be related to 12 tone systems before 12th root 2 Equal temperament? Is there a historic 12 tone tuning where approximations to the 17 tone can be made?
@farzadmilani 6 днів тому
It has to do with the musical ratios. I'll explain it in a separate video.
@unequally-tempered 6 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Thanks - some of the 1/4 comma and 1/5th comma unequal temperaments have near mathematical ratio intervals . . .
@ValkyRiver 3 дні тому
Is the Persian 17-tone system a subset of 24-TET? If not, what are some TETs that contains all of the notes in the 17-tone system?
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
24-EDO gives acceptable approximations for most of the modes, but it sounds mechanical. The best equal division of the octave that properly fits is 53-EDO.
@ValkyRiver 2 дні тому
@@farzadmilani is the 17-tone system a subset of 5-limit JI? (Since if that was the case, then it makes sense why 53-TET would fit very well)
@farzadmilani 2 дні тому
@@ValkyRiver No, actually it's a combination of the Pythagorean 3-limit ratios and 13-limit ratios (accoring to one of the suggestions) for the six neutral tones.
@Zaphod313 День тому
For practical purposes, you can think of it that way. In all of the Middle Eastern traditions, it's essentially twelve Pythagorean chromatic notes + a varying number of neutral intervals, which have been described throughout history by Middle Eastern theorists either as schismatic 5-limit intervals (e.g., a 65536/59049 minor tone) within extended Pythagorean, or (truer to modern practice) using superparticular ratios like 12/11 or 13/12 for the neutral seconds. 24 EDO approximates this system well, which is why it was seen as a viable option and why it was ultimately adopted in the Arab world in 1932. In practice, various shades of these neutral tones are used, but whether an actual semantic distinction is made between the different shades depends on the musical style in question. The fixed pitch instruments of contemporary Arab and Persian music, as well as Turkish folk music, are set up for playing just the 5 extra notes in addition to the Pythagorean chromatic scale. This means that one shade per neutral is deemed enough, at least within the context of a single performance, to properly render any piece of music. On the other hand, Turkish classical music may use up to five different shades per neutral (meaning some of the "neutrals" are now very close to 5-limit JI) and change several of these within a single performance, usually using the lower shades as cadential inflections, and the higher ones to lessen the dissonance in implied major triads. For this purpose, the Turkish kanun (traditional zither) uses a subset of 72 EDO, with all the melodic intervals that it provides in the space between a semitone and a tone (between 6 and 12 steps of 72 EDO), while the tanbur and the lavta lutes are usually fretted for playing 4 or 3 shades, respectively.
@CelsoARRibeiro День тому
This is a very didactic and interesting video! However, you lost me when you said the 6 new notes introduced by Persian Music are not necessarily quarter steps. I kept wondering, is the tuning of these particular notes consistently varied, or unimportant in Persian Music? For example, in Indian music, I was taught the nonexistent notes in Western music are somewhat consistent, being combined in different arrangements to form hundreds of different *ragas*, Indian music scales. But regarding music produced by hundreds of indigenous people in South America (not all, though), they are a lot less preoccupied with pitch precision when producing a musical instrument. When they produce a flute, for example, it will not be thrown away or adjusted if some notes drift away from their notion of "correct notes", which they do have. Instead, they will argument that it is "the instrument's truth", and draw particular kinds of music from the possibilities given by that specific flute, as many indigenous people do not register any melodies, but pass techniques of improvisation along generations. So I ask of you, which of these examples is better to explain the 6 particular notes from Persian Music? Or maybe neither?
@Zaphod313 День тому
In all of the Middle Eastern traditions, it's essentially twelve Pythagorean chromatic notes + a varying number of neutral intervals, which have been described throughout history by Muslim theorists either as schismatic 5-limit intervals (e.g., a 65536/59049 minor tone) within extended Pythagorean, or (truer to modern practice) using superparticular ratios like 12/11 or 13/12 for the neutral seconds. 24-TET approximates this system of 12 Pythagorean pitches and 5 neutral intervals well, which is why it was seen as a viable option and why it was ultimately adopted in the Arab world in 1932. In practice, various shades of these neutral tones are used, but whether an actual semantic distinction is made between the different shades depends on the musical style in question. The fixed pitch instruments of contemporary Arab and Persian music, as well as Turkish folk music, are set up for playing just the 5 extra notes in addition to the Pythagorean chromatic scale. This means that one shade per neutral is deemed enough, at least within the context of a single performance, to properly render any piece of music. On the other hand, Turkish classical music may use up to five different shades per neutral and change several of these within a single performance, usually using the lower shades as cadential inflections, and the higher ones to lessen the dissonance in implied major triads. For this purpose, the Turkish kanun (traditional zither) uses 72-TET, while the tanbur and the lavta lutes are usually fretted for playing 4 or 3 shades, respectively.
@farzadmilani День тому
I was going to reply until I saw @Zaphod313 's explaination, which is good and detailed. Only a few considerations - Even in Persian music we use different versions of the neutral tones, depending on the scale being ascending or descending, or even the scale degree (for instance, a neutral third, when it functions as the centeric tone of the mode, is more quartertonic, than a neutral second, which usually functions as a sensible note). Also, I hesitate to use the paradoxical and ironic combination of "Muslim theorist"! since art and music has always been a victim of hostility by Islam. The life of these artists/scholars only coincided with the Islamic era, and most of them selected to write their treatises in Arabic, since it was the lingui franca of the time.
@Zaphod313 День тому
@@farzadmilani I appreciate your perspective. There are many legitimate reservations one can have with regards to the terms commonly used when discussing anything about the broader Middle East, including the very name of the region itself. One is often forced to make a compromise between being accurate and their message being understandable. With this in mind, my intention was not to be reductive and imply that this music stems from Islam or is intrinsically tied to it, but to signal to its and its representatives' cultural roots in the "Muslim commonwealth", referring specifically to the parts of cultural heritage shared between the Arab world, Iran, and Turkey. In my field (sociology), an often-made operational distinction is that between the adjectives "Islamic" and "Muslim", the former relating strictly to religious matters, and the latter to culture. I realize that this dichotomy can be problematic, but ethnic and other sorts of labels can as well, especially in this context.
@robbes7rh 8 днів тому
I really like the discussion about theory and looking at similarities with the theory of light. But honestly the quarter tones sound to me like a tuning error. I accept the idea that I need to become more familiar with a fuller palette of tonal color. It’s interesting that these other tones are desirable in another culture.
@farzadmilani 8 днів тому
I've always wondered why the Western (international!) ears accept the small size of the half-tone but resist considering the three-quarter-tone interval, which is larger than the half-tone and logically should be more pleasant!
@robbes7rh 4 дні тому
@@farzadmilani -- I don't understand why this is either, but if I were to guess I would posit that some aspects of culture are more difficult for foreigners to become accustomed. Like the capsaicin factor in chili spices. Most people in the West simply cannot handle the hot curries of South Indian cuisine. To my palate, the amount of hot pepper spice they cook with renders the dish virtually inedible. With regard to music, I have become somewhat familiar with the maqamat of North Africa and the Levant, and I can hear the expressive beauty in a couple of the stretched intervals. I'm not there yet with the traditional classical music of Persia. But I'm far from foreclosed on the matter. I've noticed young people online showing interest in music that goes beyond the tempered 12 tones of a piano. Well, traditional Persian music is already there, and has been for centuries!
@Lucius_Chiaraviglio 14 днів тому
The Xenharmonic Wiki page on Arabic, Turkish, Persian music section nequal temperaments for maqamat mentions Margo Schulter's 17 note Turquoise17 scale, but unfortunately the link from that is dead.
@farzadmilani 12 днів тому
There're different senarios for the 17 tones, but consider that the Equal Division of the Octave does not work in this case. The system is more based on the ratios from the natural harmonic series.
@Lucius_Chiaraviglio 12 днів тому
@@farzadmilani I know -- you have to scroll past a bunch of stuff about equal divisions of the octave to see where they talk about unequal temperaments, but then unfortunately the link they give to an unequal 17 note temperament (possibly a just intonation approximation) is dead.
@user-ig8pd9qn5h 12 днів тому
Just from looking at the piano I know: Pentatonic is all black Heptatonic is all white 12tone is just black and white. What we find beyond is true colour.
@thomaskinsey3424 8 днів тому
And if you play guitar - 0 3 5 is all the color you need if you have any talent
@user-ig8pd9qn5h 8 днів тому
@@thomaskinsey3424 well, since I don't have talent you need to explain.
@darksecret965 5 днів тому
@@user-ig8pd9qn5h It's a meme in the guitar community about a song called Smoke On The Water which is very simple easy to play and overplayed by every beginner to the point of annoyance
@user-ig8pd9qn5h 5 днів тому
I happen to know that song. :-D Thanks for clarifying.
@dragonfractal6361 3 дні тому
Persian Hyperchromatic tuning system
@RechtmanDon 11 днів тому
δεκαεπτά (dekaepta): “seventeen” [note that δ is named "theta" and is pronounced as "th". Thus the actual pronunciation is "thea ka ep tah".] Thus the 17 note scale is the dekaeptatonic scale; I'd suggest shortening it and calling it simply the "thekatonic" scale ("the" pronounced as "thea").
@squodge 10 днів тому
δ = delta, not theta. Also, it's customary to use Ancient Greek spelling/transliteration rather than Modern Greek for scientific use - so 'heptakaideka' would be 17 (cf 'triskaidekaphobia' = "fear of the number 13"). So 'heptakaideka' is literally "7 and 10", pronounced exactly as spelled. So the term based on Ancient Greek would be 'heptakaidekatonic' - a bit of a mouthful, but 'triskaidekaphobia' as a word exists in English without issue.
@RechtmanDon 10 днів тому
@@squodge oop. Worked on this when waay too sleepy! Of course delta, not theta ϑ ! So how about heptadekatonic for short?
@yvesbajulaz 9 днів тому
It seems to be a system based part on mathematical ratios (chromatic) and the extra notes based on extra emotional content. Both side of the brain, logical and emotional. A more complete system.
@farzadmilani 9 днів тому
The entire pitches are based on the ratios from the natural harmonic series. I'll explain it in a separate video.
@yvesbajulaz 9 днів тому
@@farzadmilani Is it just the upper harmonic extensions? You just go further?
@farzadmilani 9 днів тому
@@yvesbajulaz Actually it's based on Pythagorean 3:2 paralleled with a generative ratio from either eleventh (11:8) or thirteenth (13:8) harmonics.
@yvesbajulaz 9 днів тому
@@farzadmilani thx :-)
@cubicinfinity2 6 днів тому
17 is the "Majestic Scale"
@cmaxxen 17 днів тому
Surchromatic ?
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