Time to think again about the Roman Empire, third time this week

With the trend of more unique castle appearances for newer dlc civs, I'd love to see the dev artists go back and revise a number of the original civs' castles too

One good nod is lack of Supplies. Showing the Romans difficulty in replacing lost soldiers.

7:27 Spirit just casually blowing my mind, I had never thought about an entire army of 'champions' not making any sense XD

Its probably worth noting that the classical roman steel plated armour (lorica segemntata) isn’t really comparable to the steel plate armour warn during the late middle ages, so Roman's not having access to the final armour upgrade does kinda make sense. The lorica segamntate was really made of serval small strips of steel tied together and they were unable to make solid larger plates like those used by late medieval knights.

The "classic" Roman legionary depiction with lorica segmentata and rectangular shield, was actually only used for a relatively short time in the Roman state's history.

Another fun little detail you might have missed with the unique Roman castle: If you zoom riiiiight in, between the arches under the double-gated, just below the banner, you can see a little plaque labelled 'CASTVM', or Castrum-- the term for the standardized fort that legionnaires would build to encamp. Personally, I think it would have been cool to see the legionaries for the Romans have some sort of dynamic not unlike the Sicilan Serjeant, where they can build defensive fortifications as part of their core functionality. But the devs did a great job with what they've done here IMO :)

Spears are also easier to manufacture, requiring just a point of metal, rather than… a whole swords-worth. Being able to out-range other, sword-based infantry is also a big plus.

I like that they added Romans. Now, when you play the Hun or Alaric campaign, you actually fight Romans now. If anything should have been controversial, it should have been those campaigns. But since we already crossed the pre-500 ad line as early as the Conquerors, I'm happy to have Romans officially as a civ.

One thing that you should've mentioned under the Architecture section is that the preexisting Mediterranean Watch and Guard Towers are based on real-life Roman observation towers, adding an extra layer of authenticity whenever you play the Romans and build towers. Sometimes I refuse to upgrade to Keeps just to keep (hah) the immersion going. That being said, the Romans really should've had a tower bonus like their counterpart in AoE1...

So would you say the switch back to rounded shields was to cut corners?

10:41 that actually sounds like a cool idea, instead of 5%, give them an insane 15% or even 20% in dark age, but as you advance you lose 10% each age up encouraging you to stay an age lower for a longer period of time and suffering in late game if you weren't aggressive enough

Remember that in The Conquerors the developers added Huns as a playable civ. Along with a playable campaign, focusing on their invasion on Europe. They invaded when Western Roman Empire was still existing, albeit on its last legs. Then I guess that devs have already messed up the game's storyline way before the appearance of Romans.

it's always important to note that strategy games highly rely on readability of units, even if you might not be perfectly familiar with them, so giving the legionaries a spear might mislead people that they directly counter cavalry rather than being a strong (anti) infantry unit

Note that the Lorica Segmentata "IS NOT" Plate Armor but more of a Banded Armor similar to the ones used by the Historical Samurai and Winged Hussars.

Another factor that might have contributed to the use of oval shields was that swords had gotten longer, and rounded shields are easier for long blades to maneuver around.

As someone who knows about history, I can tell you that the design of the Centurion unit is not bad, what is wrong is the name they chose for the unit and that it actually seems to represent the late Roman cavalry (those who were can be seen represented in other RTS games such as Attila: Total War, especially those that appear in the Belisarius campaign), this cavalry was the direct ancestor of the Cataphracts of the Byzantine civilization, which are much later between the years 800 A.D. to 1200 A.D., while the Late Roman is from 300 B.C. to 600 A.D. (the wrongly called Centurions). Having settled that, it must be taken into account that the majority of Roman commanders and officers of these times (those that represent the Civilization of the Romans), were armed similarly to the cataphracts (at least the ranks above the centurion), therefore It is not unreasonable that the unit performs the function of Centurion, but it should not have that name, but rather another name that is in accordance with that cavalry, such as a "Decurion" (they were on horseback).

Another touch I like when it comes to the gameplay of the Romans is how they can get screwed if they experience even moderate amounts of raiding. Raids affecting their already vulnerable economy was one of the major factors leading to their downfall, so I do like that touch a lot (even if it might not have been intentional).

As for the second hypothesis on the Legionnaire you have to consider that the Romans themselves became less roman over time, as more and more Auxilia were given Roman citizenship for their service. Also the Auxillia were given the same training and equipment as the legionaries so it might have been logistically more feasible.

Would be great to have some more campaign history videos 😊

A spear-armed legionary on the end of the spear line would be cool

I am so glad you brought this series back, great video.

That's a solid sponsor for this video. The Centurion being on Horse is an obvious inconsistency, but then, there's so many of them in the game, it feels like a small thing.

Love the history vids. Keep it up!

I missed this series 👍 Great to see it again

Finally! Been waiting for more episodes in this series

Just to add something to your analysis regarding the weapons used by legionnaries : in fact they did use mainly spears. Everyone did. Since prehistoric times up to the end of Renaissance. And the reason is pretty simple : it is the most effective, simple, cheap, and dissuasive weapon you can produce (let's remind that it's a range weapon), the only one you could mass produce at the time (it's an arrow, but bigger and simpler), and it was very easy to manipulate, there was not much to learn : you thrust, you can throw sometimes. Broadswords were used mainly by Celts and later Germans (but again, a lot less than spears), who were far superior to Romans in mettalurgy, and Romans adapted it to their legions to improve their fighting in close combats such as sieges, or melee fighting. But it was, indeed, a secondary weapon, and it was closer to a big knife than to a medieval sword. And it never was mass produced as spears did : it was a lot more expensive, and the quality wasn't always good (a bad sword can break like glass, a bad spear is still a dangerous spear). During the Middle Ages, weapons such as swords were almost never used in battles. They were a noble weapon, very expensive, very rare, a remarkable sign of craftsmanship, but more of a parade weapon. The reason why we believed that it was so commonly used is because we found a lot of them in tombs, but didn't find that much spears or axes, because people were not burried with them (and of course metal resists time far better than wood). And of course swords are a lot more graceful than spears, so Hollywood used them a lot. Concerning axes, they were commonly used, much more than swords. All tools in fact were commonly used during Medieval wars, for men at arms had to equip themselves. Last but not least, armors evolved with weapons : first they consisted in thick clothes such as fur, but as weapons became sharper, with the use of bows and spears mainly, people started to use leather scale armors and chainmails, which block the penetration, making pointy things almost useless. Their only downside is that they don't "absord" the shock. Plates were introduced to do that : no more swords, axes or maces of any kind could go through. Arbalests were designed to pierce armors of any kind, but plate armors at their best could withstand a bolt easily. That's the reason why gunpower was introduced, and armors started to shrink, until now, when bodyarmors still exist, but are limited. That's all for today, see you next time 🙂

15:20 - that's Greek, not Latin.

Honestly, the 3rd and 4th century Rome is compleatly underrepresented in media. And while I agree that the medivals didnt realy start till the western romans truely fell, I think the type of romans depicted in aoe2 is still fitting enough to be included. Similar to how the Spanish that are depicted, are technically just after the fall of eastern rome / byzantine.

15:15 - *Chi Rho* (☧) symbol combines the first two letters of the name of Christ in Greek actually (ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ), not Latin. PS: *Chi Rho* also appears on Cataphract shield, of the Byzantines.

Great work as always

I wish they had square shields, but I'm glad you talked about it, because until now I had no idea why they decided to go for the oval shields.

I actually really appreciate the history about the Late Roman Empire. It feels like all I ever hear about the latter years of the empire was "oh they were getting sacked by the Germanic tribes, everything was on fire and everything sucks", and people rarely talk about how the empire actually responded in those final years and how much society has changed by then compared to earlier eras

FINALLY, I love this series and its finally continuing. Cant wait to see more of this.

You don't often make these kinds of videos but when yu do, it's great.

An actually good sponsor thank you spirit

Always love the history videos!

The late empire legionaries were called comitatenses which is deprived from company and while you are mostly correct, their main weapon wasn't spear but it still was a sword, shield and two pilum. Spear infantry mainly consisted of Auxillia, continuing the tradition of mid empire. There is also another misconception about lorca segmentata, because considering its structure, it was definately faster to manufacture, thus cheaper to produce overall as the armor consisted of small sheets of iron linked with leather straps while mail needs many hundreds if not thousands of iron rings put together by hand. It is believed that segmentata was actually a stop gap for constantly increasing numbers of a roman army.

Yes!!! I’ve been wanting a AoE2 vs history

Always hyped for SoTL content!

I did hear Centurions sometimes rode on horseback. While they did not fight on them, they used them for non-fighting purposes. The higher position makes the easier to be seen, makes it easier for them to see the battlefield. And gave them mobility, to chase down fleeing soldiers or to form a line while on the march. Also, I do remember a "all Centurion" unit from history. They were snuck into a enemy camp and lit it on fire.

At this point I think every Civ in the game needs thier own unique looking castle.

They did a great job. I like that they didn't just copy aspects of AOE1 ( Except, of course, the infantry theme) They somehow managed to renew the civ. I just wished they had done it sooner, it would have been awesome to play

love the history stuff, would definitely be interested in more of this sereis!

I love the history videos! Great job!

dude you are legend, thanks for the content

I can only imagine how difficult it could've been but there should've been a Historia Civilis cameo appearance in this vid😪

I see their bonuses to the knight line, and the Centurio being on a horse, as the romans slipping into and addapting feudalism and the medivals. Or more, adapting what medival feudal nations were appearing in the once roman lands

Romans having Scale and Chain Mail armors only but them giving +2 armor is also a nice nod to Age of Empires 1 where these armors were also present and with +2 armor upgrade. Plus the last armor upgrade was Chain Mail hence no Plate Mail for the Romans. The fact that it keeps AoE2 balance at the same time is brilliant!

I feel like the shingles on the Mediterranean set for Romans should be much brighter than they are for other Mediterranean civs to give them a "fresher" look, whereas the other Mediterranean sets should look more worn like the architecture has been there for centuries. Plus the Roman buildings should not have domes (unless the building in question is the Pantheon, which would've made a good Wonder for the Romans too)

The thing about the late roman navy is that they had moments of powerfulness, or potential, before some backstabbing shenanigans screwed everything up... but then, that describes the entire time period right up even a bit after the end.

Awesome series! Super good history lesson.

I think that charge attack can be interpreted as javelins/darts thrown right before the melee fight.

Fun stuff dood!

I guess I would have been better in history class when listening to you as my teacher… Keep going this awesome quality!❤

Interesting to watch, thank you :)

I've been following your channel for a couple of years now 😅 and absolutely dig it. Do you have any intentions on maybe doing something similar for other strategy games? I've been playing a lot of Dune Spice Wars lately and I figured it needs such a creator like you 😅

When you watch Roman Galleons + Dromons fighting other Galleons + Dromons it looks pretty much exactly like a naval fight in AoE1.

I think that, in addition to the obvious balance choice (can you imagine roman infantry with +6/+6 armor?) their infantry armor line stopping at chain mail is also a nod the Aoe1, since that was the last level of armor for all units there and the aoe1 romans do have access to it for their infantry

I was so close to going a whole day without thinking about the Roman Empire.

Another Video YEA!

Don't know anything about the sponsor but dudes already got a new customer...

10:39 Balance matters notwithstanding, this could have been implemented, in the form of making the bonus depend on the amount of Town Centers you have.

I guess a more realistic mechanism for the centurion would be if you don't recruit them separately, but just every 10th or such recruited soldier becomes one. (And it's still a foot unit.) To represent the actual legionaries using spears, I guess you just need to set up a mixed group of pikemen and legionaries.

I have been asked four times this week how often I think about the Roman Empire So here I am, thinking about the Roman Empire

Yay I love your history videos!!

I think reason why they didn't give Legionary a spear lies in familiarity. Because player association with spear is different in AOE2 and Legionary isn't anti cavalry. So to make quick association of what unit is supposed to be easier, sword makes more sense, even if not completely accurate. I think similar is true with buildings. Since being able to tell them apart is easier when things are somewhat familiar is better. Though having few different designs in between is fine, where it makes sense. Like castle despite looking different is easy to recognize. Navy likely was pure gameply decision. Probably a little bit also marketing one, since you do want new civilization to be good enough to sell DLC. Like there were worse offenders in it in gaming than Romans here though, DLC adding overpowered thing that is overpowered for little while before they slowly start nerfing it to where it is supposed to be, but not too fast, because people bought DLC... :-D

Hello! It's not connecting to this video, but could be an interesting concept for you in the future. It's about which units count as light cavalry in terms of the Hindustani team bonus. To me it seems it effects steppe lancers and shrivamsha riders. It may also apply to certain unique units. I don't have the nerves and patience to test it, nor do I have a channel for video publishing, but for a person like you it might serve well.

I think that the bits about the Centurion are especially right. Maybe renaming them to Clibanarius or something might make them better?

a new SoTL Video!

You're such a nerd. I love that a video game caused you to want to learn and share all this stuff.

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the developers doing such good research and still making it fit into a game. It is really impressive.

Liking this if for no other reason than the “full circle” joke

LOLOLOL the sponsor was genius xD SOTL as usual.

The Romans actually could not create plate armor a la a medieval knight, that took advances in metallurgy. Good video overall!

Insanely awesome concept for a video, would love to see more of these for aoe civs!

Nice video. I think they should make Romans fall off in strength towards imperial age. Since they might need a nerf anyway, why not make their villager work bonus regress, like +7% in dark age, +2% in feudal, -2% in castle and -7% in imperial age.

an interesting thing they could've done is giving the Legionaries the ability to switch weapon like the Rathas. They could switch between a short sword (faster and higher base attack, perfect against infantry) and a spear (slower, weaker base attack but with a massive bonus against cavalry). Halberdiers could be removed if necessary for balance purposes

Not sure if this is true, but given the change from tall/long shields to oval shields it made sense to me. I say this because in close combat, if you were fixated on attacking or defending, you'd be looking up or ahead and not down at the enemies feet. So in theory, if you looked down, you'd get hit, so it can make sense that because the legs were not aimed at, you didn't need to protect it? On top of easier production and reduced materials use for the shields.

Yesss more aoe2 vs history!

I am now a meme, thinking about the Roman Empire...

I think it would have been hilarious, albeit a bit confusing, if you referred to the historical late Roman Empire as „the weak late game“

the only thing that bothers me about romans is their wonder, that tiny coliseum recycled from AoE 1 (where all buildings are small compared to AoE 2), could be update/replaced for one of the assets from the campaigns, like the arch of constantine or the big coliseum, to fit better with the rest of the building size

They should give every civ and unique castle, with all the new ones doing that I wish they could show castles being more specific to how it really would look

So they switched to rounded shields to save on cost. One could say they cut corners!

Could be interesting for the economic bonus to decline as they age up. +10% to everything in Dark Age, reduced to +5% in Feudal, +0% in Castle, and (-5)% in Imperial Age

Not only are the Centurions on horseback, they're using stirrups, which weren't in use in Europe yet.

12:00: also the nobilty of the Roman horsemen was one of the main inspirations for the knight as an honourbound warrior.

Before the single plates the roman already had mail in most of the army. The lamella plates were only in usage very short and made popular by the Asterix comics because they were easier to draw. (The very first comic had mail because it was more hisorical. )

Could you perhaps make a video about how many land units you have to hit with demolition ships for it to be cost-effective? You have made such an analysis about petards, concluding that they are most of the time not cost-effective. However, demolition ships have much higher attack and a larger blast radius, making it easier to pay back their cost when attacking bunched up land units in shallows. I know it's a situation restricted to certain maps, but I think if you can pull it off on a hybrid map, it can be highly cost-effective. You don't have to hit a lot of, for example, trebuchets, to be cost-effective with demo ships. Heavy demolition ships take down a generic trebuchet in two hits, but cost less than half of a trebuchet, so that's cost-effective even if only one trebuchet is hit per demo ship. With some other units, for example gold-intensive infantry or archers, I'm certain you can easily get some great value out of demo ships as well. What I can't estimate is if heavy demo ships would be a valid anti-trash unit with bottomed out market prices. ... in addition to possible cost-effectiveness, there's also the aspect of being able to destroy an enemy army without risking most of your own, either because you are rebuilding your forces and need more time, or because you have an army and plan to attack once you've blown up the enemy's forces. This aspect however is difficult to quantify.

They could just named them tribunes instead of centurions and that would fix the problem... and gave them Vth century helmets. I also wished they could have used something closer to the Late Empire than a Colloseum.

AoE2 adding civs that already collapsed, AoE3 adding civs that didn't exist yet... just combine all the games into one already.

"Came full circle" haha

They could have applied a mechanic wehere you can only make one centurion for every 10 legionaries you have and then in turn make give them a huge influence bonus every time they attack (like warrior monks from AoE4)

I stand by the fact that, if the Huns were okay to have in AoE2, then the WRE is not a problem to have whatsoever either. Though they really shouldn't have used Republic and Early Empire names for the units.

ah good video of the spirit is love

12:39: The Romans were also very innovative particularly with the use of the Corvus.

Would it be unbalanced for Legionaries to be able to swap between throwing spears to their swords? Like they are trained as Skirmishers but like that Chariot unit, they can switch to close range swords for anti-infantry bonuses?

Metatron! I call upon you! Would love to see review/reaction to this video

While I agree on most parts - the Lorica Segmentata wasn't that widespread. Mail Armor was basically always the Number 1 armor. But people know Lorica Segmentata (and prefer its looks, just like I do) better and if you tell them to imagine a Legionary they will usually think of a soldier wearing that armor, even if it wasnt the main armor for most of republican and imperial times.