My favourite language too, and very much agree on the type system. I’ve had a list of things Rust does worse than Swift, especially with the type system, but I’m glad to see Rust start to tick a few of those off my list. The two languages really are competing but also working together which is great.

Lost all interest in swift when I learned about the absurd callback syntax.

@@isodoubIet swift has concurrency now. One of the best concurrency systems of any language. You can now use standard async await for async functions instead of having to deal with callbacks.

@@isodoubIetwhich callback syntax?

@@zollerboy1429 When you call a function that takes a callback as the last argument, the body of the callback goes outside the function call. Like if you were to pass a lambda to a function in C++ it would be as if you did it like this: std::ranges::sort(v, {}, [](std::string s)) { return s.size(); // sort according to length } Just all around baffling. Swift is a weird language like that. You see the list of features, nod along like "yes, yes, that is a good idea, yes, it seems nice"... and then you spot the exact moment where the designers popped an aneurysm.

I think... you may have your sentence backwards, or do you mean 5.x? Swift came out in 2014. Rust came out in 2015. Hard to be _inspired by_ something when you release before.

the first *stable* release of rust came out in 2015. also languages are constantly being developed so they probably inspired each other, regardless of who technically came out "first".

Swift came first, my man.

Not true

Both languages inspired each other. And both stole liberally from existing FP languages.

it was made by the god himself Chris Lattner

Can you shit on them for Objective C at least?

My point exactly (well maybe let's not get carried away with the 'god' tag). But man, isn't that man a genius?!@@corpseopera

@@pwinowski then legend?

The man’s reputation can float on the LLVM alone for the next 25 years but he keeps coming up with new great ideas. Pretty incredible mind.

That can change though if the popularity increases, and they manage to disassociate Swift from Apple. Much like C# isn't only for Windows specific operations, even though it's certainly the best option for Windows development

Apple made the right move here by open sourcing it, and it is indeed on us to adopt it I guess@@GOTHICforLIFE1

I think its cause it's a pain in the ass to use on Windows. I've watched a couple of times from Fireship where he says that he switches to a Mac machine when using Swift, whereas in other languages, he is mostly Windows to record.

@@oserodal2702 windows sucks for development anyway (except when you develop for windows)

@@GOTHICforLIFE1well it’s not the best option for windows development if you’re already a C++ dev. I can write both but always use C++ for new projects.

True 😂

How’s the swift LSP experience these days?

I don’t think there are people who actually like Xcode outside of the official testimonials. It’s so slow and takes forever to launch.

Could not agree more. Love swift. Xcode literally ruins my life

@@BigfootPrintingI’ve used the LSP in VSCode and it’s OK.

The C# effect

The generic system is the best I’ve ever seen and it isn’t even close. I’m consistently surprised at how seamlessly it works.

how does this work it sounds very interestingyou got any articles on that on how that works deep down?

@@kira.herself There is a UKposts video named "Implementing Swift Generics, " from an LLVM meeting.

There's a reason why types are monomorphized at compile time. It means you can get generics without paying the cost of virtual functions. This is a different tradeoff (usability for new types at the expense of performance), not "doing generics right".

especially since it's been deprecated since July 2021. I mean there are a few incompatibilities with the newer standard sure but at the end of the day not sure why you'd bother keeping an entire system around just because a few developers like to go out of their way to screw you over, seems weird IMO.

Vapor is competing with Go to be my favorite thing for the backend.

What about PHP?

And now you can just import the C++ library you want!

cumtime

If you like one you ought to like the other. Both communities are pretty friendly and helpful too but it can be harder to find Swift people when you need help with a problem.

@@andrewdunbar828 Yeah, I'm getting similar nice vibes from both :) I think I'm covered on the swift front luckily as the entire iOS team at work writes it, and they're all a friendly bunch

Oh no. What a discovery. You must think ahTML is a language. Fing batch or Basic is better language than JS or Java. Why the slash. As if the two were related 😂

Andrej is a genius.

Do you… think Java and JavaScript are somehow related or interchangeable?

You learn from your own base techniques.

@@Art-is-craft sure I do, but I want to know how other people do it to improve my way of learning by picking some methods that fit my current style.

@@Devenias There is SICP and HTDP that can provide base techniques that can be transferred to various languages. MIT course in Python also tries to do the same. My basis is the SICP approach to programming that I have transferred to various languages.

I’m doing the same thing with swift-html!

There's a lot of borrowing between the two. I find it funny that surface level, Swift syntax looks closest to something like Kotlin. But in terms of actual concepts and features, Swift and Rust are basically twins.

Some key people have worked on both.

@@andrewdunbar828Yep, as I said before in a comment, the creator of Rust, Graydon Hoare, joined the Swift team and contributed to the language short after it was launched

Conditional unwrapping is 🔥

Apple doesn't really use it that much in its own products.

@@thedeemon You mean they use C and C++ to get to the heart of the machine. Nothing wrong with that and Swift allows that integration as it was built on top of C.

@@thedeemon Are they picking C/C++/Objective-C for new projects? Can't expect them to rewrite existing software in Swift.

that sounds fun

gotta say, xcode's builtin documentation tool is insane. Similar to man pages but much more complex and powerful. even more powerful than markdown pages

based comment

Damn ... any advice to give to us younglings? And congrats on the retirement! (hope it's retirement and not the other possibility 💀)

Man. Another gets PIP’d. You hate to see it.

I’ve done this from js to dart and that also kinda works

kotlin is not that much outside of Android. Same for C# and Microsoft.

It's very hard to use Swift on windows

“Crossplatform” === ios, ipados, macos, watchos, tvos……

Yep. Windows and Linux have been supported since 2020.

Swift has had Linux Support for almost a decade. Windows support has always been an afterthought.

@@NamanGoel34bro Swift itself is not even a decade old lmao

Swift ships with an LSP. I’ve tried in VS Code and it works OK.

I was hoping that that is true, but after doing some more serious work - vim with sourcekit lsp is an inferior experience to xcode, regarding how language features work. That makes me really sad as nvim user that has to write few thousands line of code in Swift in next months.

There’s classes and class-based OOP, mainly for Objective C interop (e.g. so you can use existing libraries, without needing to rewrite the world like Go). But most idiomatic Swift uses protocols and structs, in a more Rust-like style

My brother in Christ have you never used a multi paradigm language like Rust, Kotlin, or Go? Same shit.

its a revolutionary language you should give a try

I’m genuinely curious to know what language you use that doesn’t support both?

It’s called Swift.😂

Yea I think Swift’s type system is much better than Rust’s - I found quite a few things missing in Rust, but Rust is catching up a bit which is nice to see.

Thanks, guys. I read some on Swift tonight. It does seem pretty interesting. I'm going to dive into it some more. Thanks for the recommendation! I am for sure now Swift-curious

@@NamanGoel34 Swift's syntax is weird/crazy though. Function parameters have an inside and an outside name, callback parameters spill past the function call, explicitly annotated exceptions everywhere, etc. I have my gripes with go but nothing in it is as crazy as swift's syntax.

@@isodoubIet 1. By default parameters have the same name inside and outside. And named parameters are an upgrade over position based upgrades. 2. The curly brackets *outside* the parenthesis is a little weird at first, but actually turns out to be super nice in the long run. Also, it’s optional so you can just not do it in your own code. 3. Explicitly annotated exceptions? There are no exceptions in Swift. Don’t quite get this one. Overall, fair that Swift’s syntax is a bit weirder than Go. But it’s simpler than Rust, which is full of cryptic symbols and shortened names. Swift is very readable after you learn its couple of idiosyncrasies.

Loving Idris, but tbreal Prime doesn’t like/care about Haskell, and Idris is even more academy-focused, so probably he won’t like it a lot.

@@clementdato6328 maybe, but the conceptual design brought by that is really interesting.

And another language inspired by Swift is Hylo programming language, formely Val programming language, wich have mutable value semantics and the types are integers.

Because everything works well only on the Apple platform

They don't seem really that serious about Swift on non-Apple platforms.

Mostly it’s because of the opposite of fanboyism. Since it’s mostly used in the Apple ecosystem, people who don’t like Apple for whatever legitimate or illegitimate reason they have will immediately sh*t-talk it the same way they do with Apple hardware without ever actually exposing themselves to it.

they never tried to brand it outside of anything apple related so the community doesnt really care about its widespread adoption outside of macos

@@andrewdunbar828They’ve been taking Swift on Linux pretty seriously and working to make it a good server language. Windows support has been an afterthought for the most part.

It’s open source and created by Lattner, creator of the LLVM. Not apple.

@@ConernicusRex Dawg Lattner worked at Apple, it was developed by Apple employees and announced at Apple’s WWDC. The initial released wasn’t even open source

@@ConernicusRexSwift initially was closed source and it’s backed by Apple

You can. It’s called associated type. Been around for a long time

Quite literally has never been impossible. Associated Type has been part of Swift’s protocol system since the beginning.

Kotlin is nice, but Swift is a lot nicer (Kotlin’s tooling is better)

For exactly what?

Yeah Apple did develop it and put a pile of money into it.

5% is a huge threashold, or we are not living in the same world.

He left his role, he wasn’t fired. Foundation in Swift is a thing, at least. The objc runtime on Apple platforms seems necessary considering it needs to interop with objc and the system libraries.

Chris is still on the Swift open source team

This is not correct. Objective-C++ is just Objective-C but with access to C++ language features because the clang compiler is in C++ mode as well as Objective-C mode. It doesn’t change anything about how Objective-C classes and message passing works, it just allows you to access C++ APIs and types from within Objective-C code, or store C++ class instances (etc) as instance variables in Objective-C classes (with the compiler emitting correct constructor/destructor calls in tandem with Objective-C object lifecycle calls. In industry, Objective-C++ (denoted by files that end in .mm instead of .m) is most often used to write Objective-C wrappers around a core of C++ code that is written to perform a task more efficiently than can be achieved using Objective-C alone due to its reliance on heap objects and dynamic dispatch for everything.

@@SimonFreePlusnailed it 🔥

Works on Linux just fine.

It’s been multi platform for years.

@@ConernicusRex If you intend to develop your app for multiple platforms, you'll need to create separate codebases. I rather use Flutter.