The Battle of Icons: Why Porsche is Suing Singer
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Місяць томуDive into the high-stakes legal clash between automotive giants Porsche and Singer in our latest video. Discover the controversy surrounding Porsche's lawsuit against Singer for alleged intellectual property infringement. Explore the intricate world of custom car modifications and the challenges posed by trademark rights and artistic expression. Join us as we unravel the complexities of this legal saga and its implications for the future of automotive design. Don't miss out on this gripping exploration of The Battle of Icons. Subscribe now for more automotive insights!
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Video clip inserts used in the video are from the following sources:
Gunther Works Clip • Guntherwerks 993: Pors...
Purrari Clip • deadmau5 driving his P...
Singer Safari Jump • SINGER ACS LAUNCH FULL...
Singer Safari Clip • Singer's ACS Is A Reim...
Singer Clip • Singer Factory Tour: H...
Singer Clip • FIRST DRIVE: Singer’s ...
Singer Clip • Porsche 911 Reimagined...
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#porschesinger #porschevssinger #outlawgarage
@brucemclaren- Місяць тому
that's the equivalent of writting a love letter and the girl reporting you for harrasment 😂
@Jay-jb2vr Місяць тому
That's not too farfetched these days
@sandyvalentin3072 Місяць тому
@@Jay-jb2vr Yep
@SonicProvocateur Місяць тому
This sounds very 2024. Girl: "Pay attention to meee! 🥺🥺😍" Guy: *writes love letter* Girl: "I'm calling the police and suing you."
@honestreviewer3283 Місяць тому
I love Singers, but have you ever received a love letter or romantic interest from someone you're not interested in and won't take the hint?
@Emppu_T. Місяць тому
It's not out of the picture
@russcooke5671 Місяць тому
Singer are not diluting the brand they are promoting it. Porsche should be doing the same thing with the original cars.
@romanizaboss6641 Місяць тому
I concur! Another division but still Porsche. They never listen to their customers/ audience. Remember PDK VS 6 Speed Manual.
@craigyirush3492 Місяць тому
Why would Porsche ruin their classic cars by restomoding them and destroying the marque’s history? And they did listen and put the manual back in the GT3.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Porsche have listened, somewhat. Adding the manual option back, which did upset a lot of 911 R owners. Singer are not Porsche though and I think the Singer impact on corporate Porsche may be overrated. I think it comes down to the badging and the naming, that’s where the fight is I believe
@OrlandoMGarcia Місяць тому
Its diluting because porsche cannot sell anymore analog cars in that volume. So it has to sell a new ideology that is not the same as the traditional porsche of even 20 years ago.
@stuartd9741 Місяць тому
Here's the thing. When these cars were built and sold by Porsche they used the best technology & R&D that Porsche was prepared to spend on any given model. So a 70s Porsche would have 70s technology and so on. If people want to modify from that base fair enough. .. Porsche would have made a driver's car that would appeal to the widest customer base as possible with the existing technology of that time be it 70,80,90,00s. There will always be room for improvement. .. Yet this costs money & i guess Porsche would prefer to make a profit on each car sold. So in other words. The amount of R&D that goes into a Singer would be far too expensive for mass production by Porsche..unless you want $1M price tag. .. It is alleged that every Buggati Veyron sold VW lost money on due to the complexity of the car.
@wwatts Місяць тому
This is just legal CYA from Porsche. If you don't defend IP you lose the right to it. My suspicion is that Porsche is happy to have Singer do their thing, but needs a case and settlement on file in order to protect its IP from other parties.
@MisterMonsieur Місяць тому
That's overly optimistic, and a lawsuit isn't the appropriate approach for that. If that was Porsche's intent, they could have sold a license to Singer for $1. This way, they can defend their IP in the future by arguing that Singer asked and paid for permission. Porsche is just jealous of the mountain of money Singer makes "off their back" year over year.
@wwatts Місяць тому
@@MisterMonsieur yeah you may be right, just seems odd to take issue with them after 15 years, though maybe the ACS was a step too far.
@MisterMonsieur Місяць тому
@@wwatts I think the ACS was a step too far; which is to say that they did "too good" a job. It's so good, it's hard to believe it's not OEM.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Great thoughts, the ACS seems to be the tipping point for Porsche
@etiennebaree6176 Місяць тому
@@MisterMonsieur :-):-)
@stevep9041 Місяць тому
If Porsche are worried about brand dilution look no further than them becoming EVs. They should take the EU to court.
@opmike343 Місяць тому
Yep. When it comes to EV's there no character to distinguish one from another. Part of the appeal of Porsche is the powertrain and the magic they work on them and the gearboxes. When everything is a fast, well handling EV built on a low center of gravity sled of batteries, why the hell would I spend a premium to the get the Porsche version? It would be like buying a Porsche vacuum cleaner...like why? I don't think manufacturers are properly factoring this in. If we're going to build and market them like appliances the people are going to start buying them like they do appliances. Something cheap, fancy looking, and has a good warranty.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
No soul and often the cars become very plasticy, if that’s even word 🤣 Hopefully Porsche have success with their new fuel 👍
@samivatanen8706 Місяць тому
It is THEIR brand. They can dilute their own property as much as they want.
@stevensofroniou Місяць тому
How comes Singer take the rap from Porsche when Bimoto and Electrogenic make Porsche 911 electric cars or is it the fact that these are conversions . Bimoto make the most amazing cars especially the 935 race car replica electric . However .😊
@stevensofroniou Місяць тому
Also what about RUF , Guntherworks , Brabus etc ?
@GM-fh5jp Місяць тому
The Macan has done more damage to the Porsche brand than Singer ever has...
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Did you see the Panamera. I had the V8 with the optional bore scoring 🤦♂️
@gockelxxxxxl9584 Місяць тому
I would say the Cayenne because without the Cayenne there wouldn’t be a Macan or Panamera. Also the Macan and Panamera are still produced in Germany while the Cayenne is made in Slovakia
@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus Місяць тому
@@gockelxxxxxl9584 The SUVs saved the company but have done huge damage to the brand. IMO.
@GM-fh5jp Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage My condolences :/ Porsche shoud have sat back smiling easily and said "Yes, Singer 911's are awesome...we know". Singer makes Porsche's better name better, not worse.
@gockelxxxxxl9584 Місяць тому
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus yes, you’re right. On one hand they saved Porsche as it is but on the other they aren’t what many see as Porsche (including myself). What I like most about Porsche 4 door cars is that they finance the development of small series cars like the Carrera GT or 918
@markholdenried5616 Місяць тому
Ruf has been modifying and improving Porsches for 4 decades. The only difference between Singer and Ruf is Ruf registered themselves as an auto manufacturer in Germany at their outset. They get bodies in white and engines from Porsche and go crazy from there. This might give Ruf the unassailable position of being a manufacturer while singer is legally an infringer. They both do the same thing but have different legal status.
@pervertt Місяць тому
A bit different I think. Ruf sells you a Ruf. Singer requires you to BYO 964 which they then turn inside out.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Thats a really good point @pervertt You are not buying a Singer, you are buying a Porsche 911/964 Singer which I think is the challenge
@ChrisSaddlerSam Місяць тому
@@pervertt I don't think that's 100% correct. I remember during his early interviews, Rob was saying that one could bring his 964 for the "reimagining"... but they were also searching&buying 964s for themselves, too!!!
@randallbezuidenhout1505 Місяць тому
In the beginning RUF got Porsche bodies in white ,that is no longer the case Ruf builds its own bodies and uses Porsche supplied engine casings and all the engines are now built in-house by RUF.
@pervertt Місяць тому
@@ChrisSaddlerSam I stand corrected if that is the case. Whatever Singer does, I understand there is not much of the original car that is kept in the final product.
@renndub Місяць тому
Dilution of the brand?! Porsche already did that when they started building suvs
@Freimopp777 Місяць тому
SUVs pay the bills
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
SUVs have definitely helped the sustainability of the brand, exactly why even Ferrari are doing it, even though it’s a significantly different price bracket
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Unfortunately 911’s do pay the bills on their own
@jjefferyworboys8138 Місяць тому
That's just your opinion, sales figures would indicate otherwise.
@princesssolace4337 Місяць тому
100% exactly and the chauffer driven supercar originally meant for Communist market or else no entry for VW group
@honestreviewer3283 Місяць тому
Like RUF, Singer just needs to take the Porsche logos off their car and call them Singers, with a Singer badge. Solved.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Correct, I think that would solve the problem
@honestreviewer3283 Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage Haha! Perhaps I need to collect a fee from Singer? Maybe a car? 😄
@atomicsmith Місяць тому
Somehow I think this might anger Porsche more!!
@dasboot9471 27 днів тому
Except it’s still a registered Porsche automobile, there in lies the problem…RUF puts their own VIN and registration on them….Singer can’t do that with classic models
@achristian7015 25 днів тому
Not really. Remember when you could buy a Rolls Royce hood for a VW Beetle. That came to an end quickly.
@gotaytaygo1 Місяць тому
Just something else to consider: Porsche has a massive division called Porsche Classic. Singer is literally buying up every 964 coupe possible (c2’s and c4’s, alike), simultaneously driving up the prices of 964’s before theyre “singer-fied.” Porsche’s probably not happy about that, bc once they get “singer-fied,” mechanically, Porsche Classic loses any future business with owners of these older machines. Personally, Singer isn’t my “thing” at all-and I’m the biggest Porsche fan that I know. But just my two cents, here.
@andrewhurstcars Місяць тому
RUF aren’t allowed to stick Porsche badges and names on their cars. Porsche are entitled to defend their brand. They already got the brand removed from the All-terrain competition study.
@colnagog6026 Місяць тому
RUF and Singer do different things. RUF is registered as a manufacturer, and sell whole cars, with different model names, outside of Porsche nomenclature. Singer does not.
@l.j.r.8448 19 днів тому
@@colnagog6026that’s why Singer is going to court.
@razs.4548 Місяць тому
They should distance themself more clearly as a modifier company. They do surf A LOT on the Porsche brand and name
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I agree, their safari was branded with Porsche all over it, when it clearly wasn’t
@darylmorse Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage Unless it no longer has a Porsche VIN, it's still a Porsche.
@Jallu555 Місяць тому
Exactly, their cars are much better built than the Porsche ones, so they dederve their own name
@razs.4548 29 днів тому
@@Jallu555 ofcourse they are ? They cost 10x of a porsche? It better be better build than anything?
@ian_ford Місяць тому
Porsche is mad they didn't think of developing a program like this before Singer did. They didn't think, 13 years ago, there was a market for bespoke, retro-designed 911's starting at £350k (now £750k). Boy, were they wrong.
@stuartd9741 Місяць тому
Too expensive for mass production.. from Porsches point of view..
@everydaydose7779 Місяць тому
they make one car and sell it for a like 30 trims and different specs 😂 found a real life cheatcode selling their cars starting at 200k
@anydaynow01 Місяць тому
Yep, it's ruining their trying to turn folks to their EVs. Singer forces folks to remember that an expensive street Porsche is supposed to be about driving emotion not ultimate lap times.
@ThePaperRobotChannel Місяць тому
@@anydaynow01 Singer cars are significantly more expensive than any car Porsche sells today and are a drop in the sea compared to the numbers they're dealing with. Singer is a boutique coach builder for few rich individuals who want a new car that is definitely a Porsche, but not the kind Porsche could produce today because of regulations. The two markets are completely apart from each other.
@fxlltxtsearch Місяць тому
1000 wealthy buyers isnt going to make up much of a market
@Fpvpilot928 Місяць тому
Probably to do more with removing Porsche badges and replacing them with Singer badges. Same situation with the Purrari.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
💯
@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus Місяць тому
What's next? Forcing me to pull the badges off the cars I restore at home?
@carlosoruna7174 20 днів тому
Even if they remove the badges Porche will still complain and want to do it themselves inhouse..
@zbeasty Місяць тому
Isn't there a limit to how long IP exists? Even the latest 964s are now 30 years old. Porsche no longer produce it so how can they claim dilution of the brand? It would be arguable that the vehicles that Singer produces are more on brand than the SUVs and EVs that Porsche is now producing.
@retributionangel5078 Місяць тому
Its about the Logos Emblems and Name. Singer is useing Trade Marked Names and Logos on their Cars and Advertising Ultimatly its about Money. People that buy a Singer are not buying a new or 2nd hand Porsch from the Porsch Dealer Porsche spend Millions and decades building up the Brand. Singer is free looting on the Porsch Brand Name
@YoungFrankMatthews Місяць тому
I believe this came about because of the singer safari in comparison to the Porsche Dakar simply because Singer did it better and that is a threat to Porsche sales of special edition and heritage edition cars which are insanely profitable for Porsche and if people of means start to believe if you want a SE or a HE Porsche it’s better to go to Singer due to their insane attention to detail and building the car around its owner at that super high price point
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Yes the Safari definitely accelerated the breakdown in the relationship
@YoungFrankMatthews Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage without a doubt it did because the Dakar is a slightly modified factory Turbo S and the Safari is a purpose built rally super car that can be built to your exact specifications and both carry pretty heavy price tags and are limited and if you are of substantial means and these are your top choices for a purpose built rally inspired 911 most would pick the safari if they are not gonna just get both because they can and if you apply that same scenario to all of Porsche special edition cars and you “Singerize” them like a 930se, 933turbo and turbo s ,3.0 RS ,993 gt2 ,959 these cars but done the Singer way can you imagine the dent it will put in Porsche SE program
@QUARTZdls Місяць тому
So... years ago, PORSCHE took legal action against SINGER saying that the company could not create a product that would confuse the market into believing it was a SINGER product, and not a "PORSCHE 911". SINGER and PORSCHE arrived at an agreement whereby any marketing of the SINGER product must be described as a "PORSCHE 911 reimagined by SINGER Vehicle Design". At the same time, the SINGER badging on the car was reduced in size/prominence. So... for PORSCHE to now raise a legal case saying SINGER can't have prominent PORSCHE badging on the finished product makes no sense. I think the commentator here is just playing guesswork, and that we need to wait for real details.
@deansiracusa3966 Місяць тому
Porsche has actually trademarked the profile of the 911. It’s even acted as a logo on their letterhead. Trademark owners must protect their intellectual property, otherwise they risk losing it. They could issue a trademark license, for a fee, which is what may actually happen.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
💯 right, that could be an option
@SY-tn2io Місяць тому
So how about Gunther Werks? The next one to be sued?
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Maybe, that’s definitely an interesting situation that might need more investigation 👍
@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo Місяць тому
They should sue RWB..... That stuff is ghetto Hypebeast crap...... So ugly .........
@Rob-vv5yn Місяць тому
Gunther werks does work closely with Porsche but might have the issue with there carbon 911s
@alphaenterprise2232 Місяць тому
Gunther Werks is like RUF they have approval from porsche.
@regulus6936 Місяць тому
@@alphaenterprise2232 Ruf is an manufacturer, does it really need Porsche approval?
@Aearonjer Місяць тому
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Yep, it’s been years, perhaps with the ever increasing Porsche Heritage department they’ve decided to make a stand
@jonwarshawsky5288 Місяць тому
Same here.
@stuartd9741 Місяць тому
Agree.
@Nemex12 Місяць тому
me too. I think they were even selling them engines so it gives the impression that they worked close together or at least sanctioned the business somehow. Guess they want to make it clear it was not the case
@406gto Місяць тому
Greed. Love Porsche, but hopefully they (Porsche) lose.
@stevesloan6775 Місяць тому
You got to sort out the echo/reverberation in your audio. You’ve got to get a few of those foam deadening tiles. You only need to cover one third of the hard wall faces for it to work.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I thought the mic positioning might of helped. Might try a new filter 👍👍
@zalllon Місяць тому
Just get out of recording this video in the bathroom 😂 Obviously a small room with hard walls / floor / ceiling.
@analogdriven Місяць тому
Or just invest in a quality directional mic
@jms1367 Місяць тому
Filing a motion under seal has nothing to do with how the case will resolve. I didn't get much of a glimpse of that filing but typically you ask the court to seal the filing if sensitive information is included in support of the requested relief. It could be sensitive or confidential business information, trade secrets or other matters you don't want public but which you feel supports the relief you want from the court.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Good point 👍
@kuri911 Місяць тому
Not only did the 911 swell up in size after Volkswagen (VAG) took ownership, looks like Porsche's law department grew a bit large as well.
@addywachol3292 Місяць тому
all cars swell up... sadly
@Anigaming-dz5gh Місяць тому
"Is it a Porsche? Is it a Singer? Is it both?" In my eyes, it's still a Porsche. Singer just added a bit of the modern charm whilst still keeping it Porsche, thus the name of Porsche 911 *reimagined by Singer* It's not a Singer like how RUF back then did their Porsche mods, RUF was initially a Porsche modder company like Mercedes' AMG. But unlike RUF which sometimes made the car look different (CTR-3), Singer just did minor visual touches. So like you said, it's still a Porsche at heart with just a few details sprinkled on.
@alainbelisle643 Місяць тому
One big factor that is not mentioned is liability. The VW Group was found guilty of criminal acts (official) regarding VW, Audi and Porsche products for emissions fraud. It cost the brand many $$ Billions, and brand damage. So now allowing Singer to modify the cars, tampering with the engines (therefore a clear violation of emissions laws) and maybe also structural modifications (high liability in case of accidents), airbags, brakes. And then also the brand intellectual property rights. I cannot understand why it took so long for Porsche to sue Singer. Car modifications are just not legally possible anymore.
@user-ss9pz6iy9l Місяць тому
I'm guessing some ego's at Porsche are hurt because Singer builds some damn beautiful cars.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I definitely think some egos have been hurt both sides on this
@tioraytm Місяць тому
HUH? The argument should be I paid for it and can do whatever I want to customize a car. Plus these are very old cars. These are restomods.
@Killa-Kawalski Місяць тому
Great vid...What brand and model are your glasses? . Please let me know Very cool. Cheers
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Thanks 😃👍 They are actually Burberry sunglasses that have been converted to prescription glasses Thanks
@Killa-Kawalski Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage Sweet. Appreciate your reply..They a current model? They look around a 62mm lense which is the maximum for my script. Cheers
@kyewalker4137 Місяць тому
Simple solution Singers leave their factory without Porsche emblems. Buyers add them retrospectively.
@DrBreezeAir Місяць тому
The level of quality and the price are so different from Porsche I call them Singers because they're nothing alike.
@randallbezuidenhout1505 Місяць тому
I personally think that Rob as a musician should no you can't take someone else's composition ,change the title, tweet the notes and get away without copyright laws.The Porsche DNA in there by design/birth it will always be a Porsche and nothing else.
@DrBreezeAir Місяць тому
@@randallbezuidenhout1505 I can see your point, but he puts in way more work then Porsche did on any of their cars.
@RennenUSA Місяць тому
I don’t think they understand just how many new and classic vehicles they sell just due to the workmanship Singer puts out making people who can’t afford a Singer go buy a factory car to be part of the family of enthusiast owners.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Maybe but they are the original and I suspect the impact Singer has on Porsche sales is very minimal, especially when most sales are now SUVs or a Taycan
@regulus6936 Місяць тому
@RennenUSA I disagree. Singer is tackling an extremely small niche in a specific market. You don't buy a (classic or modern) factory 911, because you cannot afford one of their cars. Porsche created a following over time, with their racing success and icon status off track, owning nothing of that to Singer.
@jamesslaughter4117 28 днів тому
@Porscheoscar. That’s my point. Ruf cars have no Porsche decals because they buy blank chassis from Porsche, with no VIN. Ruf is considered a manufacturer, so it gets its own VIN during the certification process. Since Singer is producing the DLS bodies themselves, the car body has no Porsche logos to begin with. Singer builds the DLS essentially from scratch, with a bespoke body, on a customer supplied chassis. The issue is that the body is styled to closely resemble an early 911. Even the carbon fiber dashboard is designed to resemble the period 911 dashboard. Singer is mimicking the original design, and then installing Porsche crests and logos after the fact, which implies that it is a Porsche product. They even use Porsche style font on the labels on the fuel and oil caps. Since the car still has a 964 chassis, the DOT will let it retain the original VIN, but from Porsche’s standpoint, it’s not their product anymore. The DLS is essentially a really expensive and convincing replica, badged as an official Porsche. I’m sure paying Porsche for licensing would settle things, but Singer didn’t do that. Nor do they have the Supplier and Customer relationship Ruf has in sourcing the chassis from Porsche.
@OutlawGarage 25 днів тому
Well said. It feels like Singer want to be Porsche sometimes and then sometime not.
@mobilespeed Місяць тому
They should learn a thing of two from MS Tools on reimagining Ford Escorts. MST even neither using the word 'Ford' or 'Escort' for their Mk1 and Mk2 cars that they produced.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Yep, I think they either need to say Porsche 911 restored by Singer or just not mention Porsche at all
@haekaldimas8023 Місяць тому
kinda funny that singer sponsors the porsche jota team in wec hypercar
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I does seem like they are trying to maintain a relationship whilst setting so rules, unfortunately using the courts
@ScottOmatic Місяць тому
It's fairly obvious Porsche would rather have you buy one of their new cars than to get a classic through Singer and not receive any profit. Porsche also knows they have an inferior product. There's nothing an auto manufacturer can do to compete with this, with today's government mandates
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Government mandates can be crippling. Manufacturers can’t really complete with bespoke companies with their massive overheads
@f1ibraaa5 Місяць тому
Hey man great videos! Just a small suggestion… a good mic should make the audio quality better and should increase the value/quality of ur videos even more. Keep it up 🔥
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Thanks I think I need to use some sound deadening in the room and I also need to do some audio processing to clean up the sound a little bit. Thanks for the feedback though as it’s definitely something I want to work on. Need to do some investigating 👍👍
@teddysautomotive Місяць тому
Wow, that's crazy this video popped up for me today. I actually just got into the deep world of Trademark Law research. People don't realize how important this stuff is. I didn't. I learned that brands are actually responsible for protecting their trademarks because it could cause them to lose important cases in the future which is why many major companies are seen suing for seemingly frivolous use of their brands. Side note, for other youtubers out there. O, Fortuna is not public domain even though it sounds like a very old song. Haha. Used it on my last video and UKposts identified it. Crazy!
@daniel635biturbo Місяць тому
Jaguar Land Rover have lost several cases similar to this, it will be interesting to follow this case. My guess is that Singer cars will not have Porsche badges in the future.
@rabbithole8858 Місяць тому
You buy a car, it's yours. Not the company's. You can do what you wish with your property. Guess Germany and Italy can't let go of how they used to be with the whole controlling whatever they can.
@J.B.7.4 Місяць тому
Amen
@Bosic012 Місяць тому
yes, but actually no
@petrolheads6328 6 днів тому
touche
@petermcilroy3224 Місяць тому
Surely owners are free to do whatever they want to their cars
@simz7380 Місяць тому
Sue the high-profile, most respected company to send a message. Settle for $1 with an NDA. Objective achieved.
@kens8903 Місяць тому
I don’t get how it’s considered diluting the brand if they’re not creating new vehicles. They are just (highly)modifying existing older vehicles
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Legally it dilutes Porsches ability to defend anything similar in the future. For example Red Bull fight everything, therefore no one can complain that someone else got away with it, so why can’t they. Everyone is treated the same. I also think there may be a few other things going on behind the scenes…
@retributionangel5078 Місяць тому
Its not about the Cars Its about the Logos and Name on the Cars and in the Singer Advertisment
@jyy9624 Місяць тому
I heard all the guys at Porsche who were adamant that an SUV 😂 would dilute the brand have all been sidelined
@drdoolittle5724 Місяць тому
but please remember the damned suv's kept Porsche afloat, however much we despise the things!
@TheNatural-hbs Місяць тому
@@drdoolittle5724 I cannot stand those Porsche SUVs, ugly as fuck.
@simonhall2682 Місяць тому
At this stage Singer can remove the Porsche logo and no one will care, their brand is now so strong.
@achristian7015 25 днів тому
I guess the only issue I have is Singer calling it their car instead of a Porsche. That would be no different than someone producing a 911 that was identical and putting their name on it.
@OutlawGarage 8 днів тому
I agree ☝️
@ronaldsimms-nh7dx Місяць тому
Porsche needs to bring Singer in-house, similar to MB does with Maybach, AMG, or even Brabus. They look childish fighting over the same girl!
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
That’s an interesting way of putting it 🤣
@Desert_Spec Місяць тому
That's how AMG was ruined. Singer, like AMG used to be, are free to experiment and build their own vision which is what makes/made them great. Singer has enough funding.
@ronaldsimms-nh7dx Місяць тому
@@Desert_Spec And Maybach or Brabus?.. Guess you have a crystal ball & a global auto brand as well. AMG is still a company. Benz could sue them to the ground as well. What was your point?
@stuartd9741 Місяць тому
Singer just needs to stand on its own as an independent customer car producer. Remove all Porsche livery. And advertise as a Singer foremost, so as to distinguish itself from the core base manufacturer they are made from. .. As most people can tell what the base car is everyone in the car community knows the quality of a Singer... it doesn't need to hang on Porsches coat tails so to speak.
@ronaldsimms-nh7dx Місяць тому
@@stuartd9741 Both company's obviously have passion for the same thing. No need to fight over it. Enhance it ALL. Germans are a tough crowd to sell ideas to sometimes.. Imagine if Singer had full access to Porsche. The base cars would rise in quality soon after. Singer could produce more cars. Overall prices would be higher per unit, so VW still wins..
@roadbeef Місяць тому
Porsche went thru this in the 70s and 80s with Ruf, TechArt, Gemballa. Ruf aren't the only ones who can issue their own VIN, so too can the other aforementioned tuners. Porsche have been OK with their existence ever since because culpability and liability is now fully out of their hands. Which is what they want with Singer et al. At least, that's my interpretation.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I completely agree 👍
@umoramayori Місяць тому
These singer modified porsches, are registered with the state and federal govts as porsches. They are legally porsches, so having the OEM badges, and OEM brand name on the vehicles are correct, and would help LE identify the vehicles. The singer clients who own the cars, own the badges. They can do what they want with their property. I can paint ferrari on the side of my expedition, and ferrari have no say over that.
@concreteboy7851 Місяць тому
I saw 964’s get away from my price range due to Singer. Singer has helped to solidify Porsche 911’s an an investment. New and old. They should be thanking Singer for increasing interest in the brand.
@barfmeister8509 Місяць тому
So, Singers will leave Singer HQ without Porsche branding but the owner can then apply that same branding once delivered? Is that where we’re at or will Porsche then chase the owner🤷🏻♂️
@flacjacket Місяць тому
Interesting. Hopefully Porsche is just doing it to preempt future lawsuits, hopefully they are making a small ask that wont injure Singers viability. Singer builds the most desireable cars in the world right now IMO, alongside Kimera, Alfaholics, Eagle, Guntherwerks and a number of other small restomod shops who have recently stepped up to build some truly brilliant homages to some of the most beautiful cars of all time.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I hope so as well. It could be really simple, hopefully resolved quickly 🤞
@eien86 Місяць тому
cool video, though you should consider buying a proper microphone. There's just too much echo/reverb in your audio
@andyballard1883 Місяць тому
I would come down on the side of Porsche here, When Singer were producing a handful of cars their argument held water but they are now effectively operating as a small car manufacturer and as such their cars may start to reduce sales of the very top end Porsche produced 911 variants.
@dp2901 Місяць тому
This is pettier than the 901 lawsuit by Peugeot.
@Desert_Spec Місяць тому
Porsche is the definition of petty. Look at how they reacted when the GT-R Nismo set the 2015 Nurburgring lap time, they cried and labelled them as cheaters (getting the lap time disqualified) because the performance package installed on the GT-R was not available at the showroom and rather as a Nismo works package. However, the Manthey Racing packaged Porsches are allowed when its exactly the same thing. Petty hypocrites.
@simonschneider5913 Місяць тому
porsche is lost just as the rest of german industry. too much empty but loudmouthed heads over there. and hubris, ooodles of hubris, for decades...
@iankuah8606 Місяць тому
There was no lawsuit. The Peugeot brothers just went on the Porsche stand at the 1963 Paris Motor Show and had a friendly discussion with Porsche bosses to inform them that that had copyrighted all three number designations with '0' in the middle. After the 356, Porsche's approach was very straightforward because 901 was their new cars project number, and the last thing on their minds would have been the infringement of another car company’s patented naming system. Up to that point Porsche had only used '0' in the middle of their race cars like 904, 906, 908, which was not a problem as these were not road cars. Porsche built a run of pre-series cars before customer cars began to roll off the assembly line on 14th September 1964. By 16th November the factory had made 82 pre-series cars with ‘901’ stamped on their chassis plates. It was no big deal for Porsche to change the '0' in their system to '1', and the rest, as they say is history. The other 150 pre-production cars had 911 on their chassis plates.
@ghoulbuster1 Місяць тому
@@simonschneider5913these companies aren't german. They are "international"
@simonschneider5913 Місяць тому
@@ghoulbuster1 family porsche and piech are part of our oligarchy...they are huge! and they control lots of people in germany. i wonder how their loyalties lie nowadays... they have a checkered past to say the least...
@MIKEZG Місяць тому
singer is easily the nicest sounding classic 911 ever. porsche is just jealous, they were the same with RUF
@digilux4017 Місяць тому
Your logic is tremendous😂
@colnagog6026 Місяць тому
Porsche mad because Singer is out Sonderweunching (
@StealthFX9 Місяць тому
@@colnagog6026Stop raping my native language!
@Alby911 Місяць тому
It really has nothing to do with jealousy or how SInger's sound and look. Porsche don't want Singer do be making profit from Porsche's design. Hopefully an agreement is made that allows Singer to continue, even if there are certain restrictions. But I fear for the worse
@sherparoyale Місяць тому
Why doesn’t Porsche just acquire Singer; or put them out of business and build it in house themselves since there’s clearly a market for $300K+ retromods 🤷♂️
@DanMosqueda 26 днів тому
3:30 Being sealed doesn’t necessarily indicate an out of court settlement. When dealing with IP, it is reasonable from both sides to not want their trade secrets to be made available to other competitors.
@OutlawGarage 25 днів тому
Good point 👍
@dhmallet Місяць тому
Guntherworks, Tuthill, 501 Motors, and more I can't remember, should look at, since they do a similar thing to 911s.
@colnagog6026 Місяць тому
This case should have been thrown out. It would be different if Singer was buying cars, modding them, and then selling them off of the lot. If Porsche won/wins this case, then it would be an issue for "every modding shop, everywhere" to put any of their respective logos anywhere on the car, for "any mod" that was performed. How are companies like Brabus and MTM not catcing any fire?
@russcooke5671 Місяць тому
I was just going to mention brabus.
@pete1631 Місяць тому
Nowhere on a Brabus does the name Mercedes appear. They don’t bill their cars as Mercs.
@YoungShul Місяць тому
I believe companies like brabus and alpina work directly with mercedes and bmw
@user-nq7yw8fu4b Місяць тому
Brabus was the first company that came to mind but they go out of their way to brand their vehicles as Brabus rather than a throwback Mercedes. Being a German company probably also helps. Porsche is likely a bit stung by Singer having become the final statement of early 911 purity.
@LotoroE Місяць тому
Alpina is now owned by BMW as a subsidiary brand. Don't know about Brabus though. There's now some kind of official tie-in with Porsche and Manthey Racing.
@marineforces3214 Місяць тому
thank u for your opinion , I am afraid they who represent are just after the money + that to me is a bad sign ❤️
@JPspinFPV Місяць тому
How is this any different from RUF, Gemballa, Guntherworks?
@moore_rb Місяць тому
I’m going to guess that the entire case is centered on the fact that singer puts their badge on their finished cars, and that’s what has Porsche butt hurt. Singer does a great job of acknowledging, and overstating the fact that these cars were Porsches, are Porsches, and will always be Porsches. However: the Singer name has become synonymous with a level of design, and quality that the cars are more readily associated with. And that’s what has raised Porsche‘s hackles. People are paying more for the Singer name on these cars than they are paying for the Porsche name on these cars…
@randallbezuidenhout1505 Місяць тому
Perfect sensible comment, its the Singer Brand that's the issue.Gas Monkeys restores/modifies a Plymouth Cuda and its street credibilty is what you and i see as a beautiful Mopar and not a rebadged Gas Monkey Cuda, that's left to its owner at Cars and Coffee discussion.Singer is promoting and advertising the Singer Brand over and above the Porsche origin VIN, engine and chassis number its is by visual a Porsche irrespective of the resto/mods done to it.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Great comments 👍
@waynepereira1726 Місяць тому
This is a warning shot from Porsche to all builders that modify their product. It will set a precedent that we are watching you..
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Definitely puts a peg in the ground
@jjefferyworboys8138 Місяць тому
This certainly is nothing new in the motor industry.
@cylentone Місяць тому
Icons plural? Porsche vs Singer? Please. That aside, Porsche started this in 2022 against many other "tuners". From a German website: "Basically, the Porsche lawyers (Unit4IP) are warning against any commercial conversions or offers based on the 3D trademarks of the 964 Turbo registered in 2017 and also those of the 993 and 996."
@gregaraiza1875 Місяць тому
Love the t-shirt selection for this video 🫡
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
First one to spot that 🤣 I just couldn’t resist 🤣
@danielhussey3631 Місяць тому
The issue I have is for every new Singer delivered, a 964 chassis is destroyed. I was hoping they would go the way of RUF and just start making their own shells, but then Porsche would really have a case against them for infringing on intellectual property. Which is a conundrum.
@kilotiger7780 Місяць тому
Destroyed is a strong word, especially for this case. It's still a 964, just enhanced. Not a different car, not an EV like what some other companies are turning them into. And no, if you purchase something, you can do whatever you want with it. Because it's your property
@MisterMonsieur Місяць тому
Seeing how Porsche keeps pressing their prices higher and higher, year over year, one can only imagine how jealous they must be to see the bounties Singer are hauling in for their restorations. Now, mind you, there's nothing stopping Porsche from offering the same services in-house, or even buying Singer out-right. But, no, let's just go to court and look like bullies. Yes, that's the best course of action. Of course!
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I am surprised Porsche don’t offer this option, however, the corporate overheads with Porsche would be massive and could they do it as well as Singer? It’s hard enough getting a GT3 from Porsche, imagine trying to get the equivalent of a Singer 🤦♂️
@lewisweakland Місяць тому
As a long-time Porsche owner (5 cars over 30 years) and Singer enthusiast from a distance, I’ve got to say that the legal action taken by Porsche in this case looks incredibly petty and stupid…
@napalmholocaust9093 26 днів тому
If they think they can win, they'll go forward with the suit. That's the kind of precedent they'd want to shutdown the entire aftermarket and force all parts through a dealership. Not just them, all manufacturers, some would probably pay for their lawyers or already have.
@OutlawGarage 25 днів тому
I am hearing some strange news about this so I might have to do a follow up video
@flux928 Місяць тому
Trademarks can lose their protections if you as the owner don't enforce them. With Porsche restomods popping up all over the place, they had to make a stand.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I think you’re 💯 right 👍
@flux928 Місяць тому
@@OutlawGarage RUF is prolly the blueprint these guys will have to follow to stay legal.
@regulus6936 Місяць тому
@flux928 That's not how it works, if you have no reason to enforce your trademark because nobody is violating anything, it won't lose protection.
@flux928 Місяць тому
@@regulus6936 Wrong. I work in UPS corp. Our shield, the color Pullman Brown, and our package cars are all trademarked. Any business that use any of those things without UPS permission will get a cease and desist letter from our lawyers. We even destroy our old package cars to keep them from being repainted and used for other businesses as we would lose the trademark to the design. The 911 is an iconic design in the same manner.
@Questron7 Місяць тому
The difference between Ferrari and Porsche is, that Porsche has developed a brand and logo that is not just limited to the name and herald logo. It is also the shape of the most recognized model in their lineup that has become their identity. They build that iconic 911 shape with that recognizable DNA for over 60 years without interruption so it became part of their brand identity. Few brand were able to pull this off. With this added trademark design ad shape, it is not up to Singer or any other factory, to take this design and to make it theirs, either by slapping body panels on it or removing them. It is is still a car recognized as a Porsche. No matter that they sell them for 500.000 US. It is still their brand. If Porsche decides in the future to compete in the 500K price range they would find others already benefiting and cannibalizing their brand name. It is time for Singer to come up with their own design and build up their own iconic brand heritage...they will soon find out how difficult it is when you cannot ride the waves that other created. Porsche has a valid point
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I agree, short term and long term I think Porsche are making a sensible stand, I just hope it doesn't go too far...
@marineforces3214 Місяць тому
that is true many of them customizer think they build the car or at least they present em like that ❤️
@iankuah8606 Місяць тому
OK, here's the thing. Singer cars have very distinctive modifications that no factory 911 ever left the factory with. They look quite unique down to the shape of their wheelarches and spoilers. I once had a discussion with BBS about copyright on their famous cross-spoke wheels and they explained that while they could legally go after blatant copy wheels i.e. replicas being passed off as originals, the moment the shape of the spokes was changed slightly and sold under another name, they were no longer copies. The same goes for 'tribute' watches that might look like a Rolex or Patek Philippe but have an own brand on them and other small deviations. So long as no attempt is made to pass them off as the original item there is no case to answer. In fact there was an agreement ebtween Porsche and Singer dating back to the start of their business that Singer should state they have no relationship with Porsche or any of its trademarked products. My question is why now after nearly 15 years? I suspect this is coming from some hot-shot lawyer in PCNA rather than Zuffenhausen.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
The issue really gain traction with the singer safari having Porsche written all over it, I think that started the friction, along with some other behind the scenes issues I think
@graemelliott3942 Місяць тому
I would say that it is a clash of of one Titan and an athletic adolescent. Without Porsche there would be no Singer. What Singer does is really cool. Maybe VAG-Porsche should buy them and make them their custom arm of their brand since there is a market for the over priced expensive toys.
@zeus.edwards2662 Місяць тому
So what about Gunther Werks and RWB / RAUH-Welt BEGRIFF? Thanks to singer it made me start to appreciate th ebrand and how they can change little things that have a big impact as time changes... i was never a fan of porche but singer opened my eyes on the Porsche brand.
@mobilespeed Місяць тому
5:39 - He did mention about RWB though...
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
RWB is just a body kit. Interesting here in Melbourne the dealers are very happy to service and maintain RWB cars and the Porsche Club here welcomes them with open arms. Guntherwerks is interesting and I’ll investigate that further 👍
@garydilbeck340 Місяць тому
What of RUF?
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Slightly different I think with them originally buying chassis from Porsche and having their own vin number
@jjefferyworboys8138 Місяць тому
RUF is a manufacturer, it now produces its own bodies and chassis which are actually quite different from Porsche.
@Flat_3_6 Місяць тому
Not sure the history of RUF, if they ever got licensing from Porsche. They should do what RUF does and change the name of the car and use their own VIN.
@bogdanpanek3481 Місяць тому
Singer is running a commercial business on porsche's back. This is the crux of the matter.
@renndub Місяць тому
With really old cars?! It's not like it's a current model. Porsche is just cash grabbing and flexing since they make overpriced crap now
@MisterMonsieur Місяць тому
Not true. Singer's customers go to them for their unique, artistic restorations. Singer doesn't go looking for anyone. That's the crux of the matter. Porsche goes looking for customers, while enthusiasts go looking for Singer to get what they can't from Porsche. Big difference.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I think everyone is a little right here. It’s a Porsche product as the base and essence. However customers go to Singer for a specific “product”.
@shanefanon Місяць тому
This is not silly . Porsche standing up for itself. About time.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I do think they have a point with Singer 👍
@johnandrews3568 Місяць тому
Interesting that Harry's Garage today put up a review of a Porsche 911 by Theon Design in the UK. Will they be next in the legal line-up?
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I’ll have to look into that 👍
@NapoleonDynamyte Місяць тому
These are customer cars (sourced by Singer) and upgraded. Nothing wrong with that. How does Ruf get a pass?
@kilotiger7780 Місяць тому
Because RUF is a car company. Not a tuner. RUF takes naked Porsche bodies without a vin number and engines and builds their cars with RUF vin numbers. Technically, they're not Porsche's
@G2Merica Місяць тому
Porsche is just mad because Singer made a better Porsche
@sutats 4 дні тому
It's like the Rolex vs La Californienne of the watch world.
@808vws8 Місяць тому
Imagine if they made a deal to work together somehow for “The Brand”...could you fathom the level of car’s🤙🏽
@williammorris3334 Місяць тому
Porsche is off base on this. Number one the 964 is over 17 years old so no patents would still be in effect. Singer is modifying old cars and seeing them is sour grapes, a real dick move Iyam
@btlb4264 Місяць тому
I wonder if this will affect the Theon Design 911...
@RYves-dd4ky Місяць тому
Thanks for content👍, what about ruf?
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
Thanks. I think as RUF are an offical vehicle manufacturer the situation is different. This also feels a little personal so it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out
@RoteGranate Місяць тому
Ruf Like carlsson isnt allowed to badge the cars as Porsche / Mercedes . They have their own badge.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
👍
@brentchuck1664 Місяць тому
This is sad. At the end of the day, it's still a Porsche. Porsche sold that car to someone, and they chose to modify it. It's still a Porsche regardless of what you call it. RUF, Sharkwerks, and many others are probably watching this very closely. At what point does modifying your car become dilution of the brand? Maybe they should build better cars, or offer the modifications themselves? No doubt it boils down to money. Someone needs to get paid.
@malakisands8180 Місяць тому
RWB doesn’t get messed with is because he never removes the Crest on the front and moniker on the rear when it has one. Akira changes the width but not the shell
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I agree
@YoSuey Місяць тому
Completely understandable. Someone with basic car knowledge would immediately call assume a Singer is a "normal" porsche. Something from RWB or anywhere else looks clearly modified.
@OutlawGarage Місяць тому
I think you’re right, singer have walked too closely to Porsche for a while which I think has fractured the relationship
@simoncoppingongoogle850 Місяць тому
I hope that Porsche are gentlemanly about this. It might be something that they have to do to own the IP (or maybe a lawyer hasn't made £10,000 in the last 3 minutes). Either way I hope it doesn't slow the generation of the next Singer
@ronr6450 Місяць тому
So, why hasn't Porsche gone after Emory and their "outlaws"? Emory has essentially been doing the same thing for 25 years. BTW, I own a number of Porsches and love the company, but I fully support what Emory and Singer and others are doing. Porsche needs to settle this stupid suit for $1, and then let everyone go about their business.
@luisalonsomartinez8360 Місяць тому
Can’t see how this dilutes a company that does new products versus one that uses old products and makes a restoration/mod. Is like opening a court case on an owner taking care and modifying his car. Plain stupid imo.
@cjsawinski Місяць тому
I thought that as of just a year or two ago Porsche and Singer were pretty cozy with each other? Guess not, but oh well. Gunther and others better be on the lookout!
@bwest6275 Місяць тому
Damn. So what about RWB? Next on the list?
@dankmemer2774 Місяць тому
"Diluting the brand" says the brand pushing out ev, suv, and sedans. One of the 2 brands are pushing out only sports cars and it ain't porsche.
@huwprice881 Місяць тому
I wonder if Porsche will also pursue Theon Design, who are doing similar work to 964's here in the UK?
@douglaspuglas6888 Місяць тому
I bet Singer owners are routing for Porsche, imagine how much the value will rise if Singer are stopped from making anymore? Personally i hope this doesn't happen because they make some beautiful cars
@alexanderkowollik3681 Місяць тому
All very interesting. But how about RUF? The small manufacturer in Germany that actually redesigned the 911, ....including the GT1.
@marioremondino9837 Місяць тому
Wow, so restoring old vehicles but better than OEM is a threat to the manufacture now. I don’t even understand why a manufacture would care what you do. It’s a like a home builder not allowing you to modify the home after you buy it.
@carmaniacCDN Місяць тому
I recall when Singer was started that they did have conversations with PCNA and they turned a blind eye to what they were doing because they did see value to the brand. I suspect it’s as you’ve said, they are using Singer as an precedent to protect their IP and perhaps start going after less “accomplished” restomodders to prevent bad products from affecting their brand. I highly doubt that Singer is paying much in compensation to Porsche for this case, it’s just an easy avenue with a friendly company to CYA. I think we will see much stronger cases with the likes of Guntherwerks and others coming soon.
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