I can relate to what the Prof is saying. For many years early in my career I worked for large consulting firms, advising clients from a wide spectrum of industries. All we could really contribute was independence and contingency capacity, not expertise; our engagement was simply too wide and diverse. Thirteen years ago I joined a state agency doing project finance and infrastructure. Now I have specialized in a strategically important field, and I have a sense that I am adding real value in shaping policy and strategy. My colleagues and I are doing what the state should be doing on a vast scale. It all starts with attracting and developing talented people, and putting them on a mission.

I think many people in the public sector became experts in perception management and internal politics. There is no more time to build up real-world knowledge to solve complex problems if their focus is only on power and climbing up the ladder. The politicians in almost any government today are the top-shots of this fatal development. They are now perfect clients for all the PowerPoint consultants.

I’ve worked on a engineering level with a quasi public body that spans the UK, the ineptitude was startling. Vast sums of money thrown at projects that hadn’t been engineered correctly, not commissioned fully and ultimately provided both the public and the institution a vastly over priced under performing solution. I have visited most of the early sites built back in the late 60s and early 70s and they are well built, similar in design and tech across the country, perfect solutions. Something has gone wrong in the 50 years since.

The scary part is that more and more private companies outsource their brains and decision making to the same group of consultant. That leads to entire companies have all kind of managers and other talkers but no people who actually produce something.

Consultants are there primarily as a blame avoiding tool. Any report or action proposed by a consultant for any politician or leader in the economy can simply be a huge source of browny points if the proposal turns out to be great success, otherwise it can be blamed totally on the consultant thus avoiding any negative impact on the politician. (Many leaders in business are huge politicians so don't think that they only exist in Westminster) They're prime focus is career progression..

Excellent interview! So true the government is fixing short term problems and creating more long term problems for the next governments. Middle class is getting poor. Taxing on ordinary people but not taxing big corporations is the problem with the government.

'the economy is the output of what we do' the best explanation ever given.

Amazing interview. In France, we went through a national scandal in 2022 caused by the overwhelming reliance of government agencies on consulting firms which existed before Covid but was made worse by the pandemic. I thought it was a French phenom caused by Macron's neoliberal economic doctrine, but it is widespread. Quite worrying!

Damned intelligent Woman, excellent interview. Comes across as one who very much lives outside the box.

Two of the biggest value generators in the last 50 years, Internet and GPS, didn’t come from the private sector. Ditto all the standards that allow all this tech to interwork. Great interview. Totally agree on the early points on procurement and the need to retain skills as well…. Money comes and goes, organisational competence doesn’t. Killer quote for me.

Not only has Mariana got a great engaging writing style, but also has a real understanding of whatever she writes about. As seen in her passion and heard in her fluid train of thought when questioned. No BS, Mazzucato ( I bet her children get away with absolutely nothing). Highly recommend; 'The Values of Everything' if you want to get an overview of neoliberal thought both politically and economically, explaining why for example, a simple change in the early 20th Century had the later consequence of money received via rent (owning an asset be it land , patents, copyrights) becoming part of the measure of GDP, when in fact rent does not produce a product, it's as the classical economists, Marx and Keynes saw it, it's a fixed part of a products eventual negotiated price, and not as Marshalls marginal utility would have it as what people are prepared to pay, even rent. I will always think of marginal utility when ever buy a mars bar. Remembering the first one that quashes the hunger has the greatest value, whereas the 10th not so.

I'm an engineering consultant and former civil servant. The main issues in government are that specialist skills aren't rewarded only generalist skills (my skillset is work at least 3x to the private sector). Most skilled specialists leave the civil service about age 30 so they can afford to buy a house. Secondly, poorly skilled or unmotivated civil servants can't be fired. This makes everything slow and its depressing to work like that when you are skilled.

This woman is so right. She is obviously way more intelligent than most of the vile commenters in this thread so far. Wish starmer would read her book- we need to invest, build and grow the public services not rely on the private sector- it doesnt work!

One of the issues with government in the UK (especially the current one - ministers have literally publicly stated that they don't want more experts) is that they actually loathe the fact that they need the Civil Service to exist in order to implement their ideological programmes; they hate the fact that it was there before they were in charge, will be there after they are gone, and has an institutional obligation , both legal and moral, to the country and not just to the individuals that make up any particular government. They don't want a Civil Service that has the institutional knowledge to call out nonsense. Because they're the ones in charge, and the peons only exist to do what they say. So they drop in Consultants who are being paid to tell them that their ideas are the best ideas in the history of ideas. This hollowing out of the Civil Service's expertise is a deliberate policy to further their authoritarian ideological goals; for them it's a feature and not a bug.

Superb talk, great work from Channel Four giving a platform to such an erudite and original thinker. It's long since seemed the case that the modern liberal-conservative penchant for outsourcing serves primarily to absolve governments of responsibility and to transfer public funds to private interests; and only incidentally to tackle whatever issue at hand.

In my experience the use of 'fads' by consultants from sectors such MBA's infantilises what are often complex social contexts in which we work. In particular an emphasis on marketing 'jargon' based on the latest fads to decision makers. Examples I have encountered include the latest positive psychology trends or poorly delivered design thinking or social enterprise iniatives. Another example is enormous amounts of money spent on high level visioning exercises which produce a beautiful graphically designed visioning document with little thought put into the processes (reality) needed to deliver programmes and how these connect to outcomes. This emphasis on high level jargon and visioning leads to magical thinking - that outcomes will somehow magically appear because we did visioning. Some business consultants seem to lack an understanding that process is needed to connect purpose (vision) to outcomes. Alot more time and effort needs to be spent on designing and managing process. Particularly processes that include reality testing over time so we can adapt programmes to best meet the needs of communities.

Erudite and very timely. We need more of this, and much less of the infantilising impact of consultants on government policy implementation and administration.

Im a reformed strategic consultant running my own business (boo! hiss! ;) and I found this topic really very interesting. My own business is small and most of our consulting comes from subject matter expertise. But, our advice is just that, advice. Our successes have come from where the talent within the organization pick up an idea from us and then run with it themselves. Good businesses/ institutions are ultimately only as strong as the people (and culture) within them making the key decisions. However, I've started seeing a disturbing trend in my area of healthcare which I think the interviewee rightly focuses on - the OUTSOURCING of critical decision making to monolithic 'consultancies' that are anything but consulting in their activities. Their footprint and influence at the board level has enabled them to hoover up huge amounts of work, and they have successfully blurred the line between advisory and outsourcing functions. These consultancies have very little accountability for their actions - ultimately the business has to carry the can for their remote decision making. As for the topic of talent / brain drains - it staggers me that businesses and institutions would rather pay a 24 year old ivy league grad to make decisions with limited real-world experience of a business or environment, yet not trust the talent that sits within their own companies. These consultancies have created a mirage that they contain all the talent and intellect required to grow businesses, when in reality they have nowhere near the capability set required

How refreshing! We need more of this in the UK - it sometimes feels a though we are in a death spiral of faliours and learn nothing.

Effective sense-making, dialogue and collaboration are key.

So many key points made in this single interview. Superb... Joined up thinking personified. Education vs prison a classic truism.

Great interview. As my late dad used to say "She knows her onions."

This talk was FANTASTIC! I could listen to Mariana for hours - a fresh, balanced, strategic view of big issues in our economies 👍🏼

I’ve watched a few interviews with Mariana, she’s whipsmart and doesn’t mince her words. I wish this tinpot government would listen to her.

This is one of the most important conversations I've heard in years, Mariana Mazzucato is an absolute hiero for the kind of attitude we need across every sector of public and private relations.

I left a consulting career, took a massive pay cut, and went into the public sector. Mostly it was so I could look myself in the mirror, but also because it was important work. And given the terrible brain drain and reliance on consultants, I could call bullshit on a lot of the consultant’s work as I know how they think :) But governments are their own worst enemy by prioritising the hiring of graduates. Better to let them go out and earn experience and then come to government with skills to offer. There is a massive problem with the government being a training ground for graduates and then they go off elsewhere. It’s a massive waste of resources, and worse the ones that stay go their whole career with no idea how the world works….

I used to do a lot of contract IT work for the public sector. I pointed out that most of the work I was doing could be done very easily by the staff themselves. They agreed and replied, said with a straight face, that they paid the extra for people like me so that they couldn't be blamed if something went wrong.

The best answers to, 'How do we do this?', could be derived from the study of commensalism. Prof. Mazzucato is the genius we need for this current age.

She's like a breathe of fresh air. I've lived with the destruction of the public sector. I've worked 43 years in it. The question is I always ask is, where has all the money gone? In a way I can see now. I hope and pray a new economical model is on the horizon.

What a fascinating interview! I'm off to buy her latest book.

I can only wish more people listened to & were influenced by Prof. Mazzucato. An amazingly insightful and digestible deconstruction of Public Service Procurement, accompanied by a well deserved kick in the proverbials to the Consultation industry. Thank goodness that the Prof. continues to teach, as this is where change truly occurs. I am truly envious of her students!

love how she explains problems when companies or governments are "outsourcing their brains". Such as eventually you can't even create or review contracts with third parties anymore. I also very much like her views of what should be our priorities such as creating a sustainable economy which benefits as many people as possible. Of course you can have lots of arguments what that economy should look like. But you need people on your team who are smart enough to have serious outcome oriented discussions. At least here in the US we miss one chance after another to send people to congress who have the intellectual capabilities to make constructive contributions. My hope is that eventually we overcome that. I wish that people like Miss Mazzucato are heard and included in determining policies as opposed to creating labels for anything you do not like ("woke", "communist", ....) with many people not even knowing what those terms mean.

Clarity of thought. Absolutely brilliant.

Prof Mazzucato's great strength is her clear analysis and she explains herself in ways which any sensible person can understand. Thank God Starmer has been listening to her. Unfortunately, Streeting doesn't seem to get it.

wow she's awesome! Haven't heard of her before but there's so much sense in what's she's proposing, especially about procurement.

Very good interview. Thanks to both.

Great interview! I'll definitely need to pick up her book.

She informs governments about what to make better and the governments doesn't care about. Wonderfull.

Excellent points and great discussion.

Great interview, Mariana knows her stuff and is very inspiring!

One of the best discussion I watch for quite sometime.

Unbelievably brilliant clarity.

Very insightful interview! Mariana seems to be highly intelligent and a great communicator of ideas. Will be reading her books to get her take on things

Well, she is just superb!! Time to download some of her work.

Same problem here in Australia. A decade of hard right government and the brain drain from the public service has been extreme… And PWC now in the news for sharing confidential advice from the government on tax policy with their clients…

Great program and fascinating guest, but it is best to NEVER interrupt the guest, especially a scholar RS. Canada

Superb, very very insightful!

My partner works for a large public service provider, when contracts are negotiated, it invariably goes to the cheapest offer. To a large Indian company, were their track record is awful. Everyone knows full well that they won't deliver, both parties know no one will challenge them because it will cost too much in litigation. If the general public knew how this worked they would be horrified.

The only expertise most "consultants" have is in working their way into lucrative contracts, and managing them. When someone says "I am a consultant" without immediately following that with the area of deep expertise they bring to their work should be treated with the deepest suspicion.

I learnt this sometime ago, If you outsource something entirely you lose the ability to determine if the person you outsource to is ripping you off or doing a good job or just making reasonable mistakes. I've seen this since the 90s in manufacturing. You should always retain some capacity internally, and use outsourcing to build capacity, that applies to businesses and countries,. Its not black and white simplistic. There is no point in building resistors if your business is TVs, but contracting out building entirely leave you with no expertise. You have to carefully choose what "needs" expertise and can benefit flexibility or competition.

Brilliant as always.

Fantastic talk

Mariana is just awesome. I'm halfway through The Entrepreneurial State and this interview does not disappoint.

Great coverage. ‘American Amnesia’ (Pierson & Hacker, 2016) covers this well too, from the American perspective but it’s all the same neoliberalism. Thank you!

Good and informative talk. Thank you.

So interesting and inspiring! Thank you Mariana!

Clear, sane, brilliant.

Great, stimulating interview. So refreshing to hear a spirited defence of government's role. The only detraction was the interviewer's jacket? Why is he wearing a navy blue tyre?

I work in tech and have had some exposure to consultants, consulting as part of transformation. There are some greet people, doing great work. From what I've experienced it's more the people who hire the consultants, with the intention of making things, faster, more productive and deliver results. The talent is there (private sector), within the organisations, its just that time is money and when something doesn't materialise then its almost better to engage consultants for how it looks, without fully knowing if it makes a material difference or not. I agree with the points made here..

This is much simpler to explain. There is a revolving door between consulting, public and private sectors at the higher levels in all these organisations. So a self-sustaining circle of buyers and sellers exists through mutual self interest. Backed up by alumni networks. Those who play the game best rise thru the layers by moving on every 3 years so the consequences never land on their desk. The less adept end up as management in failing organisations. So most management are either useless ex-big 4 or have no real experience despite the impressive CV/resume. The most hostile exec to consulting I’ve ever encountered was an ex-accountant from a big 4 firm who knew what they were upto and demanded director level sign off for any consulting. Needless to say that was rarely given. Not a bad place to work while he was there …

Deeply engaging conversation 👍

School meals illustration is so powerful. Brilliant.

You see this a lot in higher ed in the U.S. too. Lots of outsourcing and agencies vs. actually hiring competent specialists internally. It's a great shame.

Fascinating.

"To reduce the digital divide"; that sounds awesome to me.

Ive had McKinsey come in and had to teach the consultants that had no clue what they were doing, so they could make a PPT that then the CFO also had me remake for the board. So I literally did everything they should have done, but C suite just wants the sticker that they used “the best”. All the while I did everything for barely 6 figures, they charged 8 figures 🤷🏻‍♂️

" If we keep outsourcing our brain to other actors...we will ultimately get captured by brochuremanship." AMEN.

As a consultant - challenged by this. Great interview.

It's so obvious what she's saying. This is just a conversation about corruption, money for nothing. And is the public / private distinction real, meaningful, or just medieval thinking baked into democracy

Channel 4 at its best, thank you

Love Marianna Mazzucato!!!!

Such an excellent interview - time to get the book!

Infantile is the perfect description of this government, its conduct and its policies..

Great interview. Thank you.

Excellent and inspiring interview !!! Thank you very much to you both for this very insightful momento Am gonna apply ideas drawn from this moment … Best regards from Mauritius island Joel

Very enlightening discussion!

Very interesting amd enlightening. 😊 thanks

The most intelligent interview channel 4 have ever conducted

Wow! I can digest everything she's saying

I’m a former government information technology manager. I observed corruption and embezzlement at shocking levels hidden within govt wrapped with language to cripple internal processes in order to justify contracting out. There is an old boys club of senior executives that award contracts in exchange for gifts and bribes through recruitment agencies. Projects are intentionally crippled by executives undermining their direct reports because failing projects are more lucrative and profitable, executives are never accountable while the managers are framed and obstructed.

Very insightful talk!

Great interview!

00:00 The economy is influenced by how the public and private sectors are governed and their interrelationship. 00:10 A reactive government and profit-maximizing private sector with problematic relationship lead to a problematic economy. 00:40 Marianna Mazzucato, an economics professor, discusses the impact of consultants on businesses, governments, and economies. 01:25 Consultants are advisors who bring expertise to various sectors, including climate change and health 03:09 The government's attempt to run everything in the 70s led to a broken country. The private sector also makes mistakes, but civil servants are blamed more. Learning from mistakes is important, and there has been an ideology that values the business sector over government. 03:32 The private sector often brags about their mistakes, while civil servants are criticized. Learning from mistakes is crucial, and being a learning organization is important. There has been an ideology that values 05:34 NASA worked with businesses in various sectors to overcome challenges and achieve the moon landing. 05:42 Outsourcing brainpower without proper knowledge and contracts can lead to mistakes and inefficiencies. 06:01 The Consulting industry's influence on government contracts has infantilized Whitehall, hindering learning and capacity building. 06:38 Lord Agnew, a conservative 08:07 The problem is not having a new narrative or making the existing one softer. We need government and the private sector to work together for a better economy. 10:43 AstraZeneca is a good example of a well-negotiated deal. 10:52 Governments need to be good at negotiating and investing in deals. 11:03 Austerity is not the main issue, but rather the destruction of public organizations. 11:14 It can take 12:54 The core role of a university is not central to what it does. The core role of a government and health system matters. Government expertise is important for solving problems. 13:13 Government's past failures lead to a lack of confidence in their own competence. Dominic Cummings highlighted the need to change how government bureaucracy is built. 13:46 Creating dynamic and creative bureaucracies is important. NASA changed its bureaucracy to reach the moon. Geeks are willing to join government if its remit is different. 15:25 Making the economy inclusive and sustainable, benefiting as many people as possible. 15:32 The importance of having different representatives of the people making decisions. 15:44 Considering both big and small governments when thinking about who decides what's good for the people. 15:58 Austerity measures created social problems and had a negative impact 18:05 The curriculum fed to bureaucrats globally is framed as fixing market failures, but government failures are worse. Fear of risk prevents experimentation and learning. 18:27 Steve Chu left Stanford to become a civil servant not for money, but for the mission to make the world a better place. 18:43 Being a civil servant means helping steer and collaborate with the private sector to improve society, not just facilitate. 20:42 Consultants cannot solve sustainability and inequality issues. Governments should seek advice, but there may be conflicts of interest and lack of transparency. 20:55 More experts are needed to help and advise, regardless of sector. The key is deep expertise, conflict of interest, and transparency. 21:22 Consulting companies often have conflicts of interest by consulting on both sides. Transparency is crucial in consulting relationships. 23:07 Opportunity and luck played a role in my success as an author. The book I wrote in 2013, 'The Entrepreneurial State,' influenced the UK government's industrial strategy. I also helped change the European Commission's approach to inclusive and sustainable growth. 23:25 The UK government's industrial strategy shifted from sector-focused to challenge-focused, with a focus on clean growth, healthy aging, sustainable mobility, and the day-to-day economy. I collaborated with Greg Clark and David Willetts on a commission for mission-oriented innovation and industrial strategy. 25:28 The 17 sustainable development goals are about designing policy to foster cross-sectoral investment and innovation. Government levers like procurement, budgeting, grants, and loans are used to galvanize bottom-up experimentation. 25:56 The clarity of goals is important to determine if they have been achieved. Some goals, like those related to health and climate inequality, are too broad to answer with a simple yes or no. 27:54 Risks and rewards of privatization and socializing rewards. Better pricing strategy for drugs to save taxpayers. Obama's green direction with guaranteed loans to companies like Tesla and Solyndra. Government picking up the bill for failed companies. Inequity in energy companies' massive rents and executive pay. 28:00 Retaining equity in investments. Criticism of Obama's handling of Tesla. Government steering fiscal stimulus in a green direction. Tesla receiving a guaranteed loan of $465 million. Solyndra's bankruptcy and the government's $500 million loss. The need for a smarter loan 29:57 Our form of capitalism is financialized, but the state has lost faith in itself. Financialization affects the financial sector, real estate, and insurance. The business sector doesn't reinvest in the economy or a greener economy. 30:36 Sweden's mission for school meals is to make them healthy, tasty, and sustainable. This aligns with their goal of a fossil-free welfare state. The supply chain for school meals needs to be green, requiring innovation and transformation. 32:14 Solving problems requires collaboration with other actors, not just bureaucracy. Dismantling the cartoon image of the bureaucratic vs. cool Elon Musk is essential for change. 32:31 Mariana Mascato shares her way to change the world. Collaboration and embracing craziness are key.

fascinating interview

Hey, she's the kind of technocrat we do actually do need (!)

Excellent

I’m glad this is opened up. I am fashion and luxury consultant but this is such an interesting lens that the public also needs to know!

"Brochuremanship" amazingly well put! Class interview, class speaker, writer and academic

I like what she is saying here !! ❤

fantastic talk, thank you for this

In my opinion, democracy is not a meritocracy but a method of governance that is based on a Plurality/Majority System whereby the people exercise their constitutional right to elect the government of their choice in general elections. The candidates who run for election are not required to demonstrate any particular ability to govern by virtue of experience, education, wisdom, knowledge, or understanding. The people give their consent to the elected party to govern the nation to produce the best possible outcomes. As it is not a condition precedent for any Minister to have any relevant experience or education whatsoever to hold a ministerial office, the Minister must employ suitably qualified persons to fill the competence void. Hence, modern democracies have a disproportionate reliance on suitably qualified unelected persons, let’s call them consultants, who have the apparent requisite knowledge, understanding, and wisdom to develop and implement government policy’s. These are the unelected enlightened few who inform all policy decisions and have zero accountability when said policies produce catastrophic results. One might argue therefore that the leaders in most democracies are just actors whom the public elected because they liked the future they promised. The subterfuge is cemented by calling the elected party leaders “Public Servants”. In the UK, the house to which these Public Servants perform their duties for others is called the House of Commons. One therefore cannot have democracy without consultants, and one cannot make consultants accountable for catastrophic government policies without admitting that Ministers are just puppets being manipulated in ways that they can never fathom in an environment over which they exercise no real authority because they lack the fundamental abilities to govern. Once in a blue moon the people elect a true Public Servant, a person who has wisdom and understanding. A leader with honesty and integrity, one who is wholly committed to produce the best outcomes for the nation. Our current democracies testify to the rarity of such an event, in that the leadership of our remaining Western Democracies is remarkable only for the appalling lack of wisdom and understanding within its leadership. This deficit of wisdom and understanding is also evident in the leadership of worlds largest kleptocracy, Russia, and in the monstrous personality cult of the Chinese Communist Party. Democracy, for all its shortcomings, is still the best option for governance for any nation that wishes to exercise freedom of speech, and the protection of fundamental human rights. However, as a system of governance it is under relentless attack, not only from malevolent external forces but more incredulously from within. Everyone who enjoys the endless benefits afforded to them under democratic rule should pause and take stock of this most important and precious form of governance and work to reinforce it, to make it stronger so that it will survive to serve all future generations.

I read her book the Entrepreneurial State. Good Read.

great talk

Very interesting perspective!

This was a great discussion, Channel 4, but it was not about economic theory, per se. It was about a topic I observed while working for 30 years selling products and yes, consulting services to the US Federal Government. This is a very real challenge in the US (Federal and State governments) and obviously in the UK. There are many real challenges to level up the skills of public sector workers, particularly, as in the US, there is an effort to significantly reduce and eliminate whole portions of "the Administrative State." Indeed, US federal and state governments have been "Captured by consultants", for instance in the state governments, NGO ALEC writes the legislation and legislators put their names on it. "Good Government" is not something the libertarians or political conservative right seek. They are about "the market" and industry knowing better. That's why you often hear in the US what we really need is a business person leading the government (that worked out well for us the last time, eh?). I will look into Mariana Mazzucato's work, she reminds me of Harvard's Steve Kelman, who POTUS Clinton brought into his Administration to change the way they conducted procurements while "Reinventing Government", Al Gore's then portfolio. Her publishers should have told her there is a reasonably well known book with the Title "The Big Con" which the movie the Sting was based on.

Very thoughtful

She is so right, a wonderful interview from Channel 4. We need her in the government making sound policies.

This woman rocks it. Love her interviews.

A great interview and i so agree with her. A society needs to have a clear objective to make the society develop in a consistent way. As a Swede that worked some of my working years in UK I see a huge difference in the approach. She meansioned the Swedish school lunches as a good example and they are amazing. However this is 60+ years of implementing and refining the idea that ALL KIDS need to eat well to learn in school but also that we never use publjc money to single out people as "less able". If a kid singled out getting free lunches can be seen as a good thing in nutrition aspects...but hinestly it comes with a huge price. He or she is now rubber stamped as poor and will be seen as different by themselves and by others. We have this view in many of our society programs...this to equality in political and economic power but giving kids and adults similar opportunities. That goal is not prioritiesed at all in UK IMO where unequality set in the imperial and industrial revolution is still so visible today missing out on the best "natural resource ", our kids in this and coming generations. We see some of it also in Brexit where exceptionalism thinking by some and the avoidance of seeing the bigger picture will become a threat in developing a good country for everyone to "flourish" in...

Really great insight