This episode was recorded on 07/09/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-6v6-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a

I agree with Hawk on this point: " low level players are hesitant to play solo tank in 5v5 because the team will blame you for every fight lost/won."

i can't believe it samito is the most polite one in this combo. That's growth and i respect him so much for that

"Tank diff" is the thing you hear THE MOST after a stomp, that is all I have to say

if someone told me that samito will eventually be the most hinged guest on this pod like 3 years ago, i would've called that person a liar but here we are

I appreciate Sam raising his hand and not interrupting. It's a little annoying how much other people are talking over each other and interrupting before someone even finishes their point

I’m on team Samito on this one.

5v5 arguements are to remove teamwork from a team game wtf

Samito bringing up DLC creep was the most understated argument the constant evolution of the game will leave older heroes in the past until they are changed.

sam is the only person here who understands low/average level play and alot of the stuff he brings up is dismissed far to much

I think one thing they overlooked a bit too much is when they talked about tanks being strong or playable when the average tank player just wants the role to be fun again. Playing tank sucks and feels significantly more stressful to play than the other roles now.

The fact that there is no 6v6 mode like "ow classic" in even arcade is telling, it would become too popular

man, i Seriously respect SVB's ability to keep things focused and on track. im glad he's still cooking

Only 2h into the video but I think something that isn't getting talked about here, a blind spot if you will, is what feels better to LOSE at. The 6v6 guys don't like being a solo tank, the 5v5 guys don't like anti-synergy tank duos, but which feels worse to lose at? I think Hawk expresses that frustration best -- being a tank main and not favored by flavor of the month SUCKS more than being stuck with a hog or ball otp as your off-tank where you can still try to make plays with them. 6v6 was more fun to lose at, as well as fun to win. 5v5 being more stompy isn't as fun as that.

I honestly hate AVRL in these debates. He seems like he has a big ego and is arguing more for winning the debate than for actually being intellectually honest. Same with Jake to some degree too though.

Jakes point of being forced to pick a synergy hero may sound smart until you realise in 5v5 you are forced to play meta which actually reduces the probability of you being able to play your main

6 vs 6 won the argument hard.

it's like you can just tell samito's break from OW has done him a lot of good, he's definitely still passionate but he's also able to stay more objective in a lot of stances which i appreciate. glad to have him on the debate, and SVB was showing particularly excellent debate administration skills this time more than others in a lot of senses.

I remember playing 5v5 beta and being really bored and going back to 6v6. 6v6 synergies is what gave me the most dopamine when we were working as a team. Now it’s a chaotic death brawl there’s no teamwork synergies to be found. Genuinely what made 6v6 so disliked was the frequency of patches. And I guarantee you 5v5 was created to add reasoning for the cash shop.

PTSD from goats is no joke can't go 10 minutes without mentioning it 😂

I think Mauga really solidified the biggest problems with 5v5 that would be much easier to balance in 6v6

"You are basically always handicapped to pick something that synergizes with your other tank" So exactly the same as what happens in OW2 if you queue tank and your supports dont pick things that synergize with eachother? So its just a personal problem you have, when its you affected by its its a problem, when you just shove those problems onto another role it stops being a problem. This Jake kid is fkn clueless

Dude, AVRL saying "I gotta finish my point" was the funniest shit ever!!! THE man that interrupts EVERYBODY ALWAYS, asking to be allowed to finish his thought … Gold

The defence for 5v5 just sounds like there's literally no reason to play OW anymore because its all about deathmatching rather than the team fight aspect. Overwatch has lost any identity.

I miss 6v6. Tank is miserable right now, I win or lose, doesn't matter... All the CC goes to you, it is always your fault, and at certain ELO, Diamond and above if your team doesn't play around you , you HAVE to counter swap or play the META. At least in 6v6 as pointed out, your other tank could fill the weaknesses or even work with the synergy, etc, more variety.

Poor samito😭. Bro was fighting for his life to clean up after hawk

I think both sides make great arguments, but I just have to say huge props to Samito. He takes into account others' position and concedes on points when appropriate. Everyone on the podcast has strong feelings but it all stems from the love of the game and I think that's great. Very interesting watch and I hope any developers watching can take some meaningful information away from this.

The argument for 5v5 was just 6v6 is to hard to balance. I’d rather we not give up on a more successful game because we can’t balance properly.

Samito dropping the facts!!!

Double shield this, double shield that. Everyone’s shield health is lower and orisa doesn’t even have hers anymore

One thing I think should have been addressed more is the fact that almost all hard CC was removed from the game as we transitioned to OW2. I believe a lot of the people saying 5v5 fundamentally 'feels better' are actually just enjoying the lack of constant hard CC (though its slowly coming back). We don't know how ow1 would have felt if they reworked flashbang, brig stun, doom punch, etc. I also think the support giga buffing happened as a premature overreaction to dive being unchecked by CC in season 1.

jake constantly contradicted himself and then would look at hawk like hes crazy lol

Jake wants overwatch to be cod

2:24:59 the problem is that jake isn't the only cringe tank player, it's like 90% of tank players at ALL elos. I've had people counterpicking me on tank from plat 5 all the way to gm1. When from the tank v tank matchup alone only 1/10 matches will be fun, lowered even further to like 1/20 by all the supps and DPS counterpicking you, it's just sucky. That's a fundamental 5v5 issue.

15:55 oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes bubbled oh you think you can come inside my bubble and sleep dart the winston? no hes litearlly immortal cause he got suzu'd No self-awareness whatsoever. The only difference between what he likes and what he hates is whether it is tanks or supports who get to decide whether the tanks can play the game or not.

Never understood the "the if x main tank you have to pick y off-tank" argument, because every other role is also like that, you don't play mercy lucio or anything like that on suport.

Overwatch 1 tank main with over 1000 hrs on tank role playing in bronze through mid diamond playing all tanks. I loved tanking in O1 recently uninstalled O2. Samito hit the nail on the head for me at 1:48:00. The flexibility and the playstyles that you had to express yourself at lower levels of play were much higher, whereas in Overwatch 2 i feel funneled to play a specific playstyle that is not fun to me. For example, I used to play Reinhart (with another main tank) like an off tank, either super aggro, or sneaking around, taking highground, getting behind the team and shattering. I made it to diamond with that playstyle and it was so much fun. I'm not going to be the best in the world with that but now I don't have the option to try. Even if I had a hog on my team in O1 (which happened in a lot of games) I felt as if I had much more agency to play around the hog even if the other team had perfect tank synergy, through slower gameplay. It felt like when the conversation was shifted to the average player's perspective/experience, Samito was the only one that really seemed to understand what it was like, especially when referring specifically to the tank mains perspective. Also, how are we going to talk about tank queue times without mentioning they went from needing two tanks on a team, to one. Something else to add is that AVRL really overestimates how well people used tank synergy, even in diamond. You could literally play whatever tank you preferred at that level. At least in my experience. As long as you could deny their wincons

Samito is such a smart person.

I love that 6v6 is being discussed more, for me that was real Overwatch and OW2 has yet to live up to even a fraction of Fun 6v6 brought me personally. I am a tank main, but i also play a lot of Supp and DPS and to be honest i dont find DPS and Supp more fun but i find Tank 100x less fun in 5v5. I noticed they couldnt really agree on a casual players perspective, which is the majority of the playerbase, in my opinion casuals dont care about balance, they just want to have fun, which was more easily achiveable on tank in 6v6. Qing with my OW noob friends, duoing tank with them and teaching the role is some of the best moments i had in gaming, making tank Solo, completly ruins it from a Social standpoint, since casuals cant play together as 2 tanks and you dont have this feeling of "We outplayed them together" which was just always so hype, i mean we notice it in OW2s voice chat, nobody talks, seems like everyone just lost their will to win. Balance is also debateable, but i think, if RoleQ got more than 6 months worth of patches, it would have been great, like sam said, the only real issue people had was 2x Shield, every other meta wasnt complained about if we are being honest. Id love for Blizzard to try 6v6 with less CC, less Shields and overall less of the AoE Heal/Immortality abilities which make gamepla feel cheap, if we get that i think OW would be at its peak, similar to 2016 - 2018.

@2:31:00 AVRL has no idea what he's talking about. Low ranked players would love for the game to be catered towards higher skill ceiling heroes. Even in low ranks the most popular heroes are Genji, Tracer, Hanzo, etc. And the most hated hero for years has been Moira because she makes it harder for them to enjoy the higher skill ceiling heroes. Heroes like Sym, Moira, Brig, etc have been the most hated in low ranks forever.

I liked the debate but at the same time it was really tilting to hear some of the arguments being brought up so often. I think this could've been easily avoided by either refuting them fast (that's on sam & hawk) or just setting a scenario in which the debate is happening, such as you did by saying "this is about 6v6 role lock and not goats". I would've wished for people to consider all the new content that came to OW2 5v5 more and consider this amount of content in 6v6 too. It was brought up at some point when they talked about JQ as a good Tank design but wasn't discussed enough i think. You can not by any means compare 6v6 at the state of double shield meta with the current 5v5, that is not a fair comparison considering that the game was abandonded without any new content for like 2 years. People needed to be reminded of this more often i think. Any time jake would argue about more diversity in OW2 i was immediately thinking: yeah no shit sherlock, you have more heroes overall in the game that in itself will make it more diverse. Combine that with the need to counterswap on the tankrole and there you have it. I felt like this argument was brought up way too much for it to be kinda meaningless. Another thing that didn't feel fair was: dismissing hawks argument about the tank matchup being boring bc hawk himself is "an outlier" in the matchmaker and arguing as if this would not be the case for the majority of the playerbase. Pls just talk to people. Nobody wants to queue Tank. If what Hawk is saying is not true or applies only to him, what are the reasons for other people not to like tank? and really what makes you think that they will be able to fix that for the average player, when we had like 12 patches by now and it only got worse? I liked a lot of this debate but it ultimately came down to Hawk saying "tank was more fun in OW1 and we could've fixed double shield" and then jake or AVRL saying "no we couldn't fix balance in OW1 bc we say so but we can fix it in OW2 bc we say so but we have zero evidence for it in 6 and a half seasons of patches"

sams 100%right. AVRL and his "im right your wrong" attitude ticked me off a little...

Watched it on twitch, Samito and Hawk really echoed my feels, the game is just tasteless with 5v5 on tanks as a casual player 😥 - Really 5v5 just flipped a switch on this role for me. Where was Hawk hiding all this time in these debates?! More of him

As a gold player since ow1 launched, i miss 6v6 alot. Tanking was much more fun when there was an off tank.

Its a crime not having flats for this one 😭

I don’t believe it is possible to make tank as fun in 5v5 as it was at its best in 6v6. The best argument they have is junker Queen is THE 5v5 tank. And junker Queen has not been playable for most of ow2. When she was playable, not playing a counter junker Queen meant almost certain loss. Jake seems to think counter swapping = fun healthy game. As a tank main, being stuck in a constant loop of rock paper scissors is a fun killer. And because there is one tank, if I’m countered by ONE person on the enemy team, I don’t have a second tank to cover my weaknesses. If the enemy plays Zarya and Zarya is any good, I go Winston to counter, the enemy goes bastion to counter me, now I’m fucked. I’m not allowed to play the game. I don’t see this problem as fixable in 5v5. In 6v6 I am not forced to switch just because of one counter. It takes at least two people countering AND my own team comp has to be bad before I cannot play the game and HAVE to switch. I would love to see a proposal to make 5v5 tank fun. Because I simply don’t see it as possible

Personally I find it hard to defend 5x5 personally. Thinking the devs can fix the tank balance in 5v5 but not 6v6 is a joke when they don’t have a PvE mode to worry about anymore

6v6 was just more fun for tank. We can argue back and forth between which had more tank agency and variety, but in the end tank players had more fun in 6v6. They removed half of the queue slots for tank and the role still has the shortest queue time. Objectively, queue time should be twice as long as other roles if as many people want to play tank. Instead OW2 has less than half the number of tank players as support or DPS, and it's clear that the shift has gone to support which now has the highest queue time for maybe the first time in OW history. This whole discussion just seems like DPS players discussing which metas they hated the most. Tank players don't like OW2. Support is insanely overtuned now in OW2 after DPS was incredibly dominant for months. Tanks aren't interesting. Like Hawk said, JQ is the only tank that's been added/reworked that has any sort of skill expression. Doomfist was super interesting but they can't find a way to balance him. Ram/Orisa/Sigma are basically just the same character in terms of what they do, with each being slightly more optimal in different situations. "Tanks were left behind" is a copout - the devs KNEW they were going to 5v5 and STILL, YEARS LATER, haven't fixed the tanks that got left behind. They've even NERFED Rein, Zarya, etc when they were finally playable. The only fix is reworks, and that's the same as throwing some of these characters out, which means 5v5 threw away a whole role worth of heroes because of how bad it is to balance it in a tank/DPS/support setup. They can't have tank work in 5v5 and have it be fun. Ram/Orisa/Sigma is like the absence of flavor and they're so generic and similar that it shows how little design space there is now for tank.

I think they should have made separate roles for main tank and off tank. That would have stopped double shield and kept the fun duos.

The only thing Jake convinced me so far is dps players dont deserve opinions

I believe the reason everyone complained about double sheild is not because of the tanks, but because the characters playing behind the tanks became unflankable, so you had no agency after that.

I was a dps player for a long time in overwatch 1 and actually picked up tank late overwatch 1 in double shield and still enjoyed it more than dps cause that synergy was so good and fun. Now I hate playing tank cause it’s simply meta slave of the month. I went from one trucking JQ to one tricking dva or Orisa. It’s simply not fun and synergy is WHAT makes overwatch good.

The longer this podcast goes on the more it's apparent Jake has no interest in playing a team game & just wants to be able to solo carry

Avrl and Jake arguing in bad faith 2:13:00 then telling Sam he was made my blood boil Avrl and Jake really losing the plot in this part of podcast

samito and svb babysiting this lobby

6v6 would bring me, and the people i played with back to overwatch probably. 5v5 has brought with it a deeply unsatisfying rolling meta, less interesting comps, less interesting team fights. It just wasn't necessary.

Props to SVB for moderating this. Always love listening to these on long drives for work

Man what has the world come to when Samitto is the most grounded, polite of the group. He has by far the best take on the whole situation too. As a DPS mostly player in a little bit of tank 6v6 was so much better. Constantly having to counter swap in overwatch two is infuriating. I literally refuse to play the game after a game or two. I didn’t mind having to pick synergistic charecters in overwatch one. That’s what makes this kind of game different from a typical Fps. There was a team death match game mode that you could play if you wanted anywase. I play overwatch for the team synergy and hero interactions. Overwatch two is just running around and see who gets the first pick. And as a gold rank consistent player double shield was never a problem for too long. Outside of the top ranks players aren’t gonna play orisa sigma cause it’s boring. Most matches. It was just Rinehart Road hog or literally any other random assortment of tanks because people play who they like. And it didn’t feel as punishing for playing the wrong tanks as it does in overwatch two because you weren’t so easily punished with a direct counter. But now in overwatch two even in gold the matchups, feel miserable to play against. If your tank is getting out dual by their tank, the game is awful. It feels borderline unwinnable. There was more room for error in overwatch one because you at least had two tanks someone could lift the load if the other one was slacking. And just naturally when you have more players on each team, you take some of the stress off the individual player. If I’m having an under performing game or an over performing game it’s gonna be evened out more so the matchmake is going to be better. It’s way easier to find a team average for balance the larger the sample size it’s simple science. And plus the supports felt way more Kilbourne overwatch one and they do in overwatch two. Supports are obnoxious to duel against because they have 1 million tools to save themselves. I don’t know I can only bear to play the game for the first couple days of the season at this point. Just my thoughts grammar might be bad. It’s hard to check it on mobile and this was mostly voice to texted lol.

Jake doesn’t debate often and you can tell. Contradicting, interrupting, derailing 😅

AND TO CAP IT ALL OFF JAKE MAKES THE OPEN CUE ARGUEMENT IN HIS CLOSING ARGUEMETS HOLY SHIT!!!

Samito's back!!!!!

12:40 they said that tank synergy is stronger than support. Hawk says that support synergy is just as strong or stronger. Avril then goes on to confirm that these comps need tank synergy just as much as support synergy reinforcing and validating Hawk's point......does he know what he's saying?

You can't blame 6v6 for this; the game was abandoned for more than 2 years. They could have focused on fixing the game, but they chose a lazy approach by simply removing one role, thinking it would solve all the problems, which actually had the opposite effect. Some people might argue that the state of the game is okay or better now, and it might be true, but that's because they've recently started giving attention to the game, fixing some problems, and making 5v5 work with the new system. I play almost every day, and in my experience, when I ask other players if 6v6 is better and if they want it back, almost everyone says 6v6 is way better. Anyone who argues that 6v6 was the problem and 5v5 fixed it is delusional and wrong.

Avrl, you can’t both say that no matter what tank duo it is oppressive, and simultaneously be UNABLE to name ONE besides double shield. You can’t have your cake and eat it too! If it’s true of any tank duo STOP RUNNING from picking an example!

One of the core reasons 6v6 was better, is specifically because the game benefits from the strongest synergy being the tank synergy. Why? Because tanks are what establish the frontline, the team anchor, and through this you get order in the match. You have to respect that tank frontline, because if you disregard it, it will plow through you. This means everyone can't just run around finding their own 1v1's without having to be very calculated and skilled in doing so, knowing when to press and take angles, how to position, how to fall back etc. The frontline that tank synergy created, was singlehandedly what gave order to the otherwise chaotic nature of a hero shooter like Overwatch. This is where I disagree the most with Jake (and to a degree AVRL). Jake makes the example of Ana not being able to go into Winston's bubble and sleep him, because he is also bubbled by Zarya to negate cc. Why is that a bad thing? It's actually the exact opposite, it's a benefit, because it means that the Ana has to respect the range of Winston's leap, and instead of countering with basic ability use, the Ana instead has to learn good positioning and play in accordance to the threat level of a bubbled Winston. Forward to OW2, and the Ana can now give a rat's ass about positioning, because now there is nothing to stop her from countering the Winston no matter where on the map the Ana plays from - and this in turn means the Ana doesn't have to respect frontlines, angles, or anything of the sort unless it's a coordinated dive where she draws attention from multiple enemies, which is far less likely. So now the Ana has the freedom to just run around the map like it's a death match, not care about positioning, out-ability the tank trying to press her, and basically do whatever tf she wants. Now add this to every player doing whatever tf they want, and you get that nature of 5 1v1's happening every fight, which makes it more likely that someone does something dumb because there is nothing stopping them from getting into dumb situations due to the natural chaos that the lack of an established frontline presents. You're far more likely to run into some dumb rng outcome because everyone is just running round doing their thing regardless of what the tank is doing, because the tank doesn't really matter anymore. The supports matter, and the supports can not form a frontline. In OW1 you would always try to follow your tank duo wherever they went, because they represented such a strong spearhead that if you didn't follow them, you'd most likely get fucked by the enemy team. At the very least you would be following your main tank if the off is a Roadhog doing his thing. In OW2 there is zero incentive to follow your tank, because there is no exponentially strong spearhead on the enemy team to be afraid of. You can afford to be on an eternal flank as S76 because nobody can ever punish you for it to an equal degree of the value you're already getting. There is no off-tank to challenge you when you intrude on enemy space. At most you will find yourself in a 1v1 with a dps or support, leading to a 50/50 outcome that is chaotic because no side is objectively favored in any challenge, and this is why so many fights feel like steam-roll coinflips. You aren't incentivized to respect any particular force on the opposing team, so you just do what you want and anarchy creates chaos by nature. In OW1, the pre-fight exchange of abilities was actually a key part of why there was order, rather than chaos. It filtered out a lot of the rng outcomes associated with anarchistic gameplay, by having a sort of "forced" exchange of resources before hard impact is dealt. It makes things go from 0-30-60-100 in a gradual manner, also giving time to assess situations and adapt fluidly. In OW2 you don't have this transition, instead you go from 0-100 in an instant and there is no chance to adapt to rng, because rng now causes that 100% spike, rather than a 30% spike.

Can we get this debate with other people, keep sam tho, we kinda got an overley excited duo with AVRL Jake

I was honestly a 5v5 enjoyer before this podcast and thought it was way better, hearing the arguments for 6v6 in this podcast changed my mind it does sound way better to me. I do believe we should have tried different balancing or reworks now. Playing tank I do feel locked to the flavor of the month or their counter otherwise I lose, which has completely ruined the role for me and alot others I believe. I think losing one roles enjoyment entirely makes the 5v5 argument worse unless balance or reworks are able to change that feeling.

Really appreciate you taking the time to time stamp, great listen as always

Wasn't the whole argument for 5v5 was to reduce queue times since no one wanted to play tank. We dropped 1 tank and we're still having queue times. Tanks were never the problem.

Jake and Avril intentionally ignoring the argument, interrupting and being insulting at points took away from the debate. Acting like 6v6 was unfixable when they diverted 2 years of dev time for ow2 is insane.

I don’t get why team comp is being discussed with average players, I thought it had been pretty established that it’s not very important because average players can’t execute anyways, people aren’t in comms, etc.

If u actually think u can play what ever u want in low rank and not get counter picked then it really just shows how disconnected the high ranked players are from the low ones

the thing that samito gets that avrl and Jake don't is that 5v5 removed the thing that made overwatch the game we all fell in love with. it's not even close to the same game, and samito is the only one who is accurately explaining that 5v5 is just straight up not as fun as 6v6 was

You can really tell who’s the mature one in this podcast.

I just had this thought, but if Flats was brought into this specific debate, it would have been funny as hell. Because he wouldn't be on either side of Team 6v6 or Team 5v5 in this debate. Instead, he would have interjected at each moment that tanks were mentioned just to get his feelings & woes out there, as if it were a therapy session.

Bro 5v5 defenders like AVRL and Jake are more stubborn. Sam and hawk are brining up valid points. But they’re just ignore all of them lmao. 5v5 is already a year old and still proves is can’t be balanced.

If 5v5 truly *was* better, you would not get legions of players begging for it back. It's like, the majority of the playerbase doesn't care about people in Top 500. Sorry, but it's true. We don't care what is fun for them specifically or what they are trying to tell us is best "for us." It legit sounds like Bobby Kotick lecturing the guy making $14 an hour at Mcdonalds about why he's poor. Like, shut up about. If 5v5 is better, why do you have to try so hard to convince us it is?

Infact id go as far as saying in 6v6 life weaver gives more flex options for the second tank to make more diverse off picks

The 4v4 argument is the total kill-shot to any 5v5er.

A lot of good points have been made on both sides, but myself and most of the friends I have used to love tank (it was my favorite) in 6v6, but none of us want to do it now and basically draw straws for who has to - I have a good feeling this is a common occurrence in the community

I see no downside to at least give 6v6 as an arcade mode. Tank went from my favorite role to the one I almost never play. Jake and AVRL make good points *at the top level* but the complete lack of teamwork most of the time at metal/diamond ranks makes relying on only one tank too reliant on one person. My friends and I actually really enjoy open queue (diamond in the comp mode) because we can do two tanks again but the tanks aren't as strong. If one of us dies, there's another tank there to help the team but they aren't a raid boss. I agree with Samito and Hawk that balancing was the problem not the 6v6 format. They also could've just made it where only one shield tank can be selected at a time. To AVRL's point, I'd rather have two 50% tanks than one 100% tank. Also Bap Immo is my least favorite thing they've ever added, pretty lame to negate an entire ult with a cooldown.

I agree with Sams points. Its subjective whether you enjoyed 6v6 or 5v5 but in taking out that extra tank you took out flexibility and options in the tank role. From a casual players perspective barring "meta" I enjoyed trying goofy stuff with my friends and enjoyed seeing different combinations of tanks could do. I would argue with all the OW2 changes and addition of all the other heroes it would be a blast still. I think if anything removing a tank made it less appealing to casuals bc now that 1 tank has cover more responsibilities. With every other role the responsibility is split between two. I asked several friends who started with OW2 and most of them avoid tank for that reason.

Hearing Jake say “Just flank the Orisa and ignore” is probably the funniest thing so far. Once you flank the Orisa they have a Bap and Illari w/ insane healing and damage with 1 deployable immortality and 1 deployable healing bot to cook you. Proper 6v6 never had a chance to work because OW1 was basically a beta for most of it’s life. Double shield never got a chance to be fixed as they already gave up the game. There is also way less pressure in OW2 so snipers and supports can go crazy. And if they do get pressured your team is cooked because you have to split

Ow2 is a pure money grab. They made it 5v5 so they could call it ow2 and impliment this new crappy payment system for battlepass skins etc. Ow1 was way better.6v6 is better

What a cast. Appreciate you and the content SVB!

Blizzard should definitely make a legacy mode in arcade of 6v6, just though in a 2nd tank in there and see what happens Never thought I would be relieved and excited for samito to start talking out of anyone he seems like the only one with well thought out constructive things to say When they are defending 5v5 with the fact that u were tied to ur tank duo for what u pick it is worse now in 5v5 because u don’t get to pick what u want it is ether pick the 1 meta hero or be counter swapping constantly I think a lot of why they defend 5v5 was with orisa but now that she doesn’t have a shield I think nose of there arguments are really valid because balance changed that 19:02 that shows support power creep not tank being op 41:15 tank definitely feels way more like don’t make mistakes because idk how sitting at a corner not doing anything only pressing buttons when you need to definitely doesn’t sound like making plays to me 45:42 I think if 2 tanks jump on one person then they should be able to win that and the tanks job is to take space so if you are a tank and you jump on something and you don’t pose a threat for them to respect you and you just die then you can’t do your job and you feel hopeless and powerless 1:23:48 junker queen would fit very well in 6v6 she would be like a more team based roadhog and I think it was emong I could be wrong that did a custom game to make it 6v6 and said it was really fun and he makes and aoe speed sound like this crazy different thing like Lucio never existed 2:15:18 me as well

I want to see this version of Sam more often in his own streams

Holy cinema dialogue! This 3 hour long debate is a treat to watch with some food.

I think the 5v5 side loses a lot of legitimacy by insisting on the “optimal play” of tank synergies in OW1. How often does that happen outside of top play? And that’s nothing compared to how easy it is to get value from 1 tank in OW2 without playing optimally. You just spam CDs. Tanks diving the backline in OW1 had a response in peel, so the whole getting run over argument is overstated. Finally, you can for sure get most tank combos to work again outside of top play. Focusing on that aspect is short sighted. The game had fewer tanks, the off tank role was not balanced properly, and at least it required skill in most metas (double shield aside).

AVRL again with the stupid dishonest points, in 6v6 tank was the most hated role? In 5v5 you have career tank streamers who have made their living off of playing tank, quitting the tank role. This isn't even a comparison. Tank is OBJECTIVELY worse in 5v5 and more hated. Edit: Another note I forgot to say; they want to talk about queue times being objective? Queue times for tank are just as bad as OW1, but with HALF the required players. The queue time metric also points to tanks being more hated in 5v5.

SVB such a beautiful human being

I really wish they would have some normal level players on. In diamond, getting grouped with ball hog or whatever was 100% better than watching your dumbass rein in 5v5 swing at an Orisa 50 times and do literally nothing, and then die. At least the ball hog might accidentally get a kill.

SO much to unpack here. Thanks SVB for bringing us this content. Most of the arguments for BOTH sides apply to BOTH 5v5 and 6v6. The format is besides the point - but the Tank queue times are still suffering RIGHT NOW. The role isn't fun and isn't being made fun. This wasn't properly addressed. Counter-swapping ult refunds weren't addressed. Matchmaking is going to be busted as long as there is one tank. Period. You cannot matchmake for who mains what tank, and you will always end up with permutations who are hard-countered before the lobby even begins. The casual tank experience is really bad and exceptionally so because of there not being a 2-player buffer against steamrolls. The 5v5 side operated in pretty poor faith, and refused to give up almost any ground DESPITE the other side (namely Sam) conceding on several points. There's also OBJECTIVE data (Blizzard last quarter earnings report) in which they stated their Monthly Active Users (WITH DIABLO IV JUST RELEASED) was WORSE than RIGHT BEFORE OW2 EXISTED. And these guys are acting like 5v5 has been a godsend. It is transparent to everyone that no proper solutions were attempted in 6v6 which is why it keeps coming up. The devs announced 5v5, and the FIRST thing they do is remove Orisa's shield. Like, are you f*** serious man? You couldn't do that during double shield? It's also unfortunate that one of the first things decided upon was to leave out Open Queue. Guys, Open Queue is currently diluting some of the player base for nostalgia's sake. THIS SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH 6V6 CLASSIC. PERIOD. THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO DO THIS AND BOTH SIDES WOULD LIKELY AGREE. Also - this debate needed casual representation. The 5v5 side seemed particularly out of touch with it and a 5th person / mediator could have helped both sides.

Rein charges at the same speed as Sigma's shield projection. Combo to be missed. Unsleepable space creation. And its built in for Mauga now.

AVRL's argument that people in lower levels get gapped harder due to tank synergies in 6v6 than at higher levels is simply not true. At lower levels most tank duos are viable b/c the opposing tanks also aren't able to synergize to the level that the combo is oppressive. At most people are comboing tank Ultimates like grav+bomb shenanigans etc... At high levels tanks become force multipliers for one another, but at lower levels where players don't have the knowledge/skill to synergize as well, that effect becomes more muted.

Truth is, the pro 5v5 argument just sounds like you like being the catalyst for team kills and don't play tank as much as other roles...

Tank synergies were too strong/important. CP: They were also the most satisfying and fun When one tank picks X, you need to pick Y or Z to actually go well together. CP: In OW2, either there is a tank so oppressive that not picking it is nearly throwing, or your opponent picked X so you can either play X for the mirror or play Y to counter and otherwise you lose. If they divide tank into main and off tank they can prevent double shield. The only problematic one is ball because he is so fluid between those rolls. 😎 (yeah I know, "roles") I get there could be queue time issues, but we already have them. We have had them. When have we NOT had them?

I don't agree with Jake saying tanks have specific synergy that works. That's really only at the highest levels, you can play any 2 tanks in lower ranks even Doom + Ball

this was such a juicy episode. I can feel everyone’s passion and care for this game and i was so tuned in the entire time! Well done moderating as well :)

I used to be a hardcore OW1 player and now I only play very casually with other friends and we're never in comp. Samito is 100% right on the casual's players perspective throughout the debate, on pretty much everything. We all loved the fun team comps we ran and made it more flexible for everyone's favorite play-styles, and even if we lost, it was still enjoyable. I wish they listened and believed Samito more there in-terms of the benefits to the common player in 6v6