Same princi[le as MICC

Yep. And screwing down the cable clams sufficiently to deform the lead sheath was deliberate - to try and ensure electrical continuity.

Apologies for waffling on too much 🫢.

You cracked me up 😄👌

Slowly and surely I'm turning it into The cupboard under the stairs 🤣. Full of old junk.

Cheers Chris, ice cream tubs do still have their uses after the contents been eaten 😋 😆👍

To be honest the actual quality of JBs these days is crap. The terminals thread off with anything over 1.1 Nm and the plastic surrounding them explodes when you tap it with a screwdriver. Old school JBs were made of real stuff that lasted.

so we’re old school electricians

@@JBE The old Ashley-Rock J.B.'s still a place for them.

Cheers Nick, I'm now going to sell your stickers on ebay 🤣👍.

I thought so too. It's amazing what's still in service out there!

@@JBE I am in Uganda and most of the system here is similar to the UK pre 2004 changes. You find some odd things in old houses but nothing like that yet.

@thecleanspark3335 So you're still using Red and Black cables? Hopefully you're not using ring main circuits for your socket outlets?

Yap red and black; also ring mains are still a thing. I can't stand them because almost every property owner soon or later adds random spurs all over the place. I do radials.

@@JBE yap. Easier to see when you are in lofts if you ask me. Although weirdly vendors also sale UK/EU coloured twin and earth!

No problem thanks for watching.

#metoo I like Quickwire even though I've only used them a couple of times. But they're not exactly common or what the average domestic spark would carry ample stock of on the van.

I have all but abandoned the old screw terminal junction boxes. Screws can work loose over time causing arcs and fires. Wago types of connectors do not work loose.

Cheers Mark. It's all good for the industry and can only help us gain knowledge.

Cheers Reece, the past does indeed sound back breaking work and we complain enough now 🤣🤟.

Just needs the music from the Hovis add in the background, to complete the picture

​@@JBE But we always complain, it keeps us happy and sane - forever ruminating about a past job - was there some tiny detail we didn't get quite right, and then we lift a floor, or open a ceiling see the mess which some chancer has lashed in, especially if its getting opened because of a test reading on an EICR not making any sense, and realise perhaps we are doing alright after all.- the classic round JB with all the CPCs outside twisted together or in a bit of hoc block (or half in a bit of choc block)

A few years ago, late nineties, early noughties, I found an unopened box of lead cable in an old dears shed. I got to open it and roll it out on the lawn. It was only probably ten yards long I'd say. It was, as you'd probably expect, like brand new inside, and meggered perfectly. No, I wasn't tempted to use it. Honest.

Hey Olly cheers for watching 👀👍.

If I get a sticker from JW I'll be wearing it on my coat like a good boy who's just been to the dentist 😁.

So you should😁

They do come in all shapes and sizes for various needs. But I must admit, I like to see an accessible JB where I can inspect the connections.

I think the same Andy, can you imagine someone in 2099 pulling a Wago box out the floor and it's still in service 🤔 😳.

Nothing like an ape rambling on about old lead cables.

Knowing my luck the neighbours cat will sh*t in it!

My two favorite (sorry American spelling!) Mancunian sparks not sure Salford counts🤔 love to see a collaboration on job. I have always believed there is something in the water in Manchester, living in the city or whatever that results in this self-effacing, dry wit, humor and intelligence. A collaboration on a job with both of you would be my dream UKposts view. Superb information by the way JB on JBs😎 In US we are not allowed to have junction boxes unless they are accessible and enclosed say on a wall - similar to the blank boxes in the UK. Frankly I like that rule of accessibility it safer in my view and can be looked at. However I need to get the US industry to do more safety testing in residential and commercial settings. It’s more an afterthought here sadly.

Fill it with gel job done 🤫

@@mathman0101 we’d have to split the profits 70/30 to me, you know, speed and quality and all that 😃

@@Cablesmith haha that would still mean JBE would earn more in pounds. I suspect he is premium charges mate🤣

Yes those boxes come with a slotted mounting adapter from what I understand. In the US we have outlets with pushing connectors on the back and in older houses it's quite common to find them without the alternative screw terminals as well. I don't like them I like the screws better. Because every time I pulled one of those out at least one of the wires pops out, so I really don't like the push and style connectors as I think they have a little bit better chance but not much although I suspect they are better designed than the outlets of the 50s?. That being said the newer outlets now list that the push in connectors are only for a certain size wire. However if they're installed this way you're literally putting a possible resistance point between every outlet so if it gets loose the radial circuit can have all sorts of issues. And I have seen scorch marks on the wire to indicate there was some arcing going on. As far as the dissimilar metals most of the outlets use a brass I believe and I have not had any issues with that. as far as the newer connectors I believe that was taken into account, I know the WAGOs somebody did a video on them and I think the Chinese knock off's comparing the material. I think the wiggles (LOL speech to text, WAGOs that's it that's what I'm calling them) are the way to go however I did pick up some ideals to try them out in an assessable location in the service panel.

I agree totally with what your saying . I try and keep joint boxes to a minimum but when they have to be used I always use the screw terminal type . No way would I trust those wagos

Well the yanks love them and think us dangerous for using Wagos ! Both must work otherwise they wouldn't still be here? FYI I have some wire nuts in my shed but I've not had the time to use them in anger yet. Cheers for watching 👍🏻

@@JBE I would love to see some actual science/data on the relative risks of Choc block, round JB, spring lever and wirenut connections. There is plenty of anecdote but not much actual data.

Wirenuts are made by Satan.

I think you're on to a winner with the Wago box. The smaller one for connecting down lights behind plasterboard ceilings is a go-to of mine. Also I think you're right about the twin and earth flat cables working better in the Blue MF boxes.

Who knew a boring old ramble could be slightly more interesting than watching normal TV?

So how is the Ideal Box classed as MF as you can put all types of unsecured connectors in it, yet it is effectively the same as the non-MF Wago lighting box?

Tune in to find out 🤣😉👌

Yes, however, there are a few things to consider. Is the Over current protection device (fuse or breaker) back at the consumer unit, the correct rating for that cable. You shouldn't really have a 32amp fuse or breaker on a radial circuit with a csa of 2.5mm. Make sure the fuse at the consumer unit is a 16 or 20amp breaker. 6mm is ok with a 32amp breaker but not if you're going to size down via a junction box into 2.5mm. Also, are you connecting it to a fused connection unit before the two gang socket?

The further you go back in time with electricity, the less they regarded a decent connection to earth. I guess they could only work with what they had at the time?

@@JBE The lead sheathing will have provided a decent earth connection. Is molten lead, from an overloaded cable, worse than cyanide smoke from PVC:-)

@@JBE The first book I read in my self teaching as a schoolboy back in 1976 was a Newnes publication from 1964 which listed metal pipe and lead sheathed as if they were current practice, twin and earth was still rubber and noted as flammable (as a contrast to noting new fangled Insulated conduits weren't) and showed its sample installation in one of the drawings securely earthed via the main water pipe. The tests for a good earth was test lamp between the live and the water pipe and if the lamp lit the water was good as an earth.

I just lost an argument about twisting the conductors before using the twist on connectors (wirenuts). The manufacturers state that twisting the conductors is unnecessary, though not prohibited. I always did and still do it, but t is not needed, I guess.

@@ianbutler1983 that's interesting I never thought to look at what the manufacturer said. From both experience and assisting an electrician I've come to the conclusion that they need to be twisted unless it's just temporary, I've seen them work loose. I've seen some things on this debate as well like if you twist them you make nicks on the wire which isn't good, but using the right size nut with the right amount of wires I've had them not go in as well so a little twist gets them at the right point for the nut to bite in. I've also seen the nuts not on all the way because the wire didn't get down into the metal spring in the Cone. There's another argument that can be made for push in connectors on the back of outlets, every time I've taken an outlet out the wires have literally pulled out the back of it. And the newer ones list the push-in is only for a certain size wire. Although it's not nearly as bad as the device I found that used the wrong gauge and stranded wire and hey guess what it was having problems.

@@imark7777777 I agree on the push-in connectors. My mom's house was wired like this, but even worse they did not use pigtails, so the entire branch circuit current ran through each push-in on the back of each outlet. Several failed, but never caused a fire or even charring, just intermittent flow. I am amazed they were legal. Like you, when I was removing them several of the conductors just came out of the receptacle when I pulled it from the junction box.

Wago are superb as long as the correct current value is used. They can be used behind a socket in the box to connect the circuit with a 5 inch length of flex to the socket. The Wagos carry the ring's load while the socket is a spur off the ring. Super simple to install and much safer as no scew terminals on the ring to work loose. Use the Wagos for the first and second fix. In first fix use the spring lever Wagos with three ports inside the socket backboxes. Four port Wagos for the earth. Then test the wiring. Then the plasterers and painters do their work. Then on a bench fix flexible 2.5mm cable tails about 5 inches long to the L, N and E of the sockets (could be over 30 of these). Then insert the flexes into the Wagos inside the boxes. The socket being on flexible wire just easily push into position. The time it saves is substantial. Easy as a lot is on a bench. The Wagos also ensure the ring is is always complete, not relying on the screw connections on the back of sockets having two 2.5mm cables run into them. Wago connections do not work loose over time, so the rings is not compromised. Ther are sockets available with Wago connections on the back.

Good point well made. I think the WAGO and it's other variants still have a way to go before any chance of replacing a screwed connection. Although I use them myself in final terminations. I'm very suspicious of a hidden "maintenance free" enclosure made off with the use of WAGOs.

@@JBE I agree there should be no jointing whatsoever in inaccessible places. The problem is incremental home improvement - where an hitherto accessible joint, say under a ground floor floorboard, is then made inaccessible because an expensive engineered wooden or tiled floor is laid. How many would think of lifting all the existing floorboards to look for junctions and rerun circuits to eliminate joints?

I know right! I've seen so many like that. Twisted together with no sleeving or wire nut in sight! 🤣👌.

It was fairly common in the days before 6 terminal JBs, when you had too many connections for the 4 terminals. Pull all the CPCs back out and twist them together without sleeving or even a connector block. Best I saw was a loft light connected to existing singles by stripping the insulation, twisting the new cable over the runs of copper and wrapping in an Elastoplast.

@@frimleyfrodo Haha belter 😆🤟.

Cus they didn’t have any sleeving, it kept the bare wires out the way of harm

Definitely one for the accessible gang.

On a screw connection type you would at least want to access it for inspection. Then if it does need any maintenance like tightening connections you can do so. Cheers 👍.

@@JBE You're up late! Thanks for the answer.

Tighten the screws every 20 years.

Back in the day they were accessible on good installations by being under a floor trap- section of de-tongued floorboard between two joists which could be unscrewed or jemmied up to get to the box. First the beautiful fitted carpets came in and the all the engineered laminated fitted floors and even marble tiles and what chance to we sparks have ow to find that box. There is a punter with a house with beautiful marble timed floors and a kitchen circuit which is a 20A radial going round the log way because the leg back to the CU of the ing was banjaxed - line earth faults and access by jemmying up those tiles was not something the customer wanted But the best thing I found on lifting some boards was a whole set of crimp connections without any enclosure, in the blue crimps which don't always bite well on single core 1.5 and 2.5, all surrounded by dust and shavings. Strangely the customer never could find the paper work from the person who moved and replaced that consumer unit.

@@rowanNClangley Always the case when someone has done a joint then it's not accessible.

I'll say this. There's a reason we don't have consumer units and distribution boards with Wago type connections. I think they're perfect for low wattage connections like a 5 watt led downlight.

@@JBE to a certain degree i would agree , but nowadays most rooms especially kitchens have multiple lights , if the spring type connections are used for individual lights fair enough but even then i would not trust them , but like i said earlier it is down to the individual installer , usually cost

@@JBE ABB actually makes MCBs with spring connections for the outgoing lines, don’t know if they’re approved in the UK. In industry there’s spring connectors for all sorts of things (Phoenix makes them to at least 50mm2). Check out John Ward’s video on Wagos and current overloading, it’s rather impressive.

@@sstorholm Spring tension connections are beginning to come to the UK and be introduced slowly. Yes I remember JW's video showing the physical impact of spring connections under load. Thanks for watching 👍

They're super safe. Used in Germany for decades.

👍

Interestingly the WAGOBOX 221-4 derating from 32A to 20A per connector for MF locations, plus the 50A overall current limit for all conductors using the box are also ‘made up’ numbers because the certification test hasn’t been carried out by a UK entity. Copper doesn’t change its electrical characteristics if it’s under floorboards. In particular this pseudo restriction means a WAGOBOX should not be used to create a spur from a ring final circuit as the 50A limit would be exceeded, even if the ring legs were assumed to be 20A each and the spur could draw 26A. Please advise if I’m looking at this the wrong way.

@@MikeSmith-tx2lp The reason for the lower rating is that the manufacturer can't guarantee the long service performance of the clamps at high currents as thermal cycling could result in movement of the conductors and hence they should be accessible for inspection and maintenance, whereas complying with the MF instructions means that inspection is not necessary. For ring finals I tend to use the standard Wagobox with 773-173 connectors as this allows for a max aggregate current of 64A. There used to be a document that had advice for rings, but that seems to have been withdrawn and I can't recall the official line, but my thoughts are that the two ring legs will only ever present 32A combined rather than the 2x20A you have assumed as the overcurrent device will normally be 32A; if we were to assume that the spur feeds a double 13A socket then that potentially adds 26A so would give an aggregate of 58A which is below the 64A maximum with the 773-173 connectors. That said, the preferred options are to convert the ring into 1 or 2 radials, downrate the ring to 20A or to extend the ring rather than spur off.

@@farmersteve129 Good discussion. Thank you. I’ve gone for the 32A Hager 803 MF JB for this job as I know the spurred sockets are in a bedroom and won’t be used for welding equipment or a laundry 🙂. The ring is wired in 7/029 (which is in excellent condition and passes I.R btw) so I’m hoping the 4mm solid csa limit on the terminals will accept the older stranded cable. If not, I’ll look out for those parts you suggested, thanks!

@@farmersteve129 Thank you for your wago 773-173 recommendations. The Hager J803 did not accept the stranded 7/029 but the wago push fits were spot on. Not entirely clear where the cpc terminal is supposed to go in the WAGObox but I improvised and put it where the 221 5 way normally sits. Jobs a goodun!

*ABB S 200 S* MCBs are screwless. They have a Utube vid on them.

Yes 😆👍

Top quality content coming from the CJR channel and all the others too. I'm a fan of it all. Only wish I had more time to watch them.

@@JBE I miss Luke from My trusted Electrician does anyone know what has happened to his youtube videos?

@@anthonybragg I miss him too 😪. I'm sure he'll be back on one day? I know he's still active on Instagram.

Yes is does. Unless the cable gland is cheap and thus made of soft cheese. Then it will deform it's own threads and not pop out the soft grommet.

correct

Lancashire and the North West.

Well I'll never call it a VAGO that's for sure 🤣👍.

I only wish I knew what you were talking about!!

I might have a go at testing it myself?

I do some residential electrical in the US (Ohio). I used my first WAGO last year just as a lark. Until then, I had never seen anything other than a screw-on connector (commonly called a wirenut, though that is actually a brand name). The only exception was in some houses from the 1920's or earlier where sometimes you will find junctions have been soldered and wrapped in fabric tape, often not even in boxes.

@@ianbutler1983 wow really? You don't still use ceramic wire nuts over there do you?

@@JBE lol....No, they are the PVC with spring steel inserts. It is interesting to see the differences between the UK and the US. I suppose some of it is due to the higher voltages in the UK. The big difference is all the testing I see you do. There is very little of that here. A residential electrician probably would only have a simple voltage probe to prove a circuit dead. We also do not do ring circuits here. Residential circuits are simple cable runs that end at the last fixture or receptacle. The houses are flimsier, the walls are hollow so running cables is very easy. It is also very common for homeowners to do their own wiring here. In most places it is permitted by the local authorities who will inspect the work and approve it. Honestly though, a blind eye it mostly turned to anything less than an entire new home wiring job.

@@JBE we also have special connectors and splice on connecting two different conductive metals like copper and aluminum or aluminum on its own give it has other issues that have to be accounted for that can create problems in conductivity over time. I certainly do all my testing here in the USA and my county inspectors are always impressed when I show them that level of detail. The NEC is somewhat silent on testing (other than insulation resistance testing) and also on power quality issues which will be the next level step up in my view for electricians.

If a strong mechanical connection is deemed good enough within a consumer unit where loads are terminated. Then it's understandable that the same would be good enough at a joint or further connection within the installation.

@@JBE thankyou :)

A tech channel !! Wow I've made it 😂. Cheers for the comments we shall consider it in the future.

Decent content doesn't need background music.

@@westinthewest hence the background music 😂🤟.

Now Eaton.

@@markhardacre1 Pulled the plug on the Memshield 2 range which had become a go to for boards in Industrial and heavier commercial jobs, though at least breakers on strip out jobs have resale value

I could without a shred of doubt beat the designer with stick (until I was unable to lift either arm every again) that changed mem 2 to mem Eaton 3 and changed the MCB sizes, unlike Hager where you can change an MCB/RCBO in may of their DB’s

@@oiuslags Which is why I will be quoting to exchange an EATON3 board which is too small for a HAGER and have consistency in the customers factory unit