Should I not have access to this? It was in your playlist of videos on Boeing incidents

Do they have anyone qualified to help with 'Trump Derangement Syndrome'? 🤔

His followers could certainly use some cult deprogramming.

Why do you keep shelling for the sponsorship. They've been proven in congressional hearings that they sold vulnerable people's data (without user consent) to advertisers and insurance companies. Therapy is fantastic, better help is not. Really disappointing. I get you have staff to pay, but there are more ethical options. Please practice the diligence you preach about in your videos.

@@MattyEngland regrettably most people affected by this do appear to be lost causes....its very sad.

This is a custom in Air France.They had a lot of accidents and crashes caused by pilots giving different inputs simultaneously.

But the French have always been known for being easy to get along with and valuing team work over personal flair, right?..

well no, eventually the captain called "my controls", and upon hearing it the first officer immediately obeyed the callout. so a fair bit more than zero communication, altho certainly quite a lot less than there should have been

@@UnshavenStatue _Eventually_ being the operative word. And after 53 secs. They’re lucky they were still in the air by then. If you consider that communication, it’s good you’re not in charge of CRS training. Anyway, “zero” was meant to be rhetorical. Not literal.

I was waiting for the Captain to take controls as soon as FO started overpitching 😬

Yes, indeed.

LOL! that actually dovetails quite nicely with Alan Shepard's prayer before his first launch (before becoming the first American in space): "Dear Lord, please don't let me f**k up!"

well, to be fair, that's also a sign of human ingenuity... in this case, the ingenuity to get shit hit the fan...

A quote that our politicians decided to take as a challenge!

@@AmbuBadgerAnd they've succeeded!!! And keep succeeding at it.... Should I be impressed?

Wow, that sounds terrifying.

Keep in mind that as a passenger with no view of the horizon and no flight instruments, you are even more susceptible to spatial disorientation than the pilots are. I say this not to minimize your experience, but to reassure you that it probably felt a lot worse than it was.

Did you sue the airline for a new pair of underpants? 😂

Listening to this I was thinking it must have been horrifying in there.

yes with that pitch and a 27 degree roll...@@missequestrian3448

Seems like an appallingly regular occurrence for Air France....

Remember that the emergent part of this flight happened in less than a minute. At that time, the captain was probably trying harder to stabilize the aircraft and forgot about communicating. It was a function of instinct. More training to increase the instinct of communication can surely help.

@@howdan1985exactly my thoughts

Sounds like most marriages

@@JustMe-fo4ev I can imagine a married couple flying a 777: "Flaps 15", "yes dear", "thrust to 50%", "yes dear", "landing gear down", "yes dear", "you're not listening to me, you never listen!" "What, what did you say, what did I miss"? "Everything, you weren't listening, you never listen!". "What's wrong", "nothing", "no, I can tell you're upset", "I'm fine", "no you're not, you're angry", "I'm angry because you never listen"..............BANG!!!.......... 350 die in aviation disaster.

I was also thinking of AF447 when seeing this video.

Thank you for sharing. The AF447 disaster is one that I revisit on a regular basis because it still boggles me that a flight crew could ignore the obvious warnings they were hearing and that a trained pilot could continue to pull the nose up for the entire emergency and not verbalize what he's doing to the other crew member.

Thank you for the reply. I think a lot about AF447 too. As a commercial pilot instructor and check pilot I have had exposure to many responses and situations both in simulation and in the flight deck. One of the biggest weaknesses of humans in the flight deck is that fundamentally we are descended from primates. Our ability rationalise and use logic to resolve threats is what marks us out as a species, but it is highly dependent on retaining emotional control and not responding to the reactions of the autonomic nervous system. In high pressure, threat situations it requires strong discipline and well established training. Even then, our ability to trigger appropriate behaviour can be tremendously challenged by fatigue, very large jumps in alertness levels, startle and shock and capacity overload. It takes courage and cool head to work through a problem rationally when alarms are blaring, lights are flashing and your life is on the line. I believe that in both this case and in AF447, startle was a key element. The ‘chimp’ was let to run riot in the flight deck, and was only caged by cognition of the commander. This is not an inadequacy of the individuals, it is an inadequacy of our species unfortunately. Better exposure in training (in non-jeopardy situations) and flight deck design would mitigate this. Sadly, even with our modern technology, humans are still the best device for resolving a large number of factors on the flight deck. We just need to give them adequate rest. Yes, it’s a cost issue ultimately. A third crew member makes a huge difference to the rest the pilot can take, but costs that bit more

The FTLs is the elephant in the room. Both the AF 446 accident and this incident show a complete abandonment of SOPs which could be due to extreme fatigue. Pilots fly much more hours per year compared to previous generations. The MAX crashes were due to commercial pressure, not science. Are the FTLs based on science or on Industry pressure?

@@VIKINGFLYING this is such a thorny problem. FTLs were originally introduced prior to the efficiencies of modern, computerised, rostering systems. Aviation is inherently very safe, but it’s one of the few industries where we take humans and make them operate safety critical machinery in a fatigued state. I often wonder what would happen if I was stopped by the police driving home. Would they say I was too fatigued to drive? But I’ve just landed a 250T jet. Automation helps: by disconnecting the automation early in this case the FO increased workload in a period when in fact it wasn’t entirely necessary. The aircraft COULD have performed a CAT I autoland. Would I consider that with a 300’ cloud base at the end of an overnight JFK? Absolutely. Would I have flown a manual ILS in poor visibility at the end of that sector? No. At the end of the day, as much as it fun to ‘fly’ the airplane, we are professionals and have a job to do. Would I practice on a clear day? Yes. FTLs are one part of the equation

To be fair, he did after like 50 seconds, which is a pretty short amount of time in reality. It's not like this went on for 20 minutes.

@@David-ud9juTo be fair, 50 seconds is enough time for 200 people to die in a plane.

​@@David-ud9ju while that's true you have to remember this isnt like driving on the road, this is airplanes

@@MrNinjaman63 Just because these people fly airplanes doesn't mean they're superhuman. Things like this is where technology comes into play and maybe a "Dual input" warning could have resolved the issue entirely.

Good. Guy could get someone killed one day trying to fight their controls

a totally non-flight mixup happened in our family when my aunt and uncle were sleeping at her parents' house one night. The controls on the electric blanket got switched, and the inevitable happened. He gets hot and turns his control down. She gets cold and turns her control up. Feedback loop ensues....

That's what I was taught as well.

Christ, I can understand his vigilance keeping the altitude, but making flight control inputs without voicing them is just asking for an accident.

You absolutely need to tell that story. Constantly. He should get others asking him about it

That's the goal. Education. Thanks for being here and I hope you are doing ok Sir.

Sorry to hear about the cancer diagnosis. Hope it’s treatable and you’re doing ok. Grew up at an airfield with a few glider pilots and always amazed at their skill and how long and far they could fly.

I have a supposed terminal cancer which I was given a year for-almost twelve years ago now. Hope you do well, and find another aviation outlet-drones perhaps? Can one not fly GA once tx is over and remission achieved?

I don't know if you are religious, but I am praying for your health, for wisdom and compassion in the hearts of your medical care providers, and strength in the hearts of your loved ones as they support you.

hope you get well soon

Outstanding my friend!

@@screw_it_why_not What exactly is he doing by supporting better help? What makes you think your political beliefs should guide other people's actions? What does Petter preach which promoting "Better help" goes against?

​@@OddityDKwat

@@OddityDK. Looks like the comment is gone. But thanks for saying something about people bringing up politics where it doesn’t belong. It’s so annoying. So thank you .

Is it just me or is Air France overrepresented when it comes to incidents and accidents?

they do seem to have a lot of communication issues between pilots in the cockpit @@marydecouvertes3789

@@marydecouvertes3789 : Air France definitely seems to have an aircrew training and communication problem. Avoid that “airline” if at all possible.

@@samy7013 Just took a look at the statistics and found out the two companies with the highest amount of deadly crashes are Air France and American Airlines. Would be interesting to know which company has the highest number of reported incidents.

@@marydecouvertes3789This is out of Western Airlines tho Air France is a very safe Airline if you compare it with actual unsafe airlines from 3rd world countries

Yes! And actually put in a nice to look at manner.

YT caption examples: the Gobi desert in Africa 🏜️ ; image of sushi 🫔; a Granny Smith apple 🫑

​@@chateaumojogranny smith is the best

Indeed, I only ever watch these particular vids with the audio muted.

Yes, that is some great subtitles editing. However there are a few words in many episodes apparently put there in error, however sounding the same like the intended word (there must be a term for such same-sounding words), which makes me think it is a person listening to the audio and writing the script down instead of the actual script directly adapted for subs. I believe that's the only way to make that kind of mistake.

@@K1OIK Merchandise. For example T-shirts, mugs, caps etc.

"My Control! said a passenger who has successfully forced his way into the cockpit ...

It might become popular among college professors.

How about: "TERRAIN!! PULL UP, PULL UP!!"

I'd buy that in an instant if that became available :D

@@pinnacle1717 with all due respect, please shut up.

Me to!

@@MentourPilottoo* ;)

Absolutely, especially if the roles changes

I was mentally screaming for the pilot to say "my controls" all the way through the video. Better late than never.

@@uclajd I was very surprised the captain took so long to take over.

Your control

asPetter sais, it happend is a vcery short time, so the question is; how fast can You reaxt on what is happening and call out?

The map is not the territory.

The metric is not the goal.

I'm also in the EMS and I was thought it the same and I thought it the same way. But I changed this. The monitor can be right. In the beginning of covid I've seen my first patient with SpO2 below 80% that showed us no sign of shortness of breath so I assumed that the monitor was wrong. In the Hospital a blood gas analysis was made as a standard procedure. That showed a massive lack of O2. I was wo damm sure the monitor musst be wrong, but it was right. Since these times we changed the education that of course the patient hat priority. But if the monitor shows something pathologic, it can be true also.

You should also question your perception of "your patient's condition". Physicians and nurses do.

@what8562 I don't quite understand what you mean.

Haha! Sorry about that

@@MentourPilot No worries, your videos make me feel safer when flying :)

Just make sure to force your way into the cockpit to warn them about this. I am guessing this will be well received.

I used to watch air crash investigation videos while flying long haul 😂

And probably on… A Boeing!😳Lol I can do the exact same by watching incident videos then jumping onboard! I just love flying!

@@K1OIK CRM in aviation is Crew Resource Management, which is just fancy speaking to taliking to each other. Both pilot and first officers should have been more clear as to what was happening and what they where doing, instead of just trying to fix it on their own.

@@K1OIK he probably used it to memorize the CRM acronym... in aviation we LOVE acronyms, there are hundreds, and all sound the same.

I agree. I wasn’t sure if they were going to make it through this. I was relieved to hear when the captain took control.

Same here 😊

Yeah it's a relief.

My favourite line as well...

I’m happy to hear that!

Yes! keep it nerdy!

@@MentourPilotYes, I like it nerdy. I suppose a lot of us who watch your videos are nerds. The problem I see us the automation can't ever match what human mind may conceive - in other words, I understood your schematics. Well done.

Good for you! Far too many people don't want to learn the details and don't recognize the difference between knowledge and understanding. They read a news article about an event and get the knowledge about what happened. To do an analysis or to apply that knowledge to another event requires knowledge of the underlying phenomena and the rules of interaction between those phenomena, which is only obtained by substantial education in the subject. Trouble starts when, lacking that education, people use common sense to analyze that complex subject, the result typically being a flawed understanding and analysis. As the saying goes, "Little knowledge is a dangerous thing." A recent example was when the news media attempted to analyze the 737 MAX crashes and found out that initial flight tests had revealed that MCAS needed to operate at low airspeeds too, and Boeing had changed the programming so the computer would operate the stab trim motor at high RPM instead of low. Now, using common sense, most people would say that a system becomes more powerful if it is operated at high speed vs. low speed, and so the media accused Boeing of making MCAS much more powerful, too powerful for the pilots to handle. If they had an education in aerodynamics, they would have realized that the aerodynamic force varies directly with the square of the airspeed, so at low airspeed-lets say 1/2 the high airspeed-the aerodynamic force produced would be 1/4 the force produced at high speed. However the weight and inertia of the airplane hasn't changed, so, to compensate, the deflection of the stabilizer had to increase substantially, and that was achieved by speeding up the drive motor-to produce the SAME force as before. Many people learn this characteristic from looking at the ailerons on the wings move up/down to roll the airplane right/left, and noticing that they deflect much more at the low airspeeds during takeoff and on approach to land compared to the high airspeed during cruise. In fact, on larger airplanes with outboard and inboard ailerons, the outboard ailerons are locked out above a certain airspeed-otherwise they could cause dangerously high structural loads if they deflected abruptly-and only become active again when the airplane slows to approach speeds.

+1 definitely

@@K1OIK Night vision goggles.

I'm a nurse and an airplane geek. In general I think the healthcare sector still has a lot to learn from aviation, but it's changing for better. As from my experience, millenials and so on are much more prone to embrace the just culture and the authority gradient in nursing teams tends to be quite shallow. However I noticed, as you said, that between medical staff the deference to authority it's still quite pronounced. It's unfortunate, healthcare sector is stressful in itself, and that kind of relationship behaviour only exacerbate that (and can be potentially unsafe, of course). (English is not my first language, please have mercy)

I don't think it was deference that caused the communication chasm, if anything it was ego. There seemed to be a lot of passive aggressiveness going on. If they can't even ask the other one 'are you pulling back/pushing forward' when it is the most obvious thing to ask, it shows that there is some kind of ego/superiority thing going on.

my thoughts exactly, does `grow a pair` cover it?

@@stevec-b6214 No, it doesn't

Listing to the ATC-tape, you can hear both groaning from strain. This is one of the disadvantages of this being a Boeing. It's kind of hard to talk, if you use all your physical strength to fight a perceived flight control issue.

Reminds me of the Air France Atlantic crash in 2009

I think Petr said 53secs. Not really that long!!

I'll be happy to do the Communicate portion, "Hallo ATC, my plane acts kinda weird! I think my mechanic forgot to topup the blinker fluid! Do you have any suggestion? Should I declare mayday?"

I guess here with all the detail when we play it back it feels like a long time until he said "my controls" but in reality it was less than a minute? It can often take me far longer than a minute to realise I am making my own problems worse!

​@@premchain A minute is almost an eternity when flying. Or just driving a car. It's more than enough time to destroy lives.

Of course 900 and 1800 MHz are still used! 2G is used more than you think!

Engineer creates a robot bartender. QA Tester walks into the bar and orders a drink. Then two drinks. Then five, zero, and minus one drinks. Robot gives all the appropriate responses. QA tester declares the robot bartender ready for production. Customer walks into the bar and asks where the bathroom is. The robot explodes. Situations that were not anticipated will always happen. They must be investigated and mitigations or fixes implemented before they can become problems.

Also, some potential solutions introduce new hardware which introduces new risks of failure, which you might be tempted to try to fix with more hardware, lights, training, what? Making a complex system more complex can't really make it safer.

Air France will reliably create such testing results for the designers.

@@CiaranMaxwellThis is exactly what the hacking world is all about. Few things are as fun as using someone’s security tools against them. One of the hardest things to detect is someone using a legitimate tool in an illegitimate way. I kinda envy the way airlines share data with each other and the manufacturers. The tech world has some sharing, but there is still too much ass cover that goes on. Most people are afraid to admit when they’ve screwed something up, especially when management doesn’t use it as a learning opportunity.

It is always easier to investigate near misses than actual catastrophes because people survive near misses to tell you about them. But you are right that a near accident warrants the same sort of investigation as an actual one.

Exacerbated by fatigue, no doubt. 2-man overnight long-haul flights should not be allowed.

@@EvoraGT430 certainly, fatigue can cause all kinds of strange cognitive hiccups, like getting stressed up for no reason and drawing weird conclusions one wouldn't make when well-rested ("something feels off, could it be 5G interference??")

The prejudiced mind is easily led astray.

It would have been helpful if Petter had run through the application of PIOSEE as a practical example, because the root cause-the ghost in the head: 5G interference-would not be easy to identify as "no problem to solve" as such could not be ascertained while on final approach and without a proper understanding of the nature of 5G interference. Alternatively, "dual input" was a problem that DID need to be solved, but how does one identify it as the problem when one isn't expecting the pilot monitoring to be interfering with control without communicating? Speaking up and saying something like "I don't understand why it's so difficult to pitch up!" may have made the PM realize that the PF was trying to pitch up while he was trying to pitch down. A lack of trust by both of them caused each to do the other's job, neglect their own and make an embarrassing pudding of the flight. Dangerous too.

@@petep.2092 to me, the first ghost in the head seemed to be "the plane is veering off course", then "I have a flight control problem", which then lead to the conclusion "it must be 5G interference" and "must do a go-around", which then lead to the dual inputs. If the problem had been identified as "something feels off with the controls", it could have been identified as "actually, nevermind" pretty quickly. But jumping into conclusions and then actions without further consideration just made a non-issue into an actual problem. Granted, like you point out, there isn't much time to start problem-solving while on final approach, and if there was an actual flight control problem, a go-around would have been the correct response. Still, jumping straight to action without stopping for any kind of decision-making process was the critical issue here.

Glad you like them! We try our best!

Proper procedure is for the pilot monitoring to call out the pitch and roll deviations. The pilot flying should call, "correcting." If the pilot flying does not correct, THEN the pilot monitoring verbally and physically takes control. The captain should not have been "helping" on the controls at anytime.

They always do, the point of air crash investigations are to make things safer, sure, but another often overlooked reason is to convince people that flying is safe, propaganda-like.

Captain should have taken control long before he did!

Sometimes I'm imagining, Petter telling an aviation story in great details, with "everything is normal in the beginning.. ", in the correct sequences, very carefully, for about 30 minutes, or even 40 minutes is OK, I love his story-telling . . . , FDC was intact, CVR was preserved. With a conclusion : ".. for you that have not realized, this is a normal flight, no incident, no accident, no drama, nada ... "

I'd love a story like that 😁 Don't forget the "Please remember this detail, it will become very important later .." And the perfect technical explanations of a flight control system ".. for you to fully grasp the things going on.." I love his technical explanations, I am a heavy equipment mechanic.

😁

Yes. We're looking at H&S, and that's a big thing - near misses.

Yes, indeed. A reaaly good example!

The ego comes into play. The french especially can have very big ones as well.

A lot of astronaut biographies talk about how when they became astronauts they felt really uncomfortable at first questioning the senior astronauts if they thought they made a mistake. They do a lot of flying in trainer aircraft and on simulators. Chris Hadfield said he makes sure he gets the younger astronauts to find out stuff he did suboptimally so that it creates an atmosphere for learning, instead of him just instructing. Because he said he made a major error in one demonstration but saved it and he realised that none of the watching astronauts had called him out for it, or maybe even understood that he had made a critical error.

@@bilgzmcr7035 : Bingo! You nailed it, 100%.

I guess that if the video had a real-time reconstruction, you would be surprised at the pace at which these events occur. At one moment the CPT has his hand lightly on the yoke, and in a blink of an eye they are very near an actual disaster.

There was no lack of communication. Petter explains the timeframe was only a minute before the captain got things normal again. Luckily both pilots communicated again and realized they both would be subject to an investigation.

@@Dirk-van-den-Berg60 seconds is a lot of time to not use five of those to say “my controls”

Even Sully and Skiles needed about half a minute to oversee what happened and to take appopriate action. @@DeltaEntropy

Well here’s the thing, the yokes are mechanically linked and on airbus, the flight sticks are not, so all you really have to do is threshold the sidesticks and see if they are different in a airbus, whereas in a Boeing, it’s a little more different since the yokes can’t be different

A notification stating control breakout sounds like a good idea, but I am no pilot.

He said why in the video, dumdum. That's not suppose to be possible in normal flight

Tbf, he’s got several videos where that output exists and is ignored.

@@samsonsoturian6013not sure the use of ‘dum dum’ is necessary to get your point across.

I agree

I’ll remember that. 😉👍

God bless you for the truth will lead to an increase in safety care which will benefit the travellers and the service providers.

AGREED.

Thank you!!

Great comment.

@@MentourPilotNo thank you for making great content for us

I do a lot (a lot) of flying for work as a passenger, and stumbled across this channel years ago. People in the seat next to me have asked me, "how the hell do you know all this stuff?!" Thank you MP!

Agreed. There is one apparent "armchair pilot" with a loud voice in another channel who always seems to blame pilots for everything. Meanwhile, Mentour Pilot's channel is the only one I find that treats everything and everyone with detailed and objective analysis.

Are we sure ?

Toga in my mother tongue means producing smoke. I am imagining that in a bank 🙂

TO/GA (the buttons to tell the flight guidance computers to initiate “guidance” for take off or go arround) plus an immediate turn may very well be possible. Either procedural, upon ATC instructions or for ex. thunderstorm/hail avoidance.

@@innocentanderson2830 what language is that?

@@innocentanderson2830In my mother tongue, TOGA means a gorgeous, flowing white robe of office. One of best friends, sadly, was stabbed to death while wearing one.

​@@The_ZeroLine Et tu, Brute?

oh for sure man. your spreadsheet situation was totally the same. really this video should have been about you. i mean, basically it was.

They haven’t had a single fatal accident since Flight 447 lol in fact the only accident that has happened in Europe in the last 10 years is Germanwings I’m pretty sure which we all know wasn’t even an accident but a massive criminal act

@@Eruma_27 True but it's worse than many other carriers I can think of. Here are a few I can think of. 2005 AFR358 A340-300 overran the runway and the airplane burned out (pilot error) 2009 AFR447 A330 Crash into the Atlantic (pilot error) 2022 AFR011 777 Pilots fighting over the control of the airplane (pilot error) 2024 AFR356 A350 Tailstrike at Toronto (pilot error)

​@@Kaipeternicolas try Boeing and tell us... If you Can

Not quite.. it’s way stranger

i havent watched the video yet

it was more like a tom and jerry skit where both pilots were inadvertently causing the problems that the other pilot perceived with the controls while thinking that they were helping each other with said problem

The method of recording that's in your pocket is not capable of keeping the data intact while crashing into the ground though

Because you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. First space is limited by quadruple redundancies and because these aren't the most sensitive chips because they're made to be indestructible. And more importantly, they're recording a lot more stuff than stupid music.

So by your logic I can launch your device into the ground at 500 knots sustatining well over 1000G’s, spend 30+ days underwater and survive a 1000 degree fire for 30 minutes

Yes, if the enclosure that is now used can protect a magnetic tape from what you describe it can certainly protect an SSD.@@tomstravels520

There still could be a secondary means of recording ALL data that's available, even if that secondary means may not survive all accidents.

And me!!

And bogles the mind of those of us who are NOT nerds by nature. Had to watch three times to get it! Bravo!@@MentourPilot

What 😂

Ya

and sad b*****ds like me

Pretty much every video leaves me thinking similar about someone or some people it other in these stories!

I feel that comment to my core. 😂

👍

What dummy changed this?! ... ...Oh.

@@glarynth "Huh. This is nonsensical. Let's see, when was this changed, so I can figure out the intention here? ... Oh. It was like this from the point it was first checked in, quite a while ago. Checked in by who? Oops. And now how do I figure out what it should be?"

Even worse is when you change something to test a hypothesis about the problem, it breaks in a new way as you expect, then you revert the change only to find the original problem no longer occurs. That's a recipe for paranoia right there.

@@K1OIK First Officer - Captain - Pilot Flying.

PM?

@@drive-channel1834 Pilot Monitoring. In a two person cabin one will be the PO and one the PM at any given time - the point of this video is that it needs to be clear who is which at all times. "Captain" and "First Officer" are permanent ranks, while PO and PM are temporary roles - most of the time the Captain will be the PF but by no means always and it is often swapped mid flight.

@@K1OIK A typo. I meant PF.

​@@K1OIK🤣🤣🤣🤣

Its been a time since viewing this clip, look at it in its entirety. Comments were made no communication between the pilots, one or the other need to take charge.

So as the clip goes on, it appears both pilots were engaging dual input, so would not the system cancel each input out. No there would be no functionality in reference to flight. So you lose all your fail safes that were integrated in system.