BREAKING NEWS!!!! Tom is going to play the new high elves because they turned out to be good. Nobody: *shocked*

Hearing the words "Maws of Jork" makes me smile every time.

The answer to your garrison question is already covered by the core rules. You can’t garrison a building if there are enemy units within 3” of the terrain, so if there is an enemy underneath it then it cannot be garrisoned. Furthermore you treat a garrisoned terrain feature as the model(s) garrisoning it, so you cannot move within 3” of the shrine while it is occupied. So the only way a model is getting underneath is when it is empty, o you charge it.

Funny how quickly after your NPE video, they made NPE the army.

"I get to play with my toys, you dont get to play with your toys." And thus Tom made manifest the reason i hate blue. #RedLife

I know it wasn't the main aim of the show, but I appreciated you discussing Cursed City's warscrolls. Both my friend and myself each got a box to start a Soulblight Gravelords army and when we got an early preview of the warscrolls we were both quite underwhelmed. I appreciate you offhandedly assuaging our fears with the mini discussion that the warscrolls are probably going to be chucked or erratad when the Soulblight Gravelords army book drops. Love the show, keep up the great discussions and content.

The show is better than ever this year. All these presentations are fantastic and timestamps are super useful when I'm in a rush. 👍

The biggest crime this army commits is being misery to play against. Even if an army is powerful, everyone should be having fun around the table. But like you said, even when Lumineth lose, opponents will have had a bad time. It's like someone actively tried to create the most NPE faction possible.

Great show! How did the phrase Distraction CarniFox not appear? You were so close.

Win Chargers - theres no ‘d’ because they gave it to you. Can we pause for a moment and acknowledge the epic joke vince dropped 😆

I feel we are but a few episodes away from the mask finally falling and the dogs revealing themselves to be the true hosts of the show all along

Great Video Vince as always mate. Look forward to watching the narrative portion next week, actuallly havethe day off so can catch it live.

Thanks for the discourse about Lumineth and the concept of a blue faction. Great listening whilst attempting to put into practice theory and techniques in airbrushing. White ink is great for a zenithal. Thank you for sharing that knowledge with us so long ago.

Very insightful show gentlemen, thanks for elucidating the issues with this army that many of us had felt. Top notch work as always.

This book doesn't just flirt with NPE: It storms into the room and just has it's way with it without any sort of consent! I feel a bit sorry for the people who like the sculpts though. I actually quit playing my FEC after it turned out it was no fun to play against and therefor no fun to play myself.

Love the new format of this videos. Time stamps are amazing. Thanks guys!

Great show as always.. Would have been nice with some drawings of the pile in stuff you can do with Hurakan units. A bit hard to understand just talking about it.

Also, I just realized why the twins have the forced teleport, like Martin said the brother gets carried away and starts to loose his shit in combat so the sister is constantly pulling him out of combat to keep him calm and under control, it’s a ability directly linked to back story

I’m so happy with the Wind temple, I’ve been a sucker for the “elemental warriors” trope since I was a kid, I already have an all Elemental list blue printed out that will be fun to play with and against, no NPE against me

Thanks for a fun show as always. The Lrl battletlome is like it s own edition of aos. It does not play with the same core rules. This makes it difficult to play with but even more to play against

I would like to have a conversation about Lumineth as allies (even just for SCE). Also, you can make some interesting things with Twins in any Order Army - things like casting the Rune of Petryfication after the teleport etc.

The only thing I'm disappointed about this video is Vince not immediately cracking into Total Eclipse of the Heart lyrics as soon as the first two words were uttered. on the other hand, the continued references back to the Slaanesh book makes me happy in my heart

As someone who played 40k in 3rd edition, I remember thinking the same whenever I fielded my 3 basilisks. That fox spirit is ridiculous 😂

So, I came up with the Sin-bin rhyme on Rob's show. However, its was originally created for classifying tiers of competitive power that fall outside of the acceptable range (ie. win rates of 40% or lower/60% or higher). I didn't intend it to be a framing device for discussing the quality of Tomes, or the characteristics of writers, and I don't think it really fits that purpose well. I think it's better a fun description of win rate tiers.

Before starting the video: holy shit guys 3 and a half hours?

21:46 Going back in GWs History when they launched the Genestealer Cult Board Game they did the exact same thing. Both the Space Marines and the GSC were lumped together into a single Formation bundle at like 640 points, so like you had to take the 2 model unit of Genestealers etc.

Kinda bummed Lumineth didn’t get mount traits. I think they really need them to get them on par with other factions. 😂🤣

Pls make Tom go for that job. He would be great for it!

It’s interesting that my favorite deck in magic was a blue control deck and Lumineth is the first AoS army that has really clicked with me

Great show! Nice to see Martin on LRL show! Really like his thoughts on this army, seen his appearance on Meph's show as well. His army looks great! If I was a better player (and painter), I'd consider building LRL army. Currently SBG's are better in terms of aesthetics, at least for me, so I'll see how their rules shape out to be and probably decide to build vamp force (as long as they have vamps on foot as a unit). I know this is not a place for this, but I would like to see some sort of "Dark mist" allegiance ability/spell that would read: substract 6 inches from enemy ranged weapons, in addition if enemy unit is less than 6 inches from a unit with SBG keyword, substract 1 from that units bravery.

No chance Tom actually paints 2000 points of LRL before the next LRL tome comes out! Next week he'll be back to playing MTG :)

I love the new LRL Models, but I hate their rules. So I'll just get the Lord on Zebra-Ram-Horse-Lynx for my Cities of Sigmar. Btw I really love that CoS has so much variety (I for one seldom play one army constantly, it bores me, so I love CoS for the variety without having to buy another entire army) :)

You should continue to bring doggo in regularly, because it is genuinely a good reminder for me to hit the like button!

The vampire bat hair lady conundrum is the equivalent to the DOKs Slaughter Queen and Hag Queen situation. You can use the masked 80s hair lady from the Cauldron kit or Morgwaeth from Underworlds. I means he even comes with unit commanders for almost all your DoK infantry. Then there's the price I mean it's almost 3 for 1 with the Crimson Court vs the Vampire Lady!

Not a dog person but liking the video because Lumineth is super over my head so good chance to learn about them. Hurakan Windmage's spell has the same issue as Bloab: the spell only does damage in a different phase under other circumstances, and therefore has another chance of failing even after being successfully cast. To me I would never choose that spell over one that just....does the damage when cast, or does something actually impactful (buff or debuff)

I think if they made the Cursed City interesting as you said Vince honestly the same issue would arise as the issue you mentioned if they made then powerful. They don't want to lock interesting choices for AOS in a specialist box set. At least I hope that is their reasoning.

You got me with Blue Deck Wins. I’m budgeting this as my next army as I type this! Vince, can I get a link to that “How to lose friends and alienate people” list you made?

Great show 👍 look up the video game ‘Order 1886’ and tell me that’s not Azyr right there! I still think LRL are massively op right now, because they are so adaptable in every area, but new edition may see balance across the board. Also, I need all the vampire tastiness!

Sevireth seems like the obvious choice for the hurikan temple since he'll project a second aura. Edit: also those windchargers hit literally twice as hard as spider riders, and only do 2 damage less than fully buffed spiders (including command reroll). 30 points makes a world of difference i guess

Witch Hunters duo, on top of Cursed City, on top of Vampires on top of Lumineth .... So happy with AoS stuff lately.

Played against new LRL the other day and it was super strong. I agree with Vince about it being in the top 6 but I would say definitely in the top 6. What are we saying is in the mix? IDK, Tzeentch, DOK, Seraphon, LRL, Either KO or NurgleBlightking spam?

3:02:10 - listening to Vince say this made the whole LRL release worthwhile

Hi Vince, what do yo do for work agian? I heard you make reference to quality/LEAN and process development and was interested as I do similar. You can leave out details as I understand. thank you!

My blue deck experience: Oh, so I can't use my own mana and when I do you just counter my spell. Fun. Nice.

LRL opponents are going to need to know the army because the actual players will get confused. Unfortunately, there are so many LRL rules that you just can't trust the person running then to accurately know all of them. It's not that they will cheat, but rules will be confused and wrongly applied.

Hobby time! Hobby time! Party on! Excellent!

I’m so stoked on this book. Damn Desert Wind. It’s a gateway drug.

I'm betting on Painbringers. Going with 30 of them! I just love the models so much lol

The Rend 4 narritive event doesn't allow for named characters to be in your list unless it's gotten in a draft. The rules for the event makes me wonder what's going to happen with the LRL since the narrative hero you make copies a warscroll that isn't a named hero but could they take the loreseeker and then take a loreseeker so there is two of them out there?

Love your vids, as always

Vince do you think LRL will cause issues in tournaments with the amount of things they can do? As in, they’ll eat up way more time than certain other armies just due to the amount of moving parts they’ll have?

My wife and I actually much prefer bat hair lady over any of the warband. But to each their own.

GW just really need to do something to actually make sure the different battletomes are being written at all in the same hemisphere of strength and rules writing. I feel more and more often a new army is either over or underpowered, even if they're released at the same time. This has been happening since like the Ogres and Obr releases

Must hit like for the doggo! Great show guys

Great show, but a shame you didnt get to talk lists:) I know you sound all narrative with your one of everything lists Tom, but consider joining the dark side again. Lumineth have Deepkin as allies. And Deepkin have some really awesome nets on their sharks. A Hurakan list with lots shooting and sharks can take out all the opponents squeashy things with shooting and then tag their hammers for several turns. If the opponent out drops you, then they face a potential double turn from a shooty army. I also think blade masters have a decent role as horde killers. While the attacks are annoying to count, even 5 bladelords can take on a 30 man unit on 25mms if positioned right. In shooty lists that are good at taking out heroes and elites, I think they will slot in nicely to deal with those kind of horde units. If we keep being able to stack -1 to hit, an army with Avelenor, Sevireth, ballistas, shining companies and Geminids seem reaaally annoying. There are truly many avenues. But enough theory hammer I’ll go back to painting my new Gitz battle force.

35:06 Tournament on the East Coast? I just paused and signed up for that!

it is now that time of the week were vince crushes my theories (my group and i know him as dreamsmasher), when looking at the cursed cities warscrolls, it occurred to me (just after cleaning the vomit from the floor), ulfenkarn is going to be the inquisition (40k) style army, in the form of a city (in belakor or kragnos). none have the order of azyr (unless i missed it) keyword, but they all have the ulfenkarn keyword, as well as a denizen or ulfenkarn rules entry (which restates COS keyword rules for cities, again, by another name), i'm sure i could be seeing something that isn't there or maybe they'll be in destruction (vince), but hear me out. the inquisition more resembles a posses then a rank and file army (there may not be enough there for an entire faction), given the state of the cursed city, ulfenkarn could be employing a new style of army formation and warfare, more of a guerilla style, where the heroes lead from the front. i think ulfenkarn's cities allegiance rules will allow ulfenkarn heroes, with the denizens of ulfenkarn rule on their warscroll to join units (something like commissars joining guard units). their stats, rules, and special rules are all underwhelming when thought of in the context of the way we know heroes in AOS (they all stink), but if they're inside a unit, not so much. their underwhelming stats aren't so bad if they can be a 25 wound hero (they'll be the last model removed from a unit), the small bubbles for their special rules and abilities aren't as bad if within a unit (captain emelda's shinning exemplar rule is much more manageable and valuable inside a big block of greatswords, compared to beside them, especially if she is keeping her own wounds from running away, it'll also protect them from shooting (a better form of look out sir, they'll be in the unit) and spell sniping. all units in the COS will be available, they'll get the ulfenkarn keyword (if they don't have another), but won't have the denizens of ulfenkarn rule (they can't join units). they do have the hero keyword, but i think they're something closer to a unique sergeant (or at least have that option).

If bladelords did indeed lose sun metal weapons like Vince suggests then that should have been a clear sign to go back an rework their attack profile. Would have liked to have seen these guys be like Hearthguard but you know... balanced XD

why did autoplay make me end up HERE after falling asleep to Jenny Nicholson? :D

Vampire-bat-hair-lady is perfect for a final fantasy dragoon mini conversion tho...

Knew Martin would be here the second I saw the title.

my theory is that they gave them 3 meele range and -2 rend on their meele bows so they can accidentally kill something and break the 2.9 lock

I just played my first game of AoS 3 against Lumineth and it was a depressing experience. I asked my opponent if he had played against his own army and he said “No and I wouldn’t want to”.

I'm just finishing watching the show and suddenly GW shows the new Kroak. The first thing I thought was: I can't wait to see Vincent Venturella's reaction in the next episode. :D P.S. I am a Seraphon player, but I don't play Kroak, or rather, I didn't play, because with this new sumptuous model ...

Good coverage. I think the book, regardless of power represents a fundamental problem in rules design. It creates a lot of denial to the opponents game, and not in a manner that allows inter-play, just hard denial. Also as Tom said it is written such that power fixes are largely not going to be via points due to the number of rules breaking and layering of abilities. Finally and more worryingly I think it shows that the designers aren't cognizant of the limits of their system, and design process, and how it really doesn't support a denial/control play style in an interactive manner. That is not positive for anyone, opponents or players. ASOIF are in the process of a rules rewrite that is tweaking the control aspects, turning you cannot do x, to you can do x but ..., something the system supports and so far looks very positive as it is adding gameplay and interactions. Don't mean to be negative, as there are a lot of cool ideas/concepts in the army, but this will be a prime example of what the game developer will need to look at and address

At the end of your turn I'll use an aether quartz to steal all your victory points. Sounds about right.

1:22:30 Put the Starshard Ballista underneath the terrain :-p

LRL: "I'm not playing AoS, and neither are you." Glad everyone at my LGS also thinks they're ugly.

Ma mère, quand j'étais plus jeune, me prenait sur ses épaules et disait " Ménon Ménon Ménon " la je sais d'où ça vient :)

Where are they getting 121" from for the Spirit of the Wind?

Great vid! Playing against lumineth is going to be painful

Great review, I was in doubt about this army, but the realization it is a “blue deck” really not my cup of tea! Bleh, I want green stomp...

Will never make the puppers sad. Take all my likes haha

1:16:34 The first game I played against William Page, he had a unit of 6 Skullcrushers charge into my Wardens, they popped Aetherquartz for +1 Save and the Cathallar passed the Neg 1 Bravery to them, he killed a bunch, then my Cathallar made him test for Battleshock at like -8 plus Voice of the Mountains was still on and they all ran away :-p. He didn't like this.

While there is definitely NPE in this army I don't think it's *as* bad as some people are saying. The combination of abilities requiring models to be within certain range of each other to trigger, command point costs in places (double Syar Aehterquartz is a CP), etc. AND the costs of models and units AND the requirements to actually have bodies on the board limiting your builds means that you're unlikely to see all of these different forms of NPE all at once. If the stars align: [list of 20 NPE things the army can do]. Which means it's your job as the opponent to prevent the stars aligning. Then suddenly these tricksy Hurakan units are 10 wounds of a 5+ save. Deal 5-10 damage. How do they shift your 30 Marauders off an objective? They have to rely on not letting you get there in the first place but your army has tricks too. Teleports, screens of your own, magic, shooting, summoning, pile ins, etc. Also, aside: what army would you consider a white/blue self healing, counterspelling deck?

I'm here for more dogs. I'll show you my dog if you show me yours.

One thing I wish y’all would do is talk about the lists you’ve made in a bit more detail. Maybe pick one each or something?

Lumineth just seems like a faction that is just incredibly unfun to play against. They're literally the "No, you can't do that, fuck you" army.

Well, at the end, you all looked like I do after having a match with my LRL : ). Twins are really fun to play with.

just woke up from a 3 hour nap to this. WTF.

You forgot that the ballista is the most likely to be in a SCE army lol

Lumineth power up with the turns because they are solar powered and have spent longer charging up 😝

For the loreseeker couldn't they just say that being he a lone agent you can't include more than one in your army?

I like vampire bat hair lady more than some of the underworlds vamps

What's the point in playing if you don't want your opponent to do anything? Make yourself an "i won" medal and save yourself a few hundred quidders.

I want to trade my realm shaper engine for the lumineth terrain price. At least it can be used for something. Free command points.. omg.

Wait, 1:50ish and you refer to the other moon is the trickster moon. And lumineth are the blue control army... What the hell is the trickster army gonna do?!

Personally, I'm hoping the order of azyr folks will be part of cities instead of stormcast. I just don't get the goofy pilgrim hats and pistol stuff

He's a Wind Spirit in the shape of a Fox! Why shouldn't he be frustrating?

Last time a book was made this powerful by GW was 40k eldar 7th edition, it ruined 7th edition.

👍🏻👍🏻

really hoping order of azyr gets some gargoyles

I know GW has hurt you vince they hurt all of us at least once. Come brother, we must carry on togeather and put our hopes in new skaven sculpts, that have yet to be confirmed, or in any way teased. Let us hope broken realms refresh the vermious legion.

The new LRL rules are the last straw for me when it comes to playing AoS, and I'm planning to take a break from the game after NZ Masters. There's just so much NPE and rules bloat packed into this army. It's not good for the health of the game, regardless of whether or not it's going to be Seraphon-tier busted.

I've commented on the negative paradigm ascribed to Lumineth and how I think it's amplified by content creators before; and to be clear this post isn't meant as a diatribe, but I can't help but speak my mind once again. I'm just REALLY bummed out. Every time I look on social media there's more and more negativity in the hobby. I get you guys live by the mantra of "we're just calling it as we see it" and it's refreshing you haven't censored that ideology but when you pull up a scroll and immediately point out everything that's wrong with it (in your eyes) people gravitate only on that and it's added to the list of things to moan about. You said it yourself (and I do appreciate it) that the army plays on a knife edge and is expensive. That's a notable downside. If you design an army that only does tricksy things; Windrider battalion shell comes to mind, sooner or later in a tournament you're going to get run over by an army that just deals with it. I think the problem (and as stated in previous posts I've been with you since AoS came out so please don't take this the wrong way) is saying that a sub 50% winrate army; with an albeit high skill cap that I'm sure skews the numbers to some degree, is inherently a bad experience to play against. If they won every game I'd agree there's a problem but they don't. They play the game fundamentally differently; a blue deck, sure, but I don't think that's a bad thing. There's nothing I love better than when I beating a control deck with a midrange deck. It's very difficult but incredibly satisfying to do and with a 50% WR in the case of Lumineth it's not even a fair comparison of difficulty. So I guess my point is yes, call it as you see it, but it may be prudent to point out that we don't HAVE to look at this army through a negative lens and instead look at it as a unique challenge that you need to be ready for in whatever capacity you can. The double turn can be a gross NPE but you and Tom have long since championed the notion that you need to plan to mitigate the uncertainty of the turn order. Anyways, I'm just very disheartened by all the hate the army gets because it overflows onto the individuals who play it - "Oh he's using Lumineth, his victory means nothing", "he's just playing a cheese army", "gamey" etc. If the idea is to promote a harmonious community perhaps we could spend a bit less time throwing shade at a given army (Lumineth or not, I'm also talking about "bin" armies) and more time examining constructive ways to deal with what GW has dealt us and perhaps reinforcing that beating a control deck is incredibly rewarding and can make for some of the most interesting play! I hope you guys know I still love you and will continue to watch I just had to get this off my chest. PS: 3:09:09 the Ballista can't be used effectively to debuff a unit that charged you because it only lasts until end of turn.

Not a fan of the Jank-Elves...

Goddamned "Aged Smegma" still pisses me off .

this book is a bizarre jank compilation of lots of rules stapled together and endless "why is this a thing", "why did they do this", "this is 5th exception to the core rules"

Sounds like one of the first thing the new Product developer will need to solve. For me this army sounds like a no fun army. Not fun to play because of the high mental tax linked to it and no fun to play against because of all the NPE going on....sorry Tom

Three men talking about makeup