Even though they did it for the transmission, a universal derailleur standard is a damn good idea.

They get to sell the hangers. Still enough reason even without transmission.

I'm sure Shimano asked the same thing.

​@oliverdurgen5953 be a bigger Oliver and acknowledge that someone may have more foresight than you. Questioning Sram's motivations was an entirely logical response.

There was a patent for a SRAM direct mount derailleur one year (2018) before UDH got announced - google - Patent Patrol: Direct thru-axle mounted, hydraulically damped SRAM rear derailleurs - so everyone in the industry knew what UDH was for, and where SRAM were going with it, when it got anounced in 2019

Not only that. Oftentimes, these high price items also have high price maintenance/installation. E.g. I thought I was set when I moved on to air forks, but then I realized I also needed to pay to service the forks once or twice a year (that cost the same as installing the fork)

@@KarlenBell lower leg service is pretty easy on any fork. There are many tutorials here on youtube for any type of fork. If you're doing maintenance on your bike anyways, you should easily be able to do a lower leg service. And then send it in every few years for an overhaul / big service

i just went back to friction shifters so i’m here looking at a piece of gear priced beyond my means that i’m not even interested in. i do like the mounting method-i hope that spreads

My biggest gripe is that you have to go all in on every component. I get that times change, but it's hard not to be cynical about Sram with these types of things. The cassettes are comically expensive.

As soon as he mentioned a battery was needed for it I told myself I don't need it or the battery.

Or slow development to manufacturing

Mainly, its really good for consumers. Things being compatible cuts down our cost and increases options

It's still good for consumer if they use the same back design for many bikes

@@jamesmcpherson3924 Even though development would have took this much time (which is very likely), they still managed to implement UDH in the bike industry BECAUSE they were sure that they could benefit from it afterwards ! Pretty smart if you ask me

i literally laughed out loud when the penny dropped and I realized what they did. Freaking brilliant!

💯💯

I agree, but Seth please don't shy away from getting too techy with us we came looking for the beta. You are relatable so you will help us all learn what we need to know

Please seed this idea into Box Components heads - you seem to have good connections with them

same. we know that sram has the capability to do so. they may be scared it performs at par with their electronics counterpart that it may lower their sale

Basta si Brent Kay bayot

This has been patented by SRAM so no-one else will be able to release a compatible product. This is SRAM taking one of the last remaining "standards" on a bike and making it proprietary so that you are locked into using their derailleur for the life of the frame.

@@Kevin_Aus SRAM licenses UDH to manufacturers, just like Shimano licenses MicroSpline etc.

GX is ~$1099 at most retailers, if folks are curious. So yeah, not cheap but not wildly expensive either. A new mechanical XT setup runs around 700-800.

@@DisastroSlick Shimano XT groupset 600-700 dollar with breaks

@@DisastroSlick I'd call it stupid expensive. For many, that's more than the cost of their bike. Fortunately for those not swimming in disposable cash, Microshift is somewhat affordable, and much better imho.

@@DisastroSlick Forgot to include the torque wrench cost that most folks will also need to absorb if they try to soar with the Eagle...

@@sapinva If your bike is less than $1000 then you probably shouldn't be considering putting SRAM Eagle on it at all

Here's nothing really standardized except the hanger. I'm afraid unless they make their mounting system etc. available just as free or for a very reasonable license fee, and allow some leeway in the implementation of other solutions with the same goals by other brands regarding the protection of their patents, there'll be a lot more incompatibilities coming from this. We'll have to wait and see, as always. But I highly doubt they did you any kind of favor as a mechanic.

Aussie Aussie Aussie!!

Well put! I couldn't agree more. I would even add humor to your list of accolades.

Really. That's true.😊

Bravo, Seth!

He used to be I Notice he doesn’t respond to most people that follow him plus he only does videos once in a while now

A replacement cage for Sram Transmission costs the same as a cassette/derailleur/shifter from Microshift, which works 95% as well.

Yours will still work in 40 more

downtube shifters are so fun. imo they look way cooler as well

Being able to shift under load is a pretty great feature. Helps on hills and accelerating faster.

@@joshualabonte8478 Still run a 32 ring/40 cassette w a 10 speed XTR and don't have too much trouble getting up most everything. I also don't have a 35 lbs bike with 64 HTA, like most new alloy trail bikes. I'm 30lbs packed w water in a 150/130 package. New isn't always better. Industry talk.

He does everything MTB related better than anyone. Love Phil and follow a few other channels, but Seth consistently makes the best videos in the genre. Kinda crazy when you think about how much better his channel is than everyone else. Very creative, great story teller, and has always treated it as a business (unlike some channels like Alex who take months off at a time).

I'd watch if he just made eggs every video

But a $600 cassette is a bargain mate

@@janeblogs324 I know right? Be interesting to see what their lifespan is. Would one outlast the four XT cassettes you could have for the same money, even if you shifted on those cassettes like an angry gorilla.

TBF, if you check out zerofrictioncycling, the old SRAM Eagle X01/ XX1 chains have big improvements on the lifespan compared to other chains. 300€ for the new GX - cassette is still too much imo since that was the price for the old XX1 casette.

@@5ch4cht3l7 and that is mostly why I wont get this. XX1 ? I would buy it fro that price. I have a 5000mile XX1 cassette right now on the bike and I dont think it will give up soon. However derailleurs suck. They are to exposed so I will just take the frame for the la bikes derailleur. + The suspesion will be better and the bike will be way more silent.

Are the consumables more expensive than those of motorbikes? Probably

I also had the feeling like there have been some failures in pro level cycling. But I'm not sure if these where SRAM Transmission and what the failure was. But I don't get this: "Sram has removed the derailleur hanger, but that comes at the expense of a less rigid derailleur cage." If the cage is really less rigid then I think this would be an issue of a poor construction but not a principle issue. I rather had the feeling like there have been more torn chains. But not sure...

@@HannesSchmiderer Well, it's in the eye of the beholder whether this is a bad design or not. There are for the new models all kinds of spare parts for expensive money in the aftermarket.... I have now heard a couple of times that the new rear derailleur is more sensitive than the old AXS or the cable-actuated versions.

XT is a third of the price, can shift under load (maybe not quite as well but good enough), is very reliable and I dont have to think about batteries. thats what ill be buying for the foreseeable future

@@tomwhicker7951 thats what ill keep buying, or even better, SLX!

@@tomwhicker7951 XT is also my goto!

Shimano does not shift good under load, and thats not only my opinion

Yeah hyperglide+ works great and theres no pedal shock definitely. Linkglide will only be useful for electric bikes, which is where Shimano is putting all the R&D into, especially with their electric derailleurs being linked to their motors.

@@ffabcd5091 Linkglide is also useful for commuters and people who put durability, price and lifespan at the top of their wish list.

@@jooseps186 in my opinion you should check your b tension and hanger alignment.

@@crankshoptv8141 B-tension is the most important adjustment for good shifting.

and your life is so much better now

@@emanuele8226 Well, this detail is ;-) It reminds me of the gear hub in my touring bike that offers "shifting at any cadence". I noticed that's quite useful when cycling with bags or trailer.

The trade off as mentions is slower shifting in return for that ability to shift under load. This dumbing down of shifting doesn't reduce thinking work for bike riding in my opinion.

I've been doing it "man tight" for 30 years, never a single issue.

Not over-tighten and also tighten more than you can tighten, and accurately, not just gorilla-d on there.

Torque wrenches only work on new parts as soon as it gets dirty or worn you need to use your brain. so not that great for a home mechanic.

yes but I'm not carrying one on the fecking trails if I need to take my rear wheel off, what a load of nonsense

but none which goes to about 40Nm. The normal force you need is not above 15Nm. So the one you would need herefore the normal has not at home.

And when the battery expires now you need to replace that

if doing need to change under load why bother? and he said it needed electronic timing. so even if it wasn't wireless it would still need a battery. this is just rubbish technology that isn't needed

​@@kenfryer2090 it wouldn't have to, when it is able to be connected to the dynamo, and with a much more common standard wired in parallel to the dynamo the batteries could power the lights and other gadgets too when standing still and probably even get charged when going fast.

Except a big one called efficiency.

​@@T-ReV7That is pretty much irrelevant unless the drivetrain is completely clean and perfectly adjusted. Which on my mountain bikes, lasts for about one mile.

If you look at the motorcycle world, there is a reason high performance, light weight bikes still use chains (vs shaft drive or belt drive touring bikes). ALOT of internet trolls piling on in the comments sections, but the pinion system is likely several years out anyway

💯✌✌

⁠true, but on the downside it’s heavier than a derailleur drivetrain, and has much higher internal friction losses…. all of the internal gears in the pinion gearbox are constantly meshed, even though only one pair is driving at any given time, like an automobile transmission…. the big benefit of chains and derailleurs is that they’re very efficient at transmitting power, and they’re lightweight…. and can put up with a lot of mistreatment, poor maintenance and misalignment and keep on working…

exactly, if the damage is too much, you've now ruined your axle which is more expensive than a replacement hanger.

The axle torque spec really isn’t that big of a deal as compared to going by spec to install derailleur. I might not shift perfect with wacky axle torque but it’ll still shift better than every other system…

go by feel and then by torque spec when you’re home/get to a shop

@@MillerRL96 I'm not sure what this means...are you saying that a mis-torqued Eagle system shfits better than standard SRAM or Shimano wireless? If that's the case, why is there even a torque spec on the thru axle? What does Seth mean when he says that the torque needs to be precise for Eagle to work well?

@@kalebpeterson9375 of course this is what you'd do, but Seth said the system is very sensitive to torque values. How will the bike perform if you can't get the proper torque after you change a flat?

Only one chain ring! what a slow speed bike setup, no good racing cars in town or slipstreaming trucks. Need change many gears quickly not waiting for sun & moon alignments especially standing starts going downhill or speeding up before hill then jumping to lower cogs. The shimano STi rapid fire shifters finally gave up after 31yrs. Will that battery last many, many years or just another throw away?

I ditched the XTR on my XC bike. The marketing didn't match the performance.

Yep, the worst thing about my GX Eagle is the ability to only shift down a single gear per click where my old XT M8000, 3 gears from 1 press. Anyone who remembers the transition from regular and uniglide cassettes to Hyperglide remembers how much better shifting under power became. It will be interesting to see wear profiles of Shimano vs SRAM with power shifting vs soft peddle shifting (well softer after uniglide). Power shifting anything with a chain, ramps or timed shifting is going to wear it quickly.

@@carlwilliams3488 I still have my trusty old twist shifters on my bike, the newest one being a Rohloff twist shift, the old one being the last generation under the brand name Sachs before Sram bought it out. Still on a 3x7 and 3x8 setup on some bikes I have. It just works (and since I am older and no longer riding as much and as hard, it might last a long time! Problably have to change to electric in a few years when I cannot catch up with my kids anymore (till now I still can 😉) And I am that long in the game that I still have unindexed 3x6 riding done on tumb shifters and underbar shifters in my memory 😂 At one stage I even rode bar end shifters from the race bike on my mountain bike with an extra wide time trial bar (combined with Magura HS77 Racebar brakes). That whole setup was really dangerous for other drivers in races on chrashes, so I gave up on it. Even so it was really good on steep climbs.

I haven’t tested the new Stam group set to see how this shift under pressure works, but on a XC race I prefer always a fast gear shifting as my XT provides. My Super Caliber gen1 is UDH and I’m studying if this changes bring me some benefits… 🤔

you can get one today. Enviolo.

the derailleur gives first. that's why they make is retract, but hit it sideways hard enough it will break. it takes a lot more than a hanger though, so that's the trade off.

My friend is a bike mechanic and told me about someone that came in with a broken transmission derailleur. It broke in every possible way. The performance benefits seem good and UDH is a win since these frames can use traditional derailleurs as well, but I’m going to keep using derailleur hangers.

What do you mean? The udh is a hanger isn't it?

Imagine a engineer not mentioning that they are a engineer. Everyone can figure that out.

@@kangsterizer I agree with you. It's basically the principle of "the weakest Link" which should be the hanger and not the frame. Cheaper to replace a removable hanger then the frame! I had a FIBERGLASS racing frame (with a cracked rear frame below the seat) using the electric changer, and the whole frame needed to be changed, so I tossed the bike instead, and opted for a new one. The derailleur was not damaged!

Just like everything that’s analog on your bike it’ll get you home perfectly fine. The reason you took the wheel off is probably to fix a flat. Do you have a method to get the psi exactly right? No, but it’ll be close, it’ll get you home, and you can torque or fix the PSI later

True. I tested the brand new Pinion e-motor (with 12 speed integrated gearbox). That thing shifts so fast (way faster than SRAM wireless) and is maintenance free with a belt drive. Only a oil change every 10 000 km. Only thing is, it is more suitable at the moment to the ebikes (because of the weight). But we'll see in the future.

yeah, wow, I was super on board until that statement too - some of us take both wheels off to get bikes in the backs of our cars

He torqued the derailleur side down not the wheel side. You will be just fine taking your wheel on and off.

Or just go by feel.

It's top end torque, and it doesn't really matter, and you won't reach it by hand with your multi tool

This!!!! I started a bike shop two years ago after wrenching privately for years. The more bikes I fix the more I am into retro tech that just works and can be fixed on the trails. I really notice the "car-ification" of the bicycle industry. Everything has a new model year nearly every year, you cannot get spare parts for stuff that is not even old yet because they change standards every year and make stuff as incompatible as possible. This is against everything a bicycle should incorporate: freedom, independence and simplicity. That being said ofc the advantages it brings are real in certain situations for certain people. And the UDH and the long game they played with it was very smart. Nobody would have adopted Transmission otherwise. And the UDH can still be a good thing, if it keeps getting adopted and if other manufacturers can fabricate compatible components

I have these exact same concerns as well.

Never liked sram

I think the UDH was a push in the right direction regardless of SRAM's ulterior motives. I understand the right-to-repair argument. I hate that closed system nonsense. But I don't know how SRAM could make a system like this easy to repair. By necessity, the electronics are extremely compact to ensure the footprint is small enough. It's not like bike techs are going to crack open the case and go at it with their soldering irons. I work on my own bike as much as possible. I'm pretty good at setting limit screws and indexing the gears so the Eagle T does not appeal that much to me at this time even though I think it's pretty cool. But I can't say I'm concerned about losing right-to-repair privileges. And just think about it. If SRAM starts trying to bilk customers by forcing them into controlled service and repair channels, riders are going to revolt. I'm sure they will do all they can to maintain goodwill with the community. At least for now. I mean, Elon Musk could purchase SRAM and then I'd be worried.

You can buy all the parts for that derailleur right now. Take your aluminum foil hat off old man. This is a step in the right direction.

how are you planning to make something that needs to be electronic without batteries?

A cable actuated direct mount system could be made without any of the electronics, and I hope someone does that. The timing part would be challenging to do without electronics, but to me that part is secondary to eliminating the derailleur hanger.

@@matess3655 all you need is a capacitor and an extremely tiny motor attached to one of the many gear hubs in the derailleur. The necessary electronics probably use only milliwatts of power, that is pretty trivial to achieve without wasting any torque.

Since it is good for e-bikes does it have to have that stupid little battery?

@@matess3655 Easy, use piezoelectric crystals in the shifter like they do in battery free Philips Hue wireless light switches. Then use a very small dynamo in the hub to move the derailleur.

To add to this, when you write off a traditional derailleur it usually just takes the hanger with it as that's what the hanger is for. When this thing breaks it very well can (and probably will) take the axle and frame with it. Axles are not invincible, hell they're not even absurdly strong and when they break they can take the frame with it. Just ask Rocky Mountain what happened with the Slayer they gave to Pinkbike 🤣Not having that barrier between the derailleur and frame is going to prove to be an issue when you hit the thing hard enough to shear it. And that's not an if, it's a WHEN. I don't care how much your marketing team says that you can stand on it and hit it with a hammer, that thing will shear eventually.

I think it's more likely that it takes hold because of the hype, and that replacement parts will be made by third parties like Problem Solvers, Wheels Manufacturing, Wolf Tooth, etc.

I don't think it's going to be gone in 5 years, let's meet again in 5 years in this comment section.

@@englishwithtimusa hype? ha. no. you need to remember that these groups are at the high end niche, a fraction of a percent of the market for "performance" mountain bikes. Absolutely no one will follow and because sram is only popular at the top end and has low to no share on bike under a few thousand bucks, this is going to fade away... And that is if the product was GOOD, which it is not. Shimano, who does control the broader market tried a new hanger spec a while back... abandoned as of 12 speed cause absolutely no one was interested. But at least that is just a hanger. And wolf tooth I don't see making upper derailleur assemblies that hold the battery pack etc. That is sram's job. Right NOW, the only parts available are cage assemblies for $140-$200 usd - which is flat out absurd. Transmission is a disposable $500 derailleur built at a time where buyers are fighting that concept and laws are being implemented to actually stop product designs like this. There is a pattern to SRAM's business, and this fits right in. Flashy, proprietary, full of hype but not particularly well engineered, and abandoned in a short time. They are the Sony of cycling.

@@andreashabeck1155 Sure thing. I will bet 1 shiny nickel that within 5 years, you will not be able to get ANY repair parts for these recently launched derailleurs, and sram will have already have announced or launched versions that fit standard hangers.

And proprietary batteries leading into even more landfill. Are the bats even compatible between the new new shifter and the old one, or with the dropper post? Not to mention cross brand...

Also consider how good mid end Shimano components are, deore 4 pot brakes and 12 speed drivetrains are really good bang for your buck.

This is DEFINITELY false. During the pandemic, while Shimano's products disappeared from the market while they were ramping up for 12sp Dura Ace and Ultegra, SRAM was busy bringing us all Rival and GX AXS. Then when Shimano brings out 12 speed 105, SRAM brought us Apex AXS. SRAM has long been eating Shimano's food on the lower end side of the market. I think they're genuinely trying to bring about something that will improve mountain biking. Because L-TWOO and Sensah and Microshift and Box have been forcing Shimano and SRAM to be competitive with the lower end...

Shimano is much more focused on the performance road bike market, where it massively dominates over Sram (well, not speaking of powermeter accuracy… but in terms of efficiency, front derailleur shifting speed and number of teams using Di2 over AXS). I have ridden a few different levels of mechanical Shimano as well as Sram Eagle groupsets, currently I have Shimano XTR and it's leagues ahead of anything else I've tried and if Shimano wants to keep the MTB drivetrains mechanical, there's little room for improvement. That puts Shimano in a difficult situation, because the only way to improve its top-end MTB drivetrains would be to switch to electronic and wireless, or direct mount or both, all of these variants would be (I guss) hard to achieve without conflicting with Sram's patents. Sram on the other hand doesn't care about entry level stuff, so that's where Shimano gets money in the MTB department from and maybe doesn't really need to focus on renewing it's top-end components, since they're still more than capable of winning World Cup level races.

Idk it's still quite a lot especially the u8000.

@@seanrequiredfieldcannotbel1362 this is DEFINETELY false view of yours on what budget market is. Apex and 105 are mere teasers for luxury upper tiers. SX falls apart just at the right time you start liking sram cassettes and won't downgrade. Budget is tourney...alivio, which are currently getting replaced by cues, and - oh wait - sram really gave up on x3...x9. Because Ltwoo is based on older sram designs and production and knows better then sram itself how to make budget parts.

Could even have different tiers, for different ranges of gears you are allowed to use...

@@posleterrible9542 and they'll try to tell you that you can buy the cheaper "DH gears" subscription if you're only riding park so you can save! Clown world is coming to mtb finally.