This talk will be a continuation of my previous episode "When are men and women most attractive?" So be sure to listen to that one first. In this episode, I'll be taking some of the results discussed in the peer-reviewed article "Aspirational pursuit of mates in online dating markets" (link below) one step further, namely: by advancing my own hypothesis on why people get married when they do. Given the data on perceived desirability across the lifespan, it makes sense from a game theory perspective that women would push for long-term commitment while the desirability gap still favors them. The data show that this gap switches preference around 30 years of age. Is it just a coincidence that the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 29 years-old? "Aspirational pursuit of mates in online dating markets": www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aap9815 Orion is a licensed psychologist in the state of California. Podcast available of Spotify, Instagram, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and others. See the "About" tab for more information on donations and consultations. Website: oriontarabanpsyd.com

As a 37 year old single male, I noticed this. I look better now than I did at 27. I make over six figures now. I can provide and look good. But I don’t find women today very appealing, except for looks. Most seem to not be feminine and somewhat shallow.

I'm a woman and this sounds true. We need more people who speak the truth in the internet! Thanks!

There's also the childbirth issue. Women who want children need to get married while they're still fertile (safely).

52 year old male here. Never been married. One son with whom I've always had a good relationship. I've taken care of him financially. His mother is a good mom. I'm an MD...great income. I go to the gym. I'm kind. I travel. To all the fellas with a good or great income I say this: NEVER GET MARRIED UNLESS THE DIVORCE LAWS CHANGE. I'm very happy and any money that I've given to others has been MY CHOICE. You can have solid relationships with romantic partners without having to put half your assets, your children, and future income at risk. Do not get married....don't let her move in....be kind, honest, and good to women.

You’re like grandfather red pill. You display the information without bias and judgement. Just a calm tone is where’s the facts. You guys do with it what you like Love your content and watch every single episode!

So much that I was unaware about human nature. Your talks help me demystify my past. It helped me to stop blaming myself and come to the realization that there is a certain order of things. Certain things were not my fault. Where were you when I was 17 through 30? I just didn't know these things in my youth. Thank you for helping me process.

In the spring of 1975, I fell in love at first sight with a guy in my senior class. We dated all summer but had discussed in the beginning of our dating that since I was reporting for Active duty in the Navy mid fall we would let each other go. In 2010 after 35 years we found each other again. We were both single and just picked up where we left off. We got married August 2023 because it was not financially feaseable until I left the VA. There is no room in our relationship for games or power struggles. We do not fit in the "norm" of a relationship, we enhance each other.

100% true. In developping countries, the women value peak is obtained way earlier for many reasons, probably a poorer access to healthacare. Like around 22-25. At 40, many of them look like old ladies. So in those countries you find almost all the women married and having children under 25. It's just a universal law.

Wow, this is the most logic and accurate depiction of the “hitting the wall” phenomenon. You deserve more views and subscribers

Absolutely true! Thank you for your effort to deliver powerful truths in a way that many of us can understand.

In my experience, women after 30, become bored, angrier , their maturity level (if they have one) makes them bossy, and sitting across the table ,what i see is not an excited , passionate person that somewhat looks up to me with anticipation. That is a major turn off for me. Why should i even consider her for myself.?

That's a great point! I think it's another reason men should focus on their health and business goals to increase their desirability however they can, and to just enjoy life

Poor men...I know many who have married at thirty thinking that life is over at that age, when in fact, their attractiveness only increases...by the time they reach 40, many are in unhappy marriages, since they decided to marry due to the pressure of the woman or society, while those late bloomers are in their prime. As an attractive woman close to 40 years old, I would prefer a man of this age a thousand times to choose me, in a more free and rational way, even knowing that my chances are less than those of a 20-something girl. I believe that as it is always said, we should seek to be the most complete and happy people with our own lives, and regardless of age, like-minded people will meet and enjoy their lives much more, with greater experience and wisdom.

This is absolutely true. And if a girl especially dates jerks in her 20s and ignores the good guys because they aren't "exciting" enough, she ends up damaging herself and ends up being single in her early 30s. And as you explained, a woman's desirability has already decreased and barely any guy would want to date her. So, this woman ends up owning 8-10 cats, living alone, drinking wine and hating men.

such a brilliant channel covering interesting topics, thank you!!

You're spot on. The information you've mentioned is a concept that Rollo T has been talking about for nearly 10 years. Well before the research you have was conducted. Interesting stuff.

Wow, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for your presentation!

Man you are killing it. Last week you had 26,000 subs. This week, 38,000 subs

I love your content. You be right, you be wrong. Either way, it’s okay. The most important thing is you are genuine in your message & that’s what I & most others appreciate about you. Thank you & keep up the great content 🙏🤘

All true, and makes sense....YET, there are those women w/ rather average looks who seem to have ZERO problems securing men as they get older. They get widowed at 48 and 6 months of grieving later they have their pick (RL story). And, there are those who are supposedly "hot" who always had issues even at their youngest and hottest. I would love to know what exactly is that IT FACTOR that makes the first group so desirable to men at any age. My guess is that is has something to do with how much they love and accept men and masculinity deep down..I could be wrong!

Jeez man your channel is about to blow up

I was married at 43, to a 27 year old woman. She got in there just in time.

Loving the content! Thank you!

I was married for 2 years in my 20’s. He divorced me due to his cheating (I didn’t blame him because he desired to be loved a lot more than I did). I remain single since but I dated, thankfully no marriage was not on the table. I like being single and have my own independence. I am retired now living in a senior park, haven’t dated for over 10 years. Life is peaceful and easy.

I would argue that women have societal and biological pressures. Indeed, fertility has an expiration date, but in our society, it takes longer and longer to be trained and have a career. In other words, women are getting married at the last moment of “pick desirability” because they need a career and schooling. In the past, when careers required less schooling, and women were more dependent on men's income, people were getting married earlier - before the end of “pick desirability”. Marrying after 30 for women may impact family plans - it certainly becomes riskier. In other words, I believe get married around 30 not because they are playing blackjack with men, but because they are playing blackjack with an increasingly complex society and their own personal ambitions.

Please do a follow-up video why men then still decide to marry just before or at the point when the desirability gap closes to zero. If they behaved as rationally as women then they would clearly anticipate that their future wive‘s desirability will inevitably drop and hence not marry her but instead look for a younger wife compared to whom they would still have a positive desirability gap.

It would be great to have links to the studies you mention in your videos. Love your content. Thank you.

Another excellent talk with useful background information.

Great observations, and than you for your bravery!

I'm 44, and looking forwards to the good times ahead ;) Knowledge can be power, but it's also happiness. Cheers!

I think it's more about women having a biological clock for children rather than desirability.

I agree 100% with this as it makes a ton of sense and it’s also been verified (personally) from experience. The 30/29 dynamic has been common with friends. However, it might be worth pointing out that this is an ideal starting point for marriage in the modern world. I feel that coming out of school, we’re only 21. I think both men and women need (at least) ten years of being out in the world and experiencing life before they really understand the commitment and value of having a life partner. Sure, there are outliers but people really want to be established in a career before marrying. Great post!

Your theory rings true, and with time you can see it play out; in any retirement community it's evident that the single women usually outnumber the single men. ( Add to that that the older available men often seek younger women.) All reasons why it behooves women nearing 30 to close the deal if possible. Time is not on her side.

This video is a keeper.

Upon consideration, I think you are right. Good insight.

As a 27-year-old unmarried woman I agree, my way of thinking is very similar to your theory.

VERY interesting 🤔 Enjoy your work, always well measured & well presented… & does appear to be right on the money here 🎯 Cheers -

Women basically look for a guy to finesse once they approach 30, hence you should date someone much younger if you are a man and are in your 30s, unless you have a woman who was with you ever since you were both young then you can still be with her on your SMV ascend even though she might be in her 30s too.

Isn’t this interesting? I’m a 53 year old male. I make over $200k and have 3 degrees as a business school professor. I have no wife and no kids by choice. I thought, when I turned 40, that I would no longer be desirable as I aged. Then, something strange happened. More and more women in their 20s and 30s began to express interest. My mother broke it down as “You don’t look old. You don’t make a young man’s mistakes. And you have resources.” I thought it was a bit simplistic. You just provided support for her view. “50” is still a bit surprising to me. More men should be armed with this info at an early age. We would (as a collective) make better choices.

This is a great find.

Truth. This makes perfect sense to most women I'm sure!

This is good stuff. 👍🏾

love your videos, great information. One thing this left me wondering is why men get married when they do? This only seemed to address why women get married when they do.

I got married because I had broken up with my then girlfriend after traveling to see her concluding that I didn't have the resources to pull off an international relationship and another woman poaching me. I divorced her after three months because she expected me to have more resources than I did. That was in my twenties.

I love this man :)

The other thing to consider is how many of the women have kids by someone else, and men either don't want a woman with kids, or don't want kids. Despite the Red Pill gurus, not all men want kids. They may want a partner, but not a family. Personally, most of the women I knew when they were in that "prime" age range annoyed me.

Very interesting & I'd say that I have to agree!

i agree w/ your theory....

I love averages for general knowledge but have always noticed some women are arried several times and avoid meeting people and others are never married. They are good guidelines not destiny. I llike to learn more.

I'm surprised that men's peak desirability is 50. I would have thought somewhere between 35 and 40 where they have the right balance of resources, looks and the age gap with a young woman is not too extreme.

There are a lot of interesting ideas on dating and relationships on this channel, but one thing there's almost no discussion is love. How does love figure into dating and relationships?

Wow very interesting and true now that I’m older I notice this daily

Seems the more I learn about women I can't help but believe Leonardo DiCaprio is the Albert Einstein of relationships.

Glad he said "average" because us who workout as in lift weights look better than some of these 20 year olds.

Well done, more men need to see this. Subscribed

Ho ho hoooo this is juicy. I’d just like to say that I found the “high desirability” phase of my life to be incredibly empty, and drama filled, due to it being so obvious and overly simplistic. Checkers, if you will. I’m 37 now - and a single mom - and I have to be honest that the “less desirable” phase has positioned me to where I have more leverage when it comes to attaining the goal of being able to test any suitors for how much they’re truly interested in ME, as a partner vs me as an object that lies somewhere on a desirability scale. Deeper psych, more interesting life.

Makes Sense 👍🏻

Love your content. But gotta get a Mic, Sound is a bit low.

Very very interesting but i also think its tied to the age couples decide to have children. My mum had me at 22 and got married at 22. Me and my Ex got married when she was 28 and she had our first child at 27. Of my friends, they all got married around the time of the first child Most At 28-30 but one was 24.

Do you address the issue of all the single moms in the dating market? I’ve got grey hair, am in good shape and get hit on a lot by single moms.

For sure!! I’m 41 and set up my dating profile for men between 39 and 52…. But I’ve always been hesitant to even go on a date for someone 39-42 because I know that an attractive man my age or younger is probs attractive to a gal in her 30s. Even just a couple years is hard for me. I feel like I’m pretty secure, but I am practical too and want to make sure that if I find someone I really dig, I know he isn’t gonna be thinking he can find a younger chick… I want to be the younger chick!

There’s no such thing as “securing a commitment”. People ultimately do what they want and if they want to cheat/divorce, then they will. Commitment is a choice.

It's fascinating how naturally the marriage is on point to peak desirability. But in the past the marriage was earlier on average. So how could we explain that? Just with earlier maturity or maybe worth parents influence over marriage?

At 63 I look great always took care of myself & I know if I wanted I could have a much younger woman in my life. My once beautiful wife looks like a grandmother & has said Hell no to sex ever since she hit menopause, the hotties I went to high school with old ladies. At a wedding 10 years ago I danced with a high school buddy's daughter, she made it perfectly clear she wanted to see me. My wife is emotionally fragile & needs my presence & because she was so good to me in her prime I will take care of her till death parts us. However I will admit a coworker woman took care of my sexual needs since my wife hit menopause but that ended with the Plandemic & I am searching for a new mistress.

Do you suppose these numbers reflected only our current geographical e historical period? In traditional societies the first marriage occurs much sooner, around 18 y/o. Would you consider that peak desirability occurs in different periods for both sexes in traditional societies?

The men value clearly falls at some point, for obvious appearance reasons as you get old. I find the classical redpill chart with the two bell curves more convincing.

I think your content is brilliant. Very intelligent man you are, a joy to listen too.

If my statistics is as strong as I know it to be. That graph is a little bit off, but mostly accurate . I need to go home and redraw the same graph and figure out why yours is “floating” the way it is.

I’m women in my 30s looks much better now then before 20’s.Most of my friends as well!! because of my daily habits. Long story SHORT only men and women that look good older are those that take care of themselves while they are younger, and continue to take care of themselves by being as healthy as possible. Not a secret!! men don’t automatically age like fine wine. That is a big misconception and women don’t automatically look worst older.

I've always heard that multiple studies across cultures showed these ages. Women 23. Men 43.

If that is true then why the average age of first marriage has moved years forward in the past 30 years? Biological desirebility does not change that fast. That would proof that the main assumption is not true.

The audio volume is quite low on this one.

Not all are rational players but this does explains things a lot!

Can we align bitcoin smart contract incentives with mate choice game theory incentives. 🤔 what would that look like???

I agree.

How can you say those numbers how more accurate would be 23 / 36 Peak smv

Very interesting. Thank you. I hope the human race is smarter and both men and women would learn to have an open mind and see all people as perfect. This is truly a matter of perception.

That's a very interesting graph. Does it also suggest that as a man approaches 40 he is on a level with younger and younger women? Does this manifest in real life pairings?

You can also draw the intersection with a phase shift wrt to the man's age. A woman willy marry earlier, if she finds a suitable older man, no?

This is very interesting. One question I have is causation. Are women marrying just before the desirability intersection out of some innate sense of when their value begins to drop, or does the desirability intersection point exist where it is because that's that's just after the point where women are typically marrying in the local society and men know this? Or, as I suspect, are both happening at the same time? Either way, I'm very confident that there is a relationship between these data metrics. The thing that is clear is that the influence of "child-bearing years" puts a major upper limit influence on female desirability in the eyes of most men, which in turn must heavily influence how late a woman can get married in any society that highly values the concept of monogamous lifelong partnerships. Thus, there seemingly must be a connection between the two data sets. Especially for FIRST marriages.

So how does this relate to the issue of not enough babies being born? How is the value relationship different in "underdeveloped" societies where "appropriate" number of kids is born?

Whats interesting about this is it flies in the face of divorce statistics. Given their value is declining, why divorce? Based on the information here it is illogical since you're only going to get a worse deal next time. Touch on that?

I've heard much that hints at this but its great to see hard data. One of the things Jordan Peterson found in his work that women *really* want to have babies by age 30.Interesting coincidence.

But people got married much earlier a few decades ago. Has the favorability math changed? Probably not.

I married at 29, I specifically remember thinking “Tiff, you aren’t getting any younger.” 😅

Is it women epiphany phase (from 28 to 31 yo)?

Need to consider the biological clock in this as well

Some factors probably influencing women's choice in these curves: Women have been working on their career, switch priorities because: 1. Competition increases due to younger ladies beauty while she notices she's older in lots of small details. Eg skin is not as naturally healthy looking, shape is not as lithe etc. Dresses don't look at good etc. 2. Women experience means a lot of look forward to finding a way out of the job treadmill via putting family first and enjoying that side of life: Women are more balanced and smarter than a lot of men in this respect I would argue. 3. They do realize they're running out of time with biological clock ie calculation of number of kids, time to court, marry, mortgage, conceive-pregnancy, for that. 4. The good men in their age rage are being "gobbled up" by other high value women and the pool is shrinking eg after 35-40s there's divorcees and people who never made it in the marriage market. 5. The horror stories of left-over women increases 6. Settling for a steady relationship when your energy levels drops is more appealing also. A lot of women do get tired of dating at this stage. As do men.

Therapy is a female coping mechanism. It allows them to process their emotions. Males cope in other ways like going to the gym or working on their business. As a man, financial and physical gains are more of an upside than talking through your problems. In breakups, men see themselves as inadequate and go to great lengths to cope with it by becoming strong and rich. Just the way things are.

nothing but the truth!

Men have begun to truly understand that marriage is a raw deal.

Draw a surplus line on that graph and that’s me…35 going for 18-25

The video doesn't adress family planing which is the main purpose of a marriage.

Most of them simply fulfill society expectations

The best ROI would be to get married between 37 to 42 to an attractive 23 to 25 year old who has an attractive mother and grandmother. Assuming you are crazy enough to get married in the first place, 😂

Women are most desirable at ae 18, because that represents the peak of their child bearing capabilities. Men are most desirable around age 48, because that's when they are typically at the peak of their careers.

Women try to marry right before they hit the wall

Getting married is absolutely selfish. All you want is companionship, sexual satisfaction and financial security which is the epitome of absolute selfishness to me. It doesn't matter whether you're straight, gay or bisexual, it is still selfish no matter what. I am single/unmarried, over the moon with that decision and I have zero regrets.

I believe the national average if they're telling us the truth is 2729 for marriage this may be an old number maybe it's 2931 something like that