True

I just can't explain the price, I bought a pcb cnc for 200$ cad and the traces are much more precise. Plus you don't needs consumables.

The price is horrendous, and even putting that aside the process is still fiddly and slow. Still, if you have the money, don't mind the hassle and want to regularly make PCBs quicker than waiting on mail order boards then I guess it's viable?

@@greatscottlab What are your thoughts on the wegstr cnc for making PCBs?

True, especially considering the fact that this thing is theoretically nothing more than a 3d printer with a different substance to print with and a drill tool.

Actually, sooner. You can make a 3d printer do exactly this. There are already injector extruders available, and so on... this thing isn't worth $400, let alone $4000.... Ugly finish, etc... I can get just as ugly a finish with protoboards, and for connecting surface mount components, I just run traces around and don't cross... Or, simply run thin wires and a bit of adhesive to get the same result for prototyping.

2030 no humans on earth...

@@boscovich11 Elaborate, please?

@@loleq2137 it's a joke. OP said that maybe those printers become cheap and common by 2030... loleq21 said that maybe there will be no humans on Earth by then...

@@loleq2137 Look up the (not so) Great Reset. Ogbond is either an NPC or unaware of what's going on. You will own nothing, rent everything & be happy.

It really depends on what it's slowing down. If you've got engineers spinning their wheels waiting on a prototype PCB for a week, then it'd be worth the money. That's assuming that the company can't use traditional acid bath techniques to make prototype boards, though.

@@jeffspaulding9834 If you have engineers spinning their wheels you can also get your pcb made and delivered in a day (is quite costly aswell though)... the issue is that this can only print two layers, so for many designs it's not suitable

@@johnuferbach9166 That's a good point. I don't work in a field that does a lot of PCB prototyping (we'll solder something on a PCB sometimes, but mostly it comes to us already assembled) so I don't really know, but I'd be interested to see how often two-sided prototypes boards are used in the industry. I know a lot of the stuff I work with is two sided, but that's because it's meant for field repairs (it's mostly through-hole for the same reason).

@@jeffspaulding9834 that's why we bought one where I work. It's completely useless, and barely functions as advertised. We just order boards on a 24h turnaround from a domestic supplier instead.

Would be fun for starting a mini business. You can still do 3d printing for profit at home but naturally you need to network a lot and bring some skills into the deal ie 3d modelling, painting and other finishing

Sorry about that......

Well i wait 1 month with cheap option, i can wait less but i have to pay more, but that make it quite expensive (Before someone gonna comment that this isn't that expensive , I live in Poland with make prices-earnings ratio quite bad for me, fact that i'm 18 year old didn't help either). Of course income just like chipping time and price depend on country. But my point is, this is trade of, cheap but not fast, or fast but not cheap. But i quess you can live in place where this no option is neither cheap neither fast.

@@crusaderanimation6967 dude that’s just a freaking 3D printer. You could get a 3D printer and mod it and get a very similar result for a LOT LESS

Same

@@crusaderanimation6967 good luck mate, i kinda have the same story(19 yo)

So true

Lol

Do not worry. JLCPCB will be back.

JLCPCB are much cheaper and better quality; you had to wait and if you make a mistake you had to wait again ... rapid protoyping is expensive, factory production is cheap

Then they watch the video till the end and sigh in relief

whats the price? cannot find it in the links :(

@@artemonstrick almost 4000 euros

Check out Marco reps. It's a good channel. It also has videos on pcb manufacture using a 3d printer and a mounted laser which would be a much more affordable option but that's secondary.

@@artemonstrick 11:05

It is worth it for a company. Imagine you order a prototype PCB and realize there it needs a change so now your entire engineering staff is getting paid while doing nothing for a week. Even rush jobs take 24 hours-2 days and cost several thousands. A company will recover the investment within the first product development cycle if not within the first week.

Lol yea

Yeah but a engeneer working at home can now make prototypes faster.

Yeah and it is super fing manual. My designs are simple enough to fit on two layers. I would need to add every via manually I would kill myself. A week is super fing good for a 4 layer assembled pcb in my opinion

This is for prototypes, not to replace pcb makers, as an engineer I can say, I have been waiting for this, I am at a point where I might have been able to make it myself, but I might just buy one to be able to do designs and repairs faster

@@trowawayacc For the cost of that machine, an actual engineer can afford to use "normal" methods at home.

why havent you guys donated this printer to Scott instead of asking it back?

lower the price...

Keep on innovation, that's very good printer! Love it

@@filesopen6188 Smaller companies don't have unlimited budgets. Supporting them means later they can give out more stuff.

Sounded very interesting until it became clear it was an undeclared sponsored video. Underhand and misleading.

or any other of the cheap Chinese manufactures. But even European manufacturers are not unaffordable, neither the US ones as far as I heard.

@@uwezimmermann5427 And if you order at the premium like beta layout you can even get it delivered in like 1 day (that is kinda costly though^^)

American PCB fabs are pretty expensive compared to Chinese if you're ordering a small volume/area, usually on order of like 5-10x the cost per square inch. The advantage the US fabs have if you're in America is that you can next-day a PCB if you need one right now versus having to wait a week plus for a Chinese-fabbed board set. I have my own PCB mill that I use for R&D and farm out my PCBs to JLCPCB so I just got for cheap-and-dirty for preproduction testing.

Agreed it looks like a total pain to use, modding PCB design and messing around trimming bridging between pads. I don't see any market for this thing to be honest. I wouldn't use it even if it were free, it doesn't look at all reliable. PCB fabs are getting cheaper all the time even the ones in the US and Europe are starting to get reasonable pricing on small prototype boards these days.

@@paulround8501 and Elektor even proudly links to this video on Facebook trying to advertise this machine facebook.com/ElektorDE/posts/3669504553127589

Not to mention no expensive consumables. At most the milling bits and, well, the board itself used. Expensive consumables kill it in my opinion (as if I had the cash for it anyway hehe), and then that special solder used is just the cherry on top.

If you get copper rivets, you can make much betterr quality PCBs than this at home. You can make a UV curing station and mask the PCBs too. And for the rest of the price, you can buy tons of gold for gold plating xd.

@@tunahankaratay1523 You mean grams of gold. :P

@@rimmersbryggeri I mean for that price I could get you megatons.

No prices on their site for "Bantam tools PCB Mill" and their software has a subscription. "Bantam Tools Milling Machine Software Annual Subscription" $199.00. No thank you..... How can you claim 1/2 the cost? (FYI their CNC version is $3,999.00.....)

It's because Scott is not even working, this is just entertainment for him

Guess which one is German.

Nope. There will be more videos with JLCPCB as the sponsor. But you know, they are more ways to create PCBs ;-)

Same

@@greatscottlab Yes I have been making PCB at home for many years, yes it takes time and it's not very professional, but it is much better than this stupid thing :)

If you can read between the lines, this is an AD for J.....PCB The 3d printing is not an options, no through hole, multi layer?, solder mask?

Or trying to use one of those huge old soldering guns to work on a pcb.. lol

@@Helyx525 Yea lemmi just get my 300w gun here and watch me remove this 0402, yup its gone and lord knows what all those other bits did because they're gone too.

I want to go into PCB printing for undergraduate students in a developing country. Do you have any advice of cheap machine I can purchase?

4000$!?!?!?!

@@leadergames0661 I guess, because in 1999 there were no easy and cheap ways of getting custom PCBs. Nowadays, also it takes a week, JLCPCB and such are just too affordable for everyone that it would make sense to buy this printer!

At this point you could probably rig up a cheap 3d printer to do solder. Probably wear through the nozzles insanely fast, but it could work.

@@KertaDrake You would need a pretty impressive hottend for that. Most cheap ones are made of copper, aluminium or something similar with these you would risk that it amalgamates with the hot tin. So you would need a hottend and nozzle that can reach up to 300 degrees C and be made of something like stainless steel. But it probably is possible yea

@@lm6036 The standard material for hotends is brass. Better ones can be made out of stainless steel and even ruby in some cases.

Absolutely agree! Even with a cheapo $80 laser printer and some crappy 50c transparent film I can get features small enough for QFP48 packages without much trouble. Great for single prototype boards before committing to overseas manufacturing

I used to do my pcb's at home for 10 years before I got tired of it and switched to professional manufacturers. Sure it was cheaper and quicker, but was too much of a hassle. I did double sided

I was getting better looking results with a CDR-pen and bottle of ferric chloride over 20 years ago :)

How do you make yours?

@@ameliabuns4058 Currently with pcb software, a laser printer and dextrin coated paper. There's a ton of info if you search the web. JLC would produce better results though.

We are not talking about pcb (printed circuit board). It is litle different

though punching rivets seemed the easiest part of the process

It is crazy ;-)

@@greatscottlab Yeah :)

i didnt know people watched this channel for the product instead of the content

@Lumumba B. But China made QC ...... Since you don't need many of them.....I would prefer Quality over price.......

It's interesting to watch nonetheless.

Yes

If it could do auto-riveting, board flipping, solder-paste dispensing, flying probe test, pick-n-place, included an oven, and flying probe uC programming, it would be really cool. Though I doubt using ink is really the right approach. Using a more traditional etching process with a laser or something similar would be much better in my opinion. You could totally sell a machine that took in parts, blank boards, and spat out fully functional and programmed 2-layer boards ready for testing. Probably could sell that for $20k. But until you're at that point, I just don't see the value proposition compared to the Chinese board houses.

... and filled the blind vias for you, and added a tool for extruding on the hole walls and curing it there (with a pin sticking out the middle of dispenser to keep the hole open). The board would need to be heated for that so that the ink on hole walls would cure so that the head could move to the next hole without disrupting current one. … and used a smaller nozzle, and had the ink stick less to the nozzle… In other words: this is good for proof of concept and for someone’s pet niche application where the current resolution and process would work unchanged. For most other people with money for it, this seems like a waste of time though. I wouldn’t be able to use this even if it was given to me for free. OTOH, a sturdy CNC with total component cost in the same price range would have immediate use. I could run two boards in parallel. CNC is also great for doing controlled impedances on thin two layer boards, or even 4+-layer boards if you can press the stack yourself (takes a press, among other things). On a CNC, you can tweak the trace width with the VNA plugged into the circuit, and do trim runs until it’s within a fraction of an Ohm, if you want it that way (not normally needed). You can also do EM-model-free feature routing, where instead of using very expensive software that still takes you only so far, you run a shape refining algorithm that modifies the shape incrementally to produce the exact response you want - and both the VNA and a TDR output can be used for that. You can do this with other components already in the circuit as well, and after the dust is blown off, you power it up, g-code generator takes a frequency and time domain sweep, circuit power is removed, and the tool goes back for another refining run to bring it closer to what you need. You could design some very complex filter responses and feedback paths that way, with rather simple technology, without slaving yourself away to EM tool vendors (OK in a big business setting, not so much in small startups and for advanced hobbyists). This can easily pay for a very fancy CNC just in the cost saved by not paying a fortune for EM modeling software, and for the speed of iterations. A bit of ingenuity can really take CNC techniques way further than is typically talked of. I’m sure plenty of companies with clever people may do this already and keep mum for competitive advantage; but I just do it for hobby stuff and would love it if some manufacturer just took the idea and made a cheap widely copied machine + software combo that can do the sort of CNC you don’t see done on PC boards. Commoditizing this stuff would be more than awesome. I only mess with it because I have to - otherwise I couldn’t play with microwave circuits so easily, and am not interested in product development in this area (life is too short - can’t do everything). I like physical experimenting too much - dealing with accurate numerical EM models for a hobby is not my piece of cake. So, all in all, this is not a very innovative product, because it does something that 99% of people who do these things can think of in like half a minute, and it doesn’t even do it particularly well (about anyone in this field could take it to this field - but that normally in business setting is a proof of concept, not something you dump onto the market with fingers crossed). Instead, maybe that company should focus on ideas that

Chinese factory mistyping "made in China".

_Toyota and Honda would like to know your location_

Yes. Savage makes some rifles in Canada. :) (Savage MkII).

Made in Canada with globally sourced parts. AKA parts made in China then screwed together in Canada 😂

@@dylan-nguyen assembled in Canada, so they basically add the powercord and put the fuse in. 😬

DIY would be stupidly easy. Nothing about this is sophisticated at all, just the changeable tool platform is a bit unique in that it uses pin to pad as a connection method, and that the bed works as a workpiece clamp and the curing heater. The only other non-standard thing is the screw-based plunger extruder for the ink vial, but this isn't anything difficult to implement. The drill itself is so unsophisticated that it uses a literal RC hobby motor to run it. Take any typical 3D printer, add a clamping system to hold a PCB blank to the bed, and have a a changeable tool system. The plunger extruder would work off the filament extruder's functionality but at a different feed rate depending on the gearing between motor and plunger. The drill could probably run off the extruder's functionality as well, but implement it as a switched function where a constant feed rate has the drill as 'on,' and stopping the feed rate switches it to 'off,' with a simple amp to run the DC motor. You could probably even upgrade the tool changer from a manual system to an automatic system. The only sophisticated part that would need work is the probe function, as most closed-source printers won't integrate it nicely unless a probing system is already provided, resulting in the probe being entirely separate and integrating at the design software level, or there's a chance more open-software products would allow it, with open-source platforms being the most open to this modification. But with that said, is probing actually necessary? Most 3D printers are going to be level for proper printing anyways, and the clamping system should be sophisticated enough to keep relative flatness of parts, even with the PCB floating in relation to the bed; even hobby milled standoff clamps should be toleranced well enough as long as the hobby machinist knows what they're doing. As for positioning purposes, I would think a laser pointer would be a valid replacement, and would be an entirely passive tool. This only leaves curing. I'd recommend and oven as no typical 3D printer is going to have a bed that safely achieves the 210°C requirement. Heated beds for ABS only really achieve >100°C due to going above the glass transition temperature of 100°C isn't really recommended. A heated bed that'll go to 210°C is a modification that is possible, but at that point it's probably safer to use an oven due to burn hazards on an open surface. The only big issue is the consumable that is the ink. I'm not sure how many suppliers there are for this stuff. Though I do wonder how similar it is to solder paste that board manufacturers use for SMD soldering; seems like it'd be similar stuff, high silver lead free paste, just the 'ink vials' use a much finer syringe tip. There may also be some kind of etching agent, or something in the reaction while baking, that adheres the paste to the fiberglass of the PCB; though I'm not sure how soldering paste interacts with a raw PCB without solder mask, as SMD soldering always has a solder mask on the etched PCB, there may not be a need for any method of adhering the paste to the board. The paste is the big unknown, and the cost of the Voltera pastes makes an alternative solution worth looking into. On the topic of conductive consumables, we've also seen actual conductive ink, as in pen ink, and we've seen various forms of filament that're metallic and conductive once you bake off the plastic. I don't think finding a product between the two would be all that difficult, especially as solder pastes already exist in various recipes. Unfortunately, Voltera doesn't list the metallic recipes for their inks, though they do for their various solder pastes. All of Voltera's products also require refrigeration for an 8 month shelf life, which makes this entire system even more expensive given that each vial is only 2ml. Only thing left is the rivet tool, probably the least sophisticated tool here, as hollow rivets have been a thing for a long time and are mostly understood in how they work. At the end of the day, the conversion is simple, with a simple manual tool changer, and simple code hacks to make it all work, with the biggest issue being the cost of OEM solder pastes and the need to find an affordable alternative. All of this is also true for converting a CNC mill, though you'd need to make more drastic changes to how the tool functions to get that platform to function correctly, as exchanging extruder type A for extruder type B is fairly simple and could easily be a 1:1 exchange in coding, but adapting a mill would be like adapting the mill to a 3D printer first before adapting it to a PCB printer. All of this is easily achievable, it's just the damned ink that makes the DIY project expensive. But does anyone really need a PCB printer? PCB printing services are extremely affordable, with some having decent turn around times, not to mention those services can do everything a PCB printer can plus more, considering those services can also do multi-layer boards. Even DIYing a double sided board isn't that difficult, though chemicals involved may produce safety hazards, but a simple masking and etching setup is extremely cheap in comparison to a machine with a high cost consumable ink. While a cool project, I just don't see the point of it. Need a prototype board? This is what we have perfboard for, or even better, just use a breadboard until an order from a PCB service arrives. There is literally no logical explanation for PCB ink printers to exist, other than being an expensive toy for people with more money than brains. I can't find a single use case where this machine has any advantage over what we already have and already use; especially when the consumable has a shelf life that requires you to actually produce a decent volume of boards within that time frame.

@@xaytana It's so stupidly easy that I wasn't even able to read through your comment 💩

@@xaytana Right you can just get a simple CNC mill from eBay for $100-200 and add parts on to do what this thing does for less than 1/10th of the cost. Conductive ink is nothing new they aren't the first and it is cheap not only is it cheap you can make it yourself at home.

What college did you go to?

Hey! I want to make one. Can you help or send some references?

@@manaspange3815 use a 3d printer as the Start, there are some that can Do Laserengrave 3d print and also milling. But i didnt have one that can Do all of this But i build my own. Print a simple Motor/ dremel holder. Look at some diy cnc.

I disagree, fiberglass dust is not a joke ;)

Some UKpostsrs are using Universal G code sender. Is it good to use? With an arduino

@@manaspange3815 Mostly Printed CNC is a good project reference, more about here: docs.v1engineering.com/mpcnc/intro/

So I guess this device is good for surface-mount components. But for through-hole components, a mill is better suited.

honestly there's still so much manual work too. So many component switches, long wait time for the curing, having to rivet the vias....seems really rough.

Try again in a couple of hours or tomorrow :-)

@@greatscottlab thanks, tried again next day and discovered that unfortunately the discount code works just for an english membership (via the linked .com-Site), not for a membership in German. Elektor support confirmed that, no discount for those who want to read in German.

Jetzt geht's doch auch für die deutschen Fans! Auf der Seite oben rechts auf die Deutsche Flagge klicken und schon geht's! - Danke an den Elektor-Support und an GreatScott!

It's Aquaman, also known as waterboy.

@@tiborklein5349 Aquagirl maybe.

Thing is way over engineered. You see how thick the metal is supporting the head? I mentioned it in another comment, but there's a reason a lot of 3D printers prices started dropping when they realized they could get 99% good results with a material as ubiquitous as extruded aluminum. Strong Juicero vibes from this machine.

We will see :-)

Just etch the PCBs. Cheap and easy

@@tobimai4843 that's what I do since the early '70s and it works great for me!

The printer would become cheap and easy to get, if the concept was succesfull. But the main problem lies in the conductive inks. These have been around for decades and didn't get cheaper by any means, ever, mostly for the expensive resources needed.

PCB manufacture with a few weeks turnaround is affordable now

Like he said at the end. Go watch again :)

Sarcasm at its fullest

For a few projects sure, but this is like saying "Oh you don't want to spend $4,000 for a CNCmill" or "$4,000 for a used Lathe" If you have enough projects, the tool will be worth it. And once you have the tool, you have the ability to do more projects. Although, this one, probably not worth it until there are non proprietary consumables.

@@mzaite Yes sure, if you need the volume it will pay for itself. But like I said this is such a niche product that probably 90%+ viewing this video don't have 4k for it or a cnc mill or whatever laying around. It's a bit far fetched you know.