Building a 20" F/3.3 Renegade Telescope: Part 1

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GordonWaite

GordonWaite

День тому

Documenting the telescope build, including mirror grinding and figuring, and construction of the Renegade telescope body. Part 1 includes prepping the mirror for grinding, spherometry on the molded blank, fabricating a steel/plaster grinding tool, and setting up the fixed-post grinding machine for rough grinding operations.

КОМЕНТАРІ: 106
@everythingquads
@everythingquads 8 років тому
Thanks for publishing your videos, i'm looking forward to the next edition in this series. Great work.
@verdatum
@verdatum 8 років тому
Gordon! I'm overjoyed to see you publishing vids again. You are pretty much unparalleled in the realm of telescope mirror making on UKposts. I'm amazed there isn't more competition for that spot. Keep up the fantastic work!
@kippostar
@kippostar 8 років тому
Do my eyes deceive me?! A series? I can't wait. Good to see you uploading again Gordon!
@Obishman
@Obishman 8 років тому
I´m glad to see you here again!! will you continue with a video series of this particular mirror until the parabolizing stage ? it would be great!! Thanks for your excellent videos!
@aepceo1
@aepceo1 8 років тому
It's great to see you back!!!
@giulianofischetto4394
@giulianofischetto4394 8 років тому
Idolo! Legend! love these tutorials, enjoy the grinding!
@davepastern
@davepastern 5 років тому
bloody amazing stuff Gordon!
@Lex52
@Lex52 5 років тому
Fascinating! Great video
@timcorso6337
@timcorso6337 4 роки тому
What happened to part 2 etc? Was looking forward to a complete job, prior to install :-(
@tonisee2
@tonisee2 Рік тому
Thank you for those extremely educative and information-rich videos! They made me seriously thinking about finishing my roughly grinded mirror from ca 25 years ago... When I watched this video, few questions arised: - are there any important differences between dental plasters or would more or less any of those fit well for grinding tool? - do you make the tool somehow waterproof (it looked like in an another video the same tool is somehow.. more shiny)? - the turf surprised me quite a bit - isn't there the danger that larger particles get stuck in it and may find their way out of it? Maybe it's a general question: what general procedures you follow to keep the machine and tools reasonably clean (I found one of your answers about changing grits and that made perfectly sense!)? - where to learn about using those fixed post grinding machines and theory of using them?
@morningstarx5340
@morningstarx5340 4 роки тому
It might be worth your time to look into marble and granite fabrication tools such as diamond polishing pads and diamond grinder cups. The pads run on a pneumatic polisher, or just an angle grinder, and come in 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 and 3000 grit. A #50 pad would work really well for that beveling, and the polishers they run on have a water connection so both hands can be focused on the work. If you wanted you could run the entire set on the bevels and bring the bevel up to a nice polish. I've polished a ton of glass using those pads. I have a few sets as I program CNCs in the stone industry, as well as do fabrication. Clearly you know your craft much better than I do, and I'm only mentioning it because in my mind it could help. The stone industry in general shares many similarities in regards to cutting and polishing tools with the glass industry.
@shawnpwatsons1
@shawnpwatsons1 Рік тому
You're a genius.
@nkmishra24
@nkmishra24 6 років тому
Mr. Gordon, Indeed great video. Please suggest me where to buy this glass? With best regards Neeraj
@oalithgow
@oalithgow 5 років тому
Awesome Gordon, you are great! Wen I get rich I would buy you a 22" renegade :D... Also, no part 2?
@carlosmero7158
@carlosmero7158 8 років тому
Best regards, all your videos are very good, please can you tell me how I can octener q products you use, to polish and finish the crystals, l'm from Ecuador ( Manabi-Manta). Beforehand l am very grateful.
@K9Megahertz
@K9Megahertz 7 місяців тому
Question for you Gordon (others feel free to comment as well). I've recently started hogging out a 12.5" blank by hand. I've made a similar 6 inch tool as to the one used in this video and I am just using TOT/COC strokes and rotating mirror and tool every so often. I'm not allowing much on overhang but I am sure some is happening. Progress is going well, getting about 0.2mm of depth in the center for about every hour or so of grinding. However I am getting a bit of chipout on the edge mainly on the bevel (~1/8" bevel) itself. They're rather small and none that protrude inward on the facial surface of the mirror more than 1mm or so. I don't feel they're catastrophic and could probably be ground out and compensated for later on with rough grinding with a ceramic tile tool when the time comes and a bit of rebeveling, but I did want to ask if this is normal/expected? Despite your efforts to reduce the chipout using the methods/tips in this video, do you still get some here and there? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Gerald
@K9Megahertz
@K9Megahertz 6 місяців тому
Wanted to circle back on this. Was able to grind down enough in the 120/220 grit phases + a rebevel to get rid of the small chips that were taken out of the edge. Hopefully this helps someone else that ended up in a similar situation. 1-2mm chip extending towards the center is probably the limit here. Any bigger and its going to take quite a bit of grinding to overcome. Depth of the chip plays a factor as well. Probably best to avoid it by keeping the steel nut tool away from the edge at all times during hogging, and let the tile tool do the work on the edge later on. In any event, I've almost finished up 25μ. Maybe another session or two and I'll call it done. Then on to the smaller grains. Gerald
@rocketman4885
@rocketman4885 7 років тому
Hey Gordon! Just wondering do you have a video pointing out how to do the math to figure out what length your secondary mirror should be from the Primary depending on the Diameter? Thanks!
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Here's Mel Bartels' on-line calculator. It may do the job for you: www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/diagonal.htm
@sgalien6661
@sgalien6661 3 роки тому
Nice video, when is part 2?
@newton6664272
@newton6664272 Рік тому
Hi. Very interesting video. But I have a question, how do you determine the f value of the mirror? Thanks in advance.
@RandomFandom1
@RandomFandom1 6 років тому
You should look up how they groove mill stones for grinding grain. The pattern is important to keep equilateral in every direction to avoid a triangular grinding action. Much like a poorly sharpened drill bit. The inconsistencies in grinding plane create a wobble in the ground surface
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Hi, David! There are huge differences between mill stones and mirror grinding tools. Mill stones are designed to slice apart the grains between the stones without causing any damage to the stone. You don't want stone particles in your ground grain! In mirror grinding, you want the abrasive particles to roll between the surfaces, and not be sliced. And in mirror grinding, you want the "grain" or abrasive to stay intact as long as possible, while causing the "stones" to be chipped down on their faces. Getting "stone" chips into the abrasive is the whole point. On a mill stone, the stone does all the work. In mirror grinding, the "grain" does all the work.
@firesurfer
@firesurfer 4 роки тому
@@GordonWaite Veddy interesting!
@astro_zane
@astro_zane 6 років тому
I used the method of "baking in" the tiles (I find using a tile mat is easier than maneuvering dozens of tiles/nuts into place) for my 12" mirror's full-sized tool and it works fabulously! No longer do I have to worry about tiles breaking off or epoxy failing.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Congrats on your success! Making grinding tools isn't too intimidating once you have one under your belt.
@travismiller5548
@travismiller5548 6 років тому
i grind a lot of borosilicate myself... taking the edge off with the dremel seemed sketchy... but gets the job done. after having used resin bonded diamond grinding blades and bits, i hope never to use sintered tools again. i wonder if stained glass grinder drums would be more affordable for you though- seems dremel tools are kinda pricey. you can “sharpen” the drums with dressing stones for longer service life, and in addition to more tool surface at a lower cost, i bet the diamonds run deeper. check out Radiac’s superabrasives catalogue for a daunting variety of badass grinding tools, in sintered or resin.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Thanks for the tips!
@CrossoverManiac
@CrossoverManiac Рік тому
How long does the rough grinding take for your 20" f/3.3 mirror blank?
@attilamadai2694
@attilamadai2694 3 місяці тому
Hi, I just made my first grinding tool out of dental plaster based on the video I found here (thank you very much!!!). But, unfortunately, the tool warped significantly after pouring, during or after solidification. The center of the tool rests in the middle of the mirror, but the edge is curled up, so it wobbles around the center (more than half a millimeter on the edge!). If I drop it on the mirror like this, only the center works, therefore it deepens the glass disc too much, so the focus will be shortened. Has anyone else experienced this warping or distortion phenomenon in the case of grinding tools made of dental plaster? I suspect that the change in volume of the plaster (even if it is minimal) becomes uneven due to the steel or ceramic pieces inserted in it, and this drags its shape: the lower part cannot contract as much due to the metal pieces as the upper, homogeneous part, and this pull up the edge of the disc. How thick should a plaster tool be made so that it does not warp like this? Thanks a lot in advance, Attila
@panther105
@panther105 6 років тому
Nuts vs Ceramic Tiles vs Plain Pitchlap. I'm getting confused which method is best....
@joseplem9422
@joseplem9422 7 років тому
Hola Gordon, gracias por compartir tus experiencias. Te hago una pregunta, cuál es la relación que tiene que tener el diámetro de la herramienta de yeso con el diámetro del espejo primario para que quede esférico?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Hi! I make my grinding and polishing tools about 70% to 75% the diameter of the primary mirror. Most tools in the range of 65% to 80% will work, but the 70-75% range is the best. Thanks!
@joseplem9422
@joseplem9422 7 років тому
Gracias Gordon! Estoy por empezar a hacer un espejo de 350mm hice varios, pero siempre a mano, este lo voy a hacer con máquina y veré cómo sale. Gracias
@twistedhairball
@twistedhairball 4 роки тому
Hi Gordon, I was wondering why you would use the dental plaster rather than a copper plate, like you would in a machinists shop. I imagine it's due to cost and you being able to make them bespoke for each size you need, but are there any other reasons.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 4 роки тому
The dental plaster makes it easy to mold the tool to the exact shape of the mirror. The plaster dries and is ready to use in about 30 minutes, so it is fast. And the plaster isn't too expensive. Plus it is REALLY hard, and has pretty good properties around water. It's about the perfect material.
@tedwilliams3875
@tedwilliams3875 7 років тому
Great video and in formative but overall how much did it cost to do this all yourself? Giving or assuming no one has tools this may be more costly to do for ones self. Giving a 16 inch Dob cost about 2000.00. The assembly itself can be very costly.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
You can put together a simply fixed-post grinding machine for a couple hundred dollars. A plate glass mirror blank might cost $160. The grinding tool is $15. Pitch and abrasives probably $50. You can certainly put together a mirror-making setup for far less than the cost of a single custom mirror. And you can then make as many mirrors as you want. And you can certainly build a better quality Dob yourself compared to the low-end mass-market offerings. But generally the point isn't to save money. It is, instead, to build it for yourself.
@tedwilliams3875
@tedwilliams3875 7 років тому
I was just simply curious that was all! I agree it is about building it for ones self but I was just asking if no one had the materials to do such would it be more cost effective. The interesting thing though is that by your video, I have learned the time it takes to make the mirror. I can understand why telescopes cost so much money. :) Its a lot of work but rewarding if one has the time and patience to do something like this.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Yes, you are spot on. Taking the first look through a telescope where you made the mirror and the body is an incredibly satisfying experience! It does take a fair bit of time, though, but for me it is time well spent and enjoyed.
@rschiwal
@rschiwal 10 місяців тому
Could you please show where to get the glass?
@OlivierSuire
@OlivierSuire 5 років тому
I'm curious to know, since you have a CNC, why you don't use it to grind the mirror ?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 5 років тому
We grind on fixed-post machines that we custom build. They have a computer-controlled x-axis, but it's not really a big factor in grinding. We use the same machine type for rough polishing. When we figure a mirror now, we do use two-axis CNC controlled machines. We have to build the machines ourselves, and write all the software in-house as well. Technology marches on!
@himanshudani9002
@himanshudani9002 4 роки тому
Gordon how does a steel nut tool change shape while grinding? How can we change the radius of curvature of the mirror while grinding with a tool having a fixed radius?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 4 роки тому
A steel nut tool doesn't change radius much at all during grinding. That is the point of using steel tools for production work where you are making multiple identical mirrors. Once you've started grinding with a steel tool, there really isn't any easy way to change the radius. If you need to alter the radius, you need to work with either ceramic tile tools, or glass tools, so the tool can follow the changes in the mirror.
@himanshudani9002
@himanshudani9002 4 роки тому
@@GordonWaite Thank you so much for replying. My concern was that if I cast a steel nut or washer tool against a simply hogged mirror that might not be spherical how would I use that tool for fine grinding? How do I ensure that the hogged mirror is perfectly spherical to cast a perfectly spherical tool?
@poly_hexamethyl
@poly_hexamethyl 3 роки тому
12:30 Just wondering....how can you grind something to within a few nanometers of accuracy when it's sitting on something soft that compresses by millimeters?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 3 роки тому
The mirror is thick, heavy and very rigid. It weighs about 35 pounds. When you sit it down, whatever it is on compresses by some amount. When you put the grinding tool on it, it compresses a little more. But after that point, the weight on the mirror doesn't really vary, and no more compression occurs under the mirror. The grinding motion is basically parallel to the turntable, so the grinding force is horizontal, not vertical. Grinding depends on the geometry of the surfaces in contact, and not so much on what is under the pieces.
@JerseyTom
@JerseyTom 5 років тому
Part 2?
@FKNSENDIT
@FKNSENDIT 5 років тому
I need help please. Where can I get a glass blank ,how thick do I need ,what kind of glass an where to get it please
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 5 років тому
I often use Swift glass in NY. You can use either plate glass or a borosilicate, depending on your budget. For mirrors up to 12.5" thick, you can get by with 1" thick glass.
@rifatahmed4659
@rifatahmed4659 7 років тому
hello, I'm a begginer and I'm a bit confused is the mirror tool is curved on top or is it flat? as I'm working on a mirror which is not pregenerated.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
If your mirror is not pre-generated, then you start with a flat tool. If your mirror has a generated curve, then you mold a tool to the mirror, so they both have the same curvature.
@Guitcad1
@Guitcad1 3 роки тому
Just out of curiosity, if I were going to buy a mirror like that, what should I expect to spend?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 3 роки тому
About $9,000
@Guitcad1
@Guitcad1 3 роки тому
@@GordonWaite Some day.
@dennisrkb
@dennisrkb 4 роки тому
Hey Gordon do you make mirrors to order?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 4 роки тому
Sure. Please contact me through regular email (gordon at waiteresearch.com)
@reynoldfrancis6060
@reynoldfrancis6060 2 роки тому
Sir, what size pitch lap and tool should I use for a 12 inch mirror? I want to finish at F/10
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 2 роки тому
Hand work or machine? Hand work, 12" for grinding, 12" for polishing, 5" for figuring. Machine work, 9" for grinding and polishing, 5" for figuring.
@reynoldfrancis6060
@reynoldfrancis6060 2 роки тому
@@GordonWaite thanks a ton.
@cygnus1129
@cygnus1129 6 років тому
Oddly satisfying...10:30
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
That's sometimes what I think after watching the grinding machine go around for an hour or two! ;)
@DownhillAllTheWay
@DownhillAllTheWay 6 років тому
Do you make a new grinding tool for each grade of grit?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
You use just one grinding tool for all of the grinding on a mirror. Sometimes you can even get two or three mirrors out of one tool. But if you have a really big and deep mirror, you might use one up just for the curve generation. After grinding, you make a different kind of tool for polishing.
@DownhillAllTheWay
@DownhillAllTheWay 6 років тому
Thanks Gordon. I don't doubt your word, but the reason I asked was for the concern of getting rid of every grain of coarser grit when going to a finer one. That grinding tool just looked to me like something that could easily hide bits of grit in its surface.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
You don't really have to worry about grit contamination from the tool very much, unless a tool has really deep holes in it for some unknown reason. A quick scrub with a toothbrush takes care of any clinging abrasive. I don't even clean the tool before an abrasive change during fine grinding. If I've just used 25-micron, the mirror has pits associated with that size. If I squirt on some 12-micron and just continue, any 25-micron is going to make the same size pits that are already on the mirror. Basically, any remaining abrasive is broken down right away. So 25-micron particles become 12-micron particles after just a few minutes grinding. Since an abrasive is used for maybe 30 minutes to an hour, there is plenty of time to eliminate the previous pits, and get a good, well-ground surface.
8 років тому
Is very intersting! I can't find the part 2 of this video ¿Is it uploaded to YT, Mr. Waite??
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Hi! Part 2 will be up shortly. Thanks!
7 років тому
Thak You! I'm waiting 4 ! :-)
@Obishman
@Obishman 7 років тому
Hello Gordon, how is that 20" F/3.3 going?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Emerson is cutting more video, so we should have further episodes out this week. Thanks for asking! -Gordon
@Obishman
@Obishman 7 років тому
Great! thanks for your answer
@arghyadeepjana
@arghyadeepjana 3 роки тому
Where is the part 2!!!!!!!
@billlacasse9414
@billlacasse9414 6 років тому
How much should one expect to pay for a glass this size?
@travismiller5548
@travismiller5548 6 років тому
Bill LaCasse also wondering
@GenesisRussell-jt2rp
@GenesisRussell-jt2rp 5 років тому
how many arms can you spare
@XPFTP
@XPFTP 4 роки тому
iam suprised the inout carpet doesnt let the mirror move up n down on the ops side of the weight.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 4 роки тому
The artificial turf is quite stiff, and the tool extends past the center of the mirror. And the mirror is pretty heavy. Never had an issue with up and down movement, though the mirror will often turn a little around its center, which is actually a good thing.
@ahmadfouadassaf6856
@ahmadfouadassaf6856 5 місяців тому
جميل جدا
@alexanderrad3458
@alexanderrad3458 6 років тому
Why steel nuts over tar?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
You use steel or ceramic tile during the grinding stages, then switch to pitch for polishing work.
@donation1913
@donation1913 7 років тому
I'd like to see someone attempt a multiple mirror telescope, say 7 10" mirrors. ;-P
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
That's very difficult from a technical viewpoint. They make huge professional telescopes like that, but the mechanical parts are so expensive that they don't make sense on mirrors this small. It would be cheaper to build a 25" or 30" monolithic telescope that to make such a small MMT.
@donation1913
@donation1913 7 років тому
OK, multiple separate mirrors to combine resolving in a single telescope, not practical for the hobbyist. Would that also apply to a single composite reflector built out of multiple pieces, say hexagons, 7, 19, 37 or 61 pieces? 7 20" hexagons would provide a >60" composite mirror. On grinding mirrors: Can diamond grinders, like those used for knives or masonry, be used? Can grinding be done with a CNC table, example would be a Torchmate (40 thousandths accuracy) or similar? I was thinking with CNC it may be easier to work on individual hexagon pieces to get them close (hogged out) to the desired parabolic shape.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 7 років тому
Don Ation IMHO, any effort to combine multiple individually-fabricated mirrors is going to be too expensive for amateur-level optics. There are plenty of applications for diamond tooling in mirror making. I use diamond blades often to hog out glass on mirrors that start with a flat face. That's common. Diamond tooling is relatively cheap. On the CNC end, I have computer-controlled capability. It lets me automate some of the work so I don't have to tend the machine quite so often. It probably isn't worth the effort unless you are making lots of mirrors in a production setting.
@nil233x
@nil233x 6 років тому
It's been a year where is part 2?
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Working on it!
@josephwilliamcosta
@josephwilliamcosta 6 років тому
Where is the rest of the series???
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Working on it!
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
I'll get there. We have a huge backup of video that needs to be edited, but there's way too much mirror-making and telescope-making going on to get the video done. I'll try harder!
@MrRayopt
@MrRayopt 4 роки тому
I can't afford the glass anymore
@RandomFandom1
@RandomFandom1 6 років тому
Why not get a laser measurement tool. It can read on the fly through the slurry. It can also show accurate measurements up to 10 decimal places. Impossibly accurate
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 6 років тому
Hi, David! I'm sure you are an expert on precision measurement, so I hesitate to disagree. The width of a silicon atom is .00000000146 inches. So you are claiming that your 10-decimal-place laser can look through the crud on my mirror, and resolve 14.6 units on a silicon atom in the glass? That would mean you could easily resolve the silicon atom and oxygen atoms in each molecule of glass! The resolution of a really good electron microscope is only about .00000000390 inches, so your laser would have 39 times the resolution of a good electron microscope. I don't have room for an electron microscope in my grinding shop, especially sitting above my mirror! And I'm guessing that I can't afford a measurement machine that has 39 times the resolution of an electron microscope. But if you have a Harbor Freight Item # on that laser, pass it along and I will check it out for sure!
@metingokbulut837
@metingokbulut837 10 місяців тому
🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷💯💯💯💯👍👍👍👍
@defeber65
@defeber65 Рік тому
Why do you still juse imperial inches, while the rest of the world are us in metres?
@user-ie8pr2vw2o
@user-ie8pr2vw2o 4 роки тому
Из серии нихера не понятно, но очень интересно
@ALSomthin
@ALSomthin 5 років тому
Just dont get thst plaster in your sink drain it can really plug things up.
@GordonWaite
@GordonWaite 5 років тому
Yes, I always dump the old plaster into a bag and let it dry and just put it in the garbage.
@mostafasaadinasab6338
@mostafasaadinasab6338 4 роки тому
#Awards#Viele#danke#Liebe# Soll schönen ist arbeiten Du bist schon.
@lalski08
@lalski08 4 роки тому
waste of time watching this with no follow ups
@User0000000000000004
@User0000000000000004 4 роки тому
Dude. Serious. Why do you say "actually" so much? You're putting it in about every other sentence. It's all I can hear you say. "blah blah blah ACTUALLY blah blah ACTUALLY blah ACTUALLY blah blah blah ACTUALLY."
@alexdawson7266
@alexdawson7266 4 роки тому
If you'll allow me to address this. For science's sake, for clarity, to ensure good communication on technical operations, you should always forego the artistic aspect of grammar even if it requires repitition. It's only logical as Spock would say. Live long and perspire. Excellent video Mr. Waite.
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