Those words carry the Curse of Woke

Written for Larry Fink.

I hear that phrase and it's an automatic red flag. Avoid at all costs.

You should have a movie where it starts that phrase , then it shows them a movie about them. We will call it Idiocracy 2.

They say 'updated for a modern audience'; I hear 'pumped full of SJW woke propaganda'.

Yeah, now it's, "When it comes to my pronouns, I prefer multiple choice."

Like how he got those scars.

@@Anoneemus_Noenayme I ain't reading all that, but the idea with Moore's Joker and most Jokers since Moore's is to try and convince Batman that anybody could be crazy with just "one bad day," which makes Batman's entire mission and ideology redundant. It's why Joker tortures Gordon in TKJ, trying to push Gordon to the point of killing Joker for revenge and making him break his moral code which ultimately fails and validates Batman's ideology when Gordon tells Batman he wants Joker brought in "by the book." Joker's backstory does not ultimately matter because his whole purpose as a character is to be an unchanging flat arc monolith that tries to force the rest of the world to bend to him.

​@@Anoneemus_Noenayme 👍

I like the way he wrote it, too. The Joker, himself, has no idea how he came to be, so he decided to just roll with it.

Ba dum, tsh!

take my like sir

Goddamnit.

Which is odd, because the X-men fit the DC universe far better, thematically. DC: OHHH THE BURDEN OF BEING A HERO. The X-Men: OHHH THE BURDEN OF BEING A MUTANT.

Oh you C:

Ironically, it was corporate that created these characters in the first place. They always love to ruin what made them so successful

@@salmanhanifa7853 I should have edited my comment to *Modern Corporate. Then it would have made more sense. But what done is done.

​@@salmanhanifa7853 No, it was people like Bill Finger and Bob Kane.

⁠@@salmanhanifa7853corporate didn’t make these characters, passionate up-and-coming artists with imagination did. Corporate eventually bought the rights so that they could milk them for every last drop, until people stopped caring and moved onto the next thing.

​@Nite-Mite false. Virtually all comic book characters made from marvel and dc from the beginning to the 90s were made by artists under the employ of the company and the company owned those characters

Worse yet, that he might not have been pushed at all. Evil is a real thing, he could’ve lifted a life just like yours or mine, had a perfectly fine childhood, and still decided to be evil.

That's what makes him the perfect foil. He is chaos incarnate. He could be a downtrodden hobby or an Eldritch manifestation of chaotic energy, the Joker would still work. Because ultimately, no origin matters.

Or in other words, all it takes to reduce the sanest man alive to madness is *_one bad day._*

Sounds like lazy writing to me

What do you think of a franchise movie series that plays of multiple choice of his origin stories. With same/similar casting. Write them well under the Joker model. What drives a man into absolute madness. The answer is anything.

Came here to say this

That actually explains a lot, interesting!

Expertly said. When I watched DK, after the random "truck full of soldiers" line, I immediately thought _"okay yeah, I get it, he's a creation of The System, probably a burned spook or an operative they left out to die"_ so I couldn't agree more.

Even during the attendant assassination of Gordon, we saw the Joker without his face paint and nobody question why a police officer was horrifically disfigure considering it’s Gotham

Nolan might have even written that Joker with that origin in mind but he was smart enough to leave it ambiguous. Joker has at least 3 different origin stories in that movie, although he didn't have time to tell Batman the 3rd before getting hurled off a building, and because of the way Heath Ledger delivered them, any of them could have been true. "A truck full of soldiers will be blown up" could have been a 4th origin that was slipped in but Joker says it as though it's just a random example of how chaotic the world is. It was so casual that it flies over many peoples heads on their first watch but because of that, you may look back on the film in hindsight and think "wait, is THAT what happened to him?" without ever getting a definitive answer.

@@tomnorton4277 A mystery box, properly understood. Jar Jar Abrams has the right idea, but no earthly idea how to deliver it.

I mean he was kind of still a villain though it's been a long time but weren't there copy cats an still a joker gang. It like he still heald influence an control but more in a ideological way not a physical way. Simlier to commusnism or facisism

Batman is to Dollar Comics (yes, that's where "DC" comes from) as Scooby Doo was to the Warners and is to WBD.

Batman is the only character DC never did a 100% reboot (only updates) That's why his titles work

..and yet they let absolute HACKS ruin them, lately ones named Tom for some reason.

@@Code7Unltd dc stands for detective comics idk where you got your info from

Its unfortunate how under utilized scarecrow was.

I wish that was something they focused on more. His attempts at killing people are barely ever clown-themed or comedic anymore. Now his gimmick is simply killing droves of people without any kind of clever carnival twist. They only really use the Joker gas/venom to do the eerie smile thing, but other than that he just shoots people or blows them up.

​@@a_fine_edition2746I always liked the saw aspect of joker it makes it entertaining

I'm sick of "evil superman" and "sympathetic psychopathic killer"

There’s more version of “evil Superman” than the actual good Superman these days

Though it does tell you all you need to know about the morals of the people in charge of writing and greenlighting this tripe.

This is one of the reasons why I don't see any appeal in the Suicide Squad game (aside from it being sold as a live service). Evil Superman. Omni Man, Homelander, Injustice, Brightburn, Zack Snyder's Justice League, everything is a fucking evil Superman now.

@@mac1991sethhow is live-service appealing?

Wasn't DC pure camp before the 80's anyway?

if I recall correctly, didn't The Joker go on a hiatus for a while after that run because it was so bad?

@natehoustman in the seventies they started shifting to more balanced stories. Batman in particular went back to his detective roots with a heavy noir emphasis.

Let me just quietly kick my Oracle poster a bit further under the bed...

i told you this guy is savage, you can't sum him up, everything he spits is epic 😅😅

Yep. I heard him say that and just said, "oh..."

RIP Darren Drozdov

Joker himself would be grudgingly impressed with that punchline.

this guy is a legend man! 🥰😎

Pisses me off to this day. City had the perfect send-off for him. Then they had to slap him into Origins and Knight which took away from the greatness of having Bane finally represented properly in a Batman game and an awesome Scarecrow (voiced by John Noble no less!) which pretty much ruined those games for me

Best recent Joker was in Arkham City Origins and Troy Baker was a better Joker than Hamil himself would have been in that.

Exactly. What modern Hollywood writers don't seem to get is that we love our villains for being, well.. villains. Evil, cruel, with no tragic backstory ie. daddy issues, kicked out of their jobs, being victims of racism, etc. A little foreshadowing is always good but turning it into a full soap opera kind of drama always ends up bad. Just look at Star Wars.

He was super evil with Adam West...

Joker was never evil; he's just so completely out of his mind there's few other words to describe him.

amd overused, no wonder joker is nothing but memes now

Bullshit, I miss when he told jokes and threw fish at people. Bring back 60s Batman!

Same thing goes for Arkham Origins. What, you thought this was going to be an opportunity for the more obscure members of Batman's Rogues Gallery to show their stuff? Hell no! The Joker bursts in halfway through the game and refuses to leave.

Origins had kinda the same problem what with marketing itself on Black Mask and the 8 assassins, then pretty early on swapping Mask out for Joker.

Agreed I disliked that so much Scarecrow finally getting something and the Joker ruins cause Rocksteady is in love with him.

Name/brand recognition of Deception

​@@GodOfOrphansim still mad about that

As long as he says that every post BTAS Harley sucks.

@@scockery, I’d be perfectly fine with Joker being a musical if they made Harley Quinn and Ivy Love Lanterns as well as Joker being a Compassionate Lantern, but clearly the only time sympathetic villains are written correctly is in the One Piece manga series, and I’d much rather have villains doing villain shit for the sake of being purely evil like Ozai from Avatar the Last Airbender and DarkSeid from Superman comics.

@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr I wouldn't say One Piece only. But manga does make sympathetic villains more understandable.

good god I'm so sick of HQ. That bitch was run into the ground after her premiere in B:TAS. Just overused to the point of annoyance. I'd take a "Holy smokes, Batman!" type Robin over a constant "Mista J" / "Puddin" HQ every five damn seconds. Shit was beyond annoying. Then the movies came out and I didn't think it was possible to make her worse...but they did it.

uh, Burgess Meredith

@@Anoneemus_Noenayme The best part was when it finally ended. I have a suspicion that the same fanboys who simp for that waste of 3 hours are the same ones who praise PlayStation interactive movies.

​@@Anoneemus_Noenaymethey're giving him a show to go along with the trilogy. They're trying to do an mcu thing.

DeVito was great as penguin! I really can't think of anyone who could've played that role better!

The panguin in the shitty Bruce Wayne show is pretty good.

Better yet, toss Bruce Wayne altogether and make a Paul Kersey comic.

What killed the dinosaurs? ... THE ICE AGE 🥶

​@@tylere.8436 Chill out

Mr freeze sucks and is very overrated. I want to see a Batman movie where he fights Deathstroke as the main antagonist. That would be $$.

I think the Riddler has been sorely underused, he's great because he's also completely nuts but in a more cerebral fashion.

It all went downhill when the no kill rule became a major focal point for the character and not just some detail.

The animated series was the peak

and then you get the modern garbage, the joker is just a pointless husk at this point?

Yeah, I lost any interest when they started having three Jokers, all of whom are allegedly immortal, one of who I think lives in Baltimore, ignoring the fact that the normal residents of Baltimore are way more dangerous than the Joker. Look it up.

Growing up watching the Batman Animated Series Joker was never my favourite Batman villain. However, after watching how the internet revered him so much...I got sick him. I can suspend my disbelief of Batman fighting god-level beings from space and other dimensions but having the Joker can also easily evade powerful superheroes on a regular basis is just too much. The world filled with superheroes went into chaos because a man in a bat costume couldn't control a crazy clown.

I'm not

And Batman’s

Preach

Even Spider-Man doesn’t rely this much on the Goblin.

@@SuperNeos2I think because Spidey at least has 2 main supervillains when you get tired of Gobby you've always got Ock. But Batman doesn't really have that he just has Joker and the rest are at that Electro, Kraven level.

@@drdeesnutts48 That's partially because Gobby spent a couple decades really and truly dead before they decided that they needed a live Norman for whatever story line they _had_ to tell. I also find it interesting that y'all have mentioned two members of Spidey's rogues without bringing up Venom, his evil-but-stronger duplicate, as opposed to the man that killed the woman he loved or the guy who stole his life.

@@boobah5643I'm not sure if he even counts as part of it anymore. He's been a "hero" for a long time now and has his own rogue's gallery (which admittedly is pretty weak outside of Carnage).

​@@boobah5643he could have easily been just as potent a Nemesis but he got so popular they decided to make him an anti-hero. Only then to realize that they still wanted a villians symbiote and made carnage, who now gets sandwiched between Hobby and Ock

Penchant? Not perchance

woooooo woooooooooh!

You get your lovin' on the run?

​@@TheDr.Magnumno but my IRL name is Maurice...

...and most of them were just the Shadow's sloppy seconds.

I prefer Scarecrow but no one has ever done the character the justice he really deserves...

That's why batman the animated series will never be topped by fleshbag cosplay onscreen.

@@Mr.Bones1983 yeah I wanted to see him way more in the Nolan trilogy, Murphy was a good cast.

I've never found his rogue's gallery to be that impressive especially when you consider Spidey's.

It's just a ripoff of a couple of The Shadow villains with the design of The man who laughs. That "chaos" and supposed deepness bs is not even two decades old. And that was also ripped off from a Shadow story.

Sadly that is kind of happening as there is a Suicide Squad anime and Joker is in it...and his design is fucking awful.

Thank God Dini finally grew the balls to kill him off for good in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.

In the words from Michael Jai White, "Enough, from the clown!"

TAS used a lot of different villains, at least. It only really got bad when the Bat-Embargo hit the DCAU and the Joker was pretty much the only established Batman villain (aside from Harley) that was able to be used consistently.

Funny thing is The Animated Series had a diverse cast and several good one-off villains. The Joker was probably a little overused, but he's not even in a quarter of TAS episodes. DC in the 2000s has struggled to make an interesting and solid assemble cast for Batman since The Animated Series. It's a shame. The Batman and Joker are greater characters, but you can only watch them together so many times before it's repetitive.

It's like what they did with Wolverine. They changed so much of the origin over and over and by the end it was IMO dumb. At least they got rid of him being some weird type of mutant along with sabretooth, I'm tired and forget the name, but they went and ruined the mystery. The issue, in xmen, that he casually tell Mariko his name was Logan was huge! A decade later it's still vague but then we get a huge overblown story and anything interesting about the character is gone. Not that he wasn't so milked by that point that you could hear the cows mooing behind him

*SupposeD. There's a D in the word. Never forget to give the D. Suppose and SupposeD are two different words.

brad dourif would absolutely have been an interesting choice. shocked he hasnt done more voice acting and gotten to play him that way

Harley and Deadpool make me want to pull out my hair and stuff it into my eyes.

​@Mr.Bones1983 currently the same with Spiderman

@@theclowninghasbegun3442 Specifically that multiverse/Miles bullshit. Just give us Mayday dammit!

@@numbersandletters0i608 It's kind of a shame she has never made it out of _her_ Marvel reboot universe.

@@boobah5643 Marvel will unironically create a whole new ultimate universe where Peter is already married with kids before the spider-bite before letting Mayday have her own comic again. I won't lie I'm as annoyed and frustrated as I am intrigued.

its because batman is all that is selling. and thats barely selling.

On that list of Batman villain stereotypes, you forgot to mention ex-military scrubs and/or super soldier rejects, combined with idiots who became self-entitled assholes just because they got a doctorate. Don't get me wrong, I love bad guys like Deathstroke and Hugo Strange. But at the same time, it feels like there's always a broken-down community college in Gotham located right down the road from DC Comics' version of Fort Polk.

Yeah I think only Spider-Man’s rogues are up there as comics best

@@BlueBlazeKing I'd say spiderman's rouges are neck and neck with the flash's, but they just don't have the same 'it' Factor as Batman's.

​@@christopherdeleon2095Captain Cold is seriously underrated, guy's a pretty interesting villain, in some aspects I prefer him over Prof. Zoom though both are up there.

@@g.sergiusfidenas6650 Is Captain Cold actually a villain though? he could kill an insane amount of people very easily if he really wanted to and that includes superheroes. I'd say he's more of a foil to the Flash than a proper villain.

Even Carnage doesn’t get that much abuse by the editorial team and I say this as a huge Carnage fan.

Joker to Carnage is like Baki to Jojo. One of them tries to throw every ounce of pseudo-scientific bullshit you can imagine at you even though you just came here for the chaos (Baki), while the other one is *arguably* easier to explain because of all the supernatural stuff that can (potentially) warp reality (Jojo). The real problem with that analogy just now is that Joker was always a convoluted mess of a character (even without all the bad writing over the years) to point where Cletus *and* Carnage look normal by comparison.

SuperNeos2 if you’re saying it as a huge Carnage fan isn’t your opinion more likely to be wrong? If you’re a huge fan then you might not notice how badly he was overused because you would love seeing him.

Carnage was indeed based on Joker. Don't ask me for the source though, I just watched some youtuber.

They couldn't help but shove him into The Batman end credits.

@@stinkfinga4918 He's not gonna be the main villain though matt reeves confirmed, its just called world building, pattinsons batman and joker have already established a relationship shown in the 5 min deleted scene, joker is also essential to batman's world/story whether you like it or not. Its gonna be cool seeing Pattinson and his joker have that hannibal lector dynamic in arkham

@geordiemc4571 joker is not essential unless you can't write a good story, which The Batman was not, and neither will its sequel be. I guess that's why they're aping silence of the lambs then.

@@stinkfinga4918 Because they complete each other. There is no way one will survive without the other especially joker. Bruce cannot stay away from his cape and the joker cannot stay away from him. Batman is like a addiction to him ,an addiction that he does not want to leave that's why he keeps coming back for him, no matter how difficult or dangerous it is to him. Batman needs the Joker because he has an intensely flawed understanding of morality that binds him to Joker, and honestly, I consider this to be one of the greatest unintentional character relationships I’ve ever seen. The Joker will never stop. Even if he one day breaks Batman, he will continue to kill and torture people so long as he is alive. There is no hope of rehabilitation for him, and locking him up is endlessly ineffective. The only way to stop Joker is to kill him.But Batman won’t do it, because he’s too much of a child to consider the possibility that becoming a monster is a worthy price for saving people. So they both need each other. Joker needs him to prove to himself that morality and decency are ridiculous lies with no basis in reality, and Batman needs him to prove to himself that he is still a good person, that he has not yet become a monster. Batman needs the Joker because, for him, winning a philosophical debate is more important than saving lives. That’s why their relationship is unintentional and why it’s so interesting. Also the batman 2022 is easily the best live action batman movie no debate just stop

Harley Quinn started out basically as a gun moll whose story was inexorably tied to the Joker. Then comic nerds started fapping to her and she became fetish fuel. Then feminists got a hold of her and she became annoying.

they definitely turned a poptart into a 5 star feast.

Please no. Don't put that out into the universe. With the way entertainment is nowadays that's a nightmarish idea. See the new Hercules for reference.

Hell, give me Black Mask. Im still mad about Origins dropping him pretty early on

i'm drunk too, no judgement here ❤

_Truth._ The Joker's been "reimagined" like five different times in my lifetime alone, and I haven't even hit three decades on this rock yet!

True, but I never really like him being all romantic with Vicki Vale.

@@salmanhanifa7853 Agreed, only downside, but otherwise perfect imo.

Cesar Romero is best Joker.

His joker was terrible

There isn't one?

To be honest, deapite leaving a few hanging plot threads, THREE JOKERS is a pretty good jumping off point for the franchise as a whole (far better than the gorgeously drawn but abysmally written BATMAN & JOKER: THE DEADLY DUO).

best joker was 90s after school cartoon one

I feel like heaths death makes his version more iconic than it deserves. Nicholson nailed the role and ledger was just and edgelord of the times

@@jlogan2228 I agree. I don't dislike Heath but he's not the definitive Joker to me.

Just feels like 2 different versions of Jokers to be honest. Jack representing the goofy but sadistic killer from the comics. Heath being that agent of chaos in a real world setting

It's funny, you can tell the age of someone when you ask which Joker is your favorite. Nothing wrong with that, just interesting to see. I find the Joker in the live action TV series in the 70s to be toward the top. Not because of the performance, but because the actor refused to shave his mustache for the entire series and they just put white makeup over it, a very joker move there. I honestly appreciate them all...except Jason Leto... FYI Heath is my fav.

Yeah, I was wondering if anyone else was going to comment on this. Did I miss something or did a joke go over my head? Was there supposed to be audio at that point, but it was edited out for copyright reasons or something else entirely?

@@nicholas-_-6974 It was "Ace of Spades" according to the credits.

For the record, good rant!

@@SavoxYT I'll go back to my corner now.