More like 20

and fighting games

And starcraft

I play half life with my dad and he is much better than me jest because he has been playing for a very long time

And GunZ: The Duel

Their Spy tutorial is abhorrent

I love the pfp, is it the bullet kin from enter the gungeon?

yeah... 10/10

I don't mind basic tutorials, but TF2 needs to inform players of its mechanics, especially for movement. The fact that at no point the game mentions that you can crouch jump to reach higher platforms or air strafe to control your movement in mid-air is a crime. I remember the first time I learned of crouch jumping was on a Saxton Hale server when I asked in chat how everyone was reaching a specific elevated location as classes without extra jump mobility. That blew my mind. I had already been playing TF2 for weeks at that point

based

Yes, but have you tried to play said tutorial? Last time I checked, it didn’t work. Sure, one or two classes sometimes do, but it’s not ever been a source of help, which is unfortunate af.

@@zachrobinson8357 personally honest, its bene years, and i know they don't cover the finer details of each class and their unlocks. iirc, they were made for launch tf and really havent been updated. hell SFM still uses a version of tf2 that doesnt allow you to pick up buildings.

the coach function doesn't work because matchmaking system is now ad-hoc

@@pongpong8325 ah... awww

Lol tf2 has tutorial for 4 classes... And the menotr mode is heavely outdated, dosent explain anything well, and in general sucks...

Agreed

No, because not nearly everyone plays ranked, and even if they do, it's more frustrating because you just get stuck on a certain rank

@@hobbyl0s he isn't talking about ranked matchmaking but about a hidden ranking system that runs in the background. many games do that so even if you don't play "ranked" there is a skill determination in the background which ranks you but doesn't get shown. this often is mostly (even if not fully) seperated from your "ranked" rank. on the note of this system: the smurfing is probably the biggest problem. for cheap games or even worse free 2 play games the new-player-rank-expirience can be just way more awfull than in the average ranks. in my opinion you can see that especially well in overwatch where players with levels under 20 or a little bit above that join (the progress up to 20 is extremly fast) and not only play theire hero like they mastered it but also got perfect map knowledge giving newer players who lack the skill AND the map knowledge absolutely no chance. and the biggest problem here is that smurfs abbuse the hidden ranking system because it gives them an easy oppertunity to explicitly target low-skilled players. point is even if you want to create an enviorment that is as fair as possible there will still be people who find ways to abbuse it so they can raise theire own egos with destroying the fun of others.

Yeah, something like that would be better for some games. I know when I was trying to get into Halo MCC it kept matching me with teams WAY WAY higher level and the match turned into an incredbly unfun massacre

Somewhere around 2015 I've been playing a lot of Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance in singleplayer missions and with friends a few times. I later wanted to try multiplayer (using a community made modded version as the core game isn't well optimised or balanced for multiplayer) and any ranked match I tried my opponent destroyed me with 0 effort. One of them even started asking how I managed to get such a low rating (it was starting rating, it wouldn't even go lower from the losses) and when I told that I'm new he went "Ohhhh" I think some of them haven't met a new player literally ever.

I guess this is why nowadays pvp games can release publicly so quick and so many of them, because they don't include AI bots to let players play against/with and won't be bothering to do AI behaviour with much in-depth.

@@Ngong8 and then you have games that allow you to play against bots *but* require internet connection to play.

@@TheAzorg One of the examples? Latest version of Starcraft 1 do count I guess...

Yeah the ones which had those are removed or the game is abandoned.

@Beaverish Buck Teeth what do you mean with bots are cringe?

To be fair it's just a much trickier coding problem to make an AI for an FPS.

Honestly i love playing fighting games with friends but half the time fighting game AI is insane

nice pfp

Imagine if fps bots were as good as Shroud. That would be scary

I remember when I tried MK11, the AI just completely wiped the floor with me. I can't even imagine playing against real people, that must be insane...

dota 2 has a coaching system that works very well and is similar to what you're describing

escape from tarkov has something like this, they're called sherpas

@@cheesepepperoni7418 What a cursed name, though

I just posted the same in a different thread. You'd need to base compensation on progress, which can be hard to measure, if you want to incentivize the mentors to teach well instead of just sorta idling about for free rewards. You'd also probably get people gaming the system by coaching smurfs, but those are a separate problem anyways.

Team Fortress 2 used to have this (it technically still does but it either doesn't work or nobody just uses it)

oi mate then let me tell you the following: i never played LoL and got only a few hours in Dota 2. a few months ago i tried LoL because it looked like something at least worth to try. the tutorial is completely useless as it teaches you the very basics but not why you *should* do what you can do and it in no way teached me a way to determine for my self what to do in certain situations. so i was sitting there in LoL just knowing the controlls, the goal of a match and how to buy items and was expected to find out on my self which of all these heroes i should pick what purpose the speciffic heroes fullfills and how i should play with that hero. i didn't even knew where to go when and my teammates weren't usefull either. THIS was one of the most horrible new-player expiriences i ever had in any game as i really just walked around like a headless goose trying to figure out what i'm supposed to do (besides mindlessly slappign minions)! after 3 tries i simply uninstalled it as it wasn't fun. i think if you watched some streams/let's plays and hop in after some time you could have a pretty good experience as you know the game at least a bit and not only fundamentals. but going in completely blind (just like you should expect it from a new player) is awfull.

Do those games really draw in new players though? I recently picked LoL up again with a couple friends, some had not played before so had fresh accounts, and almost every single game the low level players we queued into were very obvious smurfs, with the very occasional genuine noob sprinkled in going 0/20/5

@@Buttersaemmel My brother said he gave up either Dota or LoL on the first play-trough because he got death threats for not knowing how to play.

With how much content League has I can't believe seasoned players still play it. If Valorant ever hits 150 agents I will be out entirely.

Dota 2 has good noob mode with 15 or so characters that's easy to play with specific roleplay. So if you liked archer you start to go deep into other characters of same class.

Another thing I'd like to add (which is somewhat unique to hunt): You can finish entire matches without even encountering players. You still have to make many choices, you're still really playing the game, even if you end up getting stomped. Most games, when you're getting stomped, you learn nothing, and end up staring longer at a respawn/requeue screen than actually playing

Gonna be honest tutorial and trails are very pointless. The biggest thing is actually having decent match making for bad players. It’s also the type of game you shouldn’t play alone, playing with a better friend is the very best way to improve. I guess I can’t really speak for low star players but it seems that 3 and 4 stars is a hilariously weird bracket were everyone is bad so the game becomes very strange. Trainee mode is great since new players will get curb stomped by even some of the very worst players so their deaths don’t matter nearly as much.

Fun fact: Elo is not an acronym, it's the last name of the person who invented that system. You don't have to capitalize the whole word :)

Counterpoint. After 50 hours SBMM becomes smurf hell. Just turn off SBMM? Solo play becomes 1 clicks on par with AK rounds is CS GO at 5* and 6* lobbies compounded by the fact that you can see the lobbies skill level in all games now (PS. for a rather long time SBMM players were getting matched with non-SBMM players meaning the lobbies were identical). Anyway a playerbase will optimize the fun out of any pvp oriented game, and that's true for hunt as well. If you're suggesting Hunt has avoided the pitfalls of modern competitive games I would challenge that statement by saying it's just as guilty if not more egregious with it than other competitive games. As a side note, me and my friends have a little game. We call it "Guess how many times he bought the game." Where whenever we die to a 2.5+ KDA player we guess how many smurf accounts they've gone through based on their rate of stat accumulation.

shut up advertiser

Clickbait done right

He's an average veritasium enjoyer

@@CiDK veritasium gang rise up

Science youtuber changes gaming youtuber's life with this one simple trick!

His titles are always insanely clickable. And not like it's a lie or anything. It's just top-tier marketing

I feel you. I’ve had the opportunity during the pandemic to become a ‘player’ and it’s a different experience to when I didn’t have much time.

This is a bit late but battlefields like 1, 4, and 5 are pretty good and are very uncompetitive due to the sheer size of teams. It’s pretty easy to learn and you can do well with a lot of the guns so it’s not like you’ll have to grind for hours to get good stuff (at least in 5 because that’s the one I play)

@@markercrayon457 tf2 as well, the 12v12 allows room to goof off, and in battlefront its 20v20

If you want something with co-op, I'd recommend warface, pve and spec ops is fun, pvp is full of sweats on the advanced servers

left 4 dead 2 shesh

I agree with everything, and i'm just adding to that for anyone else that's reading. To have a coach to say stuff like "this room is often guarded" or "check those angles", etc, then the game must be played with real people first so the devs could observe those most used tactics, unless the devs already predicted it.

r6 has that already basically

Or another good example are “you have a teammate watch out for teamkills” and “They have a clash you’re fucked”

but the situations in R6 are fantastic because they are still really difficult for new players and allow them to learn the maps and operators

man i've only gotten decent in r6 after about 300-ish hours where i can get kills consistently and have good-ish recoil control and i still often get caught off-guard by kapkan EDDs and frost traps because i rushed in as amaru with a shotgun. never played ranked because heard it's a hellhole and there's not really a reason to play it because plats joins quick match too, especially in SEA servers, there's a hell ton of veterans in quick match since i got the game for the first time. hell not even quick match, in fucking newcomer i felt like i wasn't going against new players and instead veterans that has been playing since launch and made a smurf account

Sadly they didn't add the titans

@@VoltFall it would've been a cool addition, but I don't know if it would've worked

@@certified9104 yeah you got a point, it's supposed to be a more grounded version of Titanfall, so basically Titanfall but not Titanfall If that makes sense

Yea where as I came from cs and wz. So my aim was good, but my movement and playstyle sucked

I really ought to play titanfall 2

God I miss Titanfall 2. Its campaign is genuinely a great tutorial for the multiplayer

@@fallongarens6734 Same. Recently I tried getting back into csgo but it's just not fun to get clapped early because of 0 positioning knowledge and then have to suffer through watching your silver teammates yell at eachother over voice chat. I'm just gonna go back and replay the campaign of tf2

A compaign is definitely better than a tutorial because tutorials tend to be boring.

The main problem with a campaign, especially when the game is a bit older, is the fact that most of the time, when there is content added and the game changes the campaign stays the exact same. That means that if they were reliant on a weapon that was very strong in general at launch time and then hop into MP with it, they find out just how much it got nerfed in the 2nd worst way possible.

Sometimes players in the lower skill groups are still quite good at the game such as in cs and much better than new players

While that would be the ideal, if there aren't enough players available that are your skill level, then the system automatically matches you with other skill levels to avoid having you wait 30 minutes between each match. This results in getting players way above or below your skill level, which just doesn't do anything if it happens consistently. Had this happen with multiple games, and it's made me completely quit multiple games over the years for this very reason.

I completely disagree unless you are playing a "ranked" game mode. i think the bottom 15% of players should be separated and thats it. The reason is you will never ever feel progression. Everyone is too sensitive now days. I remember when i first started playing COD (MW) i would be on the bottom of the leaderboard every game. But as i kept playing and getting better it slowly got to the point of me being at the top of every leaderboard. SBMM removes that and makes it stale. Plus SBMM can easily be abused with smurfing. back when i got good at cod if i wanted more of a challenge i would simply play CDL

this happened with COD and the good players were complaining they were facing other good players. you literally cant win.

That could work in some cases but there should also be an option to play in SBMM lobbies and randomly selected lobbies

Yeah that's Team Fortress 2

@@miweum Oh, of course it already exists lmao. Nothing i think if is original anymore I guess.

@@CiDK Actually in TF2 nobody really use this and people have forgotten about its existence :D So I think it would be still original to do this and also if the reward system was made it would be the best. In TF2 there is not even a reward system to fucking "competetive match", like cmon Valve.

@@CiDK If you thought about it as a functioning system it's not tf2

tf2 has this but there's no incentive to use it and the tools aren't the best. I can't remember who, but someone made a really good vid about how they could improve the coach mode.

sadly quake champions as far as i am aware is the biggest victim, a game thats endlesly fun to play even when you are getting murder-fucked, and to be honest, if shit ins't hard you are playing the game wrong, for me what kills QC dead on track is high ping matches, and with a player base so small a low ping lobby is almost impossible.

@@toninhosoldierhelmet4033 Yeah Iunno, Quake Champions had a really rocky start. I do generally really enjoy Quake but never gave Champions a chance. TF2 goes way beyond just being a good game which appeals to my tastes. You get a real sense of community on fun servers similar to MMOs, it is incredibly mod friendly so you can get creative if you want to as well as try tons of community mods, and it has awesome characters, character interactions and generally quirky humor like goofy weapons and cartoony ragdoll shenanigans. I enjoy playing TF2 competitively from time to time, but the real reason I stick to the game and come back to it is because it makes me laugh. I genuinely feel better after having played it and that's one of the best things a video game can provide me. Many of my favorite games I played for similar reasons. Like GTA IV for all the unscripted and hilarious situations you run into by exploring the city Not saying every game needs this, and games can be fun and hilarious with buddies even if the game itself is kinda dry. But either way this is something that Quake lacks, which TF2 has, and is definitely a reason why I play TF2 so much more than Quake Live

@@Thornskade damn how did i forget that? QC had one of the worst early years, the game was unoptimized to the sin, about TF2 i have played for about some 700 hours and can confirm that at times the game is endlesly hilarious, but for me in most recent years, well idk, either a pub match goes wrong thanks to bots, people genuinily doing nothing creative to the point it feels like a bot match, or a match full of sweaty vet snipers, the enjoyment became inconsistent, it seens that all of the weapon nerfs that came around 2012 made the game worse even if more balanced, sure pyro with that fire axe as broken af but there were much more room for dumb crap to happen.

another way to deal with this is to balance it so that even in the case where you suck at the game and all of your opponents are great at the game, it's still possible to make some kind of progress or do some meaningful action nintendo games usually pull this off pretty well, though leaning heavily on luck for a multiplayer shooter is why everyone hates random crits in tf2, so maybe it would need a different strategy

@@shards1627 to be fair for me the biggest selling point of quake multiplayer, is the reward is just you getting better at the game, no ranks, no rewards none this crap, the grind is up to you not up to the game, and this is how you make grind enjoyable, i am not a good quake player, but least in QC i am decently competent simply because the game is just fun to play.

I think that in planetside, the best way for new players to get into it is to forget about kills. As a noob you're not going to get them unless your opponents make a bone headed move. There's a lot you can do to contribute to the battle without having a positive K/D and that is a pretty good way of keeping the new players in.

@@E1nsty yeah engineer and medic are best for noob players. We can't all jump in and be Sephuku or Vert or even visgodo.

The first few hours of Planetside 2 for me had me getting stomped by absolutely everyone. Only after I checked out youtube videos on how the guns work and how you should train yourself to shoot in the game that I learned how to actually start playing for real and I've been having such a blast with it ever since.

When i first got in i played Light assault with icarus jets. I think I had it pretty easy because i was always on the roof shooting down below. I stopped playing heavy a long time ago because every 1v1 I got into was always crouch spamming, chugging med kits or just beaming me in the head super fast. I suggest newbs play infiltrator. they can cloak, equip snipers and one shotters. Probably the most new player friendly class.

Yea the 1st "Quest" where thr tutor is basically in the story is freakin amazing

Warframe is also not good at teaching new stuff btw ;-;

That Level didnt just teach me the mechanics it let me get used to m+k Was the first Thing i played on PC

@@christophbeck1305 m ps k?

at the beginning its good but once you get further in it basically tells you nothing and it turns into a complex mess

lol yea that’s what I did with paladins.. 😬

That’s not really the games fault though, if a player can’t be bothered to play a few games against bots to learn the basics they probably were never gonna stick around very long.

aiming skill transfers throughout fps games, if you have good aim you’ll be fine until you make it to a point where abilities and game sense actually play a factor

if you cant play 3 bot games then you are not gonna play the game lol

true

Personally, I blame the rise and all-encompassing beast known as Skill-Based Match Making. Fuck SBMM

Idk, i have fun while playing and atleast for me (i mainly play csgo), you can muck around as much as you like. That being said im gn3 on aus servers so idk what its like on na or china, but most people is cs at my level dont really give a fuck and if they do you can just mute them xd

From an old school quake3 player who gave up pvp games for that reason , you are absolutly right.

This is Warzone 100% for me. Even Jackfrags has had trouble winning games as of late apparently! Honestly, it started going downhill the moment people found you could pull the parachute and cut it over and over again to shot people out of the air and gain way more distance.

Even in Tetris there existed some hardcore competitive players already...

Some of the best stuff is either already unlocked or unlocked early, but ok.

@@colbyboucher6391 Even knowing bunnyhopping exists, it took me people explicitly telling me slidehopping existed for me to start trying it, otherwise I was just doing what the game taught me, which was sprinting, wallrunning and sliding. There's just no reasonable expectations for a player to learn the advanced movement from the campaign.

You get started with the grapple and the best weapons of each class (car, r201, spitfire, kraber, eva etc.), and there is no bad titan except scorch. The only real issue is what you mentioned, the decaying playerbase

both tf2's getting mentioned

@@maxwellsterling How is he ever supposed to figure out the meta if he's getting stomped by day 1 players?

Tarkov is even worse, that feeling when you finally manage to outplay someone but you just cant win bevause they are just too well equiped

Teenagers have flooded the gaming market and spend every waking second playing. Constantly stomped by them in Fortnite and COS.

COD

That's been a huge problem with Tarkov: if you weren't playing every day, you fell behind very quickly and it gets really hard to catch back up. But with the new flea market changes, you can't easily buy high tier armor and ammo right off the bat when you hit level 15, so it extends that early wipe feel. I've been taking breaks every now and then and whenever I hop back on, I never feel like I'm falling behind. I still consistently run into people running low-mid tier gear and gun fights are no longer won by how much money you put into your laser beam, juggernaut kit, but by actual skill and who can get that 1 good face shot.

@@kakokapolei123 adult with a life here, tarkov this wipe has been completely changed for the better. Mainly the economy changes & how it changes what you run into on other players during raids. TBH this wipe is the best wipe for new-comers I have ever seen in the last 5 wipes I have been playing for.

its kinda the vibe of the game & I am so glad I clawed my way though the hell that is learning how to just survive raids & only take the fights you need to. I was a massive rat for quite a long while lmao

The thing with Tarkov is twofold. One is an open ended gameplay loop, where you can play as you wish within the context of the game mechanics. It's also a looter in a way, which is the primary fuel to keep coming back. There's also the amazing clips of people playing and you feel motivated to reach that. On the other hand the game has no refund policy, so if you don't like it after an hour? Well, gg, cause there's no refunds. This causes pressure to keep playing and try to get some return on your money or quit and take the loss. To the content of the devs.

Exactly. Everything else is pretty much predatory grinding and pay to progress/win. It’s garbage.

true, recently i back to try Valorant with my friend, and often i said "what happen ? explain to me", so many changes in just a few months unlike CSGO, but the problem with CS related to this topic is the smurf, well... like other game smurf playee actually just gonna make the game more confusing and making people doubting their own ability

For most games that have complexity, it's actually not a bad thing to limit the options that new players have just to not overwhelm the player with too much options too soon. By limiting the player to few options, it also teaches the player the main playstyles, before the game opens up to more advanced, situational playstyles. That said, it would be good if the progression mechanic would unlock the whole game after a couple hundred hours of playing. It's not fun to have to grind for tens of thousand of hours just to get a complete tool set that the pro players have.

@@yvrelna It’s a terrible thing. Only toxic players like you would say that. People should be able to learn stuff on their own without a ton of hand-holding. This builds reasoning ability, which the majority of people lack. Heck, they are so dumb that they’ll buy lootboxes and other P2W microtransactions… which only encourages game companies to implement more of them. The only thing progression systems do is rig games so that the newer/average players who don’t spend a ton of money or an eternity grinding have a harder time winning and are forced to spend more and play more.

@@RandomFandomOfficial You need to think of it from a game designer's perspective. Would you want a new player to go play the game as it was intended, or would you rather them be in the equipment screen for hours trying to research and compare every possible equipment combinations before they even start their first round of game? That question might seems dumb, but there are many players that, when given too much options, would actually do exactly that. When they are in the equipment screen, mulling over their choices, they are not playing the game and more importantly they are not having fun, which is crucial to get people hooked in that very important first few hours of the game where the game had a chance to make a first impression. Heck in some games, people would spend hours on the character design screen nitpicking over what hairstyles and color, or what race or how large their nose are, when these don't even affect gameplay in any way. Of course a progression system can be build for evil, but when it's done well, it is a tool for game designers to smooth out the new player experience over a complicated game system. It's a way for game designers to not-so-subtly hint to new players, that they shouldn't worry about all the complicated options the game have to offer for now and to just have fun first. For this to work, you do need the stock equipments to be a good and viable all-rounder for the major classes of playstyles, they need to be viable even to the highest level of play, and not just a noob-weapon that you'd discard as soon as you get better ones. And so people don't get frustrated, the drop rate of unlockables need to happen quickly enough as you start getting experiences with a particular playstyle and want to explore more specialized playstyles, but not too quickly that players don't even have enough time to experiment with what they already have. It's a very fine balancing act that game designers have to tackle. Unlockables should generally not be straight upgrades, but rather specialized sidegrades, which rewards certain playstyle at the expense of deviating from that particular playstyle. This means that the stock equipments will remain viable for that playstyle, since even players that do like that playstyle might not want to deal with the negatives of the more specialized equipments. New players are not going to play to the meta anyway; by definition, they are not experienced enough at the game to understand the subtleties of the game to properly play the meta, they have not built the skills to execute the specialized playstyle. At the beginning, there are many things that new players have to learn about how the game works, these are much more important than playing to a particular playstyle, so the game pointing you to the good all-rounders makes it much harder for new players to fall into a pitfall by screwing themselves into a very specialized pick that have serious drawbacks that they might never realize, because they had never experimented with the other options. > People should be able to learn stuff on their own without a ton of hand-holding I don't know why you called me toxic, when you're proposing that games should just be brutal to their players and not help new players learn at all. That's usually the kind of game with the most toxic fanbase. "Noob should just learn it the hard way like all the veterans did", that's textbook definition of toxic attitude.

Its wierd a really new expirience but I played around 172 hours of the game watched A LOT of videos on how to play the game and from what I can see im not really that bad.

Ohhh the learning curve in Siege... it almost never stops. I have played like 50 hrs or something and was quite proficient in the "Beginers league" or how it's called but never having played shooters before I was so fucking lost. Its has to do with expectations I think: I played as much as I would play other games at all am level 50 and in other games that's like mid rank or so but in Siege you're an absolute beginner especially because you get to play some maps only after in ranked and that's a level 50. I think Siege is only enjoyable if you have a friend on the same level (which I have) to play with you and have some fun while doing that.

Yeah, I noticed the same in a lot of games. I used to be a lot better in League of Legends and World of Tanks, but I wasn't even trying that hard back then. Not only did these games change a lot, but the average player also got a lot better. There are fewer players that make really dumb mistakes. In World of Tanks, the meta of how the maps are played totally changed, and almost no one goes to certain positions anymore, it's really weird. In League of Legends, the average performance of basic things like buying the right items and getting enough last hits on the minions for gold has really gone up as well. I never played siege much, I only played a bit in the beginning with my friends, because I always felt it had too many gimmicks. I really like CS:GO because it is a really simple game that has no gimmicks, just a few basic grenades and simple maps. Siege is a really complicated game, so people can't only beat you with shooter skills, but by knowing the maps and all the gimmicks. It really sucks when you just spawn in and get killed by a defender from one of the windows. And the gimmicks have only become worse in this game with all the new operators. Don't get me wrong, I like complicated games like League of Legends or Age of Empires 2 or World of Tanks, too, but I don't think it's the right aproach for a first person shooter, at least not for me.

Fresh Siege player here. After playing for a week, I can say that the game is really enjoyable, but really hard. Most of the time I get killed by some guy shooting through a tiny slit behind several doorways and I have no idea how they know which window I will break through so they can camp there, even when there's no camera nearby. And that's just newcomer mode, I don't know what to expect in the other modes. I'm slowly learning the layout of the maps and operator abilities, hopefully I won't give up because the game is fun so far.

@@deliriousjason8133 I played a bit of siege and I can tell that drones are really important (unless they updated the game or something). Hope that helps :)

That's exactly what I was thinking. I remember playing the Halo 3 campaign nonstop and when I finally got xbox live, I was able to quickly move up of the matchmaking until I was matched with players of similar skill.

Miss when games did this

back in the day cs bot was terrifying precise and hard as fuck to play alone against, i remember getting owned by those expert bots.

Ikr, something about his videos make it really enjoyable to watch

@@certified9104 he's going to become a successful UKpostsr for sure!

I guess doing something as a hobby means you'd probably be way more passionate about it than doing it as a job.

Most players play games more than game devs

SBMM is current widely accepted solution, but can fall short for new players with no SBMM data. To accurately build a skill profile, you'll need quite a few matches. You then have to take matchmaking into consideration. The software has to build matches from people currently searching for a game. The amount of new people diminishes massively for well established games meaning SBMM becomes almost irrelevant. You can only create games from the pools available. You'll either have to increase search times for low skill and high skill players or come up with an algorithm that does it's best to make it as fair as possible, but in the end that'll still sometimes create "unfair" matches. The initial experience for new players is the most critical. You'll need to decide what's more important, fair matches? Quicker queue times? etc. Heck it even raises the question of - should the bias be to try and put you in games against people with slightly higher skill levels to push your skill? Or mix and match? For hardcore and casual gamers there doesn't seem to be a goldilocks system.

which is so easily routed by smurfing. SBMM hardly does anything because of this.

It feels like lots of "skill based" matchmaking is just horribly tuned. It wants you to have roughly 50% win rate, so a lot of the time it feels like you get 45% ez games, 45% impossible ones and 10% of fun ones and its just infuriating, especially in games like dota

matchmaking is a mistake and people forgot how good server browsers used to be until we lost it.

there could be a gamemode only accesible to the new player(lvl 10 or under or something like first 50 game) and to stop smurf you would lock them out of the gamemode if they do too well in a game.

Bots disappear after level 10. Now I get salty when I'm not MVP lol

@@poggamer69 they still fill lobbies with them. You can tell a bot is a bot because they have a generic face as a pfp which you can see regardless of platform. I'm level 100 and i still see them quite often

Well what are you playing rn?

@@boid9761 other games with no try hard sweaty gamers.

fortnite is just so trash in this basis i can write an entire essay on it, i played fortnite in the earlier chapters was kinda good cuz no one was building 10 build a second, now it's hard to get kills on real ppl, as i get matched with ppl who literally have no life and play 10hrs a day... only thing keeping fortnite alive right now is it's competitive situation, but game will die in an year, and nothing can be done about it....

i moved from Fortnite to CSGO like a year ago. Even if the community is more toxic in CS GO, the players still go for fun. Not "I WANT TO WINNNNN". They only want to have fun. I find myself raging wayy less than i did iin fortnite.

@@that_kaii yeah also CSGO players help the new players with the basic to help them.

Hardly the first popular mp game, there were plenty of games that were large enough for the day before 1.3 gained traction and the IP sale.

Its not even close lol. Quake is a good contender for the first widespread mp game. It predates even half life which is where all source titles derive from.

@@MsDestroyer900 if we're talking boomer shooters then shouldn't DOOM precede Quake? Colleges had to ban DOOM from their computers because so many were playing its multiplayer, according to Masters of Doom.

@@mandeadd if we're talking about that might as well include the Paleolithic age. Where cavemen played the most popular shooter at the time, dodge rock. It was so wildly popular in fact it was banned in most tribes for being "too violent".

The thing he is talking about what I hate the most. I love games that are NOT noob friendly just like CS:GO, VALORANT ETC.

Its not.

@@Chris-xl6pd so basically give up trying to do something you enjoy because you’ll never be good enough? Well I guess I solved our problem folks. If you’re not good at video games then just fucking quit losers

tutorial: W A S D, click online game: Flying Soldiers and Demos

that's why you go to 2 Fort or Hightower, those matches last so long you can play around with every class and learn how to play each

Nah, tf2 players can sink like 5000 hours in the game and still suck ass. I pubstomp regularly with less than 2000 hours. Tf2 is basically the exception to the rule.

Their secret weapon is random crits

you're making it sound like TF2's tutorial is laid-back and cool it's the exact opposite

I don’t blame you, I’d say siege has the highest skill floor of any modern fps, and it gets higher every year. I only have about 1.2k hours since I started in y3s2, and I’d genuinely say you need at least 500 hours of experience to completely understand the game. This means knowing every map; almost every callout; every operator’s gadget, weapons, secondary gadget, armor/movement speed; different angles you need to watch out for and hold; common gadget placement; droning; common site holds; and the list goes on. The game however is becoming more accommodating to newer players with UI changes and more information given when droning and killing people, along with the z ping system that was added a couple years ago.

Also when you didn't log in for a long time. The game would match you to a bot for a couple of time then bam! You're getting wrecked again

Little did you know, games already account for that. Except instead of bots they used worse players. matchmaking often isn't made to be fair, it's instead optimized to keep people from abandoning the game.

@@vladimirsergienko4589 Which recently just makes me want to abandon competitive games. I get a good match and the game decides I must be good. I get put in a lobby of sweats. I lose constantly, and if I ever start to improve I'm more inclined to believe the matchmaking threw me a bone than I actually got better.

5 matches is already enough for me to rage and destroy something.. lessen it to around 3 and maybe it’ll work

if only it wasn't so obvious when you get literal bots on your team. Feels bad when the game "decides" you are going to lose

Not If change the meta every so often

Chivalry got this

I think that is a good solution. Players can be ranked like in chess or tennis, and can play only on servers of their level.

Smurfs would get in and crush everyone then

some game has it, but i know a bunch of guys like me who has multiple account at that low level server just so that we can crush them for fun occasionally.

@@luisaazul Like Siege.

Funny enough, my sister showed me a game called Super Auto Pets, the matchmaking in there is so bad that I thought it was buggy. Honestly, an elo system would save that game

SBMM makes every match a struggle. You can't casually play because your fighting people at your skill level. And then there are the cases like in apex where it just puts you against top percentile players despite being nowhere near their skill.

SBMM prevents learning. When fighting worse opponents, you learn what habits are bad and you get better by becoming more conscientious of your habits. When you fight better opponents, you learn how people better than you play, and you can then adapt that to your game play. Fighting people of the same skill is basically just slamming your head into the wall. You are given nothing to learn, so you just further ingrain your current habits which probably aren't ideal.

What happens when you don't play the game for a long time, but are ranked a lot higher in elo. The moment you come back and try to play it you fight against Player that are ten times as strong as you are --> you loose a lot of games. --> you don't play the game anymore

​@@ProfTuNichts Many ELO-like rating systems like Glicko and Glicko-2 takes into account the recency of other matches into account. If you've not played a rated match recently, you're still going to be matched with players at your last known skill level, but the rating system will take into account the rating's "reliability" and increase its volatility so any wins or loses will move your rating points much greater than when you have lots of recent matches. This means that whether your skill level degrades or improves during a period of inactivity, you'll quickly be placed into the correct skill bracket again just after a few matches. For example, if you win or lose a match when you've been playing for a while you may win or lose 8 rating points; but if you take a break from playing and then you start playing again, a single win or lose might move you 100 points or so.

Reminds me of how CS:GO's Danger Zone limits you to one map option which cycles every few minutes, but to be fair there's only like three maps for that gamemode and each round is long so it makes sense to do that. There's also Overwatch which pretty much removes the ability to pick your map but who cares about that

@@ultr4nima thats completely different though, since the maps don't change. In Due Process each week you get a completely new set of maps that no one has seen before. This means old players can't use map knowledge to bully new players.

@@Bruno-cb5gk Wait wait wait, new maps altogether?? Weekly?? They must either have the most efficient level designers or they're somehow generated

"Im gonna play what keeps me happy and hooked" You should!

Just make the bots OP as fuck Problem solved😎

The problem is that most casuals don't have this mindset

but the sooner or later gets longer and longer, and each second it grows, the more player will stop to never play again.

@@rarbin ah yes the filth casuals who dont have the WILL POWER of a hardcore gamer to masochistic lose for 7 or more months to have a chance to a fair play. yeah it is the "casual" fault right.

@@TheZenytram Hey calm down there, we talk about video games here: nothing personal. I just said that mindset is a important thing while playing shooter. I did not point fingers or anything. And there is a difference if a pro gamer start a gamer vs a normal dude play occasionally. But if that normal dude has a positive mindset and has fun losing.

The player base is so small that they cannot match new players with other new players. Giving both experienced and new players a bad experience.

sadly this is the way it will always be for those niche genres

I 1000% believe this. So many games have casual multiplayer modes that allow casual players to introduce their friends to the basics of a game. There's ARAMs in League, Commander in Magic the Gathering, Siege in For Honor, 4-player+items in Smash, etc. I think this is why traditi9nal fighting games have such a problem with getting new players. The serious 1v1 gameplay keeps casual players from checking them out. I even wanna say the same about Starcraft 2.

I have like 200 hours on csgo and I still play mostly on casual

This reminded me of my greatest bot idea of all time: train a League of Legends bot to be a peak (and by that I mean completely middle-of-the-road) Iron player. Then see how many iron bots it would take to kill one challenger bot and so on

bots

Bottom fragger doesnt mean bad btw

​@@_Rockok yea, top-fragger often blame bottom-fragger for losing but sometimes it is their own score which is worse when compared to enemies' top-fragger. If a bottom-fragger manage a same score as enemies' bottom-fragger then that is a good play.

@@sety5591 if bottom fragger is shit, which is usually the case in low ranks, but most of the time in highers ranks people have the same kills, in pro play you sometimes see high difference in kills but thats because of the roles each individual player plays

​@@_Rockok oh, pro-teams. But manually pick teammates in MatchMaking will break the algorithm; if you pick all-Pros mates then you will reach Global Elite in just few days and then nothing else to do.

@@sety5591 ??? I'm not even just talking about global, I'm talking about like above mg2 that you start to see that top and bottom start to get the same amount of kills

It can also make them feel sick of these challenges and give up (I used to grind Fortnite a lot and thankfully stopped at some point)

@@poggamer69 that is also true. But that's the challenging part of grinding and having fun new ways to keep players engaged

this creates a smurfing problem like in siege

@@succmeister7808 Exactly. the new player playlist in siege is harder than just jumping into casual, so most new players don't touch it or leave.

So..... Skill based matchmaking

It's true because it's written in bold letters

exactly, this is the option.