Have we been doing Solar wrong all along?
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День томуHave we been doing Solar wrong all along? Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code UNDECIDED for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/undecided You're probably used to solar installations that look like this - solar panels facing up towards the sky, which makes sense. You want a wider area to catch more of that sweet solar energy, right? However, bifacial vertical solar panels have started to gain traction recently. Their more flexible-footprint has innovators in Canada, Norway and elsewhere testing them in all kinds of weird scenarios. People who are using these panels are reporting something odd - higher energy yield than expected. The extra yield stumped engineers, but a recent Dutch study may shed some light on the source of this extra energy. Have we been doing solar panels wrong this whole time, or is it all just a miscalculation? And how could this tech impact our lives?
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@UndecidedMF 2 місяці тому
Would you want to set up vertical solar panels where you live? Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code UNDECIDED for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/undecided If you liked this, check out How We Solved The Home Wind Turbine Problem ukposts.info/have/v-deo/i4F8fICkbqyVlXk.html
@AtomicOverdrive 2 місяці тому
I have been watching a number of videos about people sailing on catamarans and most of them use bi-facial cells on the back of their boats since so much of the sunlight can reflect off the ocean water.
@ab_ab_c 2 місяці тому
So the lesson learned is install movable bi-facial solar panels that are automatically optimized for maximum energy output (i.e. before they become too hot, change their tilt & direction sufficiently to compensate for the anticipated undesirable thermal gain. When they cool down, optimize their tilt & direction again for maximum energy generation).
@jonevansauthor 2 місяці тому
Yes. A relative is furious about solar farms going in the fields within thirty miles of where she lives. She was fine with the massive coal fired smoke stacks which could be seen from far further away as her county is entirely flat aside from one city on a hill (Lincolnshire). Drives me batty. She's got solar on each of the three houses she's built but it's not ok to have it in a field for twenty years. I tried to explain why it's important but she doesn't get it. All she really cares about as a NIMBY is that she can see something that's not pretty. I despair.
@fionafiona1146 2 місяці тому
I'd say Leipzig with a long "e" sound and closer to "b" rather than "p" it's more fricative than normal English pronunciation but close enough
@LithaMoonSong 2 місяці тому
Probably doesn't need snow scraped off them..
@antonio_fosnjar 2 місяці тому
One other huge benefit I see is for big farms, when it snowing you won't have to clear the snow and even dust would stick less on a vertical setup and you can much easier clear grass and can even technically farm it and sell it for livestock.
@Slumbert 2 місяці тому
Good point..... No snow lying on them might make them last longer?
@bullydungeon9631 2 місяці тому
That's my first thought, maintenance costs would drop a lot
@Slumbert 2 місяці тому
@@bullydungeon9631 could make a very slim roof, maybe with cleaning shower.
@Slumbert 2 місяці тому
Sheeps would keep the grass down.
@addamaniac 2 місяці тому
Ah, that's a great point! I had to clear snow off of my small array this winter which wouldn't have stuck if they were vertical
@scottkolaya2110 2 місяці тому
It's hard to believe that the TNO study didn't have regular horizontal panels right next to the vertical ones. That makes it super hard to get a apples to apples real world comparison. Knowing the huge variance in solar radiance by location, I'd have a hard time giving this study the credit it would otherwise deserve. Thanks for having all the references in the show notes. Individual panels vary more than the 2-3%, but the fact they even produce close to the horizontal is impressive. Edit: after researching, they don't produce close to horizontal, just 2-3% more than they thought vertical ones would, due to additional cooling from having them mounted that way.
@corkkyle 2 місяці тому
That is a very good point. We need a proper study.
@tristanridley1601 2 місяці тому
The point wasn't to compare them. The point was to solve the mystery of why they produced more than expected.
@thekaxmax 2 місяці тому
he covers that
@scottkolaya2110 2 місяці тому
@@tristanridley1601 Right, but much harder to solve the mystery if you don't have a "control group"
@scottkolaya2110 2 місяці тому
Also Matt gets the meaning of the graph at 7:35 wrong. It's not showing anything "much cooler than their horizontal counterparts" It's just the difference between the modeled vertical vs the actual temperature. Here's the actual graph caption from the paper: "Daily profile of the module temperature: blue solid line shows observed temperatures, red dashed line presents modelled ones, and green dotted line displays ambient temperatures." Not vertical vs horizontal.
@douglasyoung927 2 місяці тому
I love the idea of vertical bifacial solar as fences, railings, sound and privacy barriers, and shade structures. This has so much potential!
@MichalKaczorowski 2 місяці тому
Or sound barriers on highways.
@Distress. 2 місяці тому
@@MichalKaczorowski problem i have with sound barriers is it can't be anyway as good as a textured concrete wall.
@naekosl3059 2 місяці тому
Only works in places that don't have protest marches, activists, and vandals that are willing to commute to find something valuable to ruin for fun.
@alanhat5252 2 місяці тому
@@naekosl3059don't just blindly repeat propaganda, think first!
@naekosl3059 2 місяці тому
@@alanhat5252 I envy you can live in an innocent area that allows you to sincerely believe that. You live in the old America I miss. In my area, after the 2020 protests, vandalism is part of the way of life for a certain subculture in my area. As a result, No house in my neighborhood or any neighborhood around it dares display a USA flag because "certain people" will eventually see the USA flag and throw a rock. A few miles from me, there was a car dealership well-known for having a huge USA flag flying from their tall flagpole. The "patriotism is racism" problems back in the 2020 riots forced them to take down the flag because the cars in their lot would get damaged windows constantly. There are basically zero businesses that display a visible USA flag now in my city. Putting up expensive solar fences is just going to stimulate those people into vandalism
@superman0035 2 місяці тому
In college, we created a photovoltaic panel with water flowing behind it to cool the panel. It created hot water and an increase in the output of the panel. I’m not sure why this isn’t being used more now but it’s a similar concept. A cooler panel equals more electricity.
@oliverpolden 2 місяці тому
Yeah that is strange that isn’t being done more. It takes a lot of energy to heat water and if you get more energy by doing it, why wouldn’t you?
@rataxes346 2 місяці тому
Hybrid solar panels do exist, but they need some specific installation: a big water tank to store the hot water and water heaters. A lot of people don't want ton invest on thoose, that's probably why they are not that popular. I also eard they where not that good but don't know exactly why (efficiency? twice the problems on one device?) I'm part of an association renovating a house and we decided to put separated thermal and photovoltaic panels for maximum efficiency.
@KalleLast 2 місяці тому
more complex and more expensive leading to higher maintenance, install and purchase costs
@Scaliad 2 місяці тому
@oliverpolden Building a TV with a built-in VCR seemed like a good idea, too... But, added features are always added points of failure...
@oliverpolden 2 місяці тому
That’s true but it seems to be such a synergistic feature that the increased complexity would be worth it, in my opinion.
@marsovac 2 місяці тому
The reason why vertical panels are cool is not only the lower amount of heat they get but also the amount of convective cooling they get. Vertical panels facilitate the natural flow of heat upwards, while horizontal ones impede it. I.e. the amount of convection per surface area is higher on vertical panels, so they cool better.
@javaguru7141 2 місяці тому
Yeah, this seems like a much more obvious potential explanation.
@ClaytonMacleod 2 місяці тому
This is what I was thinking. I was also wondering whether or not it would be cost effective to add heatsjnks to the underside of panels in typical horizontal installations.
@michiganengineer8621 2 місяці тому
@@ClaytonMacleod There are some companies doing that. There are others that circulate a heat transfer fluid through the backside of the panels, then you can use that warmed water to pre-heat your DHW so your water heater doesn't need to work so hard.
@Will-xk4nm 2 місяці тому
The heat stack effect depends on the movement of air. This is an absurd explanation that completely fails and it turns out that you guys are not better informed than the actual engineers that design and study these panels, LOL.
@ClaytonMacleod 2 місяці тому
@@Will-xk4nm Warm air rises. It can’t not move. There’s a reason passively cooled electronic devices have their heatsink fins oriented vertically. If it didn’t matter they wouldn’t orient them that way. If the air didn’t move they wouldn’t be passively cooled in the first place. They’d need fans. But they don’t have fans. They don’t have fans because the convection from the air being warmed is sufficient to move enough air to cool them. I think every home audio amplifier I’ve ever had, save one, has been a fanless device with heatsinks that have vertically oriented fins. And the sole amp I had over the years which actually did have a fan in it still used vertically oriented fins and only turned the fan on when you were asking for enough power that you’d never hear it over the music you were playing anyway. That you think it is too simple of an explanation doesn’t mean it is incorrect. It might be incorrect, or it might not be. FYI, it is possible to present conflicting information without being a jerk. If that’s your default mode, don’t even bother.
@ivankovac7844 2 місяці тому
This is a great example of accidental biomimicry. Some species of termites build flat east west facing mounds to prevent overheating and to capture the early and late sunshine for the thermoregulation of their mounds.
@jaerin1980 2 місяці тому
I'd be willing to bet if we make them smaller and put them on towers to allow them to flap around freely that we might even see better results. Have them all connect to the middle tower and run all the power down to a central bundle in the ground.
@LeviKerrison 2 місяці тому
Love both of these comments 🫡🙏🏼🙏🏼
@LeviKerrison 2 місяці тому
@@jaerin1980a flag set up gets the best of both worlds, better cooling, no static shadow like VBPV, no dust like horizontal PV and less chance of pest infestation eating or damaging wires. No dew from moisture either
@Ryan256 2 місяці тому
Biomimicry for the win!
@patrickday4206 2 місяці тому
Maybe we need leaf like panels that imitate trees
@Mark-hb5zf 2 місяці тому
Using vertical panels for a fence or wall (as shown in the video) is an intriguing concept. Especially out west where everyone's home is separated by barriers of some sort.
@qinarizonaful 2 місяці тому
One observation I have made is that installing solar panels on roofs over habited rooms made a huge difference in less heat pumped into the building and not only created electricity, but reduced room temps by 15 degrees! That means a HUGE savings in cooling that room! I live in a desert, sooo.. I am going to vertically mount some of my panels on south and west walls with stand off from the wall to allow convection to take away the heat and not transfer it into my walls... double improvement with reduced load on my cooling system AND cooler walls while I collect energy!!! 👍👍👍 Any cooling I don't have to do is a huge savings!! Yes, I'm kinda screwed in winter, cuz my walls won't get sun, but my cost is 8 months of cooling, not 4 months of heating. Now to gather data before the install!
@vovalos Місяць тому
Tried just painting your roof white....
@jeric_synergy8581 15 днів тому
Seems obvious: any hot, sunny, and wealthy climate should be doing this. I'm looking at you, Arizona.
@jeric_synergy8581 15 днів тому
@@vovalos , doesn't get you any electricity.
@michaelbranan1268 2 місяці тому
My dad worked installing chain-link fences. I grew up going to work with him and he showed me that when you leave the 6 foot 30 pound iron digger bar lying on the ground in the sun , when you go to pick it up you can’t touch it it’s too hot however if you leave it leaning against something or stabbed into the ground at a 90° angle it’s fine it’s just warm. I never really thought about this phenomenon till now perhaps the surface is getting the same amount of light but less heat when it’s vertical.idk
@darrell857 2 місяці тому
It isn't the same amount of light/heat, the maximum is when the angle is near 90* and it goes to 0 when you reach 180/0*. The panels in the video don't get the same amount of light during all times of the day as a tilted panel, they get less at all times of the day, but they make up for it to get a small 2.5% benefit.
@marvinhaagsma9177 2 місяці тому
In Alberta you can’t pick it up because it is frozen to the ground.
@nunya___ 2 місяці тому
Think of it like this, if you lift a cook pot lid straight up vs lifting and tilting. The tilted lid lets the condensation run off quickly. It's the same with heat. Heat wants to rise so creates faster air flow up the side of a more vertical surface so better cooling. Also roofs are (sometimes by 50F) hotter than ground level air temps but roofs often get best access to direct sun. Lots of factors.
@RonJohn63 2 місяці тому
Now imagine that 6 foot long bar being an automobile hood that's painted dark brown. In August, in the South. I couldn't get my hand closer than 6 inches from my grandmother's car, but could hold my hand against my grandfather's white car for about 30 seconds.
@jakethorburn3407 26 днів тому
Same as grass, grows better onder a tree in dapled shade, too much sun and photosynthesis is reduced.
@louislesch3878 2 місяці тому
You didn’t even mention the reduction in hail damage, bird droppings, dust, snow. Also this seems like a great place for tiny prism glass. I don’t know what it’s called exactly.
@dylconnaway9976 2 місяці тому
At least in the case of utility solar, O&M teams will tilt the panels as vertical as possible to avoid hail damage currently and to rinse the panels during rain.
@TheBayru 2 місяці тому
I think you mean fresnel lenses?
@HarrisonCountyStudio 2 місяці тому
3:25 42*
@MrTeq333 2 місяці тому
You get way less bird droppings, dust, snow, hail damage, true, but higher risk of damage / dirt when mowing lawn, doing gardening, etc. I have vertical solar array on the house facade and I had to replace one panel because it got hit by a stone shot from the lawnmower. From then I only use trimmer. But I still not regret it, ones needs to be more careful as the panels are closer to human activity.
@Dan-xo9ly 2 місяці тому
Hail doesn't just drop straight down. Often siding is destroyed during hailstorms.
@Gerclun 2 місяці тому
That's very interesting, we are studying to install solar panels in our winery vineyard in Catalonia, and maybe this vertical design could be a great solution. It allows us to work easily through the rows of vines, and also if they are installed properly and we adapt the orientation of the panels to project its shadow to the vines, it could give more fresh temperatures allowing the plants to rest during the hours of major sunlight incidence and help to decrease the temperature of the plants during summer hot months. Thx for the useful information Matt.
@steve6375 2 місяці тому
and spread white chippings on the ground for reflection too?
@michaelseah9617 2 місяці тому
I live in Vietnam, we have lots of sunlight and horizontal solar panels installation. It's a second roof that takes a few degrees off the roof. We don't clean the panels, Vietnam coastal wind & rainy season cleans them. The only concern is supports needs rust control.
@flymypg 2 місяці тому
This video neatly addresses a key dilemma: I have an asphalt shingle roof that has maybe another decade of life left to it, and I don't really want to put solar on it only to remove it when it comes time to replace the roof. I'm also replacing all my privacy fencing, and I realize I have two long runs that go almost perfectly north-south, making them ideal for rows of vertical solar panels. Meaning that even if I need to purchase several extra panels to meet my total energy needs, the savings on labor and fence materials should more than pay for it. Even better, this makes my solar installation a DIY process, as there will be no need for any roof-top work. On top of that, I expect to have less maintenance due to less deposition of our insidious San Diego dust that keeps blowing in. Win-win! Thanks!
@serversurfer6169 2 місяці тому
Yeah, using these to fence a yard is kinda brilliant. 👍
@YodaWhat 2 місяці тому
Yes, but BEWARE the lawn mower throwing debris at the panels. Typical power mowers can throw rocks at least 100 feet/30 meters, including upward trajectories (probably from richochets off the ground).@@serversurfer6169 @flymypg
@eyemastervideo 2 місяці тому
Flat panels on a roof will extend the life of the shingles as they protect the shingles. But in your case, you might want to check with an installer to get their opinion.
@Rainbow_Oracle 2 місяці тому
Not much of a dilemma I'd say. I dunno in your case, but at least in my area it's pretty normal for installers to offer free removals for your panels for whenever you need to change your roof. They only have to do it, roughly once every decade twice per house, so it's not a biggy for them to do that. And it gets rid of another silly petty excuse that people make for themselves to not go solar! Really taking panels off isn't that hard. Don't be lazy! The technical detail is mostly in just in drilling the holes, and making sure all the framing pieces line up and are screwed tight. Once the frame is on the panels just bolt onto it normally.
@pingupenguin2474 2 місяці тому
My panels were disconnected by a handy electrician ( a 2 min job) removed while new roof was put on, then reinstalled and reconnected ( it was just one cable for a lineup of 6 panels.)
@Andrew-jm4tp 2 місяці тому
I live in northern Montana and I put up vertical panels 2 years ago. They have been performing very well in the snow. They never collect snow and ice so I don't have to clean them.
@rp9674 2 місяці тому
Great upside
@prosamis 2 місяці тому
Engineer here (mechanical, focus on renewable energy) I really like how this configuration overlaps with demand because the biggest problem with solar energy will remain to be storage. Added efficiency helps, and this sure adds different opportunities in installment methods and plans, but I feel like the core issues are still unaddressed Vertically stacking them like a tower sounds like a nightmare to deal with when different levels of shading are taken into account which tends to have catastrophic effects on output, but the idea of having panels integrated in plots of land doing other things seems very effective. I see the potential here (despite shading issues)
@LostCanuck192 2 місяці тому
I can see it being better in northern areas like here in Canada. In the dead of winter, the suns angle is much, much lower than in the summer. Plus, the snow won't build up, and the snow reflects a lot of the sun. This is awesome
@user-bi7nq4nj7q 2 місяці тому
I discovered this years ago when I adjust my panels a set of my panels to a 72 degree orientation for more power over winter. When summer came along I got lazy and didnt readjust them to 32 degrees for summer with the rest of my sets. I found my voltages were producing SLIGHTLY less current, but voltages during peak heat was about 10V more. I was getting an extra 200W from that set as a result. I ended up leaving the panels where there were at. They got less dust collection and when snow hit I melted off much faster
@justingould2020 2 місяці тому
Maybe the ideal orientation overall is somewhere between the latitude angle and vertical orientation.
@jerells 2 місяці тому
I was wondering about this! It seems there should be an optimal angle, perhaps calculated as a function of the ambient temperature at any given moment along with the panel's internal temperature (but within the bounds of the adjustment mechanism).
@trollmcclure1884 2 місяці тому
@@jerells vertical convection obviously creates a chimney effect
@Technoanima 2 місяці тому
Interesting
@ThirtytwoJ 2 місяці тому
Wonder how much extra adding in earth batreries underneath would harvest on off hours. My other thought being its probably easier to dual use the land around panels this way, easier to put crops, plumbing, or landscaping around.
@SinisterSlay1 2 місяці тому
Real big win of this is snow immunity. Second big win is those of us scared of heights and can't get on our roofs will find these easy to clean as just fence panels.
@chazc7115 2 місяці тому
Uh. Not sure if this is going on roofs
@st-ex8506 2 місяці тому
@@chazc7115 On flat roofs they would. And the square mileage of large flat or nearly flat roofs (factories, warehouse, agricultural hangars, shopping malls, apartment buildings, many hotels, etc) is huge. In France, where I live, a statistic is made of it, it is called the "grands toits" (large roofs) area, and it stands at around 3000 km2. If all equipped with solar panels... which should be technically very easy, it would generate more electricity annually than the total French power consumption, would take zero land away from agricultural or other uses, and would have negligible esthetic or other negative impacts.
@tonydeveyra4611 2 місяці тому
@@st-ex8506 but why would you put this on your roof when you could put it anywhere else on your property where it would effectively double as a fence? Fencing is expensive, and a pain to install. if you get a fence and electricity generation out of the same object, big win.
@st-ex8506 2 місяці тому
@@tonydeveyra4611 Not everyone has a garden to be fenced. I do, and a 10 acre one at that, but it is delimited by hedges, not by fencing... not good for PV panels, but excellent for the biodiversity! I was talking of flat roofs of large buildings, not of those of family houses.
@SinisterSlay1 2 місяці тому
@@tonydeveyra4611 I didn't mean to imply they should go on roofs, more that you don't have to go on the roof because they can be a fence. But also, kids, kids break things. Someone will pass your fence and throw a rock at it.
@Bunstonious 2 місяці тому
I love the idea of adding solar to existing areas collaboratively, eg. the highway barriers (here in QLD Australia we have so much sun and so many stretches of highway).
@peterbilt2 2 місяці тому
Hmm.... great idea, but most QLD politicians are pushing to do away with renewables & re-embrace coal, gas & fossil fuels ????? & they say climate change is a myth...
@garrybrischke53 2 місяці тому
The " Graffiti artists " would have a great time I'm sure.
@aaronmohl2475 2 місяці тому
I've been off-grid solar at home for more than a decade in Canada. In winter when the suns angle is barely above the horizon the "optimal" panel tilt is already close to vertical. I've been running my panels vertical for the last few years while there is snow on the ground and see better output. I've been attributing these increased outputs to the combination of reflection off of the snow on the ground and the lack of accumulation of snow/frost on the face of the panels. With the ambient temp below freezing the cooling is probably having an effect as well. On a -30C sunny day the array exceeds it's rated output significantly.
@Pakkotehdataapska 2 місяці тому
In the paper "Thermal model in digital twin of vertical PV system helps to explain unexpected yield gains", it says "The adjusted value for Uc leads to a 2.5% higher annual energy yield and higher performance ratio, partially offsetting the energy loss due to the less than optimal configuration.". Not that the vertical angle is better than the optimal angle as the video kind of implies. The production of the optimal angle is far greater than the 2.5% gained from extra cooling. For agrivoltaics this is still kinda interesting and good information.
@MattieAMiller 2 місяці тому
I think the fact that vertical solar panel energy generation aligns more closely with energy demand is also a bit plus. Since it reduces the need for energy storage. The overall loss in efficiency may still be worth it if the cost of more panels is less than installing more energy storage.
@ayesaac 2 місяці тому
You can also just cool 'horizontal' panels. People have been reporting much higher output increases than 2.5% doing just that for a long time.
@cherubin7th 2 місяці тому
@@ayesaac And the cooling can be used for heating somewhere else where it could be useful.
@iantullie 2 місяці тому
Yes, this was my thought too - well expressed. The regular tilted panels can also have a benefit to livestock in agrivoltaics as it gives them places to shelter from the sun or rain/snow.
@bearlytamedmodels 2 місяці тому
@@cherubin7th I had a thought during that moment in the video, "what's engineering or physics problem is preventing harvesting that heat for useful energy?" Probably can't run a turbine off that (Maybe?) but perhaps offset heating costs with the proper set-up in a small home. If nothing else, harvesting it and moving it elsewhere would help with the hot-panels problem.
@OKOKOKOKOKOKOK-zn2fy 2 місяці тому
We did a nearly vertical PV install that had reflected light from a lake and a metal roof. In the Winter, we had three suns pumping sunlight onto the array. ( i.e. Direct sun, reflected sun from the roof, and reflected sun from the water. ) The yields on the array were the same in the Summer and the Winter.
@KalleLast 2 місяці тому
how long was the day during summer vs winter and what were the peak outputs of the panels?
@CoryBlaser_B95L 2 місяці тому
I live in an area with a LOT of hail. The first thing that pops into my mind is how much better vertical panels would survive a major hail storm.
@richardsandwell2285 2 місяці тому
I have just taken my average small semi-detached house with limited land OFF-GRID, it has been hard work and in mid winter I have to be frugal. But two things nobody seems to think of is Cleaning/Maintenance and Snow coverings. One thing I will be fitting to make winter easier is vertical panels on my walls, some are of the type that have better low light performance. My advice to people is you really need panels on all elevations. One big problem I have is sunny winter mornings I have not currently got any panels that can harness this energy and what I find is in the winter frequently has the day progresses the moisture builds up in the atmosphere, clouds form in the winter sky by the time my other panels would normally be exposed. Yes fit South facing panels to start, but use West facing panels to catch the late evening summer sun so that you have plenty of power to run the washing machine when you get home from work. In the summer my North facing elevation is actually very well illuminated late evening, and I still do not have any panels to catch it. Multiple panels, multiple positions, multiple charge controllers, so that if one burns out you have plenty of built in redundancy in the system. Not yet got into wind, I expect to get a small useful amount on bad windy dark days, but not a lot from a small urban wind turbine, my other venture will be in Thermal electric to generate small power from my wood stove. A good idea is to think of your house has your own micro grid system, when sizing stuff, work out what loads would be useful and what amount of wind or solar could power those loads. Create multiple micro systems so if one goes down you always have back up. I actually have a rare old 12 volt only Petrol generator, so far this winter it has probably now consumed £20 worth of fuel, pitch that against the truly obscene standing charges, I used to pay for of £35 a month and its a no brainer.
@abel4776 2 місяці тому
Add a few more panels and a battery system.
@laus9953 2 місяці тому
local conditions permitting, one could also consider creating reflective surfaces which re-direct sunlight onto some of the solar panels earlier / later in the day. like one commenter earlier wrote - they get extra yield from reflections off a nearby lake as well as a shiny nearby roof. another (albeit small) power source for blackout preparation or off grid living, especially when resources from solar + wind may dwindle during prolonged bad weather conditions: exercise treadmills attached to generators (I've seen UKposts videos where people used old car alternators) heat generating appliances such as washing machines, power showers, kettles could be supplied with pre-heated water from stoves /fireplaces, which should reduce electric demand drastically if that were previously used to heat all the water.
@victorspresence1263 2 місяці тому
Ans; Active solar heating.... Yeah. You're welcome.
@B1gRedOutdoor 2 місяці тому
Just use separate controllers for different angles and take advantage of the sun for more hours in the day, with larger scale 3 or 4 controllers can work better than one big one that gets too hot, you have X storage at some point it fills the earlier and later in the day power is full the more you have at night
@davidsucks922 2 місяці тому
Imo the use of these for walls or fencing is the most exciting thing here... many buildings in cities have rooftop decks with no room for traditional solar panels. However, these can be incorporated as fencing for those decks, producing power in a non-invasive way. Also great for fencing in a yard as show in the video. The vertical orientation allows these to be placed where they otherwise couldn't be
@tilapiadave3234 2 місяці тому
LMAO ,, and at the VERY low output it will only take 400 years to replace the carbon used to make them :)
@enigmavariations3809 2 місяці тому
Also, insurance companies don't like roof mounted solar panels so they will not renew your insurance or find some excuse to cancel your insurance such as, "your back yard is too cluttered".
@tilapiadave3234 2 місяці тому
@@enigmavariations3809 The cost of mounting on your roof is TOO much , it makes no sense. Solar is cheap ONLY when done in large areas of open land ,,, NOT farming land.
@cyberwarlord7363 2 місяці тому
Non invasive would be great.
@bearcubdaycare 2 місяці тому
@@tilapiadave3234The video showed land between rows of vertical panels being harvested...why do you feel that this isn't this an option for many crops or livestock? The vertical orientation seems to substantially address the either-or land use issue.
@benjiro8793 2 місяці тому
Benefits: * Less issues with snow * Allows for ground reuse around the panels * May benefit crops that otherwise get heat soaks too much (great in countries like Spain where farmers place light tarps over entire fields, to reduce damage to plants from the too strong sunlight) * Longer lifespan?!! Anybody in IT or Engineering knows that more heat tend to degrade equipment faster. Reduce the heat not only increased voltage in panels but also may mean longer lifespan for each panel. * Saves space to put panels in spots you normally waste * Better for homes, as you may require a less big battery / you send less to the net, as demands vs energy production matches up more. A issue that we are seeing these days of people getting their solar panels cut off the net, by net providers as they are over producing during peak sun hours (and the net can not handle that influx). Note: Your also seeing more solar panels being placed north-east/north-west, as that is the new trend to double panels, partially south/south-west/south-east but also some for morning. In general, those panel give about 1/3 the energy of their south brother(spring/autumn) but that matches more household activity. Disadvantage: * More expensive as less mass production of dual facing panels. But frankly, those prices have dropped a lot already as dual facing panels are being pushed more, even for roof installations. Just like South vs North facing panels, the best is a combination of roof, vertical panels, in different directions, to create a more stable energy flow during peek moments, or increased production during dark moments.
@willythemailboy2 2 місяці тому
My biggest concern would be wind damage. Vertical panels would have a much larger effective sail area and take more strain at the same wind speed.
@zadovrus1624 2 місяці тому
Another disadvantage is taking out solar panels from service
@RowanHawkins 2 місяці тому
more heat doesn't affect computers as much as it used to. mainly because not as much moves and cpus have better thermal throttling than in generations past. companies like Google and ibm have done tent and trailer builds as tests and one tent test was stopped because the servers were sucking up debris.
@ccibinel 2 місяці тому
Can probably also be far lighter since they don't need to handle a hail strike.
@drdude720 2 місяці тому
In the residential application, I would assume the cost of the panels is offset by not needing a crew to get onto the roof
@fabianholm2011 2 місяці тому
Coming to the end of the video, we have the same problems in SA, cost/W of a bifacial PV MODULE is +/- 4 times the cost of a normal unit, with only an average reported 20% increase in yield, however mounted in a traditional way. Mounted vertically is then 22.5%? while being 4 times as expensive doesn't quite make super sense. We have done an experiment on a building, where we put bifacial panels on a horizontal lattice running up and through convection underground, pulls up cool air across them which worked well until the vacuum and modules were broken by a grass cutter hitting a stone hahaha, but worked great on keeping voltage high
@user-yv7kw1nr2q 2 місяці тому
Thank you Matt for providing a great explanation on pros and cons of the bifacial solar panels. We live off grid and always looking for ways to maximize our solar gain. I will be looking at your other videos - the home wind turbine problem looks interesting.
@thamiordragonheart8682 2 місяці тому
so, after some reading, I think these only generate more power than traditional PV installations once you get pretty far north, like the nordic countries, Canada, and Russia, because then the sun stays close to the horizon most of the time, and rises and sets much farther north. On the other hand, these are really good for reducing the need for grid storage (and gas peaker plants) because the double peak in the morning and evening is complementary with regular monofacial PV to flatten out the overall solar power generation curve. With how cheap solar is, that alone seems like a great reason to use vertical bifacial PV in more places, especially on houses and in residential areas where power usage at noon is very low anyway.
@aussie2uGA 2 місяці тому
If you live Florida, power demands are the highest around noon.
@squeaky_honda 2 місяці тому
You can actually simulate and replicate these findings easily! At globalsolaratlas open 3 tabs. One with south-facing 20 degrees panels, and two with East/West-facing vertical panels. Add-up the annual kWh and you'll see that it's producing more, especially in summer. Multiply one of the numbers by 0.9 (what their paper assumes) or 0.8 (what I have) for 90% bifaciality. I tried this with UK. The winter numbers are terrible, but the summer ones are even better than before.
@JoppeOSL 2 місяці тому
According to Over easy solar AS ( if I read their sales pitch correctly ) vertical panels only generates about 50% of a horizontal panel, but the 50% is more than previously expected. and those test are in Oslo (equivalent to the southern part of Alaska) it will probably get worse if you install in further south. The way I read the underlying papers it looks more like they expected a 70% loss compared to normally installed panels ando only got 50% loss. A huge boost from what was expected but still a 50% loss over all.
@squeaky_honda 2 місяці тому
@@JoppeOSL Actually it's 50%+50% gain, even before the cooling factor.
@RS-ls7mm 2 місяці тому
I have two sets of panels (for various reasons). One is optimized for summer and are pretty flat, the other is optimized for winter and are pretty vertical. Vertical panels in the summer here would be useless. The winter panels are almost useless because of the short days and cloud cover (even though its a desert). I still think solar is a novelty, too unreliable for an real application, it just knocks the electric bill down (on good months).
@Robert-ki9mb 2 місяці тому
Love your channel! As a sheep rancher I want to see more sheep grazing amongst these vertical solar farms, sheep are optional in converting weeds & grasses to protein and wool! Keep up the great work!
@st-ex8506 2 місяці тому
Your sheets would also have some shady places to rest on a hot sunny day...
@tonydeveyra4611 2 місяці тому
could probably do cattle, too. The issue with using cattle in traditionally angled PV installations, as I've heard from agrivoltaic expects, is that the cattle are just too tall to fit under the panels. Not an issue with vertically oriented panels, and there's a lot more cattle in the US than sheep--not that I don't like lamb, both are delicious!
@sagetmaster4 2 місяці тому
Shout out sheep milk
@tonydeveyra4611 2 місяці тому
@@sagetmaster4 running a dairy operation on some kind of agrivoltaic field would be...next level challenging. Solar grazing probably only works for meat animals.
@BrianJNoah 2 місяці тому
If you let your chickens follow up after your sheep, you'll get an increase in carbon absorption into the earth which gives a higher yield in your next crop of grasses.
@wrenchpony9735 2 місяці тому
Really like the use of them as fences and in fields. Cool use on a farm.
@thenorthernhandyman 2 місяці тому
I live close to the 67 parallel. I have quite some education in photovoltaic and renewable energy(but 10 years old and not maintained). I have been thinking about VPV-panels for my home for several reasons(mounted on the south wall of my house). 1. Less time covered by snow. 2. I dont need the most energy peak summer, I need it in february when the sun is low on the sky. 3. More protected from the elements. You just gave me more to think about and when I have the money I will invest in VPV-panels.
@buckbenelli8 2 місяці тому
I’ve contacted two contractors for a ground based array. They both were perplexed I didn’t want them on my roof. I’m glad I waited.
@malifestro3319 2 місяці тому
I'm also more interested in a ground array. I may eventually put them on my roof too, but if we have the space and it's just grass I don't see why we shouldn't use it first. Provided it's a good location etc
@corkkyle 2 місяці тому
I agree. I'd prefer a ground based array. Easy to clean Cheap to install. Snow doesn't stick when vertical. Go for it.
@tilapiadave3234 2 місяці тому
@@corkkyle he did NOT say vertical
@SolarTechFL 2 місяці тому
I prefer installing ground mounts
@onestoptechnologies7305 2 місяці тому
I am absolutely NOT putting them on my roof! EVERY hole (screw/wiring) will eventually leak! Ground-based is easier to maintain and adjust... plus better cooling!
@gladious7894 2 місяці тому
This sounds great for Canadian winters - no more snow removal.
@IsYitzach 2 місяці тому
Or Coloradoan winters
@jamesphillips2285 2 місяці тому
Eh I think snow would still pile up on the side facing the prevailing wind.
@tonym9771 2 місяці тому
But will they hold up against the wind?
@dickinaround87 2 місяці тому
A vertical hot plate will have a much higher heat transfer coefficient than a horizontal hot plate (will all other conditions equal). To drastically simplify the explanation of this, think about how the buoyant air will flow directly up against gravity, unobstructed in the vertical configuration and with a sharp 90 degree turn in the horizontal configuration. For more details, look up natural convection.
@jamieharland9080 2 місяці тому
My point is !! Any solar panel working to charge a phone or a battery is better than taking from the grid !! There are lots of people doing these videos, but when I come across your one, I always watch them as you’re very interesting very smart, very intelligent, not boring at all !! Cheers from Port Hedland Western Australia !! I am fully off grid !! 😎
@prjndigo 2 місяці тому
Just to point out... you can grow tomatoes in Florida under partial cover but not in full-day direct sunlight. There are lots of areas of the world where the efficiency of combustion based power generation actually drops off and many of the staple food crops need some protection from elements. So while I doubt the vertical panels would help tomatoes in Florida since they're reflecting and emitting the heat radially back to the ground.... they would be able to produce not only wind shadows but also reduce some evaporation, windscour and increase fertility drift collection. The main concern is simply ensuring they're made with material that can be cleaned by absolutely crop-safe chemistry.
@BunjiKugashira42 2 місяці тому
Would be great if water is enough to clean them. Then you can clean the panels and water the plants in one go.
@johnn3542 2 місяці тому
You entire comment sounds odd. Solar panels surfaces are plastic or glass. The material doesn't really dictate if you can clean them with just water. The stuff you are cleaning of matters, dust could be cleaned with a soft cloth, but if it's like tree sap you can't really just use water.
@hughritchie1844 2 місяці тому
Deionised water should clean most things off, what are you doing putting solar panels where trees would shade them.
@trollmcclure1884 2 місяці тому
some heat is removed by air convection upwards. IMO there's a lot of space for tuning. Like making them taller with a space for the air at the bottom. Using reflective paint on the ground...
@Patriarchtech 2 місяці тому
I live in Tokyo and have a small 1kw solar system on my balcony. The temperatures in Japanese summertime can reach 38c degrees in the shade. In the sun probably closer to 50c. I have 9 x 110w panels running in parallel which are Shingled all black modules which of course means they get scourging hot. If you then consider that panels generally are tested in a 25C environment to grade them, it quickly becomes a problem. A voltage drop of 0.08v each degree over 25 means a 2volt drop pr panel in my case in the summer(assuming that the panels are 50c. They are likely hotter I have not measured.) And I can tell you the performance suffers for it like 50% on the entire system almost, however as soon as there is a breeze performance goes up a lot.
@amzarnacht6710 2 місяці тому
PV designers should put a bit more effort into heat sinks or heat storage to pipe away all that nearly boiling water for alternative uses. Imagine if all of the units in your building had the same setup with the same heat gain but all piped to a hot water storage system that could then be used for laundry, showers, ect. Cools your panels and would be almost free.
@thevoiceharmonic 2 місяці тому
I suspect that the undersides of all panels needs to be black in hot climates to radiate heat from the panel. I suspect that is part of the reason for the increase in efficiency for the vertical panels.
@ariesleo7396 2 місяці тому
Add a small PC fan to the bottom of each of them
@gameratortylerstein5636 2 місяці тому
What if you pump cold well water up to your panels and potentially even use the heat for something else?
@vencdee 2 місяці тому
@@gameratortylerstein5636 It already exists as hybrid panels. The odd is that it's much more complicated solution and it's not suitable in areas with cold winters. You would need to use glycol instead water etc.
@savrip 2 місяці тому
Thanks for providing a thoughtful well researched video as always. I would love use these panels. I have just started the process of designing and building a barnodominum on my family's property where I grew up. These would be great for down the fenceline that would place them in an East/West orientation. My farm's land comprises rolling hills. As this technology develops I've always been excited to try to farm with livestock and perhaps provide a solar co-op for the local neighbors, with the county's cooperation. Thank you for an educational video to put into my arsenal of knowledge.
@WhatTrigger 2 місяці тому
Another bonus for these panels would be in areas that have common large hail storms. this would greatly decrease the impact angle. Downsides, not feasible for a typical residential home
@KalebPeters99 2 місяці тому
I reckon that miniature vertical setup could work in a residential setting though maybe?
@poneill65 2 місяці тому
So you get a few percent more energy from them,... 1) I would hope so, they have TWICE the collecting area 2) what is the additional cost of bifacial solar cells? 3) seeing as they cannot have a blocking mechanical back support, are they less durable, or more expensive to make? (I'd also expect that vertical mounts, only secured at bottom are a right nightmare in high hinds, requiring more substantial mounting hardware) Also, the fact that these researchers didn't even set up an actual bifacial array AND a "control" latitudinally oriented arrray is extremely suspect.
@wombatillo 2 місяці тому
There are already solar panel banks installed vertically in Finland. Some residential apartment buildings might have their entire south wall covered in solar panels. It doubles as a surface cover, produces electricity and there is no problems with bird poo, autumn leaves, winter snow, or dust and other dirt. Another huge benefit in Norway, Finland, Canada etc. is that the vertical solar panels actually produce some power in the winter. Because the sun is so low for the whole day in the deep winter normally tilted panels, which are usually always low and covered in snow, don't produce much power. It's also much cheaper and easier installing and maintainin panels on a wall rather than on a roof. (Roofs in these northern countries are often rather steep due to snow loads and high rain accumulation). Solar panels are dirt cheap. The installation, electronics and electrical components are much more expensive. It just makes sense adding 100% extra panels for a vertical installation just for the heck of it if you have the space.
@justinw1765 2 місяці тому
I wouldn't really say that Solar panels are "dirt cheap". Maybe for industry, government, etc but not for the average person. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your excellent post.
@forgetful3360 2 місяці тому
The great majority of Canadians live south of Berlin. Toronto is south of Avignon. Whitehorse in the Yukon Territory is up there with Helsinki. It's a small town.
@Pumbear 2 місяці тому
I could also imagine vertical panels create a channel for air to flow through and take away more heat. Would be nice to see an aerodynamic test of the different set-ups.
@Lordblow1 4 дні тому
Bi-facial solar panels aren't significantly more expensive at this time and can be deployed using standard east west configurations on rooftops. While returns do not increase as much as the verticals ones probably do, they do see a couple percent increase in monthly yield. In particular when in the shade during certain times of the day. (though it should be note that the 60% increase that is often touted by suppliers is a 60% increase only when they are in the shade and hardly producing anything. An 0.2 to 0.25% increase is what we usually observe when monitoring our customers. which is still a lot over the lifetime of a solar panel.)
@PaulAmlin 2 місяці тому
This is fascinating to me. I'm in Florida where you'd think everyone would have solar, but the insurance companies won't write homeowner policies if you have panels on your roof. We are currently building a home and now I'm wondering about the effectiveness of vertical panels in the back yard or as a fence line. Thanks for sharing this.
@aussie2uGA 2 місяці тому
FPL has really pushed back against solar, for decades now. Looks like they are letting the insurance companies take the brunt of the blame.
@SolarTechFL 2 місяці тому
Check another insurance provider
@Vaeldarg 2 місяці тому
There's still insurance companies in Florida?
@MichaelEricMenk 2 місяці тому
There is a company in Norway make PV balcony railing... Norway is further north, and energy prices and energy demand is higher in the winter. On the other hand, east west panels can benefit from the higher evening cost of electricity...
@PaulAmlin 2 місяці тому
LOL, not many! @@Vaeldarg
@t.d.5804 2 місяці тому
Got 9.8kW PV on the south facade, 90°, on the wall. Best thing ever. Much more in the winter, no snow and no unneeded peak in the summer compared to the roof PV. Living at 52°N.
@casemodder89 2 місяці тому
how much real life kw do you get out of your system in mid summer and mid winter ?
@t.d.5804 2 місяці тому
@@casemodder89 Its around that what PVGis says (tool to calculate PV with location and alignment). Theres nothing on cloudy days, but a bit of sun has double the yield of the same PV size on the E/W roof. Living at 52°N. 70° south would de ideal here for best year round PV.
@gypsygem9395 2 місяці тому
Came across your video in my feed, don't know how it got there but I'm so glad it did! Wow how exciting! I had been toying with the idea of a small ground based array in an area of my smallholding, however I was concerned about the loss of land use. This idea would be even more appropriate. I'll certainly keep an eye on developments! Thank you. I've always been interested in these kinds of innovations even before they became mainstream. I'll check out your other videos!
@garanceadrosehn9691 Місяць тому
My house has a flat roof, and I do need to go up on that roof on a regular basis. I'm also in northern NY state where we at least used to get a lot of snow in the winter. And once there is snow on the roof I'm not going to go up there. All of this means that I'm very reluctant to put horizontal panels up there. If they get covered with snow, there's no way I can go up there and clear off the snow. I knew very little about vertical panels. I knew they existed in some places, but never would have considered them for my house. But I could put a few vertical panels up on my flat roof and I think that'd work quite well. My biggest concern would be with how much wind they might be hit with. Very interesting.
@scottz45 2 місяці тому
My guess is temperature of the panel. Of course I had panels for years and know a cool sunny day produces more then a hot sunny day. This sounds great for crops and solar combo!
@kevinmontgomery1054 2 місяці тому
As you explained part of how BVPVs work is because light is reflected off snow/roof/next solar panel onto the a solar panel. This reminds me of a years-old ad about a guy who paired 2 single-sided solar panels into a horizontal V shape so reflected light would bounce between the faces of the 2 panels. Because each ray of light hit each panel multiple times more of it was converted into electricity instead of being lost as reflected light. He claimed this significantly improved the electricity generation. He racked multiple "V"s into a vertical column thus reducing both racking needs and required space. He researched the most efficient angle of the V and for a nominal fee would send you his findings. I can't remember his name. Please investigate if this is true and is anyone doing it.
@AlarKemmotar 2 місяці тому
I remember reading something about this years ago. Pretty sure it was the same thing you saw, because I remember that plans could be purchased. No idea if it would really work like he claimed, but I remember that my hunch at the time was that it would collect more energy per area of ground covered, but likely would collect less energy per panel.
@vincentkeith5259 2 місяці тому
Sounds like a good solution for snowy climates - you'll need to mount them high enough to be above average snowfall (or do a lot of snow blowing) but not having snow build up killing your power would be nice. I was trying to figure out a way to automate snow removal but this would have to be cheaper. Definitly adding this to my Tech Watch list. Hopefully we'll have some good solid data by the time I want to deploy (maybe 2 years?)
@user-zf3xi7jh9k 2 місяці тому
Matt, i think you missed 1 big disclaimer of this study. The Panels perform better than expected for their *orientation*. It is still better to mount the same Panels in an "optimal" Position for Max Overall Power. Still there are good reasons for mounting them vertcal.
@javaguru7141 2 місяці тому
Typical quality for this channel🙄
@Claritism 2 місяці тому
If that's true that is extremely important to mention.
@cherubin7th 2 місяці тому
@@javaguru7141 True
@hoveringgoat8061 2 місяці тому
@@Claritism i think its assumed that they are not more efficient overall. But its interesting theyre significantly more efficient than expected.
@BWolf00 2 місяці тому
I can only say how pleased I was to see a black engineer explaining things to a white blue collar...about time the diversity became a reality...the sad part was both were males.
@zodiacfml 2 місяці тому
4:05 good job. I know bifacial but they never mentioned this advantage until now. So you basically get good generation in the early morning and late afternoon but not noon. A side effect of this, due to less peak generation, you don't need to buy a powerful inverter just to capture a short peak of power generation around noon. Inverter cost is being left behind the rapid drop of solar panel prices. Additionally, in solar farms, you don't need a tracker that adds costs-we just need a large solar farm or solar pv company to confirm this. Sadly, for most residential installations, a vertical bifacial is not practical.
@LA6NPA 2 місяці тому
Yes, I would consider this! I live in Norway, so I guess Over Easy will be considered too, though not the flat roof thing, I don't have that. I live on sloped land, so this might be perfect for me, considering the amount of snow in the winter, the reflected light and that I don't have to remove snow from the panels is perfect. My roof's ridge is north/south, and I have mountains to the east. So many things making roof mounting moot. I was thinking vertical panels on the south wall, but there's just not enough space to make it viable, but maybe as an add on? A few hundred watts more?
@obidobi2 2 місяці тому
My guess was ambient light from the surrounding that would not hit a panel that is directly facing the sun. Like from snow or water masses around the vertical panels would get a lot of indirect light. Like vertical panels on a slope facing a lake would be optimal and free from snow during winters.
@MysteriousSoulreaper 2 місяці тому
Vertical Solar Thermal has been used for heating water for years now. So it's kind of weird it never took off more.
@Dana5775 2 місяці тому
Thermal solar has an objective to catch heat (infrared) which is the opposite point of this objective to catch high frequency photonic energy ( UV) while staying within a cool temperature so as not to lose efficiency in electricity. So vertical is not the best optimization for thermal according to this discovery.
@drillerdev4624 2 місяці тому
@@Dana5775 the real winner would be a combined system that cooled off the panels by transferring the heat to the water
@billberg1264 2 місяці тому
@@drillerdev4624 Many farmers would be irrigating their fields with some sort of sprinkler system. Building the sprinklers directly into the same structure as the solar panels would make a lot of sense.
@nunya___ 2 місяці тому
@@drillerdev4624 We use water and cooling towers in large buildings/etc because of energy savings but small buildings are not worth the initial expense and maintenance costs. A 50sq.ft solar panel would get hot enough to make steam, using hundreds of gallons of water +/- a week. Running a cooling tower is a nasty, biohazard requiring biocides, PH adjustments, so constant monitoring and mineral buildup (scale) and daily water dumps. A home hot water tank would be overwhelmed with this load.
@nicolasdujarrier 2 місяці тому
@@Dana5775 Alternatively, you can use panels from French company DualSun, and you get to both harvest thermal energy and improve photovoltaic efficiency by cooling the panels with the liquid that harvest the thermal energy to heat water.
@danoneill8751 2 місяці тому
One aspect only touched on here and not really fleshed out is the financial return for the more demand-correlated output of vertical farms. Power distribution pay (at least where we are) quite fluid rates that match their demands, its why the addition of batteries pay back far more than you'd think. While the total energy capture might be only 2.5% higher, the distribution better matching the higher rates you can get is actually a far bigger impact on ROI. We have done simulations based on data from the same study (those charts were horrifyingly familiar seen outside of a work context!) and almost 15% more money can be had, and that was presuming some very conservative price tracking. If you are considering a small-scale farm or even a domestic situation where you can sometimes get very variable reverse tariffs, you might see more like 30% gains by distributing double-skin panels vertically. One interesting side note though - if you do have the 20% higher up front costs (which almost all go into the structure by the way, not the panels which can be very similar from some suppliers), then you are still better off with putting that in storage, assuming the gains you want to make are from variable-tariff sale prices, and that's simply because the demand curve is not just at the beginning and end, its outside the beginning and end of the sunny times, and to get the supply to match that, well you need batteries - but if you have em, and have the wits to carefully control them, you can get a huge payback.
@fdorsey 2 місяці тому
We have a small farm in georgia, I like the thought of using panels as paddock fences or other internal fencing.
@fepeerreview3150 2 місяці тому
Cooler temperatures improve panel efficiency. I've heard about that before. I believe here in France there is a panel manufacturer that runs water piping on the back of the panel to transfer heat from the panel into the water, thus cooling the panel and warming the water. This warmed water then feeds into the hot water supply of the building, saving some energy on water heating.
@johnransom1146 2 місяці тому
If these double as a fence or noise barrier, they should be less costly with the stacked functions
@infinitebeing1119 2 місяці тому
If railways use this they don't even have to use fossil based electricity to run trains.
@benjiro8793 2 місяці тому
@@infinitebeing1119 I assume trains only run during sunshine days? And never during night, dark months? 😄
@drachefly 2 місяці тому
@@benjiro8793 Presumably they'd still be grid connected, but this would be a more direct way of getting the power, when available.
@davestorm6718 2 місяці тому
The vertical orientation helps regarding weather, too! No snow build up, for starters. Hail storms are another by minimizing surface area exposed to falling ice. No leaf build up and less dust build up. I can see some really good advantages here.
@titanlurch 2 місяці тому
you forgot to mention bird poo.
@QuesoCookies 2 місяці тому
One shortcoming is probably drag, though. Vertical panels would be a lot mor susceptible to wind damage than horizontal. You probably wouldn't want to install them in high places like the rooftops of towers.
@davestorm6718 2 місяці тому
@@QuesoCookies True. Though they wouldn't suffer from lift, however (say, from a microburst in tornadic areas - the stuff that pulls roofs off, but doesn't knock walls down).
@RonJohn63 2 місяці тому
@@QuesoCookies yeah... Oslo must not have blizzards. Or hurricanes.
@jeric_synergy8581 15 днів тому
I'm at 8:17 so I don't know if it's addressed, but: another benefit to this orientation is the land around the PV panels is MUCH more usable, for grazing or whatever.
@codebeat4192 2 місяці тому
I have mount my solar panels vertically and is working great. A real benefit is that dirt, tree leaves and snow cannot cover the panels. The first time I notice this was at the time I built a veranda outside and cutting many pieces of wood. The wood cutting dust was everywhere, on any horizontal surface, except on the panels.
@benplumlee751 2 місяці тому
I’m a truck driver in the USA and I’ve noted many large solar panel fields installed the past couple years. None look like they are assembled like this. All are laying at angle toward the sun. I guess the modern version has not made it here yet.
@cyumadbrosummit3534 2 місяці тому
After seeing this video I went out and separated two of my new BYD bifacials (the biggest panel they make) ran one vertically and one at 36 degrees south. Both were sent through a shunt and then the + and - where connected. When it got dark I went out and checked and the vertical panel produced almost half of what the panel set to my latitude did. My guess is this study was done so far north that the optimal orientation was closes to vertical with Norway being at the 66-69 degree latitude.
@mihaistroescu6563 2 місяці тому
I use a vertical panel with an ultraclear glass in front and a fan for 2 years. Temperature of the air is up to 60 C, normally 30-40 C. Like Trombe wall with a photovoltaic panel. In summer hot air can heat water, I shall test it next summer.
@jackcoats4146 Місяць тому
Just got our vertical bifacial panel array installed and commissioned to help power our house. Currently just an 8kW set of paneled. Not even a week of profile and our sky is pretty cloudy. Can't wait to get some time to get some information.
@ChitFromChinola 2 місяці тому
East-west vertical solved another problem for me on my farm - the vertical panels are not as ugly as conventional.
@gregvanpaassen 2 місяці тому
Should help moderate wind speed at ground level, and therefore increase crop yields and reduce water demand in most climates, too.
@B_Van_Glorious 2 місяці тому
You think like a raised 4 panel array is ugly but these lifeless straight line columns aren't? My understanding of beauty is in direct contrast to you it seems and I can obsess for unhealthily long chunks of time over flat straight and true, but, as they say, straight lines don't exist in nature and in buildings can easily lead to that sickly institutionalized feeling. I think vertical can have a place but I'm a HUUUGE fan of garden partitions and privacy screens and even with that, on their own, vertical panels look anemic and uglier than shit. I don't like panels on any roof that isn't south facing but thats cuz I think it's inefficient. Putting a post in the ground and panels 8ft above you isn't going to be cutting into most people's freedom of movement (assuming you have the space). Panels can even be arranged to look like flower petals opening up. Idk man, I'm really trying to understand here and I'm just coming up short Do you think giant windmills are ugly too? Because the majority of people think they look freaking awesome. If we were 18th century Dutch, would you have been against those windmills going up too? Progress is appealing, exciting. Conserving has a place, but if it's trying to conserve old customs that have no real reason to exist (like infant mutilation) beyond tradition, just accept that your ways are in the outs, in just the same way as your generation did to a number of your parents mores.
@ChitFromChinola 2 місяці тому
@@B_Van_Glorious Yup, I have pedestal ground mounts, too, on the farm site, and they look fine. Easier to maintain than roof mounts, too. But in the fields, these east-west bifacial verticals will look much better than a field full of south mounts. The fields full of south mounts on dirt where nothing grows cause shade, usually surrounded by a chain link fence - these arrays are a blight.on the countryside. Better than a coal plant, certainly, but I like the promise of this simple innovation for farm country.
@energyideas 2 місяці тому
Should swing in the force of wind reducing structure. Also don't have to be directly east/west facing. Use NREL SAM. agrisoltaics with two S's
@ChitFromChinola 2 місяці тому
@@energyideas That is too cryptic. What are you saying?
@XAirForce 2 місяці тому
4:33 The first thing I can think of is, maybe it has something to do with losing energy straight to ground when they’re that close to a surface. if you set a battery straight on the concrete, it can have electron flow through the casing to ground and discharge faster. You’re creating more potential by moving most of the panel away from earth ground. You could also gain performance by not having the panel heat up so much, and moving away from the ground would do that where they now have airflow. We can go with a combination of those two for my best guess. You might as well make different sections them spin around and create wind energy also. You could take the PV panels and put them vertically where they could waive as the wind blew on them. Use that same wave action like you do out at sea to generate electricity. We should change code for new construction, so that homes are built to collect and reuse energy in the most efficient way possible. Why combining heat from all your different sources to create hot water and energy. Why is it your computer and refrigerator not heating your water, for example. if we sat down and tried really hard, we could probably make much more efficient housing that still affordable. It may be less convenient, but too bad.
@loganmedia4401 Місяць тому
The battery on concrete story seems to be a myth.
@jumpingspider7105 Місяць тому
I didn't put my guess in the comments, but I guessed right. I have studied plant biology at the graduate level and its funny how this is similar to some of the tradeoffs plants have to deal with. Most plants photosynthesize at lower efficiency as the temperature goes up. This is both because of lowered enzymatic activity but also because high temperatures cause water to burn off too fast (causes leaf burns, xylem cavitation, general dehydration) -- plants respond by closing their stomata which slows the rate of carbon fixation. Plants employ lots of different strategies to increase their efficiency by reducing heat. These include white wax and hairs, as well as more vertical leaf surfaces, such as in many monocots when they are drought stressed. I think solar engi
@iRageGGB 2 місяці тому
i wonder how much more of a benefit it would be to run Vertical Bi-Facial panels with water cooling to pull more heat away from the panels into a water source for a building/home to use as a hot water source, then loop the cooled water from the building back into the solar panels. The building/home would act as basically a large heat exchange. I know Linus from LTT used the hot water from his panels to warm his pool, and the pool acts as the heat exchanger, would be interesting to see if, on a larger scale, this would be beneficial. Granted it would end up costing more due to plumbing requirements, but not having your hot water heater running constantly would likely reduce overall building electricity usage so might be a net positive.
@-joedal- 2 місяці тому
I am telling this to everybody for more than 2 years about VanLife and people putting their solar panels on their rooftops. Each morning, evening, and especialy during european winter, the sun is not up here, it is more horizontal ! Finally someone getting it 😂❤❤
@jesperlvstadkristensen5893 2 місяці тому
Yes you will be getting more power when you need it. At noon in midsummer is not when the power is most needed.
@ppavel86gmail 2 місяці тому
On the other hand for anyone else than solar farms this setup is unusable due to objects obstructing the light. Friends of mine were tinkering with the setup a few years ago and they ended with a 45° angle even in our conditions approximately 60° is best but there were trees, buildings etc.
@jooseppib1082 2 місяці тому
Who knew that pointing the panel at the sun would be a good idea
@us3rG 2 місяці тому
Would it be better on the sides?
@andremanicke8534 2 місяці тому
Bifacial modules have another benefit, independend of orientation: since both sides are glass, the cells themselves are better protected.
@501isa 2 місяці тому
Something I thought about a while ago when my parents got solar fitted was what about a water feed to wash the dust of the panels and cool them down on hot days. But then why not have the solar panels have a jacket built in with a solenoid on the bottom for drainage and one on the top for air bleed, a contact at the top to detect it is full and a water feed line. Then this could be run back to a cooling system that when it detects panel temperatures over 30C shuts the drain valves and opening the bleed valves as the panels fill with water. Once they are full the drain opens and water is pumped around the loop to a radiator. When it gets cold over night they can drain down to a storage tank so they can’t freeze. Or run a antifreeze coolant
@michaelharrison1093 2 місяці тому
One detail not discussed that is very relivant - if you factor in the time of day value of energy generated vertical PV modules might be financially much better than horizontal. Even considering when battery storage is added into the equation minimizing generation of electrical energy in the middle of the day when the spot price might be negative is a major factor to consider.
@clockworkvanhellsing372 2 місяці тому
If they are mounted in an open field anyway, one could also mount them on hinges (one plastic bearing left and right, and connected top and bottoms + a drive motor) and just flip them horizontal in the middle of the day. This would reduce the dip in the middle of the day at minimum cost.
@hoveringgoat8061 2 місяці тому
even better just automatically track the sun!
@amunak_ 2 місяці тому
Then you return to the issues with overheating. It's also way, way more complexity in the setup, extra energy use, more stuff that needs maintenance and that can break... Doesn't really make much sense.
@clockworkvanhellsing372 2 місяці тому
@@amunak_look at the graph at 3:52 the vertical east west panels (green line) have a massive dip in the middle of the day. Flipping the panels horizontal would certainly lead to higher temps and thereby lower efficiancy (for that time) but it would fill the gap abd probably cause a quite constant output over the day. And the mechanics aren't that fifferent from the window openers in greenhouses which do work with verry low maintenance.
@iamblamb501 2 місяці тому
I'd do this in a heartbeat. Opens up a lot of options for mounting etc.
@taviaseymour1635 Місяць тому
Like the idea of having them on or as your fence. Plus, less risk of hail damage.
@PhotonLukas 2 місяці тому
I have build a PV "Carport" with Bifacial Panels. It is near perfect South facing and has an angle of around 20°. The panels i have are the LG360N1T-E6. At STC without Bifacial effect they are 360W panels. With the maximum Bifacial effect stated in the datasheet it goes up to 410W. Interestingly i can confirm that they out performed that by a long shot. I measured a maximum per panel so far at 440W. And i am certain there is still more possible. I would never guessed that they would outperform the Standard Test Conditions because i live in germany where 1000W/m² is definitely not a reality. So bifacial panels are definitely worth it in the right scenario.
@cricketcorner8950 2 місяці тому
Yay, I guessed heat! Interesting to come across this today. I’m just starting to think about how to implement solar on a tiny budget. I want to do some travel when I retire, so being mobile interests me. Then my power went out and came on, then went off again, three times in a row the other day. So I started thinking about a couple of panels and storage batteries to cover some basic energy needs with the more frequent power outages I fear are coming in the future. But I don’t want to put panels on my roof, and I can’t afford a whole system. So I was thinking of putting two or three panels in a more vertical orientation where I have space next to the house along my driveway. After seeing this video, that isn’t sounding so nuts! That said, it’s a south facing location. Thanks for giving me more to ponder!
@Micha42 2 місяці тому
Two additional benefits may be privacy and noise protection. In our village, many house owners want to install something anyway.
@edabean007 2 місяці тому
i experimented with this myself. i put it down to the panels being much cooler(up to 15 degrees c) when not aimed at the australian sun directly. Edit: i was looking for longevity from the panel not a voltage increase. i thought keeping it cooler may make it last a little longer.
@KismetBP 2 місяці тому
Great info! Forget roof mounted. You have a pole in your back yard that holds vertical panels on up higher than even your roof. Benefits: 1) Easier Install. 2) You are up beyond obstructions. 3) It does not damage your roof. 4) They can be moved from home to home. 5) You don’t have to clear as much snow/debris from them. 6) They provided shade on hot days so you can chill in your hammock, with a cool drink, while getting that sweet power. ❤🤘
@jacksmith4266 2 місяці тому
Good idea. Problem is the high winds. Needs a safety mechanism to lower the panels to the ground in windy conditions.
@scottkolaya2110 2 місяці тому
It is a great option if you have the land. As far as damage to the roof goes, my panels have been on so long that the surrounding roof needs replacing, but the shingles under the panels are like new. Basically my panels protect my roof, not damage it. And basically most of my system, no one even sees.
@nicolasdujarrier 2 місяці тому
Alternatively, you can use panels from French company DualSun, and you get to both harvest thermal energy and improve photovoltaic efficiency by cooling the panels with the liquid that harvest the thermal energy to heat water.
@DomyTheMad420 2 місяці тому
i really like the idea of using these vertical solar panels as sound-barriers along highways! and the way they seem to line up with our usage-charts! (would not apply to roads, i know) almost too good to be true.
@aussie2uGA 2 місяці тому
Far too easy to vandalize. Think of how many metal signs already have “holes” put in them. Imagine letting someone know they now have all this glass around them too.
@Legoman1352 2 місяці тому
@@aussie2uGA and various pebbles would annihilate them
@ottodidakt3069 2 місяці тому
@@aussie2uGA True but pretty sure that's only a problem in 'Murica and maybe your Aussie outback, plenty of other places in the world where people are grown ups
@aussie2uGA 2 місяці тому
@@ottodidakt3069 that’s another good reason to fight to keep borders closed ;)
@FarmsVilla 2 місяці тому
Excellent video! I have 2kw of vertically mounted panels here in southern Italy. The sun is very low to the horizon in winter so these work especially well durning this season. I see between 1500 & 1800 constantly on this array from about 10am through to 4pm on clear days. Summer time they don’t do very well but that is what I expected. Would like to get my hands on some biracial panels to have a play with. 😊
@jayc222 2 місяці тому
I’ve seen projects deploying horizontal panels over canals and reservoirs to help prevent evaporative loss. Also helps the panties be more efficient by keeping them cool.
@CorvetteAustin24 2 місяці тому
Turns out motorized mounts can get the best of both worlds to maximize returns. Angle perfectly until the critical temperature is reached, then adjust to east west vertical orientation until temperature drops back to optimal temperatures. Rinse and repeat. Definitely adds complexity and more maintenance to the system, but could work wonders for efficiency!
@pingvingaming 2 місяці тому
than questions is if cost efficent as well addeding that complexity
@BobHannent 2 місяці тому
Motorised mounts are more expensive than just getting more panels these days. I have a location where I was thinking of motorised because the panels can't be roof mounted, but it's shockingly expensive compared to a static mount. The idea of a vertical mount is very interesting to me because it is potentially even easier than a traditional sloped mount, because its mounted like a fence panel with just two end posts (subject to wind loading).
@vencdee 2 місяці тому
Brilliant idea. but It should be done as DYI e.g. using cheap SOC like ESP32 and clever servo mount otherwise it would be too expensive.
@vencdee 2 місяці тому
what about mounting it at the top hanging down and the servo at the bottom tilting in +- 15 degrees at forenoon and then afternoon. Right in the morning, at noon and before evening it should stand just vertically. Such tilting should be quite sufficient. But the question is the overall daily surplus yield of energy, I would bet about 15% ?
@user-hb2gh6wh7e 5 днів тому
I hope to see these PV-fences. This is a fine farming technique. I've been growing in part-sun, and it is essential for many things during the hot months
@Canthus13 2 місяці тому
So I've seen people do this in the van life community - just hang their panels on the side of their van when parked because it's easy, and they've noticed improved output compared to angled on the ground. I get that it's 'anecdotal', but that's enough for me to try it on my next build. It might be more work than it's worth to bring them out every time I stop, but that's easy enough to remedy.
@saurianwatcher4437 2 місяці тому
The other bonus of BVPV in agriculture: you don't really need to restrict to short crops. You can just stilt the panels to be a few feet higher to get over taller crops like corn and sunflower.
@alanpleiman3378 2 місяці тому
nah, too much underground infrastructure to work well with traditional farm equipment.
@adr2t 2 місяці тому
The only problem with taller crops will be the over all cost of installing it would out pace the return by a long shot. You are not just talking about getting over the crops, but also having room for everything else as well. Taller the infrastructure the harder it also has to work with weather such as wind, rain, and snow hitting them.
@paulthepainter2366 2 місяці тому
Fyi I skip the beginning every time to avoid the music. Thank you for the excellent videos and knowledge
@uberpixzels 2 місяці тому
Definitely, the music is just wrong.
@user-ij1nv8be3i 2 місяці тому
Hear hear ! Pun not intended. Stop irritating 'music' on the 'background' !
@user-vj2eo6xp5k 2 місяці тому
A friend of mine is already thinking about a solar fence around his complete garden. And i am thinking about a solution of wall-mounted vertical cells. Not for summer, but more for the winter, when the sun is low in angle, this would mean a significantly higher yield, when facing south. I must admit that the cooling factor is really interesting - never thought about it, even though the technical background is known well to me. 2mV/K can be a lot in a high amount of serially connected pn-junctions :) that can be easily add up to 30V difference in a string.
@o0shad0oo 2 місяці тому
Very interesting... 1. If the direction the panels are placed runs east-west, the extra power received from the "back" side isn't as important. Further, I've noticed most standard solar panels have white backs. If they had black backs instead, would vertical single-sided panels also benefit from improved heat dissipation? 2. One of the biggest enemies of solar farms is hailstorms, and one of the reasons I haven't gone ahead with a planned solar system was fear of a hailstorm taking it out. Mounting panels vertically would mitigate nearly all of the issue.
@redsquirrelftw 2 місяці тому
One of the big advantages too is that snow is less likely to stay on them so that means less maintenance and output immediately once it's daylight. When I setup my off grid solar system I plan to go vertical for that reason alone.
@greenbimoon 2 місяці тому
I live offgrid on a farm in Södermanland in Sweden 🇸🇪 I would like to try this vertical system as it would stop most of my snow loading. But also interested how it would work when also in winter my sun east to west angle is really small. Sommer is quite the opposite, with sun going more NE to NW. I'll build my next array this way and do my own research. Thanks, Matt, as always, a great presentation.
@RetiredPaul 2 місяці тому
If seen articles about angled solar PA panels with thermal collectors mounted on the back of them. This benefits the PV panel by providing cooling, as in the video, and also heats the water - a double bonus.
@wiciuwiciu2783 Місяць тому
I frequently pass a house with solar panels vertically on the side of the wall (barn wall to be exact) I thought about it as funny... But now I know it's brilliant! Also! The guy had limited space near his house (kinda steep mountain). And reinforcement of the roof is sometimes more expensive than whole solar installation.
@Toastmaster_5000 2 місяці тому
I'm surprised the following hasn't been brought up: 1. Solar panels are quite reflective, as you can see in a lot of shots in this video. I wouldn't be surprised if vertically-aligned panels can absorb some of that reflected light more easily. Depending on the time of day, I could see that contributing more to energy collection than the panels being cooler. Let's face it - the Netherlands isn't exactly a hot country, so it seems a little odd to me their solar panels are suffering _that_ much from heat. 2. If the panels are mounted vertically, surely, it would take little to no effort to just use the same rack to mount a pair of monofacial panels opposing each other. This of course is assuming it's cheaper per KWH to do that rather than use bifacial panels. 3. If your land is long but narrow, you could always just do a tower of vertical panels. Might be difficult to handle strong winds, though. 4. I'm sure you could dramatically improve the light collection by using a white/reflective surface on the ground. A thin layer of small white gravel could be an incredibly cheap way to make a significant performance improvement.
@GuardianOfRlyeh 2 місяці тому
I thought about the reflectiveness of the panels when I saw the thumbnail ;) Would be interesting to see if you can adjust them so the light can better bounce between them. Maybe some kind of slight curve in the panels itself? And the monocrystalline cells for the main side and polycrystalline for the back side to get more energy from the diffuse light. Just some thoughts :)
@byronwatkins2565 2 місяці тому
Convection cooling is also more effective on vertical surfaces.
@javaguru7141 2 місяці тому
This
@nicolasdujarrier 2 місяці тому
Alternatively, you can use panels from French company DualSun, and you get to both harvest thermal energy and improve photovoltaic efficiency by cooling the panels with the liquid that harvest the thermal energy to heat water. DualSun claims that they have the best overall efficiency as they harvest both thermal + photovoltaic energy.
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