I'm fairly certain that when bullets start flying and people start getting air conditioned no one has ever stopped to say "it's only a .380, I'll be fine".

I’m a firefighter/Emt. I’ve been on a few shootings. Two of them were self defense shooting’s with a 380, and we flew out 3 attackers to a trauma center. When they got hit with the round from the 380, they went down, and each only was only hit with 1 round. Facts from the street.

The 380 was originally a police caliber cartridge. An advantage of the 380 is that because of the lite recoil, you can put more lead on target

I honestly drew the opposite conclusions from the data presented here. .380 got the job done; all of those shots were put-downs, even if they were less spectacular than the obviously more deadly 9mm's results. Shots that don't exit the target aren't going through walls into my kid's room, or into innocent bystanders. Unless you see yourself facing armored opponents, 9mm seems like overkill, based on what I saw here. Different strokes, I guess?

For someone restricted to carrying a .380 because of brazilian stupid laws, this video was a blessing. Thank you!

Hello, Fraser, co-owner of Defiant Munitions here. It was great to see Mike and Charlie once again using our ammo! If the devastation caused by our TCX round isn't enough to stop a bad guy, it seems possible they will be set on fire! We also have the only .380 expanding ammunition that I am aware of that meets the FBI standard. Stay defiant! Sincerely, Fraser Disney Co-owner Defiant Munitions

I carry .380 because I know as a defensive round, it will mortally wound my target with a lower potential of exiting and going beyond. You basically proved that the larger or powerful round it just that larger and more powerful.

I actually find it very good that .380 doesn’t go all the way through. If you happen to be in a populated area and want to reduce collateral casualties I think .380 is great. Getting good ammo like Hornady or Fiocchi hollow points that have been tested by many good UKpostsrs would make a difference. I tend to carry one mag with hollow points and one with FMJ.

The .380 meets the first and most important criteria for any participant in a firefight: Have A Gun. It can, properly employed, meet the second most important criteria: Make well placed hits in a vital area. Criteria after those two are interesting, and we spend a whole lot of time discussing them, but after the first two criteria are satisfied, they fade quickly into secondary insignificance.

As a retired detective, I can tell you that 380 is indeed lethal.

My friends nephew is a HWY patrolman of 5’6” around 175lbs. Small. Dead of night pulls over car and big black gets out. Cause for search, cuff for protection. Cop had one cuff on before he turned and grappled. Wrestling on the side of I85 230am. 310lbs vs 175lbs. Big guy on top now and going for his 9mm. Cop goes for his ankle 380 and plugs him twice in ribs. Dies on top of him. 380 works.

I dated an ER Nurse for quite sometime and she told me basically everyone hit with standard calibers (9mm, .45, etc) the bullet passed through and in many instances survived. The real troublesome shots were when bullets didn't pass through, bounced around or were in pieces or caused erratic wound tracks, like .22 LR. She saw, more people die from .22 LR wounds after the fact than 9mm wounds.

I knew 4 inches was a lot. Thanks for reinforcing guys. 👍🏻

Just goes to show no matter what your carrying, whether be a P320, a 2011, duel wielding Single Action Revolvers (Based), training and getting trigger time is what really matters.

380 was originally called 9mm short because thats exactly what it is. They changed the name because people were loading them into their 9's. Just a tip for people that have both calibers: be very careful not to mix up your ammo. Ive accidentally loaded 380 into my 9's because i had a box of 380 open and mix with my 9mm

With the recent advancements in ammo technology, both the 9mm and the .380 have made significant strides since the early 1980s. The 9x19 will always be a bit ahead of the 9x17. Just as the .357 magnum will always be ahead of the .38 caliber.

I remember responding to a call where a fella tried to execute another fella with what I believe was a .380 (details a little hazy now). Executor was on meth and missed fellas head hitting him in the shoulder. I get there almost instantly which is rare in LE. I make contact with the victim and he told me he was shot in the shoulder. I remember being strangely underwhelmed by the Gunshot wound of what the .380 did.

Every one of those shots with the .380 was potentially lethal as were the shots with the 9mm. In the end, it comes down to bullet placement, as always.

My recommendation is to carry what you are comfortable with, and can shoot well. Any round that makes holes, and causes an attacker to hurt and bleed , is a good defensive round. ( even .22). I like revolvers, and often recommend them to new shooters, and women with smaller wrists. Not everyone can shoot often, or get to the range regularly, not many are trained to clear “ stovepipes” and jams. Revolvers are simple and easy to learn. The purpose of defensive shooting is to make an attacker go away and quit attacking…any gun that does that is good defense.

If you are dead from a .380 a gunshot, you aren’t more dead from a 9mm gunshot. It’s all about shot placement folks.

Ok, these intros are becoming legendary. You guys are absolutely killing it.

On the subject of that last part, it has been said many times before, the weaker gun you actually carry is more useful than the more powerful one you leave at home.

Carried a .380 as a backup to my duty weapon, never questioned it's abilities.

The .380 in your pocket beats the 1911 you left at home or in your truck. I love my little LCP because it is so easy to stick in an IWB holster or your back pocket. It isn't the only thing I ever carry but, it gets carried more than anything else because it is so easy to conceal.

I personally wouldnt want to be hit with a 22 LR, much less 380. Also, one thing that people often dont think about calibers that are often considered "underpowered" is that their ordinary factory ammo tends to me subsonic, which is an interesting plus depending on what you wanna do. Also, stopping power is outdated af, what stops a determined attacker is hypovolemic shock or central nervous system shutdown. Unless you're carrying something like a shotgun, shot placement and volume of fire will always be way more important than how large your bullet is.

The character dynamic between Charles and Mike is the best.

The 380 is extremely comfortable for me to carry and shoot. Over a lot of years, I have carried many different sizes and calibers, and I can tell you the gun that you consistently carry because it's comfortable and capable is better than the 45 you left at home because you where just going to the gas station.

When the .380 did the head shot and they were saying “it didn’t do anything.” I was thinking, “I really hope that is sarcasm because anybody receiving that shot would definitely disagree.” Also follow up shots will almost always occur so it’s not just a one and done shot.

The real question is not whether we can see a difference in performance, but whether the bad guy can feel one.

As a pathologist with forensic training (though I don't practice in that field), I was quite impressed with the .380. Yes, I wasn't standing there, but from what I could observe, there was no instance where the 9mm reached a vital organ that the .380 did not. In addition, the .380 frequently (?always} failed to exit the target dummy, sometimes by the slimmest of margins. You didn't test shooting through cover, so it's definitely possible that the 9mm will out perform the .380 in some of those circumstances, but how often does that really occur in a civilian self defense shooting? However, based upon what I could see in your video, I'm going to say that I believe the .380 is superior to the 9mm in crowded urban environments due to it's virtually equal penetration and repeated demonstration of a lack of overpenetration.

I've always been a 1911 .45 ACP guy however I found that my KAHR P380 ACP is powerful enough to go through car windshields plus do the job to get me out of trouble. The reason I switched to this firearm is because it is small enough to be concealed in the palm of your hand and is nearly as thin as a wallet with a cool 1911-looking frame.

Thanks for this video. It is very informative. But IMHO, an important part of self-defense is not to injure anyone with a bullet that is so powerful that it goes through the assailant and hits a bystander. The most powerful caliber or bullet is not always the right choice. I'm very confident in my .380 carry - the Ruger LCP Max is hard to beat if you really want or need your concealed weapon to be truly concealed. Just my two cents. YMMV

380 ACP handguns tend to be much easier to conceal. It was finally mentioned towards the end of the video.

I was shot in the face and shoulder with a .380 point blank on a traffic stop. It sucked, shattered my jaw and blew out 9 teeth. Took 4 years and 9 surgeries to fix everything. It’ll take the wind out of your sails for sure, but with any caliber I think shot placement matters most. Love the channel!!!

Very interested to see how .32 ACP would perform.

9mm temple shot was epic in slow motion. Always enjoy the production quality and topics you cover. Great stuff.

One thing I noticed, the .380 is less likely to go through the target and hit something behind it. That is a positive thought if you are in tight quarters with potential to hurt those you don't want to. I love my .380. I also love my 9. Just depends on the job at hand.

Less than 30 seconds into video, and Charlie already making it an instant classic!

I spent most of my life behind a weapon system of one type or another, from my first .22 at age 5, which I wandered our 240,000 acre west Texas cattle ranch with for thousands of happy hours , to my lever action 30-30, 45 LC pistols, 30.06 hunting rifles, dozens and dozens of guns for purposes ranging from plinking to hunting to protection to competition. A fine way to grow up. After college came the Air Force and the F-15C. A 20mm loaded with depleted uranium is um... effective. After the military state and federal law enforcement. Local sheriff department here in my native Texas to eventual task force SWAT commander with the DEA running 3 narcotics entry teams. Giving away my age, back to the Era of the Task Force lol. Eventually I became a captain with a major airline and went on to retire, but I had some amazing experiences as a leo. Besides SWAT I served as both fixed wing and rotor wing police pilot. No more F-15 but the various helicopters biz jets and OV-10 were fun. As a deputy sheriff and swat member, my partner and i were involved in an extended car chase and ambush with three gang bangers who murdered a young couple, their 4 year old son and two year old daughter to get their TRUCK. WITNESSES said the 4 year old flung himself at his little sister and wrapped himself around her with his back to the shitheads, trying to save her. Six 9mm rounds through his little back killed them both though . Later when my partner came across this truck southbound on hwy I-35, He read the BOLO and called for help. Due to idiotic liberal inspired chase policies nobody could/would stay with him. He and I served on SWAT together and when i heard his voice I radioed "John I've got your back till the end. Lets end these assholes." So thats what we did. After an extended chase they blew both front tires curb hopping in a dark country cemetary. We had outrun all our backup. Long story but I killed two and John killed the last one. We tried to call for surrender but they knew they were done based on their crimes. Training paid off, outnumbered, outgunned and in the dark, forced to react , I killed two swat style, double tap center mass and a single to the head. John did the exact same thing to the remaining punk. I was shot in the upper arm during the car chase by one of the shitheads with an AR-15, but it was through and through, missed bone and I didn't feel it until being checked out at Wilford Hall when it was all over. An experience I had that fits todays craziness happened 3 years after I retired. My wife and I were walking to our truck after a pleasant night on the riverwalk with some friends. I saw three guys coming towards us on the dark walkway then one peeled off and looked to be trying to flank us. I whispered our code word to my wife and saw her draw her pistol and hide it behind her leg. I moved to put myself between her and them. We were close to the truck, I took my key and pressed it into her left hand and whispered "3rd guy right" not knowing if she'd under because we were out of time. We had altered course as much as possible to give us the best chance but we were effectively in a corral now. If I didnt do what I did for a living and i hadnt made her and my children practice, we would have died that night. They approached faster and my wife yelled "knife!" And began firing. I saw a man produce a pistol and i triple tapped him high in the chest. I turned to engage the 3rd flanking guy and my wife put 3 rounds into him and did a tactical reload better than many of my front line officers. He was not down but his hands were empty and he was stumbling away. The one I shot appeared to be DRT, and the first one my wife shot, the knife wielder, was alert enough to be a threat but had lost his weapon. I asked my wife if she could cover while I cuffed and she did. Cops and ems were enroute, a local bartender told us. Im a licensed paramedic so i got bleeding stopped on the two my wife engaged . My tango's bleeding days were over. I located all weapons and photographed in situ with my phone and asked our new bartender friend to do the same which she did.. Police and EMS arrived at first no familiar faces but Then Joe, an old friend and head of homicide division, showed up . Finally I felt we could relax. I called my attorney who was there in about 20 minutes. If you carry a gun you need to carry an attorney, trust me!!! Its true they're hard to find holsters for, but make one out of an ace bandage if you have to. But GET ONE, CAPISCE? I didnt mean to write a novel or to attempt a mutiny on your page, GT! unfortunately Im fighting cancer and sometimes i get carried away. I love your channel, btw 😉

Good review. I prefer 9mm as well BUT my ruger LCP in 380 is so concealable that I treat I as my hot Florida summer EDC. Can comfortably appendix carry it wearing shorts, tank top, flip flops and be TOTALLY concealed. Being well aware of the round’s limitations, it’s better to carry the 380 than make the foolish decision to leave it home because it’s uncomfortable or is too hard to conceal well. So 9mm is 3 season EDC and 380 LCP is summer EDC

I have 9's and 380's and what I'm always concerned about is over penetration and I feel no one addresses that on UKposts. A part of me would rather not shoot than find out after the fact I hit someone's kid because the bullet passed through. I would appreciate if you guys did a video or a few videos talking about pass-through or over-penetration.

That opening is my new favorite thing. As a Wes Anderson and firearms enjoyer I really appreciate the crossover, those two things unfortunately dont overlap much.

From a fellow Charles, I just wanted to say that everyone knows that comic relief is essential to any good show. I laugh out loud every time I watch these vids. You two make a dastardly duo turning solid ballistic gel into a mountain of mess! Please keep up the good work, and stay funny! 🤘🏼

love what u guys are doing u just showed up in my feed after a long time good luck thanks for the entertainment!!!

Charlie is the personification of Intrusive Thoughts and I love it. I think .380 might actually be preferred in crowded areas because it's much less likely to overpen. Nothing could be worse than hitting your target and then hitting the old woman behind it. And as noted: it's better than nothing at all, and certainly better than .25 or .32.

I work on an ambulance, I carry a S&W bodyguard because of its size. It’s super easy to conceal, and if a patient were to attack I believe it would be effective at that short range. Of course I hope I never have to use it, but you see a lot of crazy stuff in EMS, and you never know.

The .380 handgun I wanted was cheaper, smaller, and lighter vs the 9mm, as was the ammo. Reasons enough for me when considering my preference for CC.

I'm a fan of G9 ammo in any caliber. It's great stuff, but I would like to have seen these tests done with clothes on the dummies to see how this ammo works through fabric. You did say that clothing can clog some types of ammo and render it less effective. I doubt many will encounter naked foes.

As an ex service person, I carried first a Browning 9mm High Power and a Sig p226 9mm. I used a my browning a couple times in field. Its topping power proven very good. For the past decade, I have lived in Mexico and Married a lovely Mexican women. As we have a very large 650m2 house, it is very visible to the locals...and so we keep a Sig380 as a weapon for our house security. It is the largest caliber legal by law. While I was away one weekend, a group of 4 men broke into the house and had a truck outside to take all the furniture's. We know people who have had this happen and many die. My wife and daughter were home alone, and she confronted them through the lounge room where they were entering through the balcony door. Distance 6 meters On seeing her with a weapon...the first two immediately rushed her with a machete raised high. She place 4 rapid shots to center mass and the first guy, and went down like a poleaxed steer. This was a BIG dude. She got one shot off to the second guy and hit him upper left thigh. He went down. The other two ran. Our internal security video footage caught all this. The police just said " good kill" and left it at that .... even before I arrived home. The moral of the story...even after being a 9mm shooter my entire life...I have the greatest confidence in a woman ability to stop an attacker with a 380. Id she could...I will have no problems. You need to live this live to understand if it is good or not. Running figures and ballistic gel is not a good indicator of what it will do! I recommend sig 365 380. From experience.

Mr. Thumb, please make your next ballistics test video about the effectiveness of various short barreled rifles at longer distances on gel torsos. It would be interesting to see how much damage a 10.3-11.5 inch barrel can do at 300+ yards compared to a 14.5-18 inch, also various ammo like mk262 vs m855 etc. Because everyone already knows you can make shots pretty far with intermediate calibers, but there aren't good gel tests. The evidence for or against lethality largely consists of anecdotes from the war on terror.

You two are too funny! Love ya! And thanks for awesome, informative, enlightening and entertaining reviews!! Merry Christmas to you all!!

If it's good enough for Al Capone and Boonie and Clyde in real life, then it's good enough for all these theoretical gun fighters. 🤣

I mean... a .22 can kill a man. So... is it effective, yes, to an extent. I love these informational videos, we get to learn so much.

Yes the 9 is more powerfull, but all of the shots by the 380 looked more than adequate to stop most threats.

No mention of overpenetration. My boss bought a .40 for home defense and I reminded him that the projectile will likely go through a perp, the wallboard behind him and through the room behind it. This could be a problem if you have family. I'd like to see wallboard setup behind these tests on mannequins. I suspect the 9mm would go through into a room behind but not the .380.

First time I've seen this channel and the opening jokes were great. Instant follow. Love the nerd coats.

It's great to see Charlie back, he adds some great humor to the channel.

the slomo shot on the G9 .380 was incredible. its was so close to punching through. crazy watching it suck back into the gel

Very informative video. Thank you. From personal experience I can tell you that two shots from a .380 can save your butt. I was 65 then and after the SD incident switched from mostly pocket carrying a P3AT to mostly pocket carrying a Kahr PM9. I'm 79 now and because of increasing arthritic pain in my hands I'm giving serious consideration of going back to a .380. Probably the Ruger LCP Max because of my preference for pocket carry.

I own several of both, but find myself carrying a .380 far more than the 9MM. My current carry choice is a Ruger LCP Max with a 12 round mag. I like the extra capacity and the slightly longer mag makes it more comfortable in my hand. It's small, very easy to conceal and if pressed into service will do just fine. The key to any weapon is being proficient in its use. Dirtbags normally don't face trained armed resistance. Whether I pull out a .380 or a 9mm I'm in the fight. #hooah #soldierforlife

A 380 is fantastic for summer carry. They can be really easy to conceal with light clothing.

Charlie is a national treasure. The undisputed KING of awkward. I seek to be more like Charlie every day.

This was a very informative video for me. I’ve been trying to choose between 9 mm and a .380 for conceal carry. Right now I have a Glock 23 .40 caliber but it’s just too bulky as CC. But actually seeing the difference in penetration between the .380 and the 9 mm was really really helpful. Thank you guys.

One of the things I learned in the firearms course I took, was being wary of your surroundings, and what/who is behind your target b/c of the 9mm ability to pass through. Seems like the .38 might be a safer option to avoid potential liability for any unintended injury.

got them all. 9s, 45s, etc.. here in AZ a .380 in the pocket or J frame is a lot more concealable 6 months out of the year than alternatives. also, let's be clear about over-penetration.. not a good thing if defending yourself in a crowded situation. you are responsible for that bullet from the time you buy it until it completes it's mission. great video.. glad I ate lunch before seeing it.

.380 was the load of choice for most police sidearms (and some countries' militaries) through most of the 20th century. Obviously, it'll do the job if you can hit what you shoot at.

Can you please create a video “How Deadly is 327 Federal Magnum? Is the Unknown Revolver Suitable for Carry” 327 Fed Mag is completely overlooked. It allows a tiny J-Frame sized revolver to chamber 6 rounds instead of 5. The Ruger LCR 327 only weighs 17 ounces. 327 Fed Mag delivers more energy than 9mm and is comparable to 357magnum. Revolvers chambered for 327 Fed Mag can also chamber -32 H&R Magnum -32 S&W Long -32 S&W Short (In a pinch they can also fire 32 ACP) This would be a fun video with tons of info for viewers and very entertaining. Since it’s a SUPER RARE caliber that’s also SUPER POWERFUL but it can also fire low recoil for new shooters or those who are more recoil sensitive. I know your a family man that values growing. What better way than to showcase a Chambering that all members of the family can enjoy. Young or Old. Men and Women. Girls and Boys alike. New shooters or veteran sharpshooters such as yourself.

I love your duo comedy. Its crude, subtle and smart at the same time. Great content and SUPER funny. SUBSCRIBED!!!!

The Wes Anderson-style intro was 110% on point masterfully done

The appeal to the .380 pistols is the concealability. Most of the year, I carry a 9mm. But, in hotter weather, I carry a .380 because it's lightweight and doesn't print under a t-shirt. Another channel did ballistics testing testing on the different brands of .380 ammo in the smaller, shorter barrel .380 pistols and found that the Speer Gold Dot was the best performing .380 ammo. It's all I carry in my .380 pistols now.

Great video gentlemen.

In Florida shorts and T shirts rule. I carry a standard Ruger LCP in my pocket. I bought a Diamondback DB9 which is tiny and +P rated. It's my truck gun. Great video guys.

I typically go .380 during summer since people don’t layer up and 9millie during winter. I believe nobody wants to get shot by neither. Good content! Stay training and aware!

If we are talking day to day life the 380 did outperform the 9mm maybe not ballistically but it passed, and you are responsible for that bullet even after it leaves the body of the assailant. what you showed is that the 380 will kill who you are shooting at with less chance of killing or injuring other people due to pass through. along with the lighter weight and less recoil it's definitely a great round.

Great video just what I wanted to see with the two calipers. My wife is (temp) replacing the sig p365 9mm for the S&W bodyguard 380. I updated the rds to hornady XTP but will look into the G9s. Also can you guys do a video with the gel but put a tee shirt, sweater & coat on it. Lol

I can't believe how much you and Charlie make a commercial fun to listen to.

The .380 in your pocket will do you a lot more good than the .45 that’s on the nightstand cause it’s too big to actually carry and/or conceal.

The best thing to happen for 380's is that more manufacturers started producing more offerings. This has really helped in the availability of 380 ammo. It took many hours before to ever find ammo for a 380 due to this lack of popularity. So, Thank You.

Intro was hilarious. Love you guys.

Most important factor is effective penetration if your in a situation where your defending yourself or others and others are potentially in the line of fire having a round that exits with any amount of velocity could be harmful to others or even loved ones. I was taught it’s not take one shot and wait to see how effective it is but rather fire as many rounds as necessary to stop the threat. 380 might not have the glory or may not be “Cool” to carry but in a defensive situation it’s more than adequate. As far as not wanting to be “Out Gunned” short of dragging around a Cannon you always have the possibility of be outgunned.

"I know for a fact 4 inches is still a big deal on camera" ... Charlie kills me

Big thanks for the .380 ballistic dummy testing! Quality testing for this caliber is surprisingly scarce on YT. Can we get a 5.7x28 video testing different loads and barrel lengths next please?

Living in Florida you’re limited to pretty light clothing. I like to carry my 9 or .40 when I can, but most of the time I lean towards my little .380 M&p. Something about being able to fit it in a pocket( with holster covering trigger) or waistband of shorts and a spare magazine in my pocket makes me feel better. Will I want more in a shtf situation? Yes. Would I also feel the same with a bigger caliber, probably. I’ve seen people lit up with pistol rounds that survived long enough to still do damage. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.

Best example video online period bruh yall did that!! Gives us a real world review of both calibers.

The resurgence of the .380s popularity has led to the development of some remarkable loads. 40 years ago the .380 was a pretty lousy choice with the available ammo selection, but nowadays it's adequate. Not as good as a 9mm, but functionally worthwhile as a self-defense round and certainly has a place in today's market.

All 380 shots may not have penetrated as far as 9mm but, all 380 shots were kill shots.

love the info and science , you guys keep me laughing !! thank you

Love your guys videos good facts and good comedy thank you gentlemen

Based off this video I'd figure the .380 is a totally valid option. Especially if you want a smaller firearm for your ccw.

I gotta say…I can’t miss an episode that’s got Charlie in it. Literally one of the best things in the internet

Greetings from the Philippines! Good stuff btw.

Say ya try a 380 +P and see the comparison. If the gun can handle higher pressure rounds of course. See a pretty substantial difference between the regular 45s and the +P ones I put together.

Well, if a 380 is used in a place where there are other people, the lack of exiting the target could be a potential benefit. If anything, I would think a lighter grain frangible projectile with a hot loading, would be best on a bad guy not wearing body armor. The idea being, you want to transfer as much energy into the target with minimal over penetration to prevent injuring other bystanders. I think it's fare to say, regardless of caliber, when you start putting holes in someone where they don't belong, they are going to have a very bad day.

I love this channel. Charlie is absolutely hilarious, and if he's getting paid then he deserves a raise!

My every day carry is a Glock 42 with Trijicon HD XR Night Sights and a 9 round ETS magazine fitted with an XGRIP for a full three-finger grip. I load the magazine with 8 rounds maximum, plus one in the chamber, to ensure 100% reliability. Ammo of choice is Underwood Extreme Penetrator 380+P. This combination has very little recoil, is very controllable and EXTREMELY accurate! I carry it 24/7 in a pocket holster and honestly it's so light and compact that I forget it's there. The best self-defense pistol is the one you never leave home without!

have you done the comparison of the 22 mag , 5.7, and the 9 mil. as well as the volume of rounds

Absolutely love the different intros. Really working that creative side and we appreciate it.

@7:06 I can tell you, That was Definitely Defiant 😂 Love your work guys!

Excellent review, I carry the S&W Bodyguard. It gives tight patterns out to 20 yards. Great CC Pistol.

Well, you convinced me. The .380 is a good defensive round. This is the kind of commentary you are dealing with when you have Tim the Toolman Taylors trying to convince you that the round is weak. The only thing they said that makes sense. Practice, practice, practice. In a crowded room I think I would rather have the .380 knowing that little Johnny behind the bad guy is not going to be a causality as well.