I don’t know yet of any decent arm chip which can do very good PCIe anything even apples PCIe is sort of pointless. And the internal gpu‘s are a joke no matter how one turns it.

PC gaming is such a relatively minuscule element to the space that it won't much matter one way or the other. For example, in 2022 286.2 million PCs were sold, but only 30.34 million discrete GPUs were. That's basically 10.6%, assuming all those dGPU target gamers, that is already being split with AMD CPU competition. Never mind the fact that AMD has APUs competent for casual gaming needs. That other 89.4% having their needs met in better ways that don't involve gaming is the real problem. There is no reason games wouldn't work well on ARM, other than games not being coded to run natively on them. The impetus for that native programming is a shift in market share.

@@blkspade23 It doesn’t matter really if the maximum that you can reach is already hardcoded.

​@@blkspade2361 million dgpu just in q2 2023.

You don’t need all working well. Only the casual ones in the start, which they are. These will help create critical mass, and then all studios will have to at least consider them.

Well said

Every era has its beginning and end RISC-V has barely begun in the west but in the east its the only way due to balkanization or less globalized version of upcoming world order Open source nature wouldn't work with corporate systems only licencing model would work

Sounds like a disaster to me, can you imagine vendors doing a Intel and starting to add instructions that are patented, making not only hard for competitors, but hard for compiler writers. I think sometimes its good to have a dictator that can keep everyone in line.

We are at least 10 years until we see a real desktop competitor.

I don't know when risc v fans are going to stop being so delusional

Maybe for the personal computing market, not pro or company, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung will develop a in house distro of Linux the major downside is AI right now, but on the other side Win for ARM is very poor.

Yeah we never seen that happen before cyrix, AMD even intel at one time. What do you think the x86 processor had to deal with? X86 processors were all over the place some didnt even have math co processors. Seems you forgot or where born to late to know better. Judging by how you speak it seems you forgot that. 😢 Remember when Cyrix quake problem due to the cpu missing some instructions, intels cpus had. So ya you forgot about a lot of history and it seems your repeating. Get Windows seem to get along just fine without a math co processors. So your argument is invalid windows and other operating systems will adapt just like Android os did.

@@lucabartolucci919 why would they do that ? linux is better for some uses but not the desktop It's more likely that android might be able to overtake windows

@@nikos_Man Android is very crappy for desktop even for tablets. For average use Chromebooks are enought for a lot of consumers, why not Linux? Anyway as in the Apple ecosistem tenere will be a merging between mobile (smartphone) OS and desktop OS due to’ the fact that everybody use mostly phone. We start with PC, now everybody starts with phone, the interface should be similar in future, we are the past.

@@nikos_Man Linux has an excellent desktop experience as I use it everyday. What most people mean about the Linux desktop is that it can't run MS Office or some other program written for Windows application (mostly gaming). Arm hardware, at the moment, running Windows have the same issue, they can't run most of it.

True

Apple silicon is really just for nich fans most people won't pay 5k for a desktop that loses to last Gen chips

@@mddunlap03Considering Apple is industry leading in CPU and intergrated GPUs and can be had for as little as 499$ your full of it

Intel also missed out on designing the A series in addition to the M series. Phones and Tablets far outsell x86 PCs

Intel's share of CPUs in Apple laptops was indeed small but since Apple switched to own CPUs in their laptops their market share rose rather significantly while Qualcomm has been trying to enter the same space on the Windows platform for a couple of years too (like Lenovo Yoga/Flex 5G), thus like Apple it has necessary previous experience to do it well enough eventually for presenting a significant threat to Intel's share of the laptop market. So, at the moment the most likely outcome where Intel wins eventually anyway is in a Google Stadia-like online service-based model where you will own (nothing) just a screen connected to the internet while servers do the heavy work, at least as long as Intel can hold its dominant position in servers and at the prerequisite that internet tech for reducing latency improve so significantly that near instantaneous response times once associated for display latency become standard for internet latency thus make remote processing power as service possible. There are already Arm-based supercomputers while graphics cards have been used for crypto mining for a long time, so Intel's dominance in any space is far from assured, unless Intel's manufacturing technology becomes superior to what offers Taiwan or China in the future...

Microsoft has a group dedicated to that purpose, starting with when they acquired Connectix way back. Connectix was best known for emulation products to use Windows on PPC Macs and a product for running PS1 games on PC. This is where the ability to run a large library of PPC Xbox 360 games on x86 Xbox One and Series consoles was produced. Windows on ARM already has x86 emulation. It was limited to 32-bit for the first few generations but is 64-bit now.

Microsoft thinks that their name will solve everything (developers will makenprograms for their low market share product), this was the reason why they throwed away more than $6billion (Nokia), their app store was empty even basic app like social network apps wasn't avaliable on Windows Phone for 3 years, and that time the most of the users alredy bought a new non Windows phone, where they can download apps from the app store.

@@epobirs The basic philosophy of RISC should make interpreters for it much easier than from going from one CISC to another. Translating instructions into the streamlined RISC type is a lot easier and more predictable than going from one CISC to another.

@@theronwolf3296 That's nice but has no bearing on the situations faced by the companies at the time of need. Apple wasn't going from PPC to ARM, it went from MC680x0 to PPC to X86 to ARM. Likewise, Microsoft consoles backward compatibility first had to go from x86 to PPC, then back to x86, with more x86 following. Further, for the consoles, Microsoft didn't rely on an interpreter for the end product. It used iterative translation to produce the binary the user was required to download to run an Xbox 360 game on the Xbox One and later. This goes back much further to the DEC Alpha days and a product called FX!32, which got x86 Windows apps running on NT on the Alpha, with improved performance with extended use by the iterative process. This was considered viable for PC apps but not for console games.

I been lifetime and user. I would quit the day they said “sorry, all your previous software won’t work” I will stick to X86

Tbh, I certainly wasn't

Intel wasn’t 😅

Wow that's crazy bro but nobody asked.

Same as when he thought Nvidia was going to use an independent rt processor just because of the card visual design

Ah yes really showed them a 5k desktop that's slower than last Gen cpu and worse than 2 Gen old gpu..... but for the money at least they made sure it was not upgradable.

Intel won't, battlemage will suck, and I doubt if the generations after even release except for super low end

Can you explain how competition maters if the inverstors behind intel/amd/nvidia/arm are the same?

Nvidia are too far ahead at this point, wont happen sadly

New GPU makers won't help prices... See gas prices How many different gas companies are there. And why is every gas station the same price, with in 2 cents

@@attractivegd9531 Finally, somebody gets it.

I think this will start with the most widely used applications that are usually developed by big companies . These companies can afford to port their stuff to arm without it making a dent in their wallets. Especially since many of them already did that for apple silicon. And if most people switch to arm because it has better battery life and the applications they use everyday are native then you don't really have a chicken and an egg situation Gaming is a big question mark tho.

There are so many highly optimized libraries for x86 that its insane. People dont realize the extreme effort that will be required.

Nothing that a good (and fast) x86 emulator could not handle

@cbuosi At 20-30 % performance cost worse when emulating multicore. ARM vs x86 memory model need I say more

absolutely @@quantumdot7393 the performance differnece is so massive, it makes no sense at all to keep using x86. Microsoft will also develop some kind of "rosetta" if they don't have it yet and just like at apple, softare will perform better even not being ARM native.

Hey wait, don't both AMD and NVidia both sell GPU packages to board partners with a bunch of locked in supporting hardware?

That isn't remotly the same t thing.

​@@POVwithRC? They both sell the silicon and memory together but seeing as the gpu is built with a specific buss its just the way it is. But no partner boards will have different mosfets, layouts,pcb and components but do have to hit minimum signal noise specs

surely they will let you install *nix and bsds unless satya is a mythya

UEFI was all Intel. Microsoft only had peripheral involvement in that.

funny considering Apple in the 90s was closed resulting in only 5% share of the desktop market

PowerPC was the issue given IBM's real lack of pushing its capabilities. ARM is now swooping in and given its much more processor thermal efficient handling over CISC based systems. The interesting question in the future in this competing market is the unified memory architecture that Apple is using going to compete well with the standard bifurcated memory architecture of CPU and Video interfacing over a bus. Right now, Apple's GPUs are several steps behind the Video card makers in performance.

Nah, don't worry about Microsoft, worry about Arm. Arm is basically a locked down architecture, with all devices pretty much using locked ROM memory. If that comes to PC, you'll be locked out forever. Problem with porting things like GNU/Linux to Arm and use it there is that there aren't any functional drivers, and it seems pretty much mission impossible for devs to develop generic drivers for Arm based hardware. Probably it changes every Arm generation, or drivers made for hardware X is incompatible with drivers for the exact same hardware with name Y. If that's the case, you can't make things like say SATA drivers and expect them to work on all SATA devices, because there are no standards in the ARM world, except Arm, just wild wild west. SOC is the threat to freedom for computer users, not Microsoft (as much anymore). As bad as Microsoft is, they are like a smiling baby compared to the Apples and Googles of the world. Those will lock you out of anything they can, and try to control you and own you (and your mind). Mobile devices of today (made by Apple and Google-submakers) is an existential threat to humanity. They want to own you with their devices.

Even having a hybrid big little structure bricked AVX-512 lol

Hybrid cores should ALWAYS be instruction set compatible to avoid stupid software level shit. I mean they could have just split avx512 operations into two on E-cores

Old x86 stuff can easilly be emulated on new arm silicon.

guaranteed M$ is planning on a translation layer like they have for 32-bit compatibility but the performance is going to be trash. They still need devs to port to ARM. I hope it's different this time but it'll take some time either way.

Box86 emulates X86 on ARM. It works OK

Have you tried ARM Mac’s? It’s more than good enough as a holdover until heavier apps are ported.

This is an interesting question. Apple’s closed market place was propably a much easier target than PC and all it’s obscure software out there. I’m worried that businesses wont be able to transition if their particular dinosaur era program doesn’t emulate…

intel is the new ibm i think…too much hubris and too slow to pivot

I highly doubt anyone will be more efficient in emulation + memory model than the native programmable hardware that intel already provides and they can’t really do too much software things. CAD for example runs extremely bad/not at all on arm.

@@platin2148Actually CAD runs pretty well on ARM

@@chidorirasenganz Which one? Last time i tried was solidworks and that didn’t go well at all.

@@platin2148 Shapr3d

I agree if they can nail this, It would be amazing for the market

They are currently building a new fab and are the first to receive the next gen euv machines from asml so the next few years will be interesting.

They would at least signal that they are working on something to face the chalange. And they clearly don't

​@@baronvonlimbourgh1716I agree with the op. Also Intel can't pivot to arm now and expect to win. Like it or not their fate is attached to x86. That goes for AMD too they are just too stupid to realize it. These arm SoCs are not just about the CPU you also need a great GPU and AI capabilities. Something that Nvidia and Qualcomm are good at. AMD is ok but you don't win by being just ok and Intel is trash in that department. If x86 fall intell will just be a fab company like TSMC with some research like IBM

> "Unless they sell ARM systems at a subsidized price to generate users or if they can really get a very high performance gain over x86/64" Both of those things will probably happen lmao

"I don't think the ARM architecture has an inherent advantage over x86" To me this seems so true, by the time you upclock the chip, make it out of order, etc (can you hyperthread an ARM?) - it will perform GREAT = to an x86!, and take as much (ok maybe 80-90- percent as much, then you are like, "big whoop" is there really a need now?) Agree on the Intel process/node - their x86 chips are fine, and if made by TSMC would match Zen4 ones in all ways including power consuption. But sadly Intel is not TSMC. There was a time 10 yr ago, when Intel was the leading process/node manufacturer of chips, but that was a long time ago. Intel has done well - making all the "effiecency" cores (because they had to in order to compete in performance with AMD while behind by 1-2 generations in manufacturing (IMO that is the only reason the "effeicency" cores exist - i see no real need for them objectively. Let role reverse, Intel has the best node, do that then make "efficency" cores to beat AMD? or do they load down their chiplets with hyperthreading p-cores to chew Zen4 several new ones. I welcome a harware/socket compatible ARM chip so I can build an ARM desktop computer off the shelf, but if Qualcomm want to play the Apple game and sell me thier special golden rimmed toilet shaped desktop PC that is "Special" in that its parts - motherboard/vid card/etc is only made by them -------------um no fking way. open hardware platform all the way - that war was fought by IBM, and THEY lost - get over it Quallcom. IMO

Work in Progress: Project Athena from AMD

Microsoft isn't exactly a chip design company. You saw what happened when Google tried to do that in their phones

It's perfectly possible to emulate x86 in ARM though.

@@4.0.4 I never said it wasn't. It's just never going to be quite the same as running x86 software on a natural x86 CPU.

I think it will happen. People probably aren't happy with one company with as much leverage as ASML. Maybe Canon?

Script kiddies everywhere.😅

I have a UI developer in my team, who is using a company issued Linux machine. I think it was running ubuntu. During a demo I asked the guy to open the source directory on the terminal for something....he proceeded to open the gui file explorer, navigating to the dir and clicking on open in terminal. I didn't think much of it at that time. Later I asked him to move to the parent dir and the guy does the same gui maneuver instead of cd .. . It then dawned on me that most of the young folks are absolute idiots when it comes to actually knowing how the basics of how the computer works. FML

well and if sony goes for x86 ? amd has partnership with microsoft and apple i dont think that will happen.

@@florinszasz5506 it will definitely help x86 keeping its staying power for gaming if Sony would still use it for their consoles (I doubt Sony will at any time soon loose their dominance). I don't think AMD has any partnership with Apple anymore given Apple make their own chips now. I guess their partnership is active while they still sell Macs with AMD GPUs but that probably won't last for much longer (if that is even an option anymore). I don't think there are any deep partnerships between Microsoft and AMD other than with the Xbox consoles currently. Otherwise it is just making Windows work which is fairly standard with various companies and not something special with AMD. It has been more special with Qualcomm since they were the only ones that could make ARM CPUs for Windows.

@@AndersHass it could be true that they may not have any partnership with apple anymore, however i think with microsoft they have for server i might remember wrong but microsoft might use epyc cpus besides xbox and windows stuff.

Their manufacturing devision has been one of their main issues over the last 5 years. I doubt going all in on that would be wise.

@@florinszasz5506 I don't think there is a deep server partnership. EPYC is just the best and thereby why it is bought. If Intel makes something better then that would be used.

A bunch of silicon gets wasted

Apple and Nvidia are both playing games with skimpflation.

I can only hope so :P then I can use the same Vm's on all machines

Is apple even in the same sphere there bundled SoC is still weak in GPU performance compared to almost anything dedicated. And there speed comparison is a joke actually when one looks as they use the last intel mac..

@@platin2148 I don't see how anything you said here is related to the topic of roadmaps after node size stops shrinking.

Clock speed maybe, not processing power.

@@TheReferrer72 yes, processing instructions per time

​@@orthodoxNPCmaybe in the past but It had already been proven that arm can compete in high performance applications with x86. x86 can also be more efficient if some necessary changes were made. We are just seeing a conversation in CPU design. We are reaching maturity where all instruction sets are reaching the same logical end goal after many years of refinement

well see 7nm intel ultra in abt a month

Exactly, and the only reason they have "effeciency" core as well, last gen node makes for more power and more heat. Their P-cores are very good, equal and maybe a little better than Zen4 ones at equal clock (not power of course - hence their process tech being behind, and why they add those "efficiency" (skylake) cores Intel really can't do anything (what they've done has been smart - add eff cores so they can tie AMD in performance (and ignore power use since that is not winnable) - without the eff cores, AMD would be beating Intel soundly on performance, because the power draw of the P-cores alone limits thier number, due to old process node tech compared to TSMC. AMD when through the same thing 10 yrs ago - where their node was behind Intels, but back then AMD CPU design - Bulldozer - was sht and so AMD lost in BOTH power and performance!!!!!! If you go back 10 more, pentium 4 vs Athon, that was somewhere in between, AMD had the better CPU (Athlon), but Intel had the better node (so could clock the inferior Pentium4 to the moon to match the Athlon in performance). anyway I'm rambling now - just replied to say I agree with you - lol.

Wow, giant reply. Also Apple and Qualcomm claim that they offer similar or better performance while using 3x less power even though they are using 3nm process nodes which could mean that ARM isn't that much more efficient compared to x86. And by the way, 12th 13th 14th gens support both DDR4 and DDR5 which takes up physical space inside the chip. If they reserved it all for DDR5, like AMD , they could have used that extra space for more or bigger cores. Not sure how it works, exactly, to be honest. I'm still hopeful for Intel though.

You do not understand process nodes at all :-) That is hilarious. Tell me, what the the transistor density at these different manufacturer based "nanometer" nodes you are talking about? Do you even know how they decide what "nanometer" to call a node? It is not connected to transistor gates anymore like it used to be DECADES ago.

When I said "efficiency" I referred to power consumption, not performance. From what I understand, the nanometers refer to the diameter of the transistors or the little "wires" that connect everything inside a core. Smaller nodes require less electricity in order to work which decreases power consumption. Is this wrong? If the exact same architecture is shrunk in half, wouldn't it consume half power?

Have not seen anything more demanding running on arm windows. CAD program’s would basically require a different rendering engine and core handling.

@@platin2148 a critical mass of arm users will incentivize developers to compile native binaries the question is until then, how well will x86 translation work in windows ?

@@j340_official 99% sure it will not work. And developing for Arm when there isn’t any PC without enough power makes it worthless no matter if you have a billion chromebook‘s non of them will be able to run anything great. And it seems they don’t even care about the up take apple recently had in laptops as there is still no major CAD software provider supporting the platform (except fusion which is more of a semi professional thing)

@@platin2148 ​​⁠when Apple silicon was released I used to wonder too if it wasn’t a mistake leaving x86 in the dust, what about software compatibility? But then the power efficiency gains were so paramount that it was hard to ignore, and many software vendors released arm binaries for macOS. It took a while for many of them to do so, but many did the work and realized the gains. No one can know for certain right now how well arm will do in windows/pc but consumers, especially laptop users care about battery life and fan noise and power efficiency. So Qualcomm has a real chance to disrupt the laptop space, if the price is right. I can’t speak to CAD software, but many software vendors already did the work to port their apps to Apple Silicon and compile an arm build. So they can do the same for windows. For example, blackmagic DaVinci resolve has an arm version for macOS and will have an arm version for windows.

well then maybe consider making a CAD software for ARM you just found a pretty good market niche@@platin2148

starting? This is just an expansion of tech that's already on mobile computers like phones and tablets

HBM3 and 4 is already being proposed for it.

Of corse, then the industry can price lock and rig the industry ❤ gotta love companies locking everything down for “your benefit”

Tbh, before the modern computer was built on X86, but these moves seem long overdue. Windows 11 already can run a lot of mobile applications based on arm, I believe Windows 12 will make sure you can run both X86 and arm applications regardless of your platform, even at a lower performance. Tbh, I fully expect Linux systems to start actually be really viable in this ARM X86 desktop environment,just because of Chrome OS and Android, plus it will just be plain better for optimization for specific platforms

basically someone needs a ‘rosetta-like” middleware like apple has

Optimizing code from scratch takes forever vs simply using highly optimzied libraries like Intel's MKL for certain components on ones code.