"One needs to be a critic in order to be truly hopeful." A great insight.

I'm so impressed with the hosts! Both are so smart, thinking and responding on the fly, and engaged. Great interview

I've followed Jaron since the mid 80's because of his ability to make the extremely complex easy to understand, and his stance on technology oversight for transparency and fairness. I think if tech had more people like him, we'd likely be a lot further advanced than we already are with considerably more useful technology benefiting society, which has always been his aim.

He is one of those people who not enough people have heard of, but who will be remembered as one of the greats. Well done for having him.

Jaron Lanier is an underrated voice (probably because his message would cost Social Media companies a lot of money!)

a note about the CC subtitles: what is written is "Providence," but Jaron Lanier is actually saying "Provenance" - in the framework of Data Provenance. not sure if it was pointed out in comments, and just in case someone needs clarity there, because this is probably the most important point Jaron Lanier is making.

I think his argument about open source falls completely flat simply because closed source has lead to the very thing he suggests open source would do. I'd much rather live in a world where everything is hyper centralized and open source than hyper centralized and closed source.

Bring this man here again, and each time will be unique and full of freshness. Well done Jaron!

Why is this guy so likeable? The way he speaks, the explanations, they're so engaging, made me want to hear more and learn about such a new topic like AI. What an amazing session.

It’s underrated just how much he can dumb down these topics for us regular people. I’m sure when geniuses talk to each other in private, it sounds like another language.

I love Jaron every time I hear him talk and always end up feeling enriched

When I lived in the Bay Area in the 80s I remember Jaron being a big deal in the hobbyist computer world when he was really pushing the boundaries of the limited tech that was available then. I really appreciate that he’s still at it today and is great at taking that 30,000 ft view of the coming revolution.

The interesting thing is that Microsoft hired him to be an independent dissenting voice (so he told me). Much like Minsky, they actively want to engage in the argument. That is encouraging to me.

Jaron Lanier is a legend; he has some great books and I cannot recommended them enough as he's just such a thoughtful, insightful dude. A particular favourite of mine is "Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now". The title, you would think, says it all but that book is so full of amazingly erudite observations and suggestions. It changed my life in the sense that it framed for me the acerbic toxicity of social media so succinctly that I never looked back on abandoning every single shred of social media interaction in my life.

I was skeptical of Jaron, but he has mostly sold me that he is one of the few people who understand the real issues.

The moment you notice jaron lanier has some new content 🥳🥳

I remember him from my Mondo2000 days, true pioneer who would have steered computing in the right direction if it had not been high jacked by capitalist

Interesting interview but an improvement for next time would be to have at least one interviewer who understands on a technical level how different models work. Recommender systems are not at all the same thing as large language models, like saying cardiology and pediatrics are the same thing because they are both "medicine".

Holy cow! This guys looks like he would be speaking well above your head, but man, he speaks plainly and in a way that a regular person can understand. He’s got a very great skill in this.

Awesome conversation ! We want more Jaron !

Jaron was correct on every point in this interview. And the interviewers were on the ball, and actually listened.

Why did you cut in the middle of him speaking? What did he say that you left out of this version of the video? Just curious.

Its so nice to hear brilliant ppl like him.

Thanks for Jaron and the 2 hosts for this interview, it gives me hope to see humans working on the future ways forward

People who know there is no black and white are great. I like these kinds of interviews. Regulation is very important.

TLDR: 00:41 🌐 Jaron Lanier, a Silicon Valley pioneer, criticizes the industry he helped build, offering insights into technology's dark side and AI's future. 03:41 🧠 Being a critic doesn't negate optimism; Lanier believes true optimism lies in challenging for improvement, remaining critical yet hopeful for better outcomes. 05:43 💸 Lanier argues that in a market economy, either consumers pay for services or someone manipulates them; embracing participation means accepting the responsibility to support fair economies. 06:24 🔄 Open-sourcing may lead to monopolization due to network effects, discouraging decentralization and incentivizing proprietary control, contrary to the ideal of democratization. 17:02 🤖 Providence, tracking data sources, can counter deep fakes, facilitating accountability and fraud prevention in AI systems, requiring robust systems and regulatory involvement. 21:25 💼 Lanier values customer satisfaction and participation in the market economy, advocating for tech companies to engage more openly with speech, benefiting their business performance. 21:53 🗣 He believes more openness, public dialogue, and diverse perspectives within closed-off tech giants like Google and Meta could enhance their operations and overall success. 22:22 🚫 Lanier doesn't have a predefined breaking point to walk away but suggests decisions would depend on specific circumstances, highlighting the subjective nature of such choices. 22:34 🌐 Acknowledges imperfections in Microsoft, comparing its size to that of a country, implying the impracticality of pursuing pure perfectionism in such vast entities.

Criticism is the true face of optimism, and courage is the true face of criticism. Live with a backbone.

Can somebody explain to me his argument that open source leads to hyper-centralization. He said its due to mathematics and that there are numerous examples but he didn't explain the math or mention an example. "Releasing the code supports emergent monopolies"

Every time i hear Jaron speak I wonder how he managed to roll nat 20s on Wisdom, Intelligence AND charisma. I think hes a benevolent matrix agent insert.

Jaron has been a pioneering voice on tech for decades.

Yes, a very nice conversation, I especially liked the idea of a strong legislative structure being able to actually facilitate innovation, having never thought of it that way. The other lovely part was about humans liking to make things which others wil buy, because in order for one to buy, one has to be willing to give up a part of one's living (as in 'making a living').

"The Critic is the True Optimist" - this defines my entire career (and my success in it). Being brave enough to point out (and then fix) problems is critical for tech. Great interview.

This is the most coherent I've ever seen Jason. Great to see.

Jaron Lanier's contributions and perspectives are particularly relevant in the current scenario for several reasons: 1. Ethical AI Development and Use: In an era where AI is becoming increasingly integrated into various aspects of our lives, Lanier's insights remind us of the importance of ethical considerations in AI development. His emphasis on data dignity, where individuals are recognized and compensated for their contributions to AI training, is crucial for ensuring fair and ethical use of personal data. 2. Critical Evaluation of Technological Advancements: Lanier's role as a critic, despite being a pioneer in the field, is essential. In a time when technological advancements are rapidly evolving, having a voice that not only celebrates these developments but also critically evaluates their impact on society is invaluable. His perspectives help in balancing the excitement around AI with a necessary caution about its potential negative impacts. 3.Advocacy for Transparency and User Empowerment: Lanier advocates for transparency in AI systems and empowering users by making them aware of how their data is used. This is particularly important in an age where issues of privacy and data misuse are prevalent. His views encourage a shift towards more user-centric models in technology, promoting greater trust and accountability. 4. The Future of Work and Society: Lanier’s ideas about compensating individuals for their data contributions tie into larger discussions about the future of work and the economy in the AI age. As automation and AI continue to transform the job market, his proposals offer alternative ways to think about economic participation and the value of human contributions in a digital world. If we do not heed Lanier's insights and warnings, we risk developing and deploying AI technologies without fully considering their ethical implications, societal impacts, and the need for equitable data practices. This could lead to increased issues of privacy infringement, unequal power dynamics in the digital economy, and the perpetuation of systems that prioritize corporate benefits over individual rights and societal welfare. Lanier’s contributions offer a path towards more responsible and beneficial AI development, emphasizing the need for a balance between technological innovation and human-centered values.

The conversation was spread too thin I think. Some depth on specific topics is what I came for.

I wish they had a more refined discussion on the question of open source. the interviewers didn't seem to fully understand the arguments for and against it and didn't ask him to clarify his stance in a meaningful way. eg, the question of what's going on in the "black box" of AI is not the argument for open sourcing it. it's about control over and knowledge of the training data and output. with fully proprietary closed AI models, censorship becomes a much bigger problem.

Great interview, thx for making it👍

This is a hilarious interview. They ask him a question and he just goes off in a completely different direction (over and over again).

Great video! Please more from Jaron Lanier!

This was a great conversation, would have loved to see Jaron on some longer form podcasts. This shouod be watched by more.

Wow. Did not know of him. It has been a long time since I have heard thoughtful, knowledgeable answers.

Thanks for having him on! A true pioneer and voice of reason

Jaron's got the quirkiest mannerisms lol

"We don't want to mess up society. We depend on society for business."

If only the hosts would stop interrupting his answers to their questions, we could learn so much more.

Wow, a MSM interview where the interviewers actually did some research!! Very nice.

His book 'Dawn of the New Everything' is incredible and prescient (published in 2017). He is one who eschews social media but I try to share his work in VR and thoughts on AI and tech whenever I can.

Jaron Lanier is superchill! And the hosts did their homework well.

Well done ,,,needs to be heard . Thanks♾️

Yes! Lanier has it right - Provenance of content - especially photos and audio/video recordings of real events, attested to on a blockchain (or functional equivalent) where anyone can see the original from which content is claimed to be derived AND verify that it matches a hash on the chain along with author info and their attestation of HOW the content was created. The current idea of watermarking AI generated images is obviously doomed to fail from the starting gate, but if something is claimed to be a representation of a real event, we should be able to check that at least the author claims that and takes responsibility for the truth of that statement. And hold any fraudsters who make false claims accountable by penalty of law. For really dangerous information (things authorities will want to keep hidden for example), authors should probably get digitally signed attestations by witnesses of the event represented in their content. Ideally in a way that witnesses can remain anonymous until they are called upon to verify their witnessing in a court.

Bloomberg did amazing with this interview

Most insightful talk I heard for a while.

I like how he says "we" when taking about big tech. It helps remind me of potential bias but also the viewpoint he is coming from.

I thought I wasn't going to like this guy, that he was not what he's being paid to be. But then at the 12 minute mark I realized this guy's a genius! Geniuses really do have weird personalities - it's just a fact.

Jaron's notion that human generated data will continue to be relevant to AI training as AI models progress, presumes that it is not possible to transition to AI self training in some way similar to the step between AlphaGo and Alpha*. That may turn out to be true for some time to come, but the mere existence of organic intelligence suggests that those days are numbered. Once a general AI architecture no longer relies on humans to generate training data, the shift of human workers toward a service economy (even including things like Etsy) will overtake all of us. At that point the only way to keep pace with AI super-intellect will be to hybridize yourself so that you are no longer bound to human intellectual limitations. I think the only way to avert massive levels of poverty and desperation - without essentially eliminating humanity - will be to offer a generous UBI, paid for by the hopefully dramatic increase in productivity that automation brings. This is NOT just another Industrial Revolution. A hundred years ago, vast numbers of blacksmiths retrained as auto mechanics, but that revolution was not about people. It was about physical work. Horsepower. And virtually all the horses very quickly lost their jobs. It's going to be a wild, scary ride. And we're already boarding.

wow, blown away by his intelligence and great questions from the hosts picking up on things said and extrapolating on that.

His point about paying for things is really important!

What a wonderful, knowledgeable and pleasant person. Loved the interview

The privilege that you can create a position for yourself in a company you work and name it in a way that it is funny! Awesome!

I've been following Jaron just to hear his thoughts on social media and AI. He was always spot on and provides great insight into the problems with them.

What a gold nugget this guy is! Reminds me of an old friend of mine.. Anyways, from the get go "Criticism is the true face of optimism" that centence alone has more wisdom in it than like anything I've heard or read this year so far. Thank you Octopusman!

'Either the customer is you, or it's someone who wants to manipulate you.' - YES x 1000

I love this guy. Jaron is very impressive.

I love that Jaron is still involved in a meaningful way in industry. It would be a shame if he were to throw up his hands in despair and leave entirely due to frustration with [insert any typical reason here that creative types leave big companies]. So much better to see someone like this trying to guide things from inside.

Wow... what a great talk. Like I'm glad I watched this.

Thanks for the open and honest expressions.

Great conversation. Thank you for sharing.

at time 17:23 providence is NOT the only way to detect fakes, also common sense, and face checking! (which Jason seems to have little of) but in paintings and other things maybe the hardest and ultimate way to check

Very interesting and thought provoking, thanks!

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🧐 *Jaron Lanier fue pionero en la realidad virtual en los años 80 y ha sido crítico de la industria tecnológica que ayudó a construir.* 01:42 🦑 *Lanier es el "prime unifying scientist" en Microsoft, un título humorístico que combina "octopus" debido a su trabajo diverso.* 03:41 🤳 *Lanier es optimista pero cree que la crítica es esencial para la optimización y se ha mantenido crítico de la industria tecnológica.* 04:18 💬 *Lanier aboga por que los usuarios paguen por la calidad de la IA en lugar de depender de la publicidad que puede manipularlos.* 06:11 📂 *Lanier argumenta que el enfoque de código abierto en IA no conduce a la descentralización, sino a la hipercentralización de empresas.* 08:00 🕵️‍♂️ *La providencia de datos es crucial para combatir deepfakes y el fraude en la IA, permitiendo rastrear la fuente de los datos utilizados en las salidas de la IA.* 11:25 💰 *Lanier propone la idea de "data dignity" donde los usuarios que contribuyen con datos deberían ser compensados por su uso en el entrenamiento de algoritmos.* 16:20 🧙‍♂️ *Lanier menciona que él y sus amigos crearon los primeros deepfakes en los años 90, y aboga por la providencia de datos como solución para enfrentar deepfakes.* 19:09 🤝 *Lanier cree que la relación entre líderes tecnológicos y legisladores puede ser demasiado cercana, lo que podría afectar la regulación necesaria para la industria.* 21:39 💼 *Lanier aboga por un mayor compromiso de las empresas tecnológicas en el diálogo público y considera que más libertad de expresión sería beneficiosa para ellas.* 22:22 🤔 *Lanier no tiene una línea clara de cuando dejaría su participación en la industria tecnológica, ya que considera que depende de las circunstancias y los trade-offs en el momento.

Brillant Interviewers - brilliant interviewee ❤👏🏻

Great Video/ Interview. Jaron is a wise man! 👌🏻

He’s like a real life wizard …

11:35 I agree with that actually, what the AI should be 'doing' IS the referencing. a) for attribution. b) to connect information.

I have *Great Respect* for Jaron Lanier ... As a pioneer of augmented and virtual reality filmmaking, Jaron was the OG.

Excellent talk! Tanks so much!

Really liked the last question.

This dude is quite insightful on a variety of topics

I had dinner with Lanier back in 1986. He was the Godfather of VR. Crazy night.

Jaron has way too much faith in politicians not infringing upon civil liberties. But he is a gem. Always respect his unique perspective and humor.

Excellent discussions

Jaron is a hidden gem 💎

Such a cool guy. We need more !

Sure wish there was an unedited version of this

Love listening to him speak. Fantastic.

Jaron as always on peak form. Love everything this guy says. But I really have to call out the presenters, they couldn't have been better at engaging with him!

2:06 What a great f****** question! Can’t wait to hear his answer! 💪✊🔥

the nicest gentleman in the cybernet

Immortality of monism through the the perspective of computing experts.

I absolutely adore this man.

Well said! ❤

Criticism is the ultimate face of optimism. What a brilliant observation. So true and sadly actively avoided by most due to our modern day sensitivities. Would have liked him to delve more into the mathematical issue with open source creating hypernodes. Not sure i agree.

Excellent - many thanks

Who would have thought you would hear Gang-slang such as 'O.G' on Bloomberg? 😂

I'm trying to understand this idea of open-source, hyper-centralization, and the exchange of information being the monopoly. I think what he is saying is that without monitization and market forces, there is no competition. That's what creates the monopoly. Really that's brilliant.

Its unfortunate to have a brilliant scientist being interviewed and only getting a small snippet of what he’s trying to say, the interviewers are veering back and forth between their pre-prepared questions without engaging the topics that he’s bringing to the table - would love to see the full raw unedited video.

The editing on this is weird. They keep cutting Jaron short. Let the man finish a thought.

Jaron is a one of a kind brilliant human.

You can tell that dude knows that world and knows how to do his job

Brilliant interviewers!