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>use split keyboard for ergonomic reasons >doesn't push them far enough apart to actually have shoulders and elbows relaxed Also, you sit with your desk too high, and you're defaulting to raised wrists, which would work with a high rest, but hovering is definitely putting strain on them.

I've been using only ergo boards for a bit over two years at this point. Most of us that have gotten into ergo boards didn't get into it because we wanted a keyboard that sounded good but we needed some type of change in order to use a keyboard without our hands dying. I use a 36 key split CRKBD layout and am able to type comfortably at about 130wpm throughout the day while working. I feel like harping on the boards feel initially is a little bit out of the spirit of what ergo boards are trying to accomplish. I also totally understand the learning curve that you have to go through in order to use an ergo board efficiently. It doesn't help that you don't touch type with your right hand, so a change in layout would be a lot harder to manage. Gaming is also not the greatest benchmark for using an ergo board. While it's possible, I find it a lot easier to have a separate left-hand gamepad so that I can have all the keys I need for gaming and then being able to go back to the ergo board when I need to type for work and personal stuff. It might have just been me, but I felt that your take on the whole ergo board topic was biased towards sound and switch feel when those aren't even the priority of the boards. I'd love to see you revisit this topic without harping on the boards for feel when that's not the primary goal for the boards.

You ever hear that saying about judging a fish by it's ability to climb a tree? Yeah, that's a little like judging ergonomics by the sound the switches make and their gaming ability. Jumping to ortholinear or column staggered, as others have noted, is a lot to adjust to. It's not like relearning a new layout, but it is a lot. But it's necessary to adjust to if you're going to fairly evaluate the setup. Judging the boards you usually make videos on by the standards of ergonomic factors would result in an equally awful outlook. I mean, who builds a custom keyboard without a thumb cluster, or even a split spacebar?

Watching your hands try to type on these things says a lot about if an ergo board is going to work well or not. You're moving hands all around the keyboards like they have no home-row or resting position. It also seems like you're heavily reliant on your index fingers to push keys that are supposed to be pushed by other fingers. I had a lot of these problems and they're actually why I forced myself to switch. The difficulty of learning meant I would have the chance to correct my typing style at the same time at what was essentially no extra cost. Being able to type fast was not the point of home-row for typing, and being able to type fast using a wonkey method doesn't make that method a good idea for regular use. The point behind split boards is about keeping your shoulders and arms on the same plane, rather than having them tilt inward, and then your wrists tile outward. All of your arms should be following the same through-line the whole way, so even if you position the keyboard halves inward, at least tilt the halves so that your wrists aren't bending. On a similar note, your chair is too low in reference to the desk, your forearms should be roughly parallel with the floor, not inclined upwards. Your chair back is also way too far back and isn't properly supporting you during a lot of the typing footage here. Your hands should float above the keyboard over a centralized home, and your wrists should never be below your hands. Until you fix a bunch of these things no amount of ergo is going to help you because you are cancelling out ever bit of potential good with these things. Its entirely possible that you'd be fine without ergo if you fixed these things. Additionally, changes like ergo aren't going to immediately make you feel better, most of your pain is likely from damage caused by typing the way you have been, and you need to let that damage have time to heal. Ergo helps reduce the injuries' being caused, but itself is not a magical healing technique. In regards to keyboards Max-Ergo but You Essentially Relearn to Type: Dactly Manuform or its more commercial variant: AmHatsu, Kinesis Advantage, Ergo with adjustment time - ZSA Moonlander, Atreus-like boards This barely counts as Ergo - Keychron Q11 So much of the ergo space is DIY stuff right now because companies don't want to make the huge investment into making these boards and hoping that they appeal to enough people. When it comes to a niche sub-community like ergo-mech, maybe you should have asked someone about ergo stuff before you published something like this. I know you said you're not going in as an expert, but you went in so blind that you not only didn't have a good sample of the boards that are out there, but you also failed to utilize the ones you had in front of you in a way that might have actually given you some benefit. That all said... yeah that 2nd board looked pretty trash.

Okay so I have a few keyboard recommendations and also some tips on how to select a good one and actually use one efficiently (both health and work wise). First off you probably don't want to go for a flat keyboard, key layout and split designs are important factors but there's a bit more to it than that. Preferably you want something that inclines slightly upward towards your wrists (negative tilt) so your wrists are positioned slightly higher (elevation-wise) and your fingers are resting naturally on the keyboard, with this you generally want some sort of wrist rest so your wrists will be properly elevated and most ergo keyboards come with them (except for that last expensive one idk what the point of that one was lol). Another factor is tenting, most good ergo boards will be raised in the center so your wrists/hands can be more naturally angled instead of totally flat. Other than that make sure you're sitting properly and your arms/hands aren't in any awkward angles, if you have a split keyboard you have more control/customization on where you want your hands to be (though it will give you significantly less mouse space if they're positioned too far away from each other). For keyboards I use a fairly cheap one that I highly recommend but I'm sure you can afford better. I use a cloud nine ergoTKL which does all the things I listed with the main caveat that you can't replace the switches as they're not hot-swappable. For the really nice expensive ones I recommend either the Kinesis Advantage360 or the ZSA Moonlander, the Moonlander you'll probably prefer as it's the only one hot swappable to my knowledge.

If you ever want to take another look at the first keyboard I would recommend seperating the two halves further apart. The main benifit of thos is the ability to spread them further apart, generaly to where your arms are at shoulder width. It definately does take getting used to, especially with those button clusters next to the thumbs (I've never had one with the thumb cluster).

Keychron has a split board that has a typical layout (staggered keys vs the keys vertically aligned) so it’ll feel much more natural to type on. For me, it’s been a complete game changer for shoulder and wrist pain (also a climber here). It’s plug & play, customization through VIA, so much easier to start using and customize. You can use just one half or the other at a time if you like, so plenty of space for gaming.

Other than the keyboards themselves, I think to get the most out of ergonomic setup , you could also adjust your desk/chair height, arm rest angle/height, monitor height/angle. If mech keybs are a rabbit hole, ergonomic anything is an entirely new rabbit hole just as much, maybe even more...

One of the problems I see is that you don't type correctly on a normal keyboard. That is one of the reasons that you found it so hard to switch to a columnar layout. You should rest your fingers on A, S, D, F, J, K, L, ; . You had your ring on A which is wrong. So you're not just learning the different positions for the keys. You're also learning different letters for different fingers. If you are really interested in reducing arm and wrist pain (and you should be. RSI can be crippling) then you should set up the ergodox with tenting to reduce supination and the correct angle to reduce ulnar deviation. Then switch to a completely different layout that is not QWERTY (something like whorf). That way you can spend some time each day learning that board and the new layout, but then still be able to go back to work using your old keyboard and qwerty. You will be able to keep both layouts in your head. Then when you feel you are up to a decent speed on the new layout and keyboard then switch full time. I switched to an ergo split mech keyboard at the start of working from home in 2020. It has saved my wrist and arms so much pain.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE for the love of your wrists try an ergonomic keyboard that TENTS. Tenting alters your resting wrist position. I highly recommend the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard or UHK, with the wrist rests and thumb cluster addon. I really appreciate the split left and right style because you can pull them farther apart and keep your shoulders wide open and relaxed. Oh, and you should try lowering your desk. It’s too high, so your elbows and forearms can’t get a healthy 90 degree angle.

Based on your hand placement on a normal layout, I think and ergonomic keyboard with staggered columns (like the Ergodox) could work well for you but, you would need to unlearn resting your pinky on shift. That's probably what made your left wrist hurt. On a standard keyboard, your left hand position makes sense because it lets you rest your hand in a more comfortable position. Layouts where the columns are staggered are meant to make it easier to rest your fingers on the homerow while maintaining a similar hand position. But, in your case it meant reaching further than you're used to to rest your pinky on shift.

To get the most out of the Ergodox, you have to use the optional tilt feet and wrist wrests and then play with hand positioning.

I use ergo for work and a normal full size for non work and have been doing this for over 10 years. The main benefit of the ergo are the ones that allow you to tip the keyboard away from you. Microsoft and Logitech are good for this.

I ❤ ergo keyboards, but it takes about two weeks to “get it” with a nice split ergo keyboard. I started with the Microsoft natural ergo board like 15 years ago and loved it. I moved on from there to the Kenisis Advantage 2 and loved that for years. I now go between my Keebio Iris and my Ferris Sweep. I love them both and with a bit of modding the Iris sounds and feels great.

I had the same wrist pain and I went with the Dygma Raise with the Tenting Kit. I think you would really like it and the tenting may end up giving a different type of feel/relief than the models you tried! Good luck!

This video is like reviewing a mug to dig the ground. You're just reviewing a product based on what it's not designed to do.

I mean yeah, if you don’t know how to type properly, you’re gonna have a hard time with any of these keyboards. Watching you use your ring finger for so many keys made me physically ill

I am super excited to see somebody who actually cares about keyboard quality starting to look at ergo boards! There are VERY few places to get a board for someone who cares BOTH about keyboard aesthetics and quality AND about ergonomic posture. However, I think you came to this challenge kind of backwards; the right way to start with ergo boards is to figure out how to hold your hands, then find a board that helps you hold your hand that way; not to get a bunch of random boards with "ergo" stickers on them and just kinda vibe it out. I have many, many thoughts and I hope you find some of these useful - I'd *love* it if these started getting more popular and those of us who need ergo boards got more varied options! You want your hands to be a bit less than shoulder width apart, and for maximum ergonomics points, you want your wrist to be neutral: neither in flexion nor pronation, no scissoring of your radius and ulna. The reason that ergo keyboards are split is to facilitate that posture. The reason that some keyboards are ortholinear are to let your fingers move more naturally, but as you have discovered, learning an ortho layout is painful, and its ergo benefits are considerably more debatable than that of a basic split keyboard. I'd definitely start off with split staggered only, and maybe try out ortholinear layouts if you're *really* in the mood for a challenge, later. Separately. (Note that if you *really* hate yourself, you can get an ortholinear *non*-split keyboard, like the Idobao x YMDK ID75, or the very trendy "Work Louder: Creator Board") I'd recommend checking out the offerings from Keeb dot io (no link because UKposts seems to think all links are spam these days). They sell kits and prebuilts. Personally I'm a fan of low-profile boards, so I recently upgraded from the Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB (MX browns, soldered, boo) to the Keebio Cepstrum (choc v1 low profile, hotswap). This will take up a *very* small amount of space on your desk, if that's your main concern. If you want something in a more traditional form factor, the Mistel Barocco MD770 will give you something that snaps together to form a non-split keyboard so you can try it out a little bit at a time (sorry, no hotswap though). Note that the keebio options kinda *look* like they can fit together like the barocco, but they actually can't. You should also find a model with a tenting kit, so that you can get a sense of how the "right" posture is supposed to be, particularly if your wrists are currently hurting. The kinesis freestyle rgb is not the best quality from a custom-keyboard perspective (it's plastic, it's pingy, it definitively does not thock as shipped), but if you get it with the tenting kit, you'll immediately get an idea of how to set it up with a wrist-rest and how you're supposed to hold your hands, and then you can graduate to some of the more custom options I listed above with your own tenting and wrist rests (or not, depending on what you find comfortable). A lot of this is preference, but alice layouts are kind of a scam. The absolute most important thing for ergonomics is *hand separation*. Putting your hands together to sit at a keyboard physically forces you to hunch forward, so the halves of the keyboard really need to come apart, not just be angled. Position the two halves of the keyboard such that your hands will stay where you are if you fully relax them. If you relax your hands over a standard keyboard, you'll notice that your hands will sort of cross each other as your wrists straighten out. You want your wrists to be totally relaxed when using an ergo board. Finally, although ergo keyboards can help, if your wrists *already hurt*, you need to take a break from typing for a while, or at least drastically cut back; the repetitive motion of pressing keys is not good for you regardless of how good your posture is, and once there's an injury you need to let it heal and stop poking at it. The thing that a good ergo setup does is mostly make it so that your wrists won't start hurting *again* once you've recovered.

It's interesting to see that you're maintaining rowstag (row stagger) hand positioning with the "ergo" boards. With Colstag (column stagger, keys are vertically aligned), the major theory is that you do not need to move your fingers side to side and they mostly need to move straight up and down only (Pinky and index do, but the rest don't), reducing stress on the finger joints. Next major thing is your wrists. In a lot of your clips, you're heavily angling your wrists to get into position. For the unibody boards (single piece ones), you should be moving the board closer or further from you until your hands are straight with your arms. For split boards, you move the halves such that each arm can be straight from your body, and again straight wrists. (Pro tip, mouse can go in the middle, or you can move the right half out of the way). I considered split ergonomics for myself just for fun, since i came to the realisation that the way i position my hands more or less gave me Colstag movement. The majority of ergo boards tend to be soldered sandwich kits as well. I think that's a bit different to your normal content, but if you're interested in trying ergos...

I switched to my Lily58 pretty decently. Was a slight struggle for less than a month, but after that I was good. I can also use normal keyboards perfectly fine when needed. I also started using workman layout before that and took me only a month or two to be basically the same. Was def a struggle at first but maybe almost a year or so later I type at almost double my old qwerty speed. Not a normal result, but I suppose I got to relearn typing better.

I would love to see what you would do with a Keebio Iris. Loving mine for a while now. It can take some time to get used to, but customizability is what makes ergo boards work IMO. You can make the layouts and shortcuts YOU need. More buttons = more reach, so layers are better than a bigger board and QMK/VIA work great. The Iris has been hotswap since Rev6. For a small company, having videos and clear, thorough documentation for everything is great. They were super nice for any questions, too.

I got a second hand Moonlander and it was still expensive. It took me several days to be semi decent at it. 8 months later I love it and am as uncomfortable on a regular keyboard now as I was on the Moonlander. A big positive for the split keyboard is to have my halves spread shoulder length apart, really helped with back and shoulder pain.

keebio has a lot of great entry boards with familiar layouts like the sinc or the kbo-5000. Forget the weird key staggering on a lot of these ergonomic boards. Even just straightening out your wrist posture can do wonders. The advantage of split boards is that you can position each half to match your natural wrist angle and shoulder width. If you pay attention to how your wrists/arms are when you're typing on a straight board, you'll see that you're wrists are (probably) always bent and your arms are tucked in towards the center to compensate. Keeping your wrists and arms straight is the key here and your tendons will thank you over time. You can take it even further by tenting if you really need it, but for me just the positioning change was a game changer.

Hello I'm one of those ergo people. I've used exclusively ergo boards for about a year and a half, corne 36 key. - I think you went into this with the wrong goal. If you have any pains you need to understand where they are coming from before you start trying to fix them. The ergo section on the reddit mech keyboard discord has a ton of resources that can help you. - Any extended use on a new layout is going to hurt a bit at first just because you are doing a bunch of new finger movements. - As im sure many others have said 1 day is not enough time to learn a new layout. - You only used full sized key caps and switches. Something a little closer to a laptop key might be better for you since there is less finger travel on each press. Now the real question is can you make good content with that? That might be tricky. You definitely were on to something with the lack of build quality on a lot of ergos. The mass produced office worker ones are pretty bad. While the more common hobbiest ones are of the exposed pcb and acrilic sandwitch variety. A lot of ergos definitely go for the function over form. Might be worth checking out Ben Vallack's videos a pretty stunning ergo keyboard.

I recommend learning how to home row type before transitioning to an ergo or split board. This took me personally about two weeks to learn on a regularly staggered keyboard with another two weeks to be at ~70WPM on my Idobao ID75. Ergo isn't for everyone (I use a Raindrop 60% daily) but learning that first step is crucial to transition to an ergo board, especially with a columnar layout. I think the consensus here is this is a bad take and warrants a follow up. Love you Hipyo, keep making great content for this community!!

The most common keyboards we recommended to clients were the Kinesis Freestyle 2, and the Goldtouch V2. In terms of ergonomics they are good tools for the job. In terms of premium feel, they're pretty standard but nothing special. *Also if you're having trouble you should really consider having an ergo assessment done. It looks like your desk might be a bit high relative to your chair but someone taking the time to go through this and the other contributing factors with you is a great investment in your health.

To answer your question: I think when you’re a software developer in your early 30s and have a joint disorder you kind of have no choice other than becoming an “ergonomics person”. For some people it’s going to be worth the retraining but one might argue maybe we should just design keyboards with ergonomics in mind so when kids use them for the first time it’ll just be training and not retraining 😅 Have you ever tried the glove80? I’m curious how it would be because it looks hard to get used to but also might be a grail keyboard ⌨️

Tbh the biggest barrier to entry for most people, not just Keyboard enthusiasts, is learning proper touch typing techniques. Ergo boards are made for standard touch typing, so if you search and peck or you use a personal version of touch typing, you’ll struggle. I used to type with angle mod, using ring finger with P, and with my left hand. And even just by swapping to 40% I had to fix my technique. And as for Ergo boards: I haven’t used it yet but the Corne and Dactyl seem like EKB community favorites, but they are all very extreme changes for your everyday person. For a person new to ergo boards, the Ultimate Hacker Keyboard (UHK) and Dygma Raise look like solid choices since those two are essentially just normal keyboards cut in half, with the Raise even being able to come back together if I recall. Also, something else of note: Keyboard sound is still sort of important in the Ergo community, but the thing far more focused on is layout. Traditional boards are separated by feel and sound. On the other hand, Ergo boards like to change and experiment with where keys are placed, how they’re placed, and sometimes even how they work.

First of all I want to congratulate you on even attempting an ergonomic keyboard. Many people find it far too intimidating. It took me about two solid months to switch to an ergonomic keyboard. I needed to do this because I broke my wrist and couldn’t type for long periods of time with my right hand anymore. I started with the Ergodox EZ. One of the features of that keyboard is that you can tent it. I forget exactly which deviation this fixes, it might be ulnar deviation. I ended up going very extreme with the tenting and type at about an 80% tent. I now use a Moonlander in addition to the Ergodox. One other mistake I made is I should have learned the Colemak layout from the get-go rather than just switching to an economic keyboard in continuing to QWERTY. I’m certainly not an expert but let me know if you have any questions particularly regarding the first ergo keyboard.

How's the flex on that AFA? It looks insane. Alice boards definitely have that awkward typing phase at first but I can't live without mine. The aesthetic and comfort are too 🔥

Even if they look weird I think they're worth buying.

I'm really vibing with my V10. From regular 75% to alice was a couple days of adjustment to be comfortable with and a couple weeks to be back to full speed (it's not _that_ much different after all). Now I'm really liking it, it's forcing me to not type stupid, and the little inward angle is pleasant. This was a impulse purchase, and I came to it with no expectations, but I'm gonna have to say I slightly prefer this layout over regular 75%.

ergonomic keyboards and other accessibility input devices are game changers (and in fact make using computers or playing games possible at all for a lot of people. the fact that default keyboard layouts have so many ergonomic and accessibility problems does mean that there is unfortunately some learning associated. for anyone interested in improving their RSI or finding a more accessible input option, do some research and pick a layout you are interested in learning, get switches you will like, and expect learning to take time.

Maybe give the Keebio Splits a try. I built a KBO-5000, and it's a pretty good one (granted, I'm biased as it was my first I ever built). EDIT: For me, an ergo keyboard is a must. So much of my time is typing for work, and when I completed my home office, I wanted a proper setup. A big thing with ergo keyboards, especially ones that allow reprogramming, is to come up with a setup that works for you. For me, I have a layer setup that maps AWSD to the arrow keys and JIKL to mouse movements. This lets me keep my hands on the keyboard for most of the time, and greatly improves my performance on ACTUAL work (results for typing tests will obviously not appear, since the shortcuts are useless for them).

I've been using the Feker Alice 80 for the better part of this year. It's my first Alice board, but it's been really solid, and is considerably more affordable than the boards in this video. Would recommend!

I switched to a split ergo about 3 months ago and I ended up designing, printing, and hand wiring my own for $65. I've got a bad shoulder, so I need my hands spread farther apart then a standard keyboard allows. I also love that I can move the right half off to the side to make more room for the mouse. QMK also gives me a lot of flexibility for game specific layouts. When it comes to "preference" Ergo keyboards are just custom keyboards with even more options. I'd suggest trying the ergo dox one more time, but slide the two halves to the far corners of your mouse mat. From there just do a typing test, and slowly adjust. it should take about 10-15 typing tests to find a comfortable spot for you. last thing, I prefer to have backspace and shift on my left thumb and Space and Enter on my right thumb.

I recently switched to the Keychron Q11. I loved that while I adjusted, i had the option to fit the sides back together if i needed to got back to a default set up. I love a split space bar (for sound purposes) and being able to angle my wrists in a more comfortable manner has been wonderful.

I'm not as in depth as the other folks here in their descriptions, but I did wanna say I don't think 3 days is enough time to get used to a ergo keyboard, considering you've practiced typing on a normal keyboard your entire life.

If you struggle to type on an alice layout like I first did, you have bad typing habits built up and never learned how to traditionally touch type using the home row.

For me the split layouts help with my shoulders, I'm a penetration tester so I use command line interfaces for the majority of my day leading to typing alot and mousing not a ton, but my shoulders were hunching because my hands were too close. I intially tried the moonlander which is split in two parts like the first one and that helped a TON but then I switched to the feker Alice 80 which is like the last one, the angle you keep your arms at for the Alice also helps me keep a neutral shoulder position.

I have been mainly using my dactyl-manuform mini for about a year now and I dont think I could ever go back to a regular keyboard. The split and ergonomic layout has significantly reduced the strain I feel in my wrists and forearm throughout the day. I have even switched over at work with a keebio IRIS and it has helped greatly.

Did you try playing with the ergodox keymap before nixing it? That's a big part of figuring it out.

I'm very happy with my Mistel Barocco as my travel keyboard. The biggest upside is that when I use it with my laptop I can lay it behind the screen, which is a HUGE improvement in hand posture compared to normal laptop keyboard sadness.

While they may not be for everybody, after being in the keyboard hobby for damn near a decade and developing wrist pain, I finally decided to try out an ergonomic board. I gave the Fekker Alice 98 board a try (I have to have that number pad) thinking it may not be for me but giving it a fair shot. For me, this is the way, it took a few days to get going, and maybe a week to really get back in the typing grove but man, there is no going back for me. I tried going back to my standard keychron for a day and it was so awkward.

I switched to an ergodox layout almost a decade ago and very much like it, but the retraining period was a solid 4-6 weeks to get back up above 100wpm - as you discovered it is in no way intuitive, but that's going to be true for anything that fights your learned muscle memory. After training was done I can switch between standard layout and ergodox with no issue, but during training switching will really mess you up on both. But being able to keep the halves at shoulder-width separation really does help over time, and with tenting you can adjust positioning to exactly fit your posture. But if you're not really willing to do that retraining, a Kinesis Gaming Edge will get you like 80% of the benefits with a much more "normal" layout.

As someone using ergo keyboards for over 3 years i got to say that it definitely has some learning curve. I think it would be best to try a split keyboard with wristrest that has the standard qwerty layout(no staggered or ortho). Recommend to keep the split keyboard shoulder width apart. Im using UHK v2. It would also be easier if you learned to touch type

I tried ergo keyboards for pain, but at the end of the day transitioning to a trackball is what helped me the most. Keeping a mouse around for gaming isn’t too difficult, and learning the trackball took a bit of time. But now I wouldn’t go back.

id say the best solution is building something like a corne or a lily58 and 3d printing your own case with tenting for a true ergonomic experience that also looks really cool. The prebuilts just arent there yet in terms of quality imo, unless you order a build service for one of the boards i mentioned. Also, building something yourself is an amazing experience where you can truly customize to your specific liking. Split keyboards are still pretty niche, but the scene has progressed really nicely the past couple of years with typeractive, boardsource, splitkb and many others offering great easy affordable solutions and some of them even have build services, or offer nosolder kits for easy assembling.

The keyboard halfs are made so you can tilt them for each of your hands to the most natural feeling positions, the main thing with these is to bend your elbows more outwards to rest more so your hand matches the turn of the keys.

Got the Vulkan Maja V2 when it was in group buy, and it's been wonderful so far. I don't know what it is about ergos, but the sound is usually pretty flat. The Maja really slaps though. As for typing, there's a huge warming up period. My typing speed suffered for the first month of use, but once you get used to it, it feels so much more natural than a standard layout. It's a subconscious change that occurs over time. It's like ASMR - if you're consciously trying to analyze what makes the keyboard special, you'll miss it entirely. But if you let it fade into the background, a sense of comfort and ease comes to you over time. My shoulders have much less tension as a result of one year of use.

Try the Kinesis Gaming Freestyle Edge keyboard. It's a mechanical keyboard with the standard layout but split, which is really easy to adapt to from a "regular" keyboard (IMHO). It puts my wrists in a more natural position, but doesn't have much a learning curve. I would suggest also adding the optional lift kit for it so you can tent the keyboard.

"I've been doing this for 3 days now" You're literally re-learning to ride a bike ... this needs more time. It took me over a month to start being productive with my Kinesis and almost half a year to become fully comfortable with it.

I dare you to use 40% boards.

I've been using an ergo keyboard (Kinesis Advantage 2, $300), and it's been the best thing to happen to my wrists. I would LOVE for you to use this keyboard and then find a way to make it sound good. It does not have hot swappable switches at all. The PCB is flexible because of the key wells. It's... not for the aesthetics or the sound. It's ugly... loud, but it feels the best out of all the other keyboards I've tried. The other split ortho keyboards are better because you can place the splits apart. The kinesis advantage 360 is a bit better... but more expensive. There's a few companies out there that are also reselling modified versions of these with different switch options other than cherry red/brown. The keycaps on these things are using a different profile. The mount to the cherry stems just fine, but their profiles are different due to the shape of the keywells. Again, I would LOVE for you to try the ergodox style keyboards but custom ones made with dactyl or just the kinesis advantage boards... all of these are upwards of $400-500. But it's been some of the best $$ I've spent on peripherals.

Ergo keyboards are unlikely to solve tennis/golf elbow issues, for anyone watching and wondering. If you have rheumatoid arthritis, or know specifically the issue is caused by forearm pronation or wrist hypertension, then an ergo board might help. Elbow and forearm issues caused by tennis elbow must be addressed by PT.

The Alice80 is my daily for work from home and it is great with a few mods. Tented Alice layout is still my go to for ergonomics... After my wrist injury, it was the only keyboard I had that didn't hurt to type on since it didn't force my wrists to turn.

It doesnt make sense to swap the keyboard every day. Took me multiple weeks to get comfortable at it

I use a Dygma Raise with a tenting kit but my wife tried the Ergo Dox and hated it. What I found is that you have to find what fits your personal needs and tastes and just because it's an ergo board doesn't mean it will automatically work for you. In my case I really love an elevated angle for the keyboards and also it took me a couple of weeks to really break through the learning curve. My wife, on the other hand, tried to do too much at once with hers by changing the layout, learning a split design, fixing the angles, etc and she ended up just going with a Keychron K2 in the end. I still use my Dygma Raise and I now hate using any other keyboard so I think a single days use will just not do it for you but you also need to determine what you need to look into

If it hasnt been mentioned, Dygma Raise has a split 60% layout which is really the only keyboard that I use for gaming now. I lover ergonomic mostly because I feel so squished when I use the normal layouts unless the board is farther away. It does take some time, but once you know touch typing, it all becomes much easier

Ironic how you are doing the same thing here as that journalist in the "Journalists Don't Understand Custom Keyboards..." video

I had my hands hurt as well when using mechanical keyboards. I reluctantly switched to a logitech k380 (low profile membrane) and that worked well for me. After a few months of ny hands being pain free, I tried switching back to mechanical keyboards and the pain came back. So I'll probably be sticking to low profile more.

I use a ZSA Moonlander, still keeping my Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 keyboard and here's how I learned to use it. When you order a moonlander and it ships, it says it'll give you a free typing game if you reply on why you wanted the keyboard in the first place, and I did just that and got the code to play Epistory, it was a blast and how i simply learned to type on the main letters. And if not, it has a training program there so you can learn how to use the Moonlander. Even ZSA (the same guys who made the Ergodox, now selling the EZ version) knows how how bizarre thier keyboards are, so kudos for that. P.S. I already see the glaring issue when you try the keyboards, is at least one of them has a wrist rest, none of them are tented (supposedly 45 to 60 degrees) and those things are pretty important for ergonomic split keyboards to prevent wrist pain.

As someone who has been using ergo keyboards for a while, here is my take: (for reference: I am using a zsh moonlander, which is an improved version of the ergo-docs, the use of which was recommended to me by my doctor because of my RSI) First of all, learning indeed takes time, and, at first, they will feel worse. This is because, when you're not familiar with a layout, your hands tense up more, which is the opposite of what you want. The entire point of these keyboards is to minimise strain. For me, it took roughly a month of continuous use to get get to a point I was noticing the benefits over my previous keyboard. I was in uni at the point, but most people I know who switched did so during a quiet summer month at work. They are also no use without a good posture. The split nature allows you to sit in a more ergonomic way (arms down, making a straight bend at your elbows, with your hands at the same width as your shoulders. while sitting up straight,) but do not provide that posture on their own. On a similar note, you should place the mouse in between the boards, not to the side of it. Then, imo more importantly: the target audience. Most if not all people I know who use the more extreme ergonomic keyboards (like, a dozen) are all software developers, usually the type that also use Emacs/nvim (which includes myself.) I have heard that some people who write large amounts of text also use them, and I appreciated my board while working on my thesis, but that's not what most people use it for. I think this is largely because the ergo keyboards do not make a lot of sense if you switch to your mouse all the time anyway. To feel the advantage, you should really use keyboard shortcuts for everything and generally keep your hands at the home row at all times. That is at least what they are optimised for. Gaming is possible, but most people have separate layers on their keyboard for it, or even use their old non ergo keyboards. The less different ergo boards (like the Logitech ERGO K860), are found more frequently in offices of general work, and are better suited for people not willing to make a big switch, but those are all membrane boards, as far as I know. As for what keyboards I would recommend: If you got recently diagnosed with RSI or a similar, I have heard good things about the Logitech ERGO K860. It is not an enthusiast board, but it takes around a week to get used to, and you will quickly start to feel the pain in your wrists get better. However, note that they won't accomplish anything without a good ergonomic posture, and it would be advised to get your boss to pay for a doctor that specialises in ergonomic working. For the more extreme ergo boards, or generally if you want to play around on your own without the urgency of a medical problem, my favourites are the moonlander and the knesis advantage 360. They do not sound or feel as good as enthusiast keyboards (tough I have seen people mod them quite well with foam and different switches and all that,) but the ergonomics of them are great. The one thing I will say is that they are only as valuable as the time you put in. If you simply use a qwerty layout with numbers on top, modifiers to the side, the difference is not that large, only really helping your posture. However, if you do more extreme things. (for example, I use home-row mods, which is to say that a long press of a, s, d, and f or ;, l, k, and j, result in super, alt, shift and control respectively. This massively reduced the strain on my pinky from pressing control and shift. Moreover, my numbers are a numpad underneath u,i,o,j,k,l,m,,,., to be accessed with a modifier, which makes me reach less for the top of the keyboard, and allows the hands to keep a more natural position.) The better you want it to be, the more you have to change from what is familiar, the more time you need to spend learning it. Other boards for this I have heard good things about are the kyria, Iris, Chocofi, Piantor, and glove80. All of these are going to be hard to get into. So, in short, hypyo, I get why you don't like them, you are not the target audience in more ways than one. They are not meant to sound good, and they are not meant to be easy to learn. I feel like you evaluated a fish on its ability to climb a tree. On a different note, something that I would be interested in, is seeing you mod one of these keyboards to make it sound good (probably the moonlander, as that is the only common hot-swap one.) tough zsh do not care about sound (literally saying that on their website,) that does not mean no users do. For the users of these keyboards, it is an interesting tutorial, whereas for the majority that does not use them can see how a board that is good, but simply not optimised for sound, can be made to sound better, with I'm pretty sure a big difference before and after, knowing what others have achieved.

I have an AFA R2 form Angry Maio and I will say its phenomenal. It is very raised in the front but to be fair it comes with really nice magnetic hover wrist rests that line up perfectly with the height of the board. That being said, very expensive so not accessible for majority of people which is unfortunate since its the only ergo ive really connected with myself.

So the two big reasons I have seen people talk about ergo boards are Ulnar Deviation and Pronation of the Radius and Ulna. Ulnar Deviation occours in your wrists when your wrists are bent outwards toward your pinky fingers. When resting on a regular keyboard with a straight layout, we tend to bring our forearms toward the center of our body, then bend our wrists outward toward our pinkies to get our fingers to lay straight on the home row position. This can cause long term Repetitive Stress Injuries (RSI) in our wrists. This is why ergo keyboards tend to have a less standard key layout, more angled so our wrist lies at a more natural position. Pronation of the Radius and Ulna (the two big bones in our forearm) occurs when those bones cross over each other. With your arm straight out in front of you and your palm to the sky, those two bones are parallel to each other. Turn your hand inwards so your palm is facing the ground, and those bones cross over each other. This can also cause an RSI. Ergo boards seek to raise the profile of each side of they keys so you don't twist your wrists as far to type, allowing the Radius and Ulna to not cross over each other as hard. The problem with the "ergonomics" industry is it is never a one size fits all. Chairs, keyboards, mice, any of them. Each keyboard may be perfect for one person but suck or cause more damage than a regular keyboard would for the next person. Definitely understand why you are having wrist pain in the first place with a doctor before trying to actually fix the issue (I get this video is entertaining in nature, you said it yourself you weren't really giving them a fair shake as it usually takes months to get used to an ergo board).

Did you put Ctrl, Alt, and Shift on your home row when testing the Ergo Dox? Did you work with Custom defined layers? For me, that's what made ergonomic keyboards being a game changer for me. Sure, on the first day I was down to 9wpm, but now I am back to 60-70 wpm. The homerow modifiers though. (chefs' kiss). Also with custom layers I could move opening brackets ( ) to jkl-, I moved the num pad under my right hand ( 123 = m,. 456 = jkl 789 = uio ), and organized F1 - F9 in the same way. Of the keyboards you tested, the ErgoDox is probably the best. You should put the 2 parts really far apart. Like at least at the distance of your shoulders. Then put your mouse in the middle. Once you started it will still take at least a week until you feel really comfortable with the new keyboard layout, but I found it to be worth the investment. I type much more comfortably today, I have full control over my keyboard layout (which means I can change aspects of it at any time I see fit) and I even managed to actually learn how to touch type (which I had huge problems with before). I use the piantor keyboard, though. It's an even smaller keyboard than the ErgoDox with only 42 keys.

I switched to a Keycron Q10 at home and a Feker Alice for the office. It has helped so much compared to using 75% and 1800 boards before.

I got a keychron v10 and it’s great because it’s the only « cheap »custom ergo keyboard with a azerty iso fr layout and that’s nice ! Honestly the transition to an alice layout was very natural and i got less pain when typing with it which is AMAZING. BUUUT I STILL GOT A PAIN. I also type faster and that’s cool i think I’m gonna change my switches because i think 4mm is too much total travel for linear switches

I know someone who just recently switched to an ortholinear ergo keyboard. It started much the same way for him, he went from 110wpm to 20wpm. It didn't take him long to get back up to speed though, three hours of typing tests and he'd broken 100wpm with 100% accuracy. Ergonomics isn't an instant change. It's something you have to let your body get used to, and there can be pains associated with it. This is something that can take weeks to months to do. Days, or even one week, isn't enough. I went through similar with my back, forcing myself to sit properly instead of slouching all the time. It wasn't great for a while, but after my body got used to it, I'll never go back.

Hi Hipyo! I think one of the best things you can do to meake a keyboard more ergonomic is adding modifiers to the homerow, you can use any keyboard that supporst QMK, some other comments are recommending keychron Q10, that one should work great

That ergodox looks like a great option for gaming, ngl... So many buttons for your thumb and you can shove that second part wherever you want, you're not going to use it anyway

Hipyo, the ergo mech boards are amazing. I started with a Lily 58, upgraded to a ZSA moonlander, and just this week I upgraded again to a Dygma Defy (wireless FTW). As long as you're a decent touch typist you can get the hang of things and with the layers I already have my numpad under my right hand with a simple thumb press. I will gladly admit though that they have a bit of a learning curve.

I use a zsa moonlander ergo split keyboard and I love it! I am a bigger guy so for me to use a normal keyboard I have to turn my wrist in an angle that is a bit uncomfortable. When I have the moonlander I can have each piece in whatever angle I need to make it more comfortable for my wrists.

Im using the keychron Q11 for 2 weeks now and I can say that I needed to learn from new on how to type. I went from 94wpm to like 20-30 but I’m still learning at this time. I feel more confident to type without looking at the keeb tho ^^“

I'm personally using the Keychron Q10 which has an arisu layout. I used to sometimes get cramps in my left forarm which went away immediately when I made the switch. I got used to layout within a few minutes pretty much. With a few mods it sounds great as well. I would definitely recommend this keyboard!

I honestly really like ergo keyboards and the one I got was the Fecker Alice 80 was way cheaper than any of the other ergo keyboards out there at about 120 bucks and is full of stuff that help make it a good sounding keyboard(besides the glourios panda's that I threw in there. I had to really switch up my tyign style from using my main two fingers to using all my fingers , but I totally get why people don't usually like them but I'm used to using them because my mom uses the 50 dollar ergo keyboard for work and I got to use them every now again so it was easier for me to get used to the typing style but I was able to get way better at typing fast from a usual 60-70wpm to 90-100wpm

It might honestly take some years to truly have a very decent, ergonomically-tested mech version. The likes of Logitech ERGO K860 or even the cheapest and surprisingly good one, Delux GM902 are really just hard to beat for their intended ergonomic comfort (the natural curved layout had always been the challenge with the fixated sizes of the keycaps that hurdles that relaxed state of typing).

Here's the way I approach using a keyboard. Sit in your chair and a normal, relaxed position. Choose the position that you would find yourself in normally during a long day of working. Close your eyes. Extend your arms towards your desk where your keyboard sets keep your elbows in the 90° relaxed position that is recommended for ergonomic reasons. Hold your wrists and fingers in their natural, relaxed position. Then, open your eyes and look at where your hands are. Find a keyboard that sits where your hands are. Also, take your current keyboard and put your hands on the home keys rest them there then have someone pull the keyboard out from under your fingers and just look at the way your wrists are positioned in relation to your elbows and what angle you're having to turn everything in order to reach those keys. You want your elbows at 90° to your biceps. You want your wrists directly in front of your elbows. And you want your fingers to be naturally in line with your wrists. I started my career as a computer programmer at a large financial institution. I was banging out code for 8 hours a day. My wrists were killing me using your standard computer keyboard. So I started looking into ergonomics to see if improving my posture or positioning would help. That brought me down the rabbit hole of ergonomic keyboards. One of the keys you have to keep in mind is different body styles need different keyboards. Someone with a small frame maybe able to use your standard keyboard without too much issue. Someone like me who has very broad shoulders, trying to cram my hands and wrists onto a standard keyboard requires some extremely painful bends. Switching to an ergonomic design was the most natural thing in the world to me. It provided immediate relief and I have never been able to go back with a non -split design. When I say split, I mean the keys are split not necessarily the entire keyboard. The only thing that was difficult for me were the couple of keys that I was using the wrong finger to hit. My keyboard of choice is the Microsoft natural. It's what I've used for 23 years now or so. I'm not sure what I'm going to do when the ones that I have now die.

I moved to Alice last year and haven't found anything better for me. The Keychron Q1 ALICE is amazing, and its helped my RSI so much more than any of the ortho linear ones did. Between the better position vs staggered and retraining to use the second space bar as a backspace, Im much faster now and less in pain

Echoing a lot of other comments here: I've been using a Moonlander keyboard for a couple years at this point and it's been life-changing. I think the biggest thing that helped me out was tilting the halves up as far as they can go (and then later getting 3d-printed bases that tilted them farther), so that i didn't have to flatten my wrists out to reach the keyboard. It's the same principle as a vertical mouse, something i personally swear by.

For the issue with your right hand hurting from bumping into the sharp edge of the keyboard while using a mouse, try wearing an oven mitten on your right hand; it'll soften the blow considerably.

Keychron Q10 Alice has been great for me! Love typing on it, although took a week or two to really get the feel for it.

I use a lily 58 with silent switches for note taking. Usually I use a Skyloong gk75 with optical silver for gaming/excel work, but for purely typing out notes I can use a better finger alignment with the ortholinear layout

I personally use a DYGMA RAISE mechanical split ergo with Gateron Yellow Pro 2.0's and MT3 Susuwatari keycaps. It comes with a number of other switches, plus wrist pads and tenting kits to tilt the boards as well. I love it and its made typing nearly effortless for me now. One thing a lot of these ergo keyboards do is split the space bar into thumb keys so u can do a lot more with your thumbs than just press space. The Raise splits it into 8 and when u've set it up your hands almost never have to stretch for any keys or have to stray far from the home row position. I have enter, space, backspace delete and keys for switching layers all within thumbs reach now. It's not cheap but its very customizable. They have the Dygma Defy wireless as well but that is in the same columnar/ortho format u had problems with . So there's a steep learning curve.Take a look.

I use the keebio iris with a tented setup, Hipyo should give it a try. It is a split ortholinear though, so it might take a bit longer of getting used to. Because it's tented so your wrist is not forced into a horizontal plane, and more to a slightly more angled feel.

I usually really like your vids and I still found the jokes funny, but the hard content part of this was hard to watch. Poorly researched hot takes on a topic that deserves better attention (health).

I've been using an Akko alice-style board for at least a year. It does feel more comfortable but the biggest problem that i've not seen anyone talk about with alice-style is the fact that if you use a lot of "cntrl+" short cuts, extending the palm and twisting the wrist in order to simultaneously press cntrl plus an X or a V etc, is actually way more uncomfortable than a standard layout.

I'm not a traditionally "ergonomic person", but I have put a lot of thought and work in making my own setup as comfortable as possible for me. While typing, I slightly twist my wrists outwards, by about 10-15°. I use a wrist-rest and as my desk is too high, also angle my standard but moderately sculpted keyboard (New Model M, click galore). While keeping my elbows right next to my sides, this reduces the twisting and bending induced strain on my wrists. I have not felt pain in my wrists since, but when I did I stopped using my computer actively for a while to let it recover first.

Ergonomic keyboards make sense when your writs/hand starts to hurt or go numb. I've been a moonlander user for about 2 years now and my wrist/hand pain went away a few months into using one. That being said, if you're going to something that moves away from the staggered format you're going to have a big learning curve; think it was about a month of practice before I felt even reasonably proficient. The level of customization offered by the moonlander at least is fantastic, layers, multifunction keys. Initially it feels clunky and yeah your hand gets sore, all the reaches are different than what you are accustomed to. This goes away after a couple weeks of use or at least it did for me.

I been using moonlander for a couple of years now but it took a bit to get use too

The idea behind the ergodox is to have your hands wider apart. I think that ergodox fits better going from ortho to ergo rather than column stagger. The miao board seems too high to be that comfortable. Although alice isnt ergo

I've tried an alice layout keyboard, it was nice over all, but if you use low DPI, you may want to consider a split layout since i did notice ot sometimes being in the way as someone who uses 800 DPI. I decided to get a Keychron Q11 split layout, and it's much better for me, it isn't as ergonomic, but i don't put as much stress on my arms and i can just move away the second half of the keyboard when playing more competitive stuff like Counter Strike and similar.

I never was ergonomic person, but then i bought dygma raise (non-ortholinear) and the split fact itself was enough for my shoulder and back pain to go away in a week. I was surprised. Never going back to non-split keyboards.

Hey, I'm a Corne split keyboard user, and I like it a lot XD I have to say, learning how to use alice or split keyboard is a bit pianful, but I like them more after getting used to them. Personally think if you want to use split, you can tried a HHKB or any 60% to get used to less keys first, then an Alice for devide two hands, finally a split. And I think a 42 keys split (or more) will be a bit easier to start with. Not sure if this would work but this is how I get into a split keyboard.

You'll probably hate it, but... checking out one of the minimalist ergo keyboards may be worth it. You could build a corne, a cantor, a ferris sweep, and put normal switches on them so you still get at least a good sound/feel. But they will absolutely take time to get used to.

Split just keeps your arms more slightly more straight forward rather than inward, alice/arisu helps straighten the wrist, tented helps relax the wrist from rotating. I used a gold touch for 10 years before I entered the mk hobby last year, so I can tell these things do worked for me, but its generally to prevent discomfort/strain rather than treat it if you already have discomfort.

use a wooden wrist rest for your current keyboard. I’m an office worker and constantly rest my wrists on the wrist rest, even when I’m typing. It’s taken away the tendonitis in my elbows, using a wrist rest.

Hipyo may be dressed as a doctor but he ain't no scrub when it comes to keyboards.

I've just switched from my trusted old Leopold FC660M to a Keychron Q11 and I think that's the most sane switch one could do. It get's even better after a few days. And also kudos to Keychron, the Q11 with the Gateron Reds sounds phenomenal!