"max you have a 5 second penalty" Max: "send them my regards" *Wins by 20 seconds*

Bring back the drive through penalty and all this nonsense will stop

Adding insult to injury, Magnussen's 20s penalty didn't actually move him behind all the cars that were within 20s of him because they were lapped and he wasn't, so he was able to complete the final lap and the added time to his race did almost nothing to change his finishing position.

Formula One: the world's only race series where there is more to talk about regarding ANYTHING other than racing.

I think when it comes to illegal overtakes, the first call from the steward should be “give the position back by the end of the lap” and no penalty, that way we continue to get good racing. But if they don’t comply then they get a drive through penalty, that would certainly guarantee drivers and teams don’t try and take tactical penalties

Back in the day when the minimum penalty is about 10-25 seconds, drivers and fans complained the penalties are too severe and artificial. How the tables have turned

Another brilliant issue with the time penalties added after the race is that they become meaningless if you are the last car on your lap. With all the +20 seconds and a train of cars behind him, KMag lost only one position, because only Albon was not lapped by Max. Ocon in 13th was only 8 seconds behind KMag and should be ahead of him in standings, but the checkered flag for Max stopped his race one lap earlier than KMag and Danish man kept his place in front. If Albon would have been overtaken by Max as well, then those 20 seconds would become completely meaningless. Yes, it is a very situational advantage that might not happen very often, but there are some scenarios, when drivers are better off by committing multiple offences, accumulating insane amount of penalty seconds, but being the last car not lapped, would virtually clear then of any penalty at all.

@The Race - Are we not even going to talk about how Magnusen had 20s of penalties but STILL finished in front of all of those cars because he wasn't lapped?

First penalty 10s 2nd penalty drive through in the pits. Also the officials need to be faster at telling drivers to give places back. They are way to slow.

What HAAS did was genius. These tracks need more space to overtake safely.

This is why I like MotoGP long lap or DTM Penalty box, they're an instant(ish) way to make the penalty stand, which for the most part helps readress whatever was the issue. Drive throughs also are pretty much instant but besides putting a driver onto a wall they're too harsh.

Teams will self-police far more if "give the position back" is the default penalty for overtaking off track. Rulings from the stewards aren't immediate. If the car to be penalized is faster, they grow a gap and this penalty becomes more harsh the longer they wait. This incentivizes giving the position back as soon as possible without a steward ruling, something the teams can & will do.

They should do what MotoGP does, the long lap penalty.....that would change their tune...

Simple you must give the place back within 2 corners or the next straight if you don't you will get a 5 second stop and go which must be served at the next possible opportunity (as soon as you get to pit entrance)

And I was sitting here thinking it was about the DRS enable after the first lap... lol

Imagine getting a penalty in football, but waiting until 90th minute before your opponent can take the PK

Either use the drive thru penalty box method (must drive off the line and under a certain speed in a certain area on next lap) or just force penalties to be served with the next 2 or 3 laps.

if there was a drive through penalty where you have to drive through the pits IMMEDIATELY without stopping that would be perfect

Upon issue of a penalty, deployment of DRS and ERS is disabled for a fixed number of laps. If too few laps remain an additional time per lap is added to the total race time.

It seems fairly simple.. If a driver overtakes off track or gains an advantage off track that leads to an overtake, once the penalty is decided, the driver has 30 seconds to give the place back of they're DQ'd from the race.. I don't understand how it ever got to the point where someone can overtake off track and KEEP the position??

F1 could learn from Indycar through their use of drive through or going to the back of the field penalties. A 5 or 10 second penalty is a slap on the wrist for a good portion of the field

They should do drive through penalties right away. As soon as it happens. That would eliminate it.

Was just looking for new The Race / F1 content over my lunch break.. good timing.. lol

If the teams are ever calculating 'is it worth breaking this rule and accepting the penalty?' then the penalty is too lenient.

I completely agree that the competitors have too much say... they even have say on who they will compete against (Andretti)

As a sim racing steward, when i'm reviewing incidents i'm always feeling "this might be too harsh of a penalty" until I remember "ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARSH" as a deterrent! Bring in DT's for contact, track limits etc - and you will see a HELL of a lot of difference in the way they drive :)

4:20 if you rob a bank then you are not just told to give the money back. Good point.

Bring back armco barriers and gravel traps. Natural consequences work best.

Not penalizing a violation because it wasn't penalized in the past (in the case of Norris' jump start) makes absolutely no sense. In that case you might as well ditch the rule. The rules are the rules, the Formula is the Formula. It MUST be applied consistently. And there are plenty of ways to meaningfully penalize a driver. For example, in the case where MAG overtook TSU and then went off-track, disable ERS for 5 laps. That would not entirely destroy someone's race but still be a meaningful penalty and deterrent. The same goes for track limits. They need to be applied to every corner on every track. If that means drivers can't take the corner as fast as they used to, tough, but it's the same for everyone. F1 needs to update their penalties taking the current tech into account. Get creative, like the constructors do.

I agree about it’s better to be too harsh with the penalties. For things like an unsafe release the pits for example, a drive through penalty will make teams think twice before risking a collision

In psychology, a potential offender perceiving a higher likelihood of being caught/ penalised is generally more effective to discourage offending than increasing the penalty. So, if the stewards make sure that every offence gets a penalty, and they err on the side of penalising rather than letting someone off because it seems harsh, there'll be less issues

Overtake off the track: Give back position within a reasonable about of time or get a drive through penalty to be served within the next couple of laps. That will give the position back and be a deterrent for sure.

Funny how when there were gravel traps it was not really a problem, as they gave their own immediate penalty rather than now with the tarmac runoff, might be a clue to the solution there!

Make it a 5s penalty if they don't immediately give the place back, and if they carry on more than 2 corners without giving it back, then give them drive-through penalty immediately. That way if it's an innocent mistake they get one chance to yield without a penalty, and one chance to get just a minor penalty, but if they don't make it right then a mandatory drive-through removes them from the part of the race they've interfered with.

I think the weighing of penalties within teams should be allowed and sort of enabled, because it will happen no matter what. For example: I would deal with this by making penalties for track infringements such as overtaking outside track limits here a progressive penalty system. From the overtake you have X amount of corners time to give it back, before the second penalties apply. Then it would transition to 5 seconds. Give the place back in 2 laps time or the penalty will increase to 10 seconds and so on. 10 laps down and it's a disqualification(? or something equally as heavy). This way there is that wiggle room with a very heavy insentive to obay stewards orders and continue on as normal. If the race ends in this time period, the time will be added on or the position is dropped back. For the teams and drivers, racing is a mind game more than anything, so conform the rules to account for that. The car regulations are like this, so why aren't the racing rules like that also. Cars evolve over time and so do tactics on how to use said cars. the rules are better off not being a hard wall, but rather like a gravel trap.

A drive-through is a type of long lap; even more pronounced if it includes a stop/go. The only disadvantage is that it's in the pit lane which can be a dense traffic zone at times.

How to get a Monaco podium as an F1 backmarker! 1. Overtake everyone by cutting through Saint Devote and Nouvelle 2. Dont get lapped 3. ??? 4. Podium!!

Alex Albon said it best- “When an off track overtake happens, the offending driver always needs to give back the position and serve the time penalty.”

its very simple, at least for out of rules overtakes: if driver A overtakes driver B by breaking a rule, you have to give position back withing the end of the next lap if driver A fails to give the position back > drive through penalty

For an illegal overtake (i.e. going off track), give the place back within 2 laps or get a drive through

What K-Mag did was fine, its called strategy. He played the team game and thats what mattered for Haas, the other teams should have adapted or try take a risk. I didnt hear Alonso getting this dicussion raised after the 2022 Monaco GP where he held the whole grid from P7 down.

I think that in the illegal overtake case, the FIA should tell the driver to give the place back in x laps or else he will be disqualified. This would be simpler and force the driver to act soon.

Introduce stop/go or drive thru pit stop at the end of the current lap you in. If it a pit infringement you do it and the end on the lap. Ie 2 stop one lap

One solution could be to have an additional longer route on part of the circuit called a "penalty lane" that has to be driven down when the driver commits an offence. It could add approx 5 to 10 seconds to a drivers lap time and must be driven down within 3 laps. That wouldn't be as severe as driving slowly down the pitlane for a drive through.

Easy way to stop track limits - gravel traps and walls. No track limits violations in Monaco. Just saying

They should bring back drive throughs as minimal penalty. Also penalties should be applied just as they do in sim racing, you have 3 laps or you get disqualified. To help the matter, stewards should be way faster at investigating incidents, they can not be investigating 10 laps or more after the fact

penalty for overtaking off the track could be - your finishing position is moved to behind the person you passed, regardless of how far back that may be. Or just go back to a drive through penalty within 2 laps. worked before

Funny, all the years Mercedes was minutes ahead of the entire grid we didn't mind the current penalty system. Today Mercedes is falling further and further behind and now we must take away the thing Mercedes gamed for their advantage to once again help them get free positions on track through the penality system.

Just like how it was in the 90s and earlier No penalties unless something is deliberate.

An unsafe pit release being only a 5 second penalty and a track limit violation only being worth 10 seconds is somewhat idiotic. Bring back drive through penalties and Stop and Go penalties.

if you overtake off track, you either give the place back within 2 sectors, or serve a drive through penalty the next lap. 1) the penalty is big enough to dissuade people from doing it, and 2) if they do, the penalty corrects the situation on track so we don't have to do math to figure out the final classification

What about option penalties? Like you have to keep the same colour tyre on if you pit. Team driver orders can not change. A driver has to drop back a place on the grid. As for giving the penalty that can be done with computer vision trained in warmup.

they should look at the MotoGP long lap penalty. It's not the big penalty of a drive-through but it means track position is given up and for a bigger offence you can have multiple long laps.

Can f1 not do what Motogp does... Create a long lap that adds 4-5 seconds on the usual lap and if you've committed an of track pass / gain an advantage you have to the end of next lap to swap back or its the long lap penality the lap after that. Giving stewards time to view it and not having a 20 lap impact on the grand prix. 🤷‍♂️

Couldn't agree more with what was said here. I remember when I started watching F1 in 2007, colissions were usually penalised with drive through or 10 place grid drops for example, and penalties for other offences were harsher as well. Also, something like a long lap from MotoGP could be decent for policing things like passing off track, or maybe something like a penalty box were you have to do a quick stop and go that would be placed in the safe spot of the run off of one of the corners

I think a potential solution would be somethig like a slow down penalty like in sim racing. Where the driver would slow down whenever the penalty is issued and essentially add the required penalty time to their lap. That way any advantage gained would be reversed and it acts immediately as a deterrent.

10s penalty should trigger after 30 seconds of being in front when you shouldn't be, and then another 10 seconds for every lap you haven't corrected it. Or at least attempted to correct it.

the more you realise F1 is dying...

They could add a "penalty box" somewhere on the grid in a location safe for drivers to pullover, and with some sort of protective barrier, where a car must come to a complete stop and serve up to a 10 sec penalty. There would not be the pit lane speed limit creating a larger penalty, just the deceleration/acceleration to/from a stop, and they could be served immediately.

Bring back drive through penalties . An unsafe release like the Perez incident from Jeddah should have been a 10 second stop go imo. An accident in the pit lane with that many cars scrambling around due to the safety car, could very easily have turned into dead pit crew or broadcast staff

Why 5sec or 10sec ? They could have go with 7seconds ? 5sec if it's not enough, 10sec is to harsh, you don't want to overtake on the outside atm because if the others drivers push you wide out of the track you get 10sec and your race is over :/

Going off track happens all the time (except on the tracks with walls, like Monaco obviously). I'd like to see gravel-traps come back in place of the massive run-off areas we now have.

I have a simple solution for the overtaking off the track problem: drivers have to give the place back-regardless of how far ahead they’ve gotten since-plus the time penalty. Failure to give the place back will result in a mandatory stop & go penalty and failure to serve the stop and go will be met with a disqualification.

One fix they could implement....maybe (not sure on the technicalities of it), but the stewards could have a button that stops the offending car from using their ERS deployment for 2-3 laps. Kind of like an inverse Fan Boost. One of the main reasons KMag was able to stay ahead was because he'd deliberately go slow through the fast twisty section of the lap and save his battery before deploying it off the last corner. This way he was able to get good drive off the final turn on to the pit straight and nullify the DRS advantage. We've seen how ERS issues can affect cars, so this could be a viable solution.

For me a more clever use of penalties are MotoGP’s long laps concept. You must serve it quickly (within a few laps), it is visual and on track, and you still can modulate (applying single or double long laps, for instance).

In magnussen's case, it could be solved with an easy fix. Since a drivethrough is roughly costing 20 sec, the rule could be: "two pending time penalties cause an instant drivethrough."

I think penalties should be immediate and on track. Disable ERS deployment for a lap, no DRS for the rest of the race, etc… things that actually hit them hard and put infringing drivers back in the order

Timed penalty are basically advantages to fast teams vs slow ones. Meaning the cost of the penalty is less harsh when your pace is 1.5s faster...

Long lap penalty like in MotoGP. Rarely is time added to the end of the race so there is minimal confusion at the end. Where they finish is normally where they finish. Long lap adds a couple of seconds to a lap and must be completed without touching the space outside of that penalty zone otherwise it was not completed and must be done again. Not completed within 3 laps, rider is black flagged and race over.

In MotoGP there is a long lap penalty, basically a detour that takes times. Im not sure every track could support that for cars, but it would be an effective way of issuing penalties.

On these Tilke designed tracks with miles of runoff, there should be a long lap penalty like in MotoGP. On the classic tracks without miles of runoff, drive thru penalty. Within two laps of the infraction.

The two wheelers handle that great. Add a penalty loop to every track, to be driven through within 2 laps. One extra long additional curve or a extra slow chicane in a not used variant (most tracks have that anyways)

Well before Edd got to it I was thinking "give the place back or get a drive through", but it needs to be on the same lap.

There was a good contrast in Sunday's Indy NXT race. A driver forced Chadwick off the road which led to her dropping to the back. The penalty given was for the other driver to drop back behind Chadwick. A strong penalty that set an example F1 could take inspiration from.

How about: - give it back within 1 lap - for every lap you don't give it back,+ 5 sec penalty. - after 3 laps, 15sec total penalty - 6 laps: 30 sec penalty, And so on... (If team feels there is no violation and they plan to contest the penalty after, they can keep going and have that penalty erased if they're successful).

Add a penalty box at the start of pit lane. You do something like Magnussen did, you go straight to the penalty box, serve your penalty and once it is served you can then proceed to your pit box.

They already have a good handicapping system, DRS. Disable the competitors DRS for a certain number of laps depending on the infringement. If the timed gap to the next car behind is too great that say 5 laps will do nothing then a drive through penalty perhaps.

I think when it comes to overtaking illegally through either using brute force and literally pushing your way past or cutting corners to over take you should be told straight away hand the position back and if the driver in question refuses to do so there needs to be an instant penalty there and then so a 10 second stop and go for example but it had to be served straight away so for example you over take someone off the track at turn one your instantly told hand it back if you don't hand it back within 2 corners for example you get a ten second stop and go penalty that must be served the first time you reach the pit entrance because then theres no time for the driver to pull out a lead and a stop and go penalty makes it so if the pit lane your losing 27 seconds for a normal pit stop your going to be losing over 30 seconds and not even getting your tires changed in the process meaning you then have to come in again probably that's the only way i see drivers not taking the piss out of the penalties When it comes to kevin magnussen there was nothing wrong with the way he defended like he did the point is the penalty made no difference he had 20 seconds if penalties and because he managed to stay on the leading lap at the end his position didn't change even though there were many cars within 20 seconds of him which is madness

MotoGP style long lap like the video and a few people have mentioned. Id love to see the dynamics of that too.

When it comes to overtaking off track it should be 10 seconds per lap you stay ahead with a black flav after 3 laps

I'm all for drive thru penalties as well if you change points system that you score down to 19th so a 10 second penalty can massively make a difference end of season for the close teams.

What if the other driver forces you off track though? Say you're overtaking around the outside and the inside driver tries to push you off the track on the exit of the corner, so you either have to chose to break track limits or crash. Imo this stems from being able to play chicken with other cars and push them off without penalty (unless they crash).

The issue isn't to do with how the time penalty is applied or how the tracks do not punish the cars enough, it's to do with how hard it is to overtake and how easy it is for certain cars to gain an advantage. Obviously if it is close to impossible to overtake safely or fairly, drivers would prefer to take a penalty just to get ahead of a driver. It's that or stay behind someone for 30 laps in the hope that they make a mistake and do tyre management or knacker your own tires which ruins your race/strategy.

Overtaking off track - no DRS and no hybrid deployment until you give the position back

The time penalty should pondered by the cars speed or something, is the same thing of "if the punishment of a crime is a fine then the crime is legal for a price"

simple solution: you have 1 lap (up to the stewarding sector) to give the place back or you get a drive through/30s time penalty if its in the last couple laps. either you undo the advantage gained willingly or youre forced to give it up through the pits within 3 laps lest you risk a straight dsq, no nonsense, no room for chicanery, no room for arguments, plus it makes not handing the place back almost race ending and thus giving the place back almost immediately is the far better option edit: as the rules are written at the moment, what haas did was perfectly fine and pretty genius, but spirit of the rules its ehhhhhhhhh, hence the need for more immediate and non-optional penalties for things like overtaking off track

I do think the on track penalty box off the racing line like they have in DTM is a very good solution that gives a balance on both sides of the penalty. Having a time penalty added on at the end of the race is never going to work.

For illegal overtakes, it needs to be an immediate penalty, either must be served within 3 laps or the position returned, anything else allows the system to be gamed

Formula 1 needs to take a page out of NASCAR's book. Penalized? We could follow a few different ideals: - Time penalty (not usually used in NASCAR, but relevant in F1) - Drive Thru (no stop) - Tail end of the longest line (for when penalties happen under SC) - If you get a time penalty, you must serve within 3 laps, no less than the start of 2 laps before the end of the race. This eliminates the drive thru need- since it's worse. - For tail end of the longest line, this can be granted if racing is under SC or Red flag. The driver will go to the tail end, even behind backmarkers. Situation: Causing a collision and the SC comes out. Driver starts behind all cars. Penalty not served at end of the race? (or last lap penalty, for example) 1 minute added to the total time, laps not withstanding, per penalty. This isn't rocket science.

The FIA should implement a long lap penalty similar to the FIM's in MotoGP, but with specific stipulations for stewards. After the first three track limits warnings, drivers should be given a drive through. If a driver receives a second round of warnings, a long lap penalty should be handed. This would discourage drivers from exceeding track limits and potentially result in a significant drop in positions. The maximum speed allowed through the long lap penalty should be 1/4 of the car's top speed. This would be easier to enforce as different tracks have different pit lane transit speeds, making it easier to distinguish between cars in the long lap penalty area and those in the pits. This would also help to differentiate between cars in the pits and the long lap penalty area.

I think the solution is actually super simple. Take the long lap approach from motogp. It eliminates the need for penalties to be served at a pit stop or the end of the race, and would physically ensure the penalty has to be taken immediately and prevents situations like we saw in Jeddah. It wouldn’t stop HAAS from legitimately running the same strategy with Magnussen if they are willing to sacrifice a car, but would prevent him from being able to essentially maintain position by going off track.

The way they stare directly into the camera when they're not talking is so fucking funny 😭😭

This literally used to be fixed back in the day when there was 3 lap limit to serve your penalty. Never understood why it was taken back. Just to recap how it worked back in the day you had to serve the penalty at the pitbox if it timed penalty and teams could then compine it with a pitstop but obviously it messed their strategy. And if it was drivethrough or stop and go you could not do any work on the car during that visit to the pits meaning it was harsher than the timed ones in away.

Do it like moto gp.. you overtake outside of track.. then immediate next lap drive an additional portion of lap as penalty.. then they cant game it or use it advantageously in pit stop

Given the pit lane is full of mechanics and crew the punishment for unsafe release should probably be a drive through or stop go, also in the race if a driver is at fault for contact leeds to the other driver getting a puncture or retirement stop go should be used, and they should maybe change time penalties for over taking off track into loose a position penalties either a flat out loose 1 place or no matter where you finish they are put behind the driver they over took off track if they are behind that way it wouldn't matter if they pulled a 30 second gap they would loose if they don't give the position back with in 1 lap of going off track

With the tech now you could implement a Gran turismo type of penalty where your throttle is cut by race control for certain amount of seconds

There is a quite simple way to deal with the overtaking off track issue. If you don’t give the position back within a lap you get auto disqualified. I promise people won’t risk the dq and will always give back the position if this rule is in effect and is actually enforced. Edit: Well I guess they basically agree with that thought process so I’ll just say props for finding the easy fix which for some reason they just refuse to do.

Should have a "give the place back" penalty and if ignored a "compulsory pit stop" penalty should be issued. For track limits it should be a "compulsory pit stop" penalty for a 4th offence. All to be served within 2 laps.

I've thought for a few seasons now some type of individual rolling penalty that limits your speed to be equivalent to the penalty time, for example 5 seconnds, you would have to move off the racing line and it would only be served on straights for safety reasons. similar to the VSC, there would be a penalty button the driver can use

We have a earliest time of arrival with the VSC. Why not just make them stick to a certain lap time on there next lap??