I gently encourage those in the comments who take offense to the more progressive lean in this episode to look beyond it for a moment and recognize that it's still objectively wrong to preach on-demand sex as a religious obligation. I ascribe to the complimentary theological model, like most of the people who were upset with the coverage in this episode, but I urge you all to look past politics for a moment and see that Driscoll's teachings would still be gravely wrong coming from any other political or theological view. The pitfall here is sexual sin, and that is nothing new. It's very easy to for abuse, perversion, and shame to crop up in a system that is heirarchy-focused, and so the patriarchy is an easy target here. But we've been warned since the inception of the church that sexual sin would accompany false teachers. That's what's really going on here. Look beyond the political ideas explored in this episode and seek the moral heart of what's going on. Driscoll preached things that tickled certain ears, hypersexualizing scripture and reducing both men and women to a caricature of themselves. His system is not God's design.

Literally appalled by what l heard from Driscoll regarding personally sexually explicit details. I am no prude but what he said was inappropriate and nauseating. It reveals that he has a perverted mind to reveal intimate details about his own sex life. I am sure his wife was embarrassed and humiliated, but of course, l am sure she wouldn’t be allowed to tell him so! I feel sorry for women who are brainwashed into thinking they have to do whatever they’re told, even if it violates their own conscience. Its just disgusting! At any rate, this is the situation. The church as a whole, does not know how to actually treat women as equals in the light of scripture. We don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth because our way of looking at some scriptures put women in the position of subservience to men with assigned roles and expectations and men (and some women) are determined to use those scriptures to continue to develop their cookie cutter idea of female believers. So whereas men can choose their careers and fulfill their goals and dreams by making a living in whatever way they choose, be it a musician, a public speaker, an educator, a mathematician, preacher or an astronaut, a woman, regardless of her intelligence, level of education or personal desires is always automatically assigned the “role” of homemaker and mother. Women are told to sing to your children, teach your children, pour your life into your children- that is the primary female assignment according to pastors, husbands, and many others, including many other Christian women. So there’s no place for women to function outside of those limited expectations. If your an author, write Children’s books or something that supports the home and family, books on submission are acceptable and encouraged. But what if you’re an artist or you like to do woodworking or you’re great with technology? That would be frowned upon. And you might be a gifted teacher and even have a Master’s degree in Theology but you wouldn’t even be allowed to teach a Sunday School class in church. If you go outside the box and pursue a career, many people within the church will ostracize you. So while the “woke” world willingly embraces women’s talents, abilities and giftings which are God given, the Church rejects the use of any of those to be used outside a small circle of possibilities. At the same time, its being discovered more and more that the men who ride herd on their churches and have such rigid expectations of women are often the ones with leaders who are out of control with temper fits, are sexually perverse, having affairs or are abusive husbands, therefore having fearful, controlled wives, afraid to speak up about oppression and violence, or express a desire to do anything outside their “assigned” role, with many women living like victims with Stockholm syndrome. So the ideologies of the patriarchy, misogyny and nationalist conservatism are associated with the church because it’s primarily the church people who hold most closely to those ways of running homes and government and those ideas come from the way scripture is taught and implemented in the church and the home. I am personally a patriot, a conservative, do not believe in abortion, and know there are only two genders. There are many women like me who hold a lot of these beliefs but don’t hold with being squished into roles that just don’t fit all of us. Many men love control because its men who have that innate desire to control religions, countries, governments, churches, families and individuals. It’s taught that all the power struggle problems arise from women wanting control their husbands and always trying to take control from men, but that’s another lie. Women simply want to be respected just like men do and women, by and large, are not respected at all by most men. For those men who are the exception, good for you, but you are the exception and not the rule. Feminism came into being because for centuries women had no choices. They couldn’t own property. They couldn’t vote. They couldn’t hold a job or get a bank loan. Most had no choices about who they could marry or even if they wanted to marry. Most were expected to marry a person their father approved of and spend their lives keeping house and raising kids, as many as their bodies could bring forth before cratering. They were expected to not deny their husbands physically and to obey them “in everything.” Well, all l can say is that sounds terrible. I was married for 34 years and we had some hard times and difficulties but l had equal say in everything. l was not oppressed and never looked on my husband to be minded like l was a child. Something is terribly wrong with this picture and the way women are treated by the church. Many Christian women are treated almost as bad as Muslim women, and that’s saying something because their lives are awful. The fact is that on average a woman or girl is killed by a man every 9 minutes of every day of every year, and that’s in so-called developed countries where records are actually kept. It’s probably way worse in communist and Muslim countries. Women make up over half of the body of Christ, yet we continue to be treated as subordinates. Both my grandmothers were abused and had horrible lives, the same with my mom. In my 65 years, about 60% of all the women lve known personally and worked with have been physically and-or psychologically abused and a lot of the men involved sat on church benches and professed to be followers of Christ. I know some Christian women who are treated very well and are happy as mom’s and homemakers and lm very happy for them and thankful, but the ones who truly are treated well by their husbands behind closed doors are way less than Christians would like to think.

Why does Christianity Today not use Bible verses to back their views?

Potiphar's wife and the imbalance of power... thank you, CT. People in positions of power (like pastors) rarely talk about power dynamics. Humans are obsessed with imposing hierarchy. But Jesus said the first will be last in His kingdom.

Around 46:00 mark where other Christian leaders were willing to overlook some problems with Mark's teaching because he "checked certain doctrinal boxes" -- that's a really good point. And damn, when Sarah Bessey around 49:00 says that "women / people are needing to re-learn that God loves them..." Wow.

Maybe Driscoll needed someone to scream "How dare you?!" at him for being dishonest, proud, angry, and unrepentant.

To that last question "is it worth the fruit?" I would call into question if it really is fruit or if it's just the grace of God coming in and shifting through the madness to save people. God can use anything to save and he will use fallen broken situations to show truth.

Stoking fears to consolidate power - yes! I might add also stoking fears to sell books and conference tickets.

You did a great job presenting the situation of the women of Mars Hill. The description and analysis of a woman’s position and value transcend the facts and allow me to glimpse the despair they must have felt. Well done.

At best, Mark Driscoll didn't always practice what he preached. Yes there are men in the church who should be rebuked for failing to lead their homes. However, that is not an excuse for him to act toxic himself.

I understand being openness about sex and sexuality in the church but there is a really no need to detail these things so much. And the way that he says it's for God's "daughters to do and his sons to enjoy." What about male stripping? Is that okay? Isn't sex supposed to be about loving each other and the ultimate expression of love? Again the woman in the situation is just a tool it's just to be there. It's the kind of thinking that goes behind female circumcisions. This kind of thinking says that a woman does not deserve to enjoy even though God clearly created women this way to enjoy it.

Andy Stanley is not mainstream or well respected.

If Jesus came today, CT would make a podcast calling him homophobic and toxic

A most excellent audio Documentary!

Great topic, & talk‼️

❤ excellent work

What a creep. Hard to believe how vulnerable people are.

It's interesting that CT seems to take the toxic culture of Driscoll and Mars Hill and lump it together with general conservatism / patriotism in a perjorative way (earlier in this episode). The remainder of the episode is a good skewering of the Mars Hill culture.

"Mainstream evangelical pastors like Andy Stanley" .... that didn't age well.

I knew of mark but didn’t really listen much. There is NO question that men and women have different roles and the beast system we live in is trying desperately to undermine Gods created order. That in and of itself should be all a Christian needs to know in order to take a side. If God wanted men and women to be the same He would have made us the same, but CLEARLY we are not; biologically, mentally….ect.

All you have to do to become aware of Christianity today's hard leaning progressive stance is to listen to this episode. The ideals which they tacitly support and the ideals on which they ever so casually laugh at and place blame tell you everything you need to know. I'm pushing through this entire series but my already low opinion of CT just decreases and decreases. Maybe our liberal brothers and sisters need to spend some time reflecting inwards rather than always jumping to the politics of white nationalism, heteronormativity, and the "evils" of the nuclear family

Ok this has been interesting so far but if i hear that lady say conservative evangelicals one more time... Jeez this got political conpared to the others

As a man with two friends who endured abusive husbands, forgive me if I do not count Driscoll's threats on batterers among his wrongs!

If young men listened to mark rather then Andrew Tate, our society would be way better

This video is a good example of the Jezebel Spirit. A pastor criticized for true biblical teaching that a woman’s place is in the home caring for children because it dis-empowers women? Sounds like something a Jezebel would say. I was raised by a stay-at-home mom & have felt like such a failure because I’ve had to work outside the home as a divorced single-parent. Unable to give my all or my best to my family, education or my career, while under constant high stress, paying bills by ’shut off notice'. My heart breaks for young mothers leaving their infants @ 6-12 weeks with a caregiver to return to work. At least my kids were in grade school before I had to return to work. In today’s world it’s almost impossible for a large family to buy a home on only one income so we sacrifice our children to Moloch, hand them over to others to care for and put them in “free” government indoctrination centers so we can "keep up with the Jones’”. That’s where Jezebel's “empowering women” got us.

Emotionally healthy women and emotionally healthy men see through Driscoll's BS.

It’s sad how unBiblical Christianity Today shows themselves to be here.

I have enjoyed listening to the first few episodes but this is the first one that I think the people at CT let their politics and beliefs influence the content instead of telling this as a narrative story. I like the fact that in the other episodes, they let other people tell their interactions with Mark and other members of the church. Let’s stick to what the Bible says about men and women would be my charge to us believers. Remember God is holy and won’t be mocked. Sin is so devastating that it required the sacrifice of the son of God. You should be able to talk about anything and keep it biblical understanding that some of us have different levels of faith and understanding at different times in our lives.

Only listening to the first few minutes but I'm really getting a lot of "great replacement theory/manifest destiny" vibes from Mark's teaching.

It's the same problem as the IBLP (Institute of Biblical Living Principles)- See Shiny Happy People documentary, and every other cultic teachings. Creating fence laws from scriptures taken out of context to control your own and other's morality. But in this instance, the burden to control is put on the wife. Wives do this to control your husband's sexual urges or desires for porn. Obedience to fence laws doesn't work and isn't Biblical! Jesus broke fence laws, but He obeyed every single law of God. Fence laws cut out the conviction of the Holy Spirit and submission to God. It's not about humility and honoring God but pride in being self-righteous and controlling others behavior to benefit yourself. Judgment day on these Pastors will be terrifying! See James 1:3, Matthew 18:6-7, Ezekiel 34:7-8,10.

If I listened to this and didn't know it was from CT, I would have mistakenly assumed it was presented by NPR. It has a healthy dose of condemning toxic masculinity as explained by a multitude of gender studies experts. Most of this episode was dedicated to beating up traditional values, marriage, and marriage roles. The episode was far more ideologically driven than previous ones. Many of Mark Driscoll's sermons were creepy enough as they were, the woke preaching was unnecessary.

Christianity Today couldn’t and wouldn’t miss the opportunity to inflect what CT does.

Very insightful

with how 'out in the open' these characterizations are it almost makes me wonder how credible the testimony is. I'll have to look into Driscoll to see the other side of the story

I cannot stand this man. He is the opposite of what a pastor should be and an example of the worst kind of husband, father, person that claims to be a Christian. I'm physically ill listening to this!

When speaking in Scotland, Mark Driscoll said that oral sex was biblical and that women should proform oral sex on there husbands, but does it work both ways? Should men proform oral sex on their wives? If not, this is a form of toxic masculinity or masagony.

I disagree with Kristine’s take on men.

No, the question we should ask is, “Is it true”?

How daaaaarreeee you !

Excuse my language, but that is some disturbing shit going on. Real men from the world of construction would have called Mark out, even the ones that are disturbed and unregenerated. I hope Mark gets some help.

I'm familiar with the more conservative as well as progressive strains of theology reflected in this video. Can't say I agree completely with either side portrayed here. Shocking. Would a hierarchy of the man being the leader WHILE being partners in the home work rather well? After many, many years of pondering, prayer and observation, of conservative to progressive couples, it seems like an obvious "Yes". For most couples. Maybe not all, to the more liberal take. One couple's Trad-Con style actually might not work well for another couple. But what also doesn't work? Progressives to dog the actually well-oiled machine of conservative marriages. RE: Sex. This episode brought me mixed feelings. On the one hand Driscoll was being far more open and freeing ( like Liberals would be about sex, perhaps ) regarding oral sex, how to dress, stripping for one's husband. These are ironically rather progressive, to those who would think he's merely being a "porn-minded" archaic version of a sexist, objectifying man. Really? He's bringing the honest sexuality of many men to women and telling them both: You're married, don't go outside to an actual strip club, how about bringing it home and enjoy it there!? Sounds amazingly freeing in sexuality. For Progressives to sit there and reduce the heart of that message to being "the porn mind-set" is either lazy, sexist, possibly prudish, or maybe just narrow-minded and self-centered. Why? Because it smacks of projecting their "stuff" onto him RATHER than CELEBRATING the Freedom and Pleasure and Love this could bring marriages. If YOU don't like oral sex, whether you're a woman OR a man, then fine, negotiate how you want it. My guess is the vast majority of men do. But my guess is that women ALSO love it. Which leads me to... Not done yet. As to the examples only being about what a woman can do for a man DOES diminish marital sexuality down to: Woman, serve thee thy man. Blecch. Even in much of actual porn ( videos ) the man is absolutely serving the woman, giving oral sex, contrary to the gross assumption made in this video that porn is only about men and how they "objectify" women. Wrong. Do more research, or at least be humble as to your ignorance. And please, please be open to the probability that most women won't admit to their secret fantasies, sexual kinks, etc., because of the old expectation to be a princess and a lady. As if women aren't into Erotica or "animalistic" sex as one woman criticized in this episode. Sex is always to be genteel, always romantic, always staring into each other's eyes, no experimentation, no "having sex" instead of "making love"? In this respect both Driscoll AND the progressive commentators in this episode missed the mark, respectively. We can learn from each other. One camp's idea of sexual freedom is another camp's shame. One woman's turn-on is another woman's degradation. THAT is how VARIED our sexuality can be. And it can be fine, good, freeing, amazing, within their own particular contexts. We can actually disagree in these matters and still love God, be of one Unity in Spirit, in Love, Truth and Grace. P.S. - On the matter of a wife's "duty" to have sex with their husband every day? Well, doesn't it depend on whether they negotiated for that, she agree, and she isn't fulfilling that? Or maybe they didn't agree to that and she has a point in pushing back on it as a now demand. Valid. Context always matters. Vice versa, BTW. If the man is not fulfilling his end of the agreement, fair to challenge him squarely on that. We shouldn't lie, break those agreements, but why can't we re-negotiate the agreement later? This hard-line rule ( out of his @ss, it sounds like ) to have sex with one's husband every day smacks of sexism, NOT the kind of Christian loving relationship where both are of equal value, dignity and respect.

You guys realize this isnt a church, it's a cult... right? Cults have been studied for years and years, this "church" fits the criteria.

No fan of Driscoll but these Hyper progressive liberal women giving their 2 cents is hard to listen

These commentators are missing the messages from the Bible on marriage. You aren’t “partners” with your wife. You’re one. That means you’re different parts of the body with different roles. This is one of the things Mark gets right. He definitely got things wrong and you all get this topic way wrong.

If this channel is Christian, then the subreddit “Christianity” is Saint Paul.

Still waiting for a single Biblical argument- instead of woke ideology and Marxist deconstructionism.

MD was a tyrannical leader who crossed the line in so many ways. Let's get that out of the way first. With that said, I found it an amazing contrast to juxtapose the first few episodes detailing MD's message to men vs this episode detailing MD's message to women. MD (esp in Episodes 3 and 4) railed on the men for failing to live Biblically defined masculine lives. The focus was on the style of messaging, the homophobic rants, the use of the William Wallace 2 account, and other forms of brow beating. Little was said of the actual content of the message, as it's pretty darn Biblical to demand men step up as men and lead, pray, protect, and serve their wives and household -- put down the porn, put down the beer, put down the video games, and actually plug into your wife and family!!! But the way he delivered this message crossed from tough love to inappropriate many times. In this episode, however, the toxicity was the content itself, not just the delivery. MD spoke about Song of Solomon as instructive, not just an interesting love story ... one that really illustrates how marital desire to please one another ought to work. He backed this with Corinthians and other passages that demands sex be a foundational part of a marriage and how withholding this sex does lead to the temptation that Paul (Holy Spirit, really) wrote about. MD again crossed the lines with profanity and awful delivery, but this episode focused a lot on the toxicity of the underlying message more than the profane/inappropriate manner in which it was delivered. When men are challenged to live masculine lives as defined by the Bible, the content is OK but the delivery is terrible. When women are challenged to live feminine lives as defined by the Bible, the delivery is offensive but the content is the real trauma. CT really demonstrates the influence of culture here. We're generally OK calling out men ... but don't dare tell a woman what to do. That's traumatic, "spiritual abuse," and so on. So many of the women talked about the heavy burden that placed on them (a command to be sexually active with their husbands) and how that was unfair and unhealthy. OK, how is that any different than the heavy burden placed on the men? That's why sanctification is a lifelong process -- the direction given in the Bible is really hard to do and is counter-culture ... and counter to our own self-interested desires. Being told to be submissive to God and be submissive to your husband is about the most toxic thing a person can tell a woman in today's post modern culture ... but it is very much Biblical. Rail all you want on MD's delivery, as it is most certainly profane, offensive, and inappropriate. But, the doctrine that speaks to women's responsibility to meet their husbands' sexual needs is pretty solid, despite how CT wants to characterize it here. If I tell a person, "Eat your vegetable because they're healthy, you rotten, f--ing, son of a b---h!" I'm clearly unhinged, abusive, and wildly inappropriate. You'd do well to walk away from me. I'm a jerk. But, that doesn't also mean that eating your vegetables is unhealthy.

An authoritative marriage model was not advanced by Jesus; to the contrary: He modelled servant leadership; by calling and uplifting His followers to be acting as His friends. Fittingly husbands and wives should submit to one another - in reverance to Christ. Very much needed though, for women to be called back into their homes, and to be honoured and respected for fulfilling their calling as wives and mothers there. The lie that women are supposedly empowered by being enabled to compete with men outside their homes, should be laid bare. So very harmful for children to be robbed from a mother's care, and a safe home environment; this while routinely, wilfully exposed by their parents to stranger danger. Truth is that most modern men are demanding this from their wives, with many literally being forced to not work at their own homes; meaning that women are ending up exhausted, burned out, and in reality not accomplishing much in any role. The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy... Sadly it seems MD's failures, and sinful conduct in some areas are now serving as justification to advance the feminist agenda?

When Mark is screaming in that clip "how dare you", it sounds like an abuser to me.

Some of the key points that needed to be addressed were addressed. Mark and his church, along with many others in our culture, have pushed the narrative that sex is for men to enjoy and women to give. The Bible has mentioned over and over again that sex is for husband and wife to both enjoy inside of marriage. The gender roles being propagated by Mark and other men in society today have taken these Bible passages and run with them to an extreme. That being said, Christianity Today along with many of the sources used to refute Mark hold to clearly anti-biblical beliefs and push ideas that are contrary to biblical principles. Both sides have their faults and I’m tired of there being no platforms in the middle ground.

As a woman who loves God more than liberal and progressive ideals... This episode is woke and pathetic. I love the overall series but why is Christianity today so freaking liberal ? What happened to biblical Christianity ?

GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PASS JUDGEMENT ON ANOTHER. THE LORD REBUKES SATAN IN ALL FORMS. GOSSIP IS A SIN WITHIN ITSELF. WHY NOT PREACH THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FINDING FAULT WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU TAUGHT TO HATE? JESUS COMMANDS US TO LOVE EACH OTHER. YOU ARE DEFAMING SOMEONE ELSE. ARE YOU CLEAN? ARE YOU PERFECT? DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES? STEP DOWN FROM YOUR PLATFORM AND SERVE GOD.

This is a highly recommended anthropological study of the primitive peoples of America who believe in the supernatural.

Jellyfish Christian’s shoveling dirt on the grave of an honest and human attempt to follow Christ.

If young men listened to mark rather then Andrew Tate, our society would be way better