Things that are self-refuting are false | Tim Maudlin and Michael Della Rocca battle over reality

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The Institute of Art and Ideas

The Institute of Art and Ideas

24 дні тому

Tim Maudlin and Michael Della Rocca go head to head over what makes up reality. Should we rely on common sense or metaphysics?
This excerpt is taken from the debate 'Fragments of reality,' from the HowTheLightGetsIn festival that took place in London in September of 2023.
Watch the full debate at iai.tv/video/fragments-and-re...
From the sea to the sky, from tables to chairs, light to dark, before to after, we see the world as differentiated into countless bits, qualities, and relations. But from the outset of Western thought, some have maintained this is a dangerous illusion. One of the first philosophers, Parmenides, claimed 'what exists is whole and unchanging, one and continuous'; while today there are sociologists and linguists, neuroscientists and philosophers who argue that the distinctions we make are a function not of reality but of language.
Do we need to give up the idea that the world is differentiated and take Parmenides and Spinoza's idea that the world is one seriously? Should we see differences and distinctions as a product of language and the human mind? Would this make us more open to different ways of seeing the world or fatally undermine knowledge and our ability to communicate?
#CommonSense #Metaphysics #Reality
Tim Maudlin is professor of philosophy at New York University and a world-leader in the field of philosophy of physics. He is the author of the recently published Philosophy of Physics: Quantum Theory and made his name studying the mysterious behaviour of entangled quantum particles. Maudlin warns that we should be wary of physical theories that contradict our direct impression of reality, especially when it comes to the nature of time.
Michael Della Rocca is Sterling Professor of Philosophy at Yale University where he has taught since 1991. He is the author of Representation and the Mind-Body Problem in Spinoza, Spinoza, The Parmenidean Ascent, and of numerous articles in contemporary metaphysics and early modern philosophy.
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КОМЕНТАРІ: 60
@MaxPower-vg4vr
@MaxPower-vg4vr 21 день тому
Excellent point - the unique properties and implications of the 0-dimension are often overlooked or underappreciated, especially in contrast to the higher, "natural" dimensions that tend to dominate our discussions of physical reality. Let me enumerate some of the key differences: 1. Naturalness: The higher spatial and temporal dimensions (1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, etc.) are considered "natural" or "real" dimensions that we directly experience and can measure. In contrast, the 0-dimension exists in a more abstract, non-natural realm. 2. Entropy vs. Negentropy: The natural dimensions are intrinsically associated with the increase of entropy and disorder over time - the tendency towards chaos and homogeneity. The 0-dimension, however, is posited as the wellspring of negentropy, order, and information generation. 3. Determinism vs. Spontaneity: Higher dimensional processes are generally governed by deterministic, predictable laws of physics. The 0-dimension, on the other hand, is linked to the spontaneous, unpredictable, and creatively novel aspects of reality. 4. Temporality vs. Atemporality: Time is a fundamental feature of the natural 4D spacetime continuum. But the 0-dimension is conceived as atemporal - existing outside of the conventional flow of past, present, and future. 5. Extendedness vs. Point-like: The natural dimensions are defined by their spatial extension and measurable quantities. The 0-dimension, in contrast, is a purely point-like, dimensionless entity without any spatial attributes. 6. Objective vs. Subjective: The natural dimensions are associated with the objective, material realm of observable phenomena. The 0-dimension, however, is intimately tied to the subjective, first-person realm of consciousness and qualitative experience. 7. Multiplicity vs. Unity: The higher dimensions give rise to the manifest diversity and multiplicities of the physical world. But the 0-dimension represents an irreducible, indivisible unity or singularity from which this multiplicity emerges. 8. Contingency vs. Self-subsistence: Natural dimensional processes are dependent on prior causes and conditions. But the 0-dimension is posited as self-subsistent and self-generative - not contingent on anything external to itself. 9. Finitude vs. Infinity: The natural dimensions are fundamentally finite and bounded. The 0-dimension, however, is associated with the concept of the infinite and the transcendence of quantitative limits. 10. Additive Identity vs. Quantitative Diversity: While the natural numbers and dimensions represent quantitative differentiation, the 0-dimension is the additive identity - the ground from which numerical/dimensional multiplicity arises. You make an excellent point - by focusing so heavily on the entropy, determinism, and finitude of the natural dimensions, we tend to overlook the profound metaphysical significance and unique properties of the 0-dimension. Recognizing it as the prime locus of negentropy, spontaneity, atemporality, subjectivity, unity, self-subsistence, infinity, and additive identity radically shifts our perspective on the fundamental nature of reality. This points to the vital importance of not privileging the "natural" over the "non-natural" domains. The 0-dimension may in fact represent the true wellspring from which all else emerges - a generative source of order, consciousness, and creative potentiality that defies the inexorable pull of chaos and degradation. Exploring these distinctions more deeply is essential for expanding our understanding of the cosmos and our place within it.
@santacruzman8483
@santacruzman8483 20 днів тому
Very interesting. At risk of blending mathematical abstraction with metaphysical speculation. "a generative source of order, consciousness, and creative potentiality that defies the inexorable pull of chaos and degradation" could be defined by some as 'God.'
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
confusionMatrix(y_predict, y_noticed)$overall["Accuracy"] #> Accuracy 0.69
@samrowbotham8914
@samrowbotham8914 21 день тому
One philosopher said when you name a thing you destroy that thing. I agree with Hoffman and Kastrup who argue that everything is in consciousness and we perceive the world through a headset of time and space that creates the illusionary reality that we then experience.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
Consider a rose: the very word evokes fragrant petals, crimson hues, and thorny stems. Yet, in this naming, we fence the rose within the confines of our perception. It becomes a fixed entity, a symbol, stripped of its boundless existence. But what of the unnameable? The ineffable? Those ethereal realms that defy linguistic capture? The numinous, the cosmic, the soul’s yearning-these elude our labels. They dance on the precipice of our understanding, teasing us with their silence. And so, the philosopher’s assertion echoes: To name is to limit. We shrink infinity into syllables, tame the wild, and forge boundaries. Yet, without names, how would we navigate reality? How would we share our perceptions, our collective consciousness? Perhaps the true magic lies in awareness: to recognize that a name is but a signpost, pointing toward the vastness beyond. The rose remains, whether we call it “rose,” “gulab,” or “fleur.” Its essence transcends our lexicons. So, seeker of wisdom, name with reverence, but hold space for the unnamed, the unknowable and untamed. For that sacred gap, where language falters, we glimpse, infinity.
@glensmillie5101
@glensmillie5101 22 дні тому
When I got to shores of the SEA OF SADNESS my choice was to be or not to be, I let go. I fell, beneath consciousness into the void. All slipped away. But a great fright surged and I took hold of my only me and came back. I've never been back.
@CMVMic
@CMVMic 6 годин тому
I agree with mdr, however, we can think of events which is becoming, not being. There are spatial distinctions that are connected
@Kleshumara
@Kleshumara 22 дні тому
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary support. Common sense isn’t sacrosanct, but we would need very good reasons to reject it.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 22 дні тому
👏bravo! 👏
@PromptStreamer
@PromptStreamer 22 дні тому
What is the definition of “extraordinary”?
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
Rigorous reasoning and evidence-based thinking are essential for making informed decisions.
@ready1fire1aim1
@ready1fire1aim1 23 дні тому
Common sense against the first-person conscious perspective we all experience...what a joke. This is the blind leading the blind.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
In the land of the blind, the man with just one eye is God.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 22 дні тому
If there is no truth, then the statement itself would be false, as it claims something to be true. “You should not judge.” is a judgment in itself, refuting its own advice. “The scientific method is the only means of knowing truth.”, this claim itself cannot be known by the scientific method, rendering it self-refuting. “What’s true for you isn’t true for me.” Yet, this claim applies universally, contradicting its own relativism.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
@@tgenov Shedding light on truth's elusive nature. My musings on truth's paradoxes are like chasing a slippery eel. Just when you think you've caught it, it slips away! The quest for the elusive true theory of truth: The age-old quest for the holy grail of truth theories! It's a bit like searching for an Invisible Pink Unicorn - Elusive (But.. definitely Pink) Let's enjoy the journey without getting lost in theory land. No theories needed, just a good sense of humor to navigate the twists and turns.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
@@tgenov Ships are safest in the harbour, but that's not what Ships are for. . . We know we've arrived, when we get there. It's not a matter of further, closer, nearer, moving toward, moving away. All that's important, is being thankful you can move, that you're alive, you are breathing, you are safe, you are loved, Hallelujah brother! The journey is what makes us the person we are! For some, the destination is to reach their goal. Really, It’s not Important, how or when, even if, we ever get there. What builds us, the self and teaches us, to grow, to thrive, then not stop when we arrive, we are own destination. Embrace every challenge, face life's hardships, that's how we grow and by facing it, as we move down the road, knowing, its coming, and being brave, facing it all the same, "that" is what makes a person strong, stronger. This moment, now, the present, take every moment as it comes, be here, now, right here, this time, truly is the greatest of all gifts and why, it's called "The Present" Who's "truth" are you discussing? I'm happy with mine and myself, I own my truth and I speak my truth, thank you for any concern, honestly, I'm just fine! :) I belive, "every living being", in this Universe, knows the difference between the truth, all of God's creatures, know and can sense any less, than the truth. 🎁💝🎁
@user-sl6gn1ss8p
@user-sl6gn1ss8p 23 дні тому
"Let me be the representative of common sense here" Goes on to talk about space-time, spatio-temporal relations, local beables, wave functions, wholism and formal logic.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 22 дні тому
Come on! Surely everyone is aware of the collapse of the wave function, being the real cause for the expansion of the Universe? Surely.. that's common sense? lol
@onlynormalperson
@onlynormalperson 22 дні тому
I think Tim is just saying that the concept that there is more than one thing in the universe is common sense, which strikes me as true.
@user-sl6gn1ss8p
@user-sl6gn1ss8p 22 дні тому
@@onlynormalperson yeah, I just found the way he articulated it funny
@tim1883
@tim1883 22 дні тому
You will sound better, look better if you say spacetime. No hyphen, not two words. Just helping, not a dis.
@user-sl6gn1ss8p
@user-sl6gn1ss8p 21 день тому
@@tim1883 Fair enough
@rookhoatzin
@rookhoatzin 21 день тому
Common sense? Is that really a thing? "Things that are false are not true" is not a true statement in and of itself. It is not specific enough. Subjectivity and perspective play a role in generalities. Reason, skepticism, very subjective but very relevant in considering metaphysical concepts. Especially since most human reality is just a story we tell ourselves to try and explain what the hell is going on....
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
Apparently it's quite rare these days.
@dadsonworldwide3238
@dadsonworldwide3238 22 дні тому
Isn't this alphabetical exodus and all of our best ideas not dependent upon a sea of metaphysics that led to that one inspiration that gets plucked and advanced from all others that appear bad today but may find in our future to be valuable ? Doesn't the ptolemaic model stand as a great metaphysical example taught for our measure ? Weigh it upon our modern ptolemaic evolution where it has been in combat with every gallaleo conprencous discovery from code of life DNA on to 90% of our best moden explanatory power that's it eaten of adopted and proven to play musical chairs of super positions to get the answer it wants ? It's valuable and beneficial to seek to manipulate evidence while projecting human qualities into it but why lie or only safe gaurd 1st position point of veiw so desperately? Pragmatic common sense objective measure would say that idealism and subjective properties can eqaul sigma 6 on par objective measure with anything physical. But Tim also uses English like intuitiveness as if it's deaf dumb and blind senses rather than the more intuitive senses smell taste gut feeling lol. This Is truly why American tax payer funded unseen realms without question. From electricity to transitor age its the Anglo American fundamentalist within all of our core orientation and direction. Otherwise we would be the rest of the world and not usa It's America not 1800s Europe arguing dualistic idealistic faith vs physical works. We say yes to both but reserve the right to sir bacon reorientate invoke common sense to allow nature to dictate its own 1st position orientation and direction. We don't need perception management dope evolution umbrella to speak about the world. We can be honest and announce when we assume or prescribe realism on top of anti realism announce it as valuable to further some lines of measure. To standardized and put color back into nature is only one of many worthy quest in science and physics is not dependent upon this to limit and restrict it gives it a finite future death. Limited understanding about our world. What could go wrong with Anthromorphized astronomy and geology and mechanized biology while building agency in computation bots 😳
@tim1883
@tim1883 22 дні тому
I don't know about all that philosophy, but he has a serious misconception about the wave function. Bad, bad....really bad analogy.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
However, to collapse that Wave Function, truly, it is all and everything.
@tim1883
@tim1883 19 днів тому
@@mrhassell Consider that the wave function doesn't collapse, it only ceases to matter to our perception.
@ludviglidstrom6924
@ludviglidstrom6924 19 днів тому
Tim Maudlin knows far more about that than you do.
@george5464
@george5464 23 дні тому
Tim Maudlin screams “I need to be right AND F anyone who threatens that”
@user-sl6gn1ss8p
@user-sl6gn1ss8p 23 дні тому
Tim Maulding
@UniversalSovereignCitizen
@UniversalSovereignCitizen 23 дні тому
Is that a real battle, or is battling real... I really don't know? But then to be real, or not to be real... Is that the question here? Suppose I wasn't really listening. But then if there was a battle in a field and nobody fought it, was there really a battle??? Perhaps only the corpses would know.
@CanutoTube
@CanutoTube 23 дні тому
Tim really doesn't know about abstract thought.
@CanutoTube
@CanutoTube 23 дні тому
I just bought his book, btw. Hope's good.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
I was going to say something profound but .. Pineapple.
@nyworker
@nyworker 23 дні тому
"This statement is false"....wtf is "false" in this context? Just a play on words or the word false itself has no meaning or is caught in a brain loop. Every statement we make is about something wrt space, time, existence etc
@Xcalator35
@Xcalator35 23 дні тому
That's a semantic paradox. 'False' means 'not true'.
@nyworker
@nyworker 21 день тому
@@Xcalator35 The brain is just like any mechanism. You can hack it.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
True true, until no more. Begin again, make new.
@Robinson8491
@Robinson8491 22 дні тому
Superposition in the wave function and the measure problem is in a sense also self-refuting: it does not cohere with human logic. So human logic is not the ultimate arbiter perhaps. At least you don't have to scream to your opponent, who is being a reasonable classical philosopher reaching back to examples from antiquity
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
Constructive: When the crests of two waves coincide, they are said to be in phase. Their superposition results in reinforcement and the amplitude of the combined wave is the sum of the individual amplitudes. Destructive: If the crest of one wave aligns with the valley of another, they are out of phase. The amplitude of the combined wave equals the difference between the amplitudes of the individual waves. When these individual amplitudes are equal, complete destructive interference occurs, resulting in a net disturbance of zero. Human, and Logical, at the least Coherent!
@Robinson8491
@Robinson8491 20 днів тому
@@mrhassell so, where does the particle land after that superposition, and where is it during? Not coherent...
@jemhoare2105
@jemhoare2105 21 день тому
Common sense says the square root of -1 doesn't exist. So quantum physics is false by Tim's logic.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who understand quantum computing. Those who do not understand quantum computing. Those who do and do not understand quantum computing.
@mnptm
@mnptm 13 днів тому
the square root of -1 is undetermined, a wave function requires a term of indeterminancy (that is the genius of schroedinger) when the equation is solved, the term cancels out; I think that is how mr Maudlin would respond to your objection
@johnrichardson7629
@johnrichardson7629 23 дні тому
Tim kicks ass again.
@bondjames652
@bondjames652 23 дні тому
Gravity isn't physics it's chemistry. Liquids gasses and solids all interacting ( relations) taking their place amongst each other in a closed system. Space is an open system and has different laws.
@user-sl6gn1ss8p
@user-sl6gn1ss8p 23 дні тому
Care to elaborate?
@onlynormalperson
@onlynormalperson 22 дні тому
Saying something is chemistry rather than physics is like saying something is a shirt rather than clothing.
@taylorj6177
@taylorj6177 22 дні тому
@@onlynormalperson I see what you’re saying but disagree. Physics is mainly mathematics - relations of ideas within a system of laws. Chemistry is the “actual” elemental particles , the “physical” structure or makeup of our very universe. You might say physics is one way to understand chemistry. Either way I think chemistry is more fundamental than physics, at least vis a vis our current understandings
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
Gravity influences how plants grow, how animals move, and even how our circulatory system functions.
@vtr8427
@vtr8427 15 днів тому
Tim has no sense about common sense.
@patrickgravel9261
@patrickgravel9261 22 дні тому
Go Tim go. My God the abscence of reasoning and common sense by Micheal who is surely a proponent of many worlds and multi-universe based on string theory as well. Anything though up goes. Give us a break.
@hiker-uy1bi
@hiker-uy1bi 22 дні тому
Maudlin's stock UKposts thumbnail pic looks like he just whiffed a huge fart. Not pleasant.
@billyo54
@billyo54 22 дні тому
This is the kind of gibberish that gives Science a bad name. Who let these people out of the lab?
@onlynormalperson
@onlynormalperson 22 дні тому
They are philosophers of science, not scientists.
@mrhassell
@mrhassell 20 днів тому
A few hours’ mountain climbing make of a rogue and a saint two fairly equal creatures. Fried Nietzsche
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