Check out the latest in our EV Basics series talking about bi-directional charging and why it is important! ukposts.info/have/v-deo/bo-LgYGCf65-sYU.html

With LFP battery technology, charging still slows the closer you get to 100%, but you don't need to stop at 80% or 90%. Otherwise, the 80% Rule is very important. For more in this series --> ukposts.info/slow/PLPSKilVZK-JLPDMm1Re9YtSw40dLPacvy

I had a 2013 Nissan Leaf that I charged overnight to 100% everyday because I needed the range for my wife’s commute. Now the Leafs were notorious for battery degradation. BUT, I had 80% capacity when I sold the Leaf with 80K after 6 years of use. I also frequently charged using the CHADEMO fast charging port when I used the Leaf for Uber driving. This is REAL WORLD experience not theoretical musings. However, I do agree that charging to 100% wastes time.

Another great analogy which I learned in high school physics class was filling up a glass or bottle of with water at the tap. The closer you get to the bottom, the slower you have to add the water otherwise the air bubbles trapped in the water will pile up and push water out. The increasing voltage in the battery creates a similar sort of "resistance" to charging which is also why KIA moved to 800 Volt charging technology.

You may also want to watch this for a more detailed explanation of battery chemistry: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/iYKBrptrnWaY1IU.html

Thank you for the video. I wonder how many people buying an EV car are told this when they buy it. BUT and it's a BIG BUT, if you are only supposed to charge your EV battery to 80% AND you are ONLY supposed to let the battery get to 20% before charging that means you are ONLY running on a 60% charge! So, if an advertised range of an EV is 300 miles, in reality it is only 180 miles!

Thank you. I would have included a 20% discharge limit too. You may exacerbate range anxiety but at a great service to your viewers.

I’m been charging my Mach E to 90% at home since I got It. I’ve occasionally charged to 100% before road tripping, but only to 80% on D/C fast chargers. Now with over 34000 miles on the odometer, I’ve experienced no loss of battery capacity at all.

Also, when you charge to 100% . You get no re-gen until the battery charge drops to 80-90%;..

Great video. I have my first Ev preordered now. It’s killing me waiting… so as I drive around in my dinosaur 2020 Gmc Sierra I like to educate myself on what’s to come. Thx again for the video. I can’t wait for my Silverado Ev rst

So does this 80% rule apply only on fast charging or on 220 home charging as well?

This guy is very good. Thanks for the 80% information. I am wondering if charging at low voltages also preserves the battery a little more.

The 80% rule is mostly to help with battery longevity but mainly for batteries with significant amounts of nickel in them (NCA and MNC). However, a somewhat newer chemistry (LFP) uses iron instead of nickel. This does three things - lowers the overall energy density, significantly lowers the fire hazard and removes the 80% rule for battery health. Because of the lower energy density, the same size battery will have a shorter range but you get that back by being able to charge to 100% on a daily basis. As pointed out, the closer to 100% you get, regardless of the chemistry, the slower the charging becomes to the point that last 20% takes longer than the first 80%. For my car, I charge to 90% on a daily basis (home charging).

So here's my info. I'm an electronics tech and I've been an EV driver around the last 20 years or so. My current vehicle is my 4th ev. It's a 2012 nissan leaf with over 80,000 miles on it. Purchased it used from the dealer with 5,000 miles on it. It was a demo model, showed hard use, tires and brakes almost shot even with only 5k miles. I do an 80% charge spring through fall, 100% charge in winter due to nissan PPD. My current battery capacity is about 8 of 12 bars according to the leafs guesstimater. Puts the vehicle somewhere around 60% of original battery life. I'll probably get another 2-4 years out before my range to work requirements make a battery swap is unavoidable. Although I may just drop the battery compartment and do a conversion to LiFePO4 batteries, lower initial capacity but more stable an longer overall life. Also DIY battery gives me the opportunity to add thermal battery management. Most used leafs with the same age and mileage as mine that I have seen have around 4 battery bars (30%) life left although this is just my anecdotal experience

When to charge to 100%? I charge at home or at hotels to 100% before starting a road trip. However, helping battery life by stoping 90% may make more sense if you don't need to shorten your first charge stop. Usually the car is ready before I am, so my 100% charge is unnecessary. If I had a car with an LFP battery, I would charge to 100% once per week, and always charge to 100% before road trips.

Good video. I figured I check this out while charging my 2021 hyundai kona. Went to charge from 30% to 80% on a DC fast, time nearly doubled if I were to go the extra 10%.

I charge my Bolt to 70% (Level 2) Usually from around 35-45%. Gives me plenty of range. I could easily do with less range, but I feel my current method is better for battery life. I only charge at home (so far), and I only need to charge 2-3 times a week.

So if it says keep between 20 and 80% does that mean I have to run the battery down for 20% before I charge it back up to 80? Or can I charge it anywhere in between

Great video Carig! You're still funny as ever 🤣

what if your home charging? is it ok to charge to max? knowing that its alow charging anyways?

I heard the 80% rule years ago. I've done it with cell phones, laptops and tablets. I own a Chevy Bolt EUV and I charge it at home at 120 volts and up to 80% like my other electric devices. Time will tell. Nice video.

Good video. Love the movie analogy….

I am doing 40% ---> 70% now for routine driving and charging. I reckon I won't need to top it up from the home-charger much more often than twice per week, and only save the 100% for long country road trips 👌😃

I have an MG ZS EV Mk1 and the manual advises charging to 100% occasionally to balance the batteries. As far as I can see from the web chit chat, owners of the MGs who home charge their cars cannot find any battery degradation. Most of the time I just bounce between 55% and 80% using solar.

I have a Tesla Solar system with backup battery and I've noticed once my VW ID.4 gets up to 80% it continues to use about 8.5KWH the whole time its plugged in no matter what percentage the charge is at which I find interesting. Where does that extra power go if the charge slows down at 80%?

In comparison, regular combustion engine vehicles would need 1 or 2 refuels to make the trip. The gas stations are right next to the highway. Fill up, and grab something to eat/drink in 15 mins or less. I'm not even counting restroom breaks in either example, drive time and refuel or recharge only.

But, many cars keep their batteries in a better temperature range when parked on a level 1 or 2 plug. So, which effects battery life more, temperature or state of charge?

I believe manufactures vary in how much buffer the HV battery has in the top and bottom end. Bigger warranty may mean a bigger buffer. So 100% may not mean 100%.

Traditional lead acid batteries in gasoline & deisel vehicles work the same way at obviously lower voltages. A dead flat 12 volt battery will start charging at around 20 amps then as voltage increases the rate of charge slows to 2 amps and eventually charging will stop when battery is fully charged

Will there be a problem if EV (Ioniq5) is veing charged with 200kwh charging everytime? I heard that over heat the battery will also shorten the battery life...

I feel like this is due to manufacturers trying to make the numbers on paper look better than they really are. Instead of having a lower max range and building in the software controls to optimize battery longevity and charging speed they leave it to the consumer to figure out. If they want more of the general population to adopt EV's they need to do a better job with these types of issues.

My rav 4 prime apparently has built in buffer…. So full charge actually only fills 80% of the battery. Software won’t allow 100% charge.

A lithium ion battery is happiest at 50% when there is perfect equilibrium of ion charges between the positive and negative terminals and the least likelihood of electroplating which will permanently remove ions from circulation and thus degrade the battery. This is a chemical reaction and is a function of both heat and time. Up to 60% charge there is virtually no time based degradation. Up to 80% the amount of degradation is fairly minimal and that has been adopted by most batteries as a good compromise between function and degradation. Having said that 70% is better then 80% and 60% is better still. If you don’t need the full range as I don’t then it’s best to keep your charging in 40-60% band

I like the "theater seating" example. I've always said that it's like filling a bucket with water to the top without spilling any. You have to slow down the flow at the end.

Help!. Can't figure out how to limit my 2023 Nissan Leaf Plus to only 80% charge. Any suggestions. No, not in owner's manual.

better yet, learn the charging curve of your vehicle. some might start dropping speed at 50%, 60%... so if you can, its faster to charge more often. where i am from, a 300 mile EV shouldn't really struggle reaching the next charger. as for battery longevity, its ok to charge beyond 80% as long as you intend to use it and not just let the car sit at a high SoC for days. looking at you, company fleet managers. it might also reduce regenerative breaking which is a neat feature.

Charging at home I nearly always charge to 100% because I'm doing a long journey the next day.

Also the level number of charging matters. Level 3 heats the battery the most and heat degrades the battery. High amp level 2 compared to lower amp level 2 degrades the battery faster too, but not as bad as level 3. Level 1, very slow, prolongs the battery the most. I charge 12 amp level 1 since retired and in no hurry.

I also read once that charging to 100% once a month was a good idea to “balance” the charge across cells or something like that. Is that also true?

I charged my PHEV to 100% every day for 6 years. I lost maybe 5% battery capacity.

Great Video and information.

My 2023 Nissan Ariya has 91 kW battery but only 87 kW usable. Nissan does not state that the battery should be charge to 80% rule. With the 4 kW buffer, i usually charge to 95%. Good or bad?

Hyundai ioniq 5 dealer says: max 80% on DC, 100% everyday on AC (11kw) is totally fine. Any thoughts on that?

The important time spent charging is 10 seconds which is how long it takes me every couple of days, compared to a 10 minute drive to the gas station every week. 51 weeks = 510 minutes filling up per year or 8.5 hours water. When I take a couple of weeks for road trips and have to recharge, I always spend more time in restroom and in line to buy a snack than charging. If you have a driveway or garage BEV is the way to go, if you don't then BEV vs ICE is a more complicated decision.

I drive a 2020 Kia Niro EV and currently have 50k miles. I financed the car April 2021 and I charge to 100% at electrify America stations. I have a one car in the household so I drive a lot. I haven’t noticed any range difference from when I bought it new. I charge my car twice a week.

One of the things that electric vehicles range is it you really shouldn't be using above 80% or below 10%. Drop the range estimate significantly. For example your 250 mi range really isn't 250 it's 200 if you go to the 80% number unless if you also drop below the 10% number. That would be on a flat road, not carrying a load combo, a decent ambient temperature, and driving at an optimum speed. I'm not sure how that would change with regenerative breaking on non-flat surfaces.

My new 2022 Nissan Leaf plus charges to 100% overnight when I plug into a level 2 outlet in my garage. I have no way to set it to less than 80%. I only charge when the battery is 50% or less. What are your thoughts on this?

Aren't you supposed to charge to 100% every few charge cycles to allow the BMS to balance the batteries?

80% depends on the battery type. A iron based LFP can charge to 100% all day all the time. But on public chargers the time slows when fast charging so 80% is faster and fine.

My plug in hybrid has such a small battery that charging to 80% won't get me very far before combustion starts. 😊

I have an older Tesla Model S. I charge it to 90 percent and have little battery degradation. But I agree that 100 percent is not a good idea. But Ive heard the new cheap LPF batteries can be fully charged all the time so check which battery you have. This only applies to a 3 at this time I think but it will expand. Range anxiety is for real though. The big failure of the EV;s is when you go 80 or above. Range drops like a rock. 70 is OK though but it hurts watching cars zip by you. Here in FL 80 is just plain normal these days.

Wow, I am still an ICE owner but, lets see. So, I get an EV with like 240 miles (tesla model Y for example), So, 80% of charge, that is around 190 miles, and now it's winter and is -5 degrees out. So, not want, NEED heat. Take away -41% and that brings it down to around 114 miles of range. Now, EV range is based on how you drive, if you on the highway locked at 65mph, you might get close to 114 but, if you deal with "the moron factor" people not knowing how to drive, passing morons etc. You will get like 75-80 miles out of that EV in the winter depending on how aggressive you drive. Most EV drivers I see on the highway are locked at 65 and will cause traffic problems in the morning. With a lot reading I have done about EV range, it's not exactly like ICE cars, you go 80 instead of 65, you pay big time. ICE cars, normally you know where you stand, I have 400 miles on a fill up on my daily driver, I know if drive aggressively, that will be around 375-390 miles I get out of it. The numbers are there and tested. So based on what my daily gets in range, around 400 miles, for an EV to get same range, in WINTER and summer, with the 80% figure, it would need to be around 750 miles of range to factor in all that (so I can have A/C in the summer, and heat in the winter). By the Way, the biggest one, I think the Lucid Air, is around 550 miles. EVs are not fully ready to replace an ICE car in my eyes. Not going to pay MORE for less (ICE car vs. EV and milage in all cases I stated). They have a long way to go....

Isn't LFP battery like in MG4 capable of charging 100%?

Good video, but it seems the 80% rule is slowly falling to the wayside in favor of 90%. Even the Polestar 2 that you have in the video, now recommends 90% and fast charges reasonably quick to 90% after more recent software updates. Though it still ramps down steadily above 60%, but over 90% is now the REAL drop off in speed. The concern over battery health/longevity seems to have been overly conservative early on, and now that there are more and more EVs out there, it seems the difference between 80% and 90% is negligible. Probably more important is the number of charge cycles done with DC fast charging vs. AC trickle charging, rather than whether the stopping point is 80 or 90%.

EVs charge the same way you fill a large tire with air. At first the air flows easily into the tire. But the closer you get to full. The more pressure is created. The slower the air flows. Of course the physics are completely different.

With Lithium iron phosphate battery it is better to avoid a deep discharge. And home charger with 3.5 KW charger the charging speed doesn't drop significanty. Avoiding fast charging is the best way to save your battery.

From what i've heard EV manufactureres already soft limit the charge to 90% to increase battery life, and is that rule Pplied to all battery technologies?

LFP batteries can be charged up to 100% over 1500 cycles without degradation , at 2000 full cycles degradation reach 3-4% it means you can do easy 350k miles range with minimal degradation

Why only 80%? Why can't you charge to 100%? This was a interesting video I have a eye on city transformer ev with a range of 111miles I wonder if I'll get the same range on a 80% charge why doss it take alot longer to get to 100 after 80%

I've charged my Model S to 90% every day for the past 4 years. Degradation is only 3% at 116kkms.

The battery’s cathode/anode expands and contracts as it get to be charged and discharged. The repeated expansion/contraction between 100 and 0 charge level due to daily charging degrade the battery life.

I like the airplane seating analogy personally, but essentially the same. Combined with the 80%, seems like there’s always the city vs highway range factor too so that theoretical 240 might be less still if you’re road-tripping. I wish Apple would allow 80% charging for its phones too. I tend to keep phones at least a few years and it grows tiring trying to constantly take on and off a charger to limit the fill myself.

Und warum ist unter 20% und über 80% nicht gut? Weil sich die Graphide Adode dann stark ausdehnt oder zusammenzieht und somit Risse entstehen können und Lithium Dendriten abbrechen können.

A battery has internal resistance. The “effective” charge resistance is lower in value when the battery is lower in voltage compared to the charger source voltage. The battery charger has a source current limit along with regulated voltage. When the charger is connected to the battery and the battery is low in power the battery will demand more current to be charged. This is because the battery has a lower “effective” resistance value. As the battery becomes charged the difference between the battery voltage and the charge voltage becomes smaller. This in turn lowers the current being demanded from the charger. The charge rate will slow down. The charge rate speed is not linear. It follows an exponential logarithmic rate. The log rate is 2.71828. Along with this in side of the vehicle is a charging manager circuit. This circuit uses a micro controller along with software to manage it. It senses current, voltage, and temperature. The battery manager circuit is designed to slow down the charge rate if the battery becomes too warm. It also slows down the charge rate if the battery appears to be approaching full charge. This is to help keep the battery system cooler. If you were to have a current meter installed in to the charging system you would see when the battery is near to depleted the charge current will be high. As the battery charge level goes up the current will drop. If you were to log the rate of drop over time you would see the rate of charge vs time would be declining more rapidly as full charge is approached. The demand of only charging to 80% is really to keep the temperature of the electrodes lower and to prevent over saturating of the battery chemistry. Using an 80% charge is more of a theoretical process than actual. When limiting the range or depth of charge cycles this will increase battery life. If you run a battery down to empty and fully charge it back up, over time the number of acceptable charge cycles will be reduced. The number of rated charge cycles on a battery from most manufactures is rated from 20% to 100%. If you are charging at 60% for example, you would probably have about double the available amount of charge cycles. Even though your phone uses a Lithium-ION battery, it is not the same technology as the battery used in an EV. They are based on a different type of design even though they are both using Lithium-ION chemistry in their technology.

Yes, time can be a factor, but charging to over 80% no oknger really impacts the lingevity of the battey, i mean over 10 years, it might add 0.1% to how much it degrades, seriously in something like the Ioniq 5 it wint even be a blip. Also, in the Ioniq 5, they had some bad chargers, in mine if I go to a 350kw EvGo station and wait until it hits 80% and get out of my car, by the time i am unplugging, it is at 85%. This car is a charging beast and amazing in road trips. Incidentally, one day, i was eating while charging and thencar reached 80% and I was still eating, so i ket it continue, then it was so close to 100% that infigured i would ket it finish. 80% to 100% only took about another 15 minutes. Now, that is still substantially slower than the first 70%, but still pretty good. As for the 80% rule, Hyundai does recommend charging to 100% AT LEAST once a month in the manual. So, it should be noted the 80% rule doesnt always hold true anymore. Now, there are times where yoybdint want to charge iver 80%: If you are at the tip of a steep grade, especially if it is a long one, as you will end up riding your mechanical brakes since tegen braking will do nothing st thet point. If you arent going to be driving the car eniugh to get it under 80% in the next 24 hours or so.

Hey people, can I ask a very important question here? I'm anxious to get really good informed opinion on this because unfortunately living in Southwest, (specifically Las Vegas) we are more vulnerable to our EV's being permanately damaged right? Well that's my question, does level 2 charging and driving my EV (even if it's liquid cooled with proper thermal management) irrevocably compromise the long term battery range of the battery when the car is charging at night and it's still 85 degrees? I know I should expect less range in the summer, but does driving the car in 100 plus temperatures from May until late August, actually permanately shorten the battery's lifespan , or is driving the car in these temperatures and charging the car during these warm to severe hot summer months, going to have only a ''summer impact'' and when the temperatures cool in the non summer months, I won't see any permanent loss of range over time? I wish there was consistent opinions out there, when I ask this question, but there isn't,

1:16 Accurate number, in Summer, yes. In fall, winter and spring (at least those we got here in northern Euorpe) - not so much.

Yes, I always fill my gas tank to 80% capacity to make the gas tank last longer.

What about the reason not to let it go below 10%?

I do own such an amazing charging monster....an ioniq 5, First. Hyundai tells the battery is 100%....but technically it is NOT. The car just stops charging earlier. Done for prolonging life. second. When I really need to fast charge (only on longer trips, I also need to "recharge " myself...in other words a sanitair stop, coffee ans something to eat. I limit my fastcharging mostly at 90% because the car charges faster than I do myself. When returning to the car I stop the charge, maybe 85% , maybe 88%. (and the ioniq 5 keeps charging more than 100KW until 87% except a one minute stop for balancing the battery at 82%.) When we look to the TeslaS (p85) charge curve it's optimum for driving long distances is charging to 50% only. from nearly empty (with preconditioned battery of coarse) This because that car has another charge curve...starting fast and continuously slowing down.

Why not have batterie changing stations instead of charging stations?

What he doesn’t mention is that there are not enough charging ports around the country. You have to purchase your own charging port to have one at home which is about $1500. The free, charging ports they have it parks, constantly consume with people that all electric cars charging their vehicles constantly.

i thought the rule was 85% for lithium batteries, in general, to reduce an extreme amount dendrite build up within the battery. must be different for EV's with a high torque, high draw demand, electric engine.

This is true for any Lithium battery system.

I've been driving ICE cars for the best part of 40 years, and I have never had to worry about filling the tank up to 100% full or running it down to virtually empty.... I've done this thousands of times, and I can't ever remember the engine or fuel tank blowing up 🤣 or my range decreasing 😂 And the first litre goes in the same speed as a last litre (and every litre in between) 🤣🤣🤣

Question: How low should you let the charge drop to. If 100% is for long trips, occasionally and 80% is for daily trips, doesn’t the ioniq 5 refuse to restart, after it drops below 30%. So, what range was that 30% that you won’t use amount to? How far does staying between 30 - 80% get you in miles?

2:10 SHELL STATION IN MALAYSIA DETECTED. HI THERE!

Chevy bolt adjusted for that for you and just limited

Not even mentioning that it costs more charging to 100 percent because you can't recuperate when on or near 100 percent.

One year later... It doesn't really apply anymore to the new LFP blade batteries. You charge them to 100% with no damage. And if you had only known back then about sodium ion batteries...

There are EV owners who have only ever Rapid charged to 100% and suffered no notable ill effect. The conditions affecting battery degradation are more nuanced than just keeping your battery to 80%. The only REAL benefit of charging to 80% is time saving. If you don't absolutely need that extra 20% (and these days most people really don't) then you never need to charge above 80% when the rate slows right down. Most modern EVs can go at least 120 miles on an 80% charge. You're better off plugging into a 3kw or 7kw charger and going away and doing something else for an hour if you really want to fill in that last 20%.

LFP is 100% anytime you want.

Smart money is buying a battery that far exceeds your range - charge from 20% to 80% rapidly, and that 60% is all you ever need!

No one speaks to the etiquette of using a charger for an additional hour for a measly 20% from 80 to 100%

6:05 Well, punishing batteries with charge rates of 200+ kW doesn't exactly prolong battery life either, and no one seems to care :D

That’s just the same as mobile phones/devices the last bit take longer to charge.

wireless charging at 70% efficiency?

some cars are better than other at this... Hyundai Iconiq fro example is rated at 38kw... in actual fact the battery is around 40-41, just by default your not allowed to access as a consumer that part of the battery to keep the health up

I know this video is mostly about pure BEVs, so maybe it's reasonable there. It's just my plug-in hybrid only has 13.2Kwh battery. If I'm gonna charge it to 80%, it will lose such valuable few miles of electrical range and will turn financially pointless.

Honestly though the only time anyone needs to charge to 100% is the next day when they are about to leave in a trip. Giving them the full range to drive until they have 80% in their battery.

I top it off to 100% and drain it to nearly 0% in the hope my battery capacity will hit below 70%. That way, I can get a brand-new battery.

Great video i hate electric cars i got stranded not being able to find a port

If the minimum is 10% and 80% the highest, you leave out 30% capacity and the real world consumption does not match estimated range supplied by manufacturers, even worse in winter 😂

I charge about 15% to 85% and it takes about 25m on L3 SC. Pretty good. The last 15% will take another 25m easily but not worth it. Only when starting from home on long commute I charge to 100% then do the 15%-82% to 85%. This keeps the breaks nice and about 22m or so which is perfect to eat and stretch your legs by walking around for about a mile and resuming driving

The most optimal is 65-75%

True for normal battery packs but the newer LFP batteries can charge up to 100% daily!

I thought the 80% rule was the proportion of the electric power at the other end of the cable generated by burning fossil fuel. 20% renewables: 80% from oil and gas.

So, eg, say an ev range has a miserable 250 miles on a full charge, but you don't full charge to 100%...so the range is less... Marvellous

DO NOT KEEP ON PLUGGING IT IN! TESLA will tell you this and that, as they want your business again after some years. The perfect way is to keep you BATTERY CHARGE BETWEEN 30% - 70%, and charge it to 90% - 100% when you’re going for a long Road Trip, period. (I own Tesla S & X, and I’m an Electrical Engineer)

My friend rented a Tesla for a trip Dayton Ohio to Destin Florida. That is normally a 12 hour drive one way. However, he had to stop 5 times to charge with an average charge time of 1 hour. That's finding a charge station, which are NOT right next to a highway. 45 mins average charge time, and drive back to the highway. Altogether adding over 5 hours to the trip. What was 12 hours became 17.5 hours one way. Did the car drive and perform well, yes. Was it comfortable? No. Seats sucked. You decide.