A friend of mine would say, there's 8 billion people and 16 billion opinions.

Brilliant dont change anything

I beg your pardon, I'm UKposts certified! (Insert sarcasm here)😂😂

I appreciate that! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

@@hendrickswart4122 , Dude, ain’t that the truth! I’m not anywhere close to knowing a fraction of what the maritime community should or should not do in these circumstances. But, I know enough to keep my mouth shut and try to learn from those who actually do it. I like that “8 billion people/16 billion opinions” comment. I’m gonna remember that!

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I couldn’t agree more. Doesn’t it seem like so many people are suddenly experts? They seem to refuse to accept the knowledge of someone who has worked in a given field for decades.

I agree! Thanks Tim for your very common sense questions and answers.

Outstanding Mellissa! Thank you for watching! Thank you for Supporting! Thank you for being such a great part of the channel! CUOTO

I am an engineer too. Boats without safety integrity level to not damage critical infrastructure should be not allowed. ITs cheaper than anything else to not allow a single big boat in the channel unless they have 2 or even 4 back up systems and unhackable computers.....ONLY THEN will they be allowed without tugs and very very slow speed...so stop being stupid

@@davidgarrett7673 being an engineer why did you mention "unhackable computers". You of all people should know that there are no systems that are "Unhackable"

WE HAVE multiple back up instruments on critical loops on a nuclear reactor. They must have multiple controllers ..several levels of backup. STOP ALLOWING CHEAP chinese hackable crap run through our critical insfrastructure. IT DOES NOT COST THAT MUCH....COMPARED to whats happening now. These cheap crap ships should not be allowed if they are millions of pounds of weight loaded as they are basically nuclear level force running at 8-10 knots. STOP BEING STUPID

1 hundred thousand tons at 5 or 7 knots with two tractor tugs would take probably a half mile to change that ship’s direction slightly and maybe a mile to totally stop the ship ? And all that depends on current, tide,wind.

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MV Dahli is a case of do as I say and not as I do. Don't worry about...it just they require in other harbors using "US Federal Law" (50+ plus years in CA) other than the Beltway Bandit States...PS...They are short changing you in terms of pay if you have not figure it out.

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Oh come on it’s only 100K tons going 9mph, if they had a few concrete pillars, they would have been able to stop the ship dead in its tracks. /s

Or at least deflect it.@@qwerty112311

@@qwerty112311Thats the most dumbass statement I've read so far.

Hay Tim thanks for your clear and consistent answers, that said what’s happening with your current barge?

Very True! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

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If that's the case, wtf were they allowed to be built? between your comment and the video's doubts about existing tugs cannot handle the job, then these ships should not be allowed in such tight waterways!

@@Ujeb08 Do you have any idea how many ships are in US ports on any given day? What you are suggesting is like taking all the cars in the US off of the road and only allowing them on one at a time and then only allowing that car to go 20 MPH because of the number of accidents. This was a freak, tragic accident that occurred amidst thousands of vessel movements daily. Why do you hear about a single plane crash and not the thousands of car accidents daily that kill 43 people EVERY SINGLE DAY in the US? Because they are more spectacular. Grow up.

​@@ronobrien7187It's like I said to somebody elsewhere, those ideas that pop into our minds when we're sitting down and unburdening ourselves probably aren't the foolproof, commonsense solutions to all the world's problems that we take them to be. Details, details... I really only commented to say that I think we just just share the same ethnic handicap.

​@@ronobrien7187Oh, and sometimes the mailman bites dog. If you're not familiar with the Windoc Bridge 11 collision, I recommend you looking the video up here on UKposts. It happened in a part of the world where I once spent a great deal of time.

Apparently most car collusions happen within 5km (miles) from people's houses. Luckily we don't know wasn't waiting.

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@@hendrickswart4122 i;ve heard that a lot as well. when people are in there neighbourhood area they get complacent because everything is so familiar.

😂😂😂😂 I love that! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

I grew up in the age of falz-flgs! The best ppl to interpret large-scale "accidents" are those that don't buy into the "official" story!🤣

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AFAIK on SF Bay a tug leashed to the stern is only required on tankers. Tugs aren't needed because once underway the ships have no trouble steering under the bridges. The speed limit for ships is 15kts through the water though they're usually a bit slower than that.

@@lance31415 thanks for the clarity, I have been riding ferries and my sail boat on the bay for years and just reporting on what I see going on. I did not notice that thy are tied to the tankers will have to pay more attention, thanks again

You were perfectly clear Capt! I don't see what their problem is. SUOTO

I took the sunset tour of Alcatraz, under the Golden Gate and back into Sausilito. Those cassions around the towers are huge but I could see a big container ship running atop them. I hope they reinforced it. You never think that something that large will come near those towers.. at most a ferry or a barge and it wasn’t until a couple of days ago that I gave it any thought.

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😂😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

They need to make trains that can swerve if they’re unable to stop.

And Biden commuted every day on those train tracks over that bridge…oh wait, it didn’t have tracks

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I have been preaching the shades of gray for a long time with little success. All I get is "if you just_____" it will a work perfectly.

You mean, Sal, the "expert" who's never willing to see the hand of intell-agencies behind anything?

That's okay, probably the same crowd who share social media hoaxes because "Even if it isn't true it still might help someone." Yes, that has actually been said to me. More than twice.

@@scottfw7169when people say that I always wonder if they are actually that stupid or if they're maliciously spreading false information. I think normally it's just extreme stupidity and ignorance.

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They didn’t need to stop them, just redirect them, which 3 tugs could have likely done.

@@Ranman1 the experts, and particularly Tug captains, say otherwise. In a 3 tug setup one would be astern. At 8 knots the port and starboard tug are nearly useless due to risk of capsizing, so the astern tug would act as a braking force. Keep in mind it’s only a 5,000hp tug vs a 55,000 hp ship. The tug astern would not be able to stop it in time. Additionally the port tug would have needed to move around to the opposite side, basically by the time it got in position the ship would have impacted the pier. That leaves the starboard tug, but at 8 knots it has very little lateral potential as most of its energy is being expended maintaining 8 knots. The minimal lateral force it could have applied to the ship is not even enough to counteract the hard over rider - let alone change the ships course. So, of the 3 theoretical tugs only one would be marginally useful but would not have altered the events. Additionally as myself and others have broken down the cost of accompanying every ship past the bay bridge would be astronomical - we’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I’ve broken down the math for each ship but didn’t extrapolate out for the annual port traffic. In short, the tug experts agree (as well as anyone that can do basic math) 2 or even 3 tugs could not have altered the outcome here given how close to the bridge the failure was and all the other factors that played a part (wind, current, opposing channel, etc etc) This ship impacted with the force of a fully fueled Saturn V rocket at launch. Think about that…..that absolutely massive rocket that took men to the moon focusing all its energy on a single bridge leg. It’s an incomprehensible force. Someone else calculated it’s the same energy as SIXTEEN fully fueled wide body let’s crashing into the same bridge all at once. There’s no way on earth 3 tugs can counteract a Saturn V rocket or 16 crashing Boeing 767s. The math is the math. The core problem here is similar to the Titanic - by the time the iceberg was spotted it was too late to stop the ship because she was going too fast. The cards had been dealt. Final thought, let’s pretend for a minute the ship didn’t lose power - the only thing that failed was the rudder and it went hard over. EVEN IF they had immediately worked to put the engine in reverse aka crash stop they would not have come close to stopping as a ship like this under the best circumstances takes over a mile to stop in an emergency. Because the engine and propeller are directly linked the shaft and main engine most be stopped so they can then be put in reverse. TLDR, this massive ship with a 55,000 horsepower engine could not have stopped in time. It’s common sense that a 5,000hp tug is not more powerful when it’s literally tiny compared to a fully loaded cargo ship. The math doesn’t lie. It’s like you’re saying a human has the power to stop a car going 80mph with their bare hands.

Now there's a good point.

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I was thinking the same thing when he mentioned it...I was waiting for Tim to say the Dali is way heavier when loaded......

I didn't want to stretch the example out more than it was needed. But yes! You are absolutely correct! Thank you for watching. CUOTO

The Dali as 107,000 tons. A carrier is just over 100,000 tons.

Thank you very much Ed! CUOTO

💯!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

Probably could have prevented the Exxon Valdez disaster if you were around back then?

Yep! Just like Tim says… after a major accident regulation comes along. We have 5 Escort Tugs and (4)6000 HP general purpose Tugs and handle on average about 7 tankers per week. Sometimes more.. I couldn’t imagine the number of escort tugboats that would be required to safely escort the volume of shipping that comes in and out of that port and the distance it would take for them to travel to the Sea Buoy …. as Tim said there are more than just one bridge on the way out of town. We escort the oil tankers approximately 62 miles to sea and that normally takes around 14 hours for the round-trip if the weather is perfect.

How far do you travel before stopping? Curious and thanks in advance.

@@timpetta2974 It’s about 132 miles round trip. Average 10 knots . So with the actual Undocking Maneuvers about 15-16 hours for the whole evolution. That’s with good weather

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I run a 6000 HP tractor escort tug in Eastern Canada and have been doing so for many years so am not just talking through my hat..

Isn’t that one of the main purposes of an escort tug, steering the ship if it needs help or something happens.

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Woohoo! We found one! 😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

Yea great lots of laughts who was that masked man !

😂😂😂😂😂 💯!!!!!! Truth!!!!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

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everyone is a Monday morning quarterback

It’s all bullshit the politicians introduce bills to they say improve a issue but by the time they finish bullshitting we are all tired of hearing it and all they do is eat up time till there re-election maybe

​@@richardhiggins9856exactly these people never do videos if there's never an accident how come they don't talk about this before the accident

I love watching ‘the general public’ being interviewed after a level Xing accident saying, “I waved at the train to stop, but it didn’t!” I’ve even been asked why the train didn’t swerve! 😳😂

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And yet, according to the Box audio recorder line by line, one of the several last things that the Pilot or Junior Pilot did was call the tug boats back.

​@@revizionaryenterprises9655In a desperate attempt to avoid disaster, they tried anything and everything

@@revizionaryenterprises9655 You want all available assets when things go wrong. Even for recovery.

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Been here for a while .. @@TimBatSea

💯!!!! Guilty as charged! 😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

Thank you. I appreciate that. CUOTO

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Thank you very much! CUOTO

Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel Cap. CUOTO

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Thank you for watching. But we have the engines for just that reason. Well, one if the reasons. CUOTO

😂😂😂 Thank you very much for that. CUOTO

Thank you very much for watching Eddie! CUOTO

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Agreed 💯. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

They think that spending hours everyday tugging themselves to the internet makes them tugging experts.

😂😂😂 💯Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

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Thank you very much Larry! CUOTO

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I have asked this elsewhere and it’s a genuine question. If you had an escort tug, connected astern, would it have had the manoeuvring room to be of assistance? By this I mean depth of water out of the channel and the close at hand presence of the dolphins protecting the HV power pylons?

@@DB-thats-me I won't speak for DB, but I'm a 25 year Senior Deck Officer. Escort Tugs running alongside the ship would have been useless. As Tim said, the tugs are already getting close to their max speed so they'd have to use most of their propulsion just to keep up with the ship. Any pushing power would have been greatly reduced. Now a tether tug is another story. Yes, there was enough room for any tether tug to operate behind the ship. All ships have a heavy duty choke on the stern for this purpose. That tethered tug could have assisted in two ways. They could either, back down trying to slow the ship or push ahead and try to steer the ship. I've actually seen both of these scenarios in action. By backing down to try to slow/stop the ship, this could have given the ship's bridge team more time for decision making. With more time, they might have decided to ground her. But, there was no way they were going to stop that ship in time. One of our Captains decided to ground his ship in the Houston ship channel after they lost power. The Houston Ship Channel is notorious for being very narrow. In fact, ship's going in opposite directions have to do a maneuver called the 'Texas Chicken' to pass each other. Since he was unable to perform that maneuver, he took her outside the channel and ran her aground. Or, the tether tug could have been on a short tether and in an emergency, they could push against the stern of the ship and essentially act as the ship's rudder. But, as Tim said, any tug would have been close to its top speed. So how effective would they have been at that speed is the question. I hope this answers your question.

The main problem is that escort tugs can't do anything quickly to a 100,000 ton ship that's moving at 9 knots. That's not what they're designed to do. They're designed to nudge ships in and out berths in and out of the channel and point the ship in the right direction. When leaving berths and put into the channel, the ship then fires up its engines and gets sufficient speed to have rudder authority, at which point it's on its own. Those speeds are beyond the effective speed of a tugboat, meaning that you'd have to move the ship through the channel much slower for tugboats to have any purpose.

@@MrMinnesotaMac yup I’m aware of these manoeuvres, including the Texas Chicken, but it wasn’t the one I was thinking of. I’ll describe it because everywhere seem have a different name for it. It’s where a specifically designed escort tug, tethered through the stern midship fairlead, ‘drives’ out, perpendicular to the stern thus entering the indirect towing position. There’s a great post from 10years ago of a tug ‘washing the deck’ as they aggressively enter the position. I suspect, even if this was utilised, the heading might be altered but the COG would remain unchanged. Hitting the pier on the port quarter. Again, worst time, worst place, worst outcome. Thank you for your time. 👍

​@@DB-thats-methe answer is subjective- but with no assist the answer is collision I think there is a very real possibility a minor course correction @ 1st blackout could make a difference

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Dali is just about the same size as his - Panamax. There are container ships over three times that size.

@@richardreid6377 The Dali is Neopanamax, which is for the new locks that began operation in 2016. My dad's old ship was the old Panamax. Dali is approx 10,000 TEU compared to my fathers 4258. The Mari also weights about 40,000 tons more empty than the Quality. Most pics I see of my dad's boat, containers are stacked 4 high at MOST over the deck. I see some pics of the Dali where they are stacked 7 high. Physical size, Dali is about 10 meters longer and 16 meters wider.

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💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO

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Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel Brandon. CUOTO

I also read it's the equivalent of 150kg of high explosive hitting the bridge pier.

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I agree with your math, however I do have a question. If tugs were adjacent to the vessel at the moment it deviated from the center of channel, would the tug have sufficient effect to keep the ship centered.

It isn't about stopping...it's guiding the direction.

@@johnduffy532A tug couldn't have "guided" the ship. The problem is the ship was going 7 knots. If a tug hit the side of the ship and pushed, the tug would suddenly be going 7 knots sideways and tug boats don't do well at 7 knots going sideways. If it tried pulling, the same thing happens. No matter how you hook them together, it isn't

Check out what an azimuth drive tug can Do- They can thrust laterally absoultely

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@@johng.gunning4913Can the azimuth handle being pointed at a right angle to a 7 knot progress? I would expect a Voith Schneider Propeller might be the better choice.

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We live in a time when clear, rational thinking is *very* unpopular. Your opinion as somebody who's actually been in charge of moving some kind of vessel is just as good as mine as just some random guy from the internet. Why? Because feelings... Feelings don't really keep bridges from being taken out, do they?

😂😂😂😂😂 Thank you very much for that! CUOTO

Add to the simulation the bank effect from the splitting channel and the full astern order which turns the stern to port and let us know if a 100k vessel without propulsion can be steered through the bridge by one tug fast at CL aft or quarter. Each port has its own unique features and tricks. I witness very few pilots in the world keeping a tug fast at 8 kn or close to the tug’s max speed since is very dangerous for the tug. You know that if you don’t have speed its hard to turn or maintain the intended course. You need speed to steer the vessel without propulsion (for this size more than 11-12 kn). Tug escort without the lines fast is another thing and not a bad idea. A 70 t asd tug is not so common in the world, even it should be. You have nice port infrastructure and services in NZ.

Thank you for watching Cap! I don't doubt you. But I'm really trying to only speak about what I've done or seen. CUOTO

@@TimBatSea no problem Tim (my name is Dale - user name is my wife) we have done a lot of simulator work following a lost power incident with a fully loaded log ship a few years back and have had great results keeping the vessel in the channel with tug assist aft, we have also carried out real life drills by initiating and checking turns within our channel. We now escort almost every vessel through the tricky part of our pilotage. Our ASD tugs are not the perfect machine for this, tractor tugs or Voiths are more effective at speed due to the ability to make an indirect tow. I remember from my early days training someone pointed out to me why to use the tug aft when underway - ‘pivot point is well forward, that’s why they put the rudder at the stern!’ I agree with you in the fact that it’s definitely an added cost but when lives are at risk and massive massive infrastructure (bridges, terminals, moored vessels etc) it’s something authorities and port operators will need to address. Keep up the good work!

Thank you very much for that! I appreciate it! CUOTO

Thank you very much Dr Sal! CUOTO

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You are correct. I misspoke. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO

Thank you very much Magnus. CUOTO

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Entering port, yes. Leaving port, as the dali was, is a different story. 2 tugs did move it out of dock, dali was up to speed, the tugs left, then dali lost steerage.

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At 7-8 knots, this ship had steerage way. The loss of power (and therefore loss of control) caused the problem. Tugs moving the ship past the bridge would be doing so at slower speed - longer transit times, more tugs required, more congestion. Far more cost effective (in terms of $, man hours, and general safety) to add updated protection to bridge piers around shipping channels. Scale matters. So does distance.

Don't be so sure. The suction effect from the channel combined with the wind on such a huge sail is immense. I'm sure the NTBS will find competent people to run a simulation and we'll see.

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Thank you very much for watching Monk. Always a pleasure hearing from you. CUOTO

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