me either

Mmmmmmm, so that's what the little me has in the back pockets, go figure.

Fewer friends means less weight #nofriends /s

not really..I learned more in the comments..Shane never explains anything with a decent analogy

Many Zwift users aren't technically minded and can't wrap their heads around the fact that Trainer Difficulty actually only modifies the behavior of the smart trainer and not the in-game physics. I recently argued with someone who was adamant that he could descend faster with 100% Trainer Difficulty vs a lower setting even though you and I both know that it's easier to power down a descent when a -10% grade feels like -2.5% (50% TD) vs when it feels like 10% (100% TD) and we are spinning out in our tallest gear combination.

in zwift 50% difficulty i can go uphill at 17kph to 21kph on a 12% gradience for 40mins , in real world 12% gradience i can only do 11kph - 15kph for 40mins , just saying 🤔

i believe so.. i tried it so in less difficulty i felt like i have to pedal more (probably more cadence) to get the same speed/power... i felt like a turtle. when i set it full difficulty i felt like my pedal stroke were more and best representative “in” the game im not agree with this is only a matter of trainer feeling...

@@saijapz16 You can't compare the real world and zwift directly. That has nothing to do with trainer difficulty. It's more a function of wind resistance probably. No matter where you set that slider you're going to get the same result on zwift. You'll just be in different gears and shift less.

My thoughts also. This is why segments and kom's are legit regardless of you setting.

what are smart rollers?

@@Mixedbydavey rollers with adjustable resistance unit - see insideride.com

Thanks for this helps my head... I’m running 100% and I’ve avoided the alp because I think I’ll run out of gears. I’ll give it a shot and turn it down 👍

I use it at 1/4 for races just so there is some shifting but I agree in that if I'm riding on a trainer and racing I don't want to have to shift 4 cogs up and down especially since the bike I use on the trainer has down tube shifters. For regular riding I set it at 1/2. It feels just as realistic to your legs no matter where you set it. It's only your shift hand that feels the difference.

I use to set 100% for everything but in case of very hard climb (like Alpe du Zwift) the perception is much harder than in the real world because you cannot swing the bike helping your legs with the higher part of the body (in particular when you are not sitting). Personally I think that 85-90% is a more precise approximation of the real effort substained by the legs.

@@mashiro84 With the way the trainer difficulty works, you could always change down a gear to get the same affect.

@@chrisgraham6031 When you are ascending the Alpe de Zwift or the final part to the antenna of the Epic KOM maybe you are pushing on the last gear of the cassette. My 34/28 at 65RPM on 14% is very challenging without swinging the bike.

I use the Tacx Neo T2 and with TD at 0%, it certainly does not feel like a dumb trainer at all. There is indeed resistance felt and it changes with the gradient. Since I will naturally want to maintain a reasonable speed when going uphill, the increased work needed comes when I have to increase my cadence to counter the higher resistance. And all these happens without me shifting my gears at all (I typically leave it at the 2nd or 3rd smallest on the back, and the big front for the entire ride).

My card flip? Or just Zwift in general? Either way, I agree. :)

Shane Miller - GPLama The flipping thing! It was kinda Max Headroomish if you’re old enough to know what that means!

@@moodtherapist Ma-Ma-Ma-Max H-H-Headroom!

Mariz 650 thought the same

Wrong. It will impact how your legs feel the effort, your cadence will be lower and lactate will rise faster. Less than 100% is just not the real life.

@@NoName-nu4vr less than 100% means you're in a lower gear

This is taken from the Wahoo app and inserted into the video later on.

That was done after recording with another tool. It's not possible in-game.

Shane Miller - GPLama Gotcha Mate. Thx.

Im on a Kickr snap so you're saying the 50% would be better? If Im being perfectly honest when I switch gears to adapt to the grade change my avatar will slow down very unrealistically harshly and slowly compared to real life. What you just described sounds more realistic but I dont want to damage my training effect. Thanks

@@morganowens1359 I have a tacx vortex, it has a limit, as do all trainers, to the amount of watts it can deal with. Additionally trainers can deal with the watts easier at higher speeds than lower speeds. There will also be differences due to the manufacturers internal designs. My vortex will probably handle 500w when I am spinning comfortably, but if I am mashing the pedals at 4mph neither the vortex or my rear tire will be happy with 500w. Each machine might have different nuances in how it deals with rates of change of load with varying wheel/ hub speed . Without having numerous devices side by side it will be difficult to say if we are all riding on an even playing field. That said, as long as the number coming out of your trainer in terms of power is accurate, your avatar should progress the same as anyone elses in zwift... with the same body/bike metrics.

If you have the slider set to 100% you just have to shift up to maintain watts.

Agreed and discussed on a recent episode of the ZwiftCast podcast I'm on.

The Trainer Difficulty setting has no impact on ERG mode.

This difference could be related to your weight and the protocol you use to connect. If you're using Bluetooth and haven't set that within the Elite MyETraining app, it will be way off if you're well either side of 75kg.

Yes.

Not to the FIT file. Likely there’s logging of this in the Zwift application log.

Level 42 unlocks this kit.

@@gplama I've got to put a lot of hours to get there 💪🏻😅

Gosh not only the 80s masters of slap bass jazz funk but also the key to style in Zwift! No doubt some Lessons in Love will come in handy as well...

And not all trainers give the same experience on a given setting; on my Elite Drivo2, 100% setting means a crazy amount of shifting as the changes are so large and abrupt. On a Neo for example, this is less the case. Set it to whatever feels best for what you want to do.

I agree with you, but I don't think most people understand that fact. Setting the difficulty to 100 ONLY means you have to change gears more often.

@@AB-fh9zh Agreed I have the Elite Drivo and at %100 the hills kick in like crazy meaning having to shift or you won't be able to turn the pedals lol.

Oh yea and at the %100 setting meaning you have to shift more on the hills means its harder 🤷‍♂️

Rides of Japan 100% difficulty hills pull out your power to move 0% manage your power by your self to move on the hills

If you do not want to stress your knees then STOP low cadence riding. There is no reason to do 60 rpm uphill even in real life outside!

@@delkim3691 Sure, so pick a climbing cadence number that works for you and set difficulty accordingly. That was my absolute minimum while climbing only. I'm a mountain biker so I tend to mash anyway :)

@@fattiredbiker4012 SPIN TO WIN ! 90+ Cadence.

BK CheZ Thanks for the advice. So sure, put whatever cadence number you want in there, my point was an approach to set trainer difficulty based on whatever your lowest desired cadence is, in the lowest gear you want to shift to while climbing a significant extended climb.

This is exactly how I use the feature. I typically change the difficulty setting before every ride depending on which course I've selected. I like to have gear and cadence flexibility.

Turning it down does NOT make the Alpe flat!!! You still have to make the same power to make the avatar a given speed.

Yes

Dosen't feel that way. I find that at zero difficulty, I need to put out more power to match people's speeds, and often cannot catch them as I max out the gears. When I increased trainer difficulty, it is harder, but I move faster uphill. In other words, it is still a significant workout either way, unless one is content at going at 3kmh uphill.

See my video on this here: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/nZR7fW54b4l-1KM.html

@@gplama yeah I've seen this and I understand how it works based on body weight which makes sense. One thing that would've been nice for Zwift to consider is this... That when a rider hits a climb it should also consider the wattage that the person was putting out just before the climb. This would therefore add in an aspect of momentum into the game. A person doing 100 watts as he hits the climb should have lesser momentum and therefore quicker engagement of resistance on the flywheel compared to the same person doing 400 watts as he hits the same climb. The speed at which the flywheel engages should not be the same. The 400 watts should be accounted for as the flywheel engages resistance to replicate gradient. And not solely on bodyweight and gradient irrespective of power before. This particular aspect works fine for lightweight riders as the resistance isn't much to begin with, but it hits a heavy rider like a brick wall and does not engage based on the riders power before (aka no consideration for momentum)... An example would be to ride through the small bumps in the crit city route at 100kgs. A heavy rider has no chance keeping up with the pack through that sector unless he has a massive kick and leg strength to handle the immediate resistance change.

If you're in workout mode the gradients don't have any effect on resistance.

That was recorded from the Wahoo Fitness app and added as an overlay to this video.

As Shane explained at the end, it's because many bikes would run out of high gears, so you would be unable to generate much wattage. In real life, it might be desirable to stop pedalling and just coast, but I think for a lot of people on Zwift, they have Wattage targets they want to reach.

Maybe... that depends on the trainer and your riding style/preference.

The BIG DOG! Yep, the slider can be used to make that gearing work a little better for you on the trainer.

@@gplama brilliant thanks alot mate! Cheers.

Watch the video linked to in the description.

Dude ,for my opinion is, make your gear ratio as same as the difficulty sensation!if u use 53-39 11-25,it might very hard to choose “MAX” because you gonna down your RPM ,than you cannot hold that for long and it will be failure , but if you slide the button into the middle, The sensation of gear ratio may be down to 11-28 ,which mean the same gear suddenly much easier to make output, as the same theory,if you move to the MIN.the gear sensation might 11-32 !however, if you watch the video, the presenter with different heart rate and RPM,when he demonstrate max middle min.

It depends… having more resistance to push against on a downhill is an advantage. You still have to produce the power though.

That’d be neat. The Kickr bike (and Neos) could take this a step further with their virtual flywheel too. The other day I switched Kickr Bike virtual gears to a climbing setup for Innsbruck. That was neat. It would be great to do that in-game though. More integration!

While slowly dying a horrible death on the inside. 💀

Correct.

@@gplama Thanks

Surely that makes it easier then Shane as your only riding up4% would it not have just been easier to force everyone to max then it’s a level playing field still can’t see how somebody riding up an easier gradient is working the same as me? Am I being dumb?

@@stevec2739 Let's say you are climbing - Slider = 100% Watts = 300 Cadence = 60; Slider = 0% Watts = 300 Cadence = 100 Speed = SAME in both examples as the wattage is the same, only your cadence will differ. It's a cadence/amount of shifting selector. Your cadence has zero effect on how fast your avatar is going, only power matters :)

The way I understand it you are still climbing a 8% gradient but you are doing it in a lower virtual gear than is actually on your bike. On steep climbs at less than 100% reality your road speed is less than you would actually have if it was a direct 100% hookup to the ground. This keeps you from running out of gears on uphills and downhills.

One for Zwift Support to dive into the specifics for troubleshooting.

@@gplama cheers legend 👊🏽

Trainer difficulty has no impact on in-game speed.

It'll change the speed (and therefore recorded distance) reported directly from the trainer. This is independent of whatever software you're using that likely does its own speed/distance calculations.

I did a race the other day at 0% and you have to keep pedaling constantly and can't coast downhills, i ended up in vo2 for 20 mins and i was toast. The resistance never comes down with 0%. In a real race you are able to take your foot off the pedals sometimes and at 0% it doesn't let off.

My opinion is yes, you will climb faster with the trainer resistance set to zero given as you stated you don't have to play with shifting gears and can just hold study at whatever high watt level you can hold. Your legs are not getting hit with a buch of resistance changes (assuming hill grade is changing) which add up and take there toll on your legs over a long climb. Also the angular inertia of the trainer flywheel/ bike's back wheel is much higher when producing x watts at no resistance vs x watts with resistance being applied. Easier to hold higher watts under this scenario.

@@Ed-qv2qd thank you. I guess an experiment is required to be sure but that would require at least 2 max effort reps up one of the big climbs and I don't won't to do that! Mr Lama, over to you :)

It doesn't matter in-game. You still have to do the same watts for the same result.

Good question. I’ll need a coffee first. All you need to start with is Zwift will send full uphill gradient at MAX and 1/2 the downhill.

Shane Miller - GPLama Fair enough 👍🏻 Useful to know but I won’t be losing any sleep over it!😂

5% in-game becoming a 2.5% gradient simulation sent to your trainer means you're less likely to spin out on the virtual downhills.

Being able to push against something = more watts = more speed.

Exactly. 👍🏼

Shane Miller - GPLama - So then are we cheating ourselves so to speak by keeping the slider around 50%?

@@USCyclist In what way? You still have to put out the power to move your avatar. Whether it is on 100% or 50%, you still have to put out a said wattage to move at a said speed up an incline.

@@norbsy You can cheat yourself up steep climbs by having a higher cadence. On steep climbs i'm on the lowest gear with a cadence of 55, it would be a lot easier if my cadence was near 90 for the same power output.

By the sounds of things, if you are a high cadence sort of person, a lower difficulty setting would suit your riding style (in real life you probably would use easier gears and higher cadence anyway). Whilst being a grinder, you'd do better with a higher difficulty setting. A lower difficulty setting may help increase your cadence whilst a higher difficulty setting would help build some leg strength (assuming you are flicking through gears at a rapid rate to keep your cadence the same for the required watts). I haven't ever adjusted my difficulty, I'm trying to master the setting and learn how different efforts impact my avatar and my body. One thing I am struggling with is sprinting. In real life I can sprint pretty well, in Zwift at the end of a race I am struggling. I drop down gears and stand up, I feel that maybe if the difficulty setting was lower, I could stay seated and just increase my cadence and spin that flywheel at a rapid rate to produce higher watts (even though my muscles wouldn't feel like they were being hurt as much)..?? Would be interested what setting the guys who consistently win fast races are at and whether they use high cadence to sprint or a big gear...

That’s another topic. Subjective response to the effort. If trainer difficulty was an issue they’d have to standardise it in races. And also ensure everyone was on the same gearing…. and the same trainers (as not all trainers simulate gradient equally).

No problem 👍

6% will be the max. It will get to 6% and stop increasing the resistance/feel at full trainer difficulty.

@@gplama thanks for your reply and the great videos.

You will not go faster i think because your gearing will run out like outside.

@@robertg.5932 my understanding from shanes video is if i put it down to near zero difficulty that would make it feel like a 1 or 2% slope so i shouldnt have that issue. i shall test tomorrow morning :)

O.k. make a test, i tested it with 50/100% down adz always the same time, about 11min without pedaling on neo.

Robert G. I tried it on zero and going off the top I didn’t feel the descent. So I could be in the muddle of the cassette going down and pump out 3 to 400 watts. I stopped half way and made it 100% and I had to be in the highest gear just to make 300 Watts peddling quite fast.

Yes. But the downhill drive is not all that useful.

@@gplama I thought it might not be that much of a benefit as most trainers still accelerate on downhills whether you're pedalling or not anyway. Saying that, a Kickr Core I got last month stopped on downhills as soon as you stopped pedalling. I sent it back! I might just save myself £400 and buy a Saris H3. I've just got an Elite Tuo and think it's very, very good but want better... but I always do ;-)

I've just orderd a Neo 2T today so I'll see what they are like this week.

Lag is due to two reasons. Firstly - The speed at which gradient changes are sent to the smart trainer. There's always a 250ms lag at this point, at best (the connection). I believe Zwift sends updates at 1 second (control). Secondly is the trainer itself and how it controls resistance. Some trainers use mechanical parts to move magnets which adds delay.

Yes. See this video: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/nZR7fW54b4l-1KM.html *Note that this has no impact on the in-game reality, only the in-person reality there in your pain cave.

Mine was at 0% and my gear is permanently on the second fastest gear, including up steep hills. I too, prefer that experience as I adjust my speed using my cadence rather than the gears.

I'm hesitant to spam/share my videos over there these days. As you say, it's more a source of memes than being the helpful community it once was.

@@gplama Not wrong. I finally had to hide the page despite the numerous helpful posts from people like you and others. Or seeing people in similar positions to mine making progress (struggling with weight and using cycling as a way to enjoy a different lifestyle). The recent spike in difficulty slider stuff was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I honestly wanted to cheer for people that get stronger (and therefore FTP increases) and could either like or ignore those posts. But the sheer volume of slider posts made it too hard to find things worth seeing now. Kind of jealous of the ladies. My wife has told me how useful Zwift Women group is. Sure we get a spike in activity on the Dimension Data group during ZA, but otherwise it is just tens of thousands of people posting the same 10-20 things on the main page now. On the bright side there's still your and Ray's videos for the useful side of all things indoor cycling. And sometimes it can be fun to dive down that rabbit hole on Facebook for a bit.

My linked video covers this.

@@gplama Thank you Shane! That linked video does explain/show the effect very well. So if trainer difficulty is reduced from 100% it basically "flattens" the road so that you feel less the fluctuations in elevation. Regardless, you still need to lay down the same amount of power to keep your avatar moving at the same speed. Reducing the trainer difficulty amount will make for a smoother ride but not an easier ride.

No.

Yes