How does NB-IOT and CAT-M1 / LTE-M compare to LoRaWAN (Tutorial)?
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Місяць томуSmartphones connect nearly everywhere to the Internet. What if we could use all their towers to connect our sensors and other gadgets to the Internet? Would LoRaWAN or Sigfox be obsolete?
If you are brave, you will follow my journey and learn much about cellular IOT technology and how to survive the minefield it is built on. Then, you can decide what to do with LoRaWAN.
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@SORACOMIoT Місяць тому
Glad to hear that our Soracom IoT SIM worked so well for you, Andreas!
@Airbag888 Місяць тому
Happy camper with Soracom SIMs as well.. worked everywhere and attractive pricing.. Also surprised by the cool services to do remote access or end to end traffic security
@ErikMeike Місяць тому
Same, also a happy customer using soracom for the past few years with some particle borons and others.
@Henry-sv3wv Місяць тому
25MB data transmission per month How much bytes is 1 soracom MB? 1024*1024 or 1000*1000
@RGPinger 29 днів тому
looks like u havent finished school with this question@@Henry-sv3wv
@davidjohnson7613 24 дні тому
Just ordered a SIM to experiment with.
@phil2082 Місяць тому
Encrypted communications through private networks that are not intercepted is still something worth having, regardless of how great you can put sensors onto phones and place in different places.
@vacumedballs Місяць тому
What a happy surprise to see a very familiar Anritsu faceplate and GUI being a part of this channel, thanks for the great and informative content! Your LoRa content got me interested in LoRa-gateways, and P2P-LoRa connection possibilities for hobby use. 73 from Finland
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I was lucky to know the owner of this lab. So I was able to use it for free...
@stefans9990 Місяць тому
Thanks for the video Andreas. Nice to see the familiar Nordic PPK2 graphs and also Walter - Daan and his team have been fantastic to work with and I am so happy that you've been able to feature them on your channel twice now 🙂. As for the CAT-1bis, I've also recently had the opportunity to work with an ESP32-S3 board from Makerfabs that uses the SIMCOM7670 . This seems to offer CAT1bis (10Mbps download, 5Mbps upload). What is super cool about this is that it just worked with any local SIM Card and that it can degrade to 2G/3G if that is all that is available. Yes, there are still places in the "wild west" where this is the case. I myself still have a working Nokla 1280 🙂
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
The tip for CAT-1bis came from a viewer who works for a big telco ;-)
@waynelaw8999 Місяць тому
Thing to remember for Cat1bis is that it's not really an IoT technology. Cat1bis is a variation of LTE Cat1 introduced for wearable like smart watches. The difference between Cat1 and Cat1bis is the removal of the Rx diversity antenna. LTE mandates at least 2 antennas but in a small format factor device like a watch, to fit 2 antennas in would be a struggle and even if you could fit them in, the close proximity to each other means you do not get much diversity gain. So Cat 1 bis was introduced as an exception to the rule requiring LTE devices to have at least 2 antennas. By removing the second Rx chain from a Cat1bis enabled manufacturers to make a cheaper radio module and that was appealing for IoT applications. Of course removing the second antenna means your downlink radio performance budget is impacted.
@stefans9990 Місяць тому
@@waynelaw8999 - I did indeed wonder why the board only had 1 LTE antenna - your explanation has been great in explaining that. Thank you!
@SoundOfYourDestiny Місяць тому
Is that in the U.S.?
@stefans9990 Місяць тому
@@SoundOfYourDestiny- If you mean the SIM Cards that just worked with LTE CAT-1bis, no, not US. Doesn't mean that it might not work in the US, just that that is not where I tested. If I remember correctly, the SIM7670 data sheet does not show the US as a supported region, but maybe it just hasn't been certified for use there yet.
@antor44 Місяць тому
A great video as always. You missed adding LoRaWAN by satellite, which you talked about some time ago. These connections avoid the problem of lack of coverage. Regarding 5G, I think perhaps the uses for IoT were the main reason for the war between the United States and Huawei, not only because of the higher speed and low latency in computers and mobile devices. 5G should be a great improvement over the previous, so it seemed that all the devices in the world would be connected thanks to 5G, in the trade war or accusations for security not only depended on Huawei routers, which were already available and much cheaper than American Cisco or Nokia ones, but also the security for the IoT that companies, institutions, and consumers were going to use massively.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
LoRaWAN over satellites still is a very small niche. I enven do not know if it is widely available now.
@sundaramraghuraman1197 Місяць тому
Learned a lot by watching the video as it answered many of my questions about choosing LoRaWan vs CAT-M1.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Glad you liked it!
@ronaldglider 29 днів тому
Another fantastic video with boatloads of Info! Love to meet you sometime face2face.... Two years ago, I migrated my 2G modems to a SIM7000 module - took a couple of weeks to make it all work...
@AndreasSpiess 27 днів тому
Thank you! Indeed, this new technology is not easy... But also 2G was not always easy, particularly if you wanted to use several carriers.
@KrisKanyon Місяць тому
Excellent video, as always. I was a little surprised you didn't mention the Particle Boron. Particle has been in the connected devices market for years. The Boron module uses Cat-M and comes already provisioned with their EtherSIM (or eSIM). The code libraries make development easy and fast. I got a temperature and humidity logger up and running in half a day, and it's been running for a year without problems. Yes, you must use the Particle cloud (like TTN) but it supports webhooks to access your data. I was very impressed with the Boron hardware and software and how Particle has made it easy to do IoT.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You are right, I never looked at Boron. Maybe a mistake. Good you mentioned it here. Thanks!
@richard_wenner Місяць тому
Well done. I'd given up trying to untangle the elements that you have explained so well here. You have also identified one of the most powerful assets in this IoT field - a friend inside the industry who a) knows the technology and b) is able to supply SIM cards at near zero cost. As you stated the incumbent 4/5G operators are only interested in volume users of their networks - not us small guys.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Indeed, I like to stand on the shoulders of giants ;-) Happy Easter!
@richard_wenner 29 днів тому
I'm down here!! Happy Easter to you too Andreas.
@evandroluiz558 Місяць тому
Nb-IoT NTN (non-terrestrial networks) is also very interesting, it uses Nb-Iot modules to communicate with satellites, which is probably the cheapest way to do it at the moment. This is quite new and was only introduced by 3GPP in release 17
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I heard about it, but I am not sure if this is cheaper than the 2$/year SIM cards. Do you know a provider for such a service?
@antaries778 Місяць тому
Skylo and satteliot are two sources of NTNs but are still only providing Sims to resellers (like montogo or t mobile) or to NDA signatories AFAIK.
@evandroluiz558 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess I would have liked to have said cheaper compared to other satellite modems, which cost a few hundred dollars each. About providers, I know of Sateliot and Skylo, but I imagine there will be others soon. Skylo says something about starting at $6/month, but doesn't say how much data is included This is interesting as a fallback to nb-iot, if there's no cellular network available, it sends data via satellite
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
@@antaries778 Their homepages do not contain a lot of information. More like startups. Did you test them?
@antaries778 28 днів тому
@@AndreasSpiess it wasn't easy, but I have just made an agreement with one supplier and now have a Dev kit and NTN SIM card in the post for a trial. I can let you know how it goes.
@frankbierschneider8785 16 днів тому
Wow, amazing how much knowledge and info you present!! Thanks a lot indeed for your invaluable work for this community!! ❤
@AndreasSpiess 13 днів тому
Thank you for your kind words!
@marcodegier6298 Місяць тому
As someone working in cellular IoT, I think you did a very fair comparison. Maybe to add that NB-IoT has +20db coverage compared to LTE-M so it has better indoor penetration. This is at the cost of repetations hence increased latency and is also the reason why tcp based protocols such as mqtt are not the best choice. So indeed better to use coap. Also LTE-M is much more 2G like. It e.g. also supports voice (VoLTE) though most operators have not implemted that yet.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for your "verdict". This video took a long time to learn for me. So I am glad you think I got it right ;-)
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
Sorry you are wrong. LTEM has just 6 dB sensitivity in comparison to NB-IoT. VoLTE is feature of LTEM, but it is not supported in all LTEM networks. The diverse in the supported features in different networks makes it complex. I consult IoT companies with global roll out. The SIM card of Andreas delivered by Crout is a multi IMSI with 4 IMSIs. I can help with up to 25 IMSIs. CoAP UDP or MQTT-SN on UDP is the way to go. A round trip time of 10 seconds with NB-IoT and LTE-M is possible. I test with my team 5G NTN (NB-IoT by satellite). 10 to 40 seconds round trip time!
@ThomasHaberkorn Місяць тому
genius content, exactly what I was looking for
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
:-)
@dontwanttousemyrealnametol6765 Місяць тому
thank you for all the details. I'm from Belgium and I'm glad to learn about Walter. I've always wondered about a cellular application in the (international) tracking of a large fleet of bicycles for rent, where the users have a low cost option to leave it behind somewhere for someone else to use. Currently the limitation is that it is a subscription based service where you always need to leave the bike where you took it within the same country. If you commute to work with such a bike, the time at work is charged as the rental period, and no-one else can make use of the bike parked there.
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
You are always welcome to come and drink a cup of coffee with Walter in our office at the coast in Knokke-heist :) Roaming (to have coverage in multiple countries with the same SIM) is very reliable and one of the big advantages of cellular IoT.
@wjn777 Місяць тому
Thank you for the video. Many of the new cellular chips also support GPS, e.g. the SIM7000G
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree.
@ZiGLH Місяць тому
Thanks a lot Andreas! It's very instructive!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Glad you think so!
@1985Cratos 20 днів тому
Great video as always. Objective comparison
@AndreasSpiess 20 днів тому
Thank you!
@moormoor4281 Місяць тому
Thank you from England
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You are welcome!
@philorkill Місяць тому
Super Sach! Merci vilmol fürs teilä!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Gern geschehen!
@mcorts69 6 днів тому
Thanks Andreas, you are the best!
@AndreasSpiess 5 днів тому
My pleasure!
@SteveWrightNZ Місяць тому
Thank you, very helpful. Currently looking at an IOT project...
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Glad you liked the video!
@rickharold7884 Місяць тому
Cool stuff. Thanks!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
My pleasure!
@amirharsat2224 28 днів тому
Im always fascinated by your patience and the way you explain . Thank you Andreas, p.s did you manage at the lab getting other results such as RSSI, SNR of the DUT/UUT ?
@AndreasSpiess 27 днів тому
I did not do any tests about the link budget. The video already was 20 minutes long ;-)
@foxblockpictures Місяць тому
Great video! Would love to see a comparison of indoor penetration of LoRAWAN vs NB-IoT. This is one area where there is a lot of debate at my company (deploying IoT projects). I have found some studies, but nothing really conclusive and a lot of marketing bullshit sadly. Especially some practical tests would be nice, since there is so much going on (repeat transmission in NB-IoT, ADR/SF for LoRa, different max allowed power, chirp spectrum, distance to gateway/cell tower, etc.)
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
We have done extensive testing in Belgium at 200 locations with Walter. Both with LTE-M and NB-IoT. We have done the same in the past with LoRa(WAN). I can say that NB-IoT has the best range (we could communicate through a metal lid from two stories underground). The difficulty in making a true comparison is that we do not have control over the base station in case of cellular. Maybe we should lock Walter to a certain antenna and do a range test and do the same with a LoRa transceiver. I'm open to suggestions.
@pedroavex Місяць тому
Mr Andreas, I use 1NCE, give a check. They have cheap 10-year sim cards for IoT and as far as I understood also available CatM1 and NBIot, if available on the local MNO.
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
We can confirm that 1NCE is working with Walter with both LTE-M and NB-IoT.
@chris-tal Місяць тому
+1 for 1NCE. We've switched to them from another provider after we hit a bump and started searching for bugs in our hw, code and even the modem's firmware, logging cell registration, etc.The previous provider tried to help to some extent though (we had the sense that they were in the blind apart their very onw APN) by suggesting necessary specific modem fuctionality. We have tens of remote devices across a few countries, but sometimes all, other times just one country's network would drop them after 1-2 months and most won't try to reconnect. This made us rethink the LoraWAN idea again, but 1NCE is doing something differently and saved us a lot of headaches.
@polik971 Місяць тому
Thanks Andreas for all your efforts. I follow you from years (you got me into Lora since then and now it's exploding). You say we need filters if near a cellular tower but which one? The usual SAW filters has 2-3 dB insertion loss that is high for a 22dBm node (BTW most of those filters has a max power handling of 18-20dBm). Cavity filters are outrageously expensive...and rare
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
One of the gateway providers indeed adds cavity filters for that purpose. They seem to be needed if you want to mount it on the cellular tower.
@PhG1961 Місяць тому
I followed you on this journey... so I guess I'm brave now?! Great video!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Yes, you are a brave man!
@jamesheinz6325 Місяць тому
Thank You 🙏
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You’re welcome 😊
@Phoen1x883 Місяць тому
20:30 I just want to stress that the 'in development' nature of cellular IoT is probably a negative for any serious project you might be considering. I personally don't want to stop getting sensor updates 3 years from now, call up my provider to ask what's going on, and hear "Oh wow, you have one of _those_ old modules? What a blast from the past! So yeah anyway we dropped official support for that old protocol version 6 months ago", and then need to go and replace everything I've deployed. Be sure to judge how reliable you expect your cellular provider to be long term.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree.
@Tjelfe Місяць тому
For Austria, Germany and Switzerland, you could have a look at 1NCE or q.beyond, they specialize in IOT sim cards
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for the tip! Indeed, they seem to have similar offers.
@SRMurugesh-2255 19 днів тому
Love From India ❤ Sir
@AndreasSpiess 19 днів тому
Thank you!
@dimmoos757 Місяць тому
very interesting ! tnx
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You are welcome!
@klassichd10 Місяць тому
Thank you for your effort! Still I do not have a usage of remote transmission outside of my property. But I got a smartmeter gateway for the electricity meter extending the standard electronic electricity meter to a so called iMSys. This gateway communicates over LTE. Might be, they are using such a low data rate protocol.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Some utility companies use those protocols (AFAIK). I wanted to make this video for a long time because I think, the technology is important (everybody talks about M2M in cars and industry). So we should at least know enough to mage a thorough decision. And I did not find a lot of overview videos. I had to search pretty hard to get all the details.
@klassichd10 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess Yes, this topic is very specialized an not mainstream. For the future smart meter gateways of the utiliy companies "LTE450" is released here in Germany. Lower frequencies should help to reach the meters located in the basement.
@tjairicciardi9747 Місяць тому
awesome video !
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Glad you enjoyed it!
@maxheadrom3088 16 днів тому
I don't consider myself to be that brave ... may I follow you into this journey anyway? BTW, your videos are fantastic! Thanks!
@AndreasSpiess 16 днів тому
I think you have followed my videos for quite some time. So you know what you have to expect ;-)
@plasmamac Місяць тому
Thx Andreas
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You are welcome!
@danielegger6460 Місяць тому
Funny, we did an LTE-M project 7 years ago, never took off and died 5 years ago, also due to the lack of affordable SIM cards (which seems to have changed in the meantime). It's a bit weird to call it an upcoming technology since a lot of (mostly utility) companies stopped using it already to due unfulfilled promises of benefits. LTE-M is really only usable with eDRX and UDP based (like you said CoAP) protocols like LwM2M in eDRX/queue mode to work efficiently, which is really hard to implement properly and requires careful consideration on the application side and a boatload of tweaking. Anything else will burn through your data (read: cash) and/or power budget way too quickly to be viable (both commercially and for hobby use). In contrast to LoraWAN where you "only" pay for the actual payload that is a huge difference and implementation burden.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree with your statements. This is why I think both technologies will have their places. But I also think, that some of the current M2M problems will be solved over time. It is still a new technology if you measure in "Telco time"...
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
IoT sim cards for LTEM are often LTE sim cards without support of eDRX and PSM. As soon the LTE network will use 3GPP Release 14 instead of Release 13, they will stop to work. This was happen in UK in October 2023. Andreas got from Crout multi IMSI UICC with 4 IMSI and 3GPP Release 14 plus roaming contracts for NB-IoT and LTEM. His Walter PCB will work in nearly any network on this nice blue planet.
@dblock8686 Місяць тому
Hey, did you look at the transport protocol MQTT-SN? It’s UDP-based and optimized for sensor networks
@kokoscom Місяць тому
thats transport. not communication. its different layer
@dblock8686 Місяць тому
as mentioned
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I only tried the buil-in MQTT protocol of the SimCom modem. So I di not know how it works. And the Walter library seems to use UDP. But you have to check how it is implemented. They accept helpers for their open source library, BTW ;-)
@yannkitson116 Місяць тому
That was interesting, I have been evaluating cellular technologies v LoRa and for my use, which it mostly fixed installations or units which are never out of range, the added cost wasn't worth it, but that is not to say it won't be in the future. BTW I just discovered that IoTstack does not in install on the RPi OS due to the installation of mqtt is crashing (the choice of packagehandler).
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I would post your problem on the discord channel of IOTstack. So far, it always installed and it should remain like that.
@yannkitson116 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess Great thank you :)
@mcconkeyb Місяць тому
Interesting stuff. Cellular is everywhere, but the cellular RAN is quite complex, due having to support so many customers in the smallest bandwidth possible. I think if you are using stationary sensors LoRaWAN seems to be the way to go. 🙂
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree.
@korgmangeek Місяць тому
Great informative video. Thank you. Finally learned why the power consumption is greater on IoT "sims". In my country you need to be a professional to get have IoT sims. LoRaWAN is a one way solution. Even with professional access, the sims are expensive. LoRaWAN is free.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Others also mentioned the need to be a business to get IOT SIM cards. Check the Walter link because they prepare a SIM card for everybody.
@dougle03 Місяць тому
Considering that LoRa is a proprietary tech controlled by one company, then yes, anything that reduces company control of everything gets my vote...
@accik Місяць тому
Oh didn't know that, somehow assumed it was at least semi open tech.
@maximus6884 Місяць тому
Lara physical layer has been open sourced by many people. The implementation is available in Python C++ etc. In addition Lorawan is fully open source
@dougle03 Місяць тому
@@maximus6884 Try buying a LoRa silicon not from Semtech? Developed by Cycleo and now owned by Semtech. The alliance actively goes after any fab making LoRaWan silicon not authorised by them... Doesn't sound very OS to me...
@dougle03 Місяць тому
@@accik LoRaWAN is a proprietary LPWAN-connectivity protocol developed by Semtech (Originally Cycleo developed it and secured the patent, was them acquired by Semtech).
@konradpierzynski4251 Місяць тому
Please, how this matter after buying bunch of chips.
@mariosuper2818 8 днів тому
Thanks
@AndreasSpiess 5 днів тому
Welcome!
@matijavukonic3888 Місяць тому
Hello Andreas, I saw in your mailbag video when you were unboxing the Walter that it came with a 250MB Soracom SIM, did you use that SIM in this video? If so, does it cost monthly or is it a one time fee? I tried looking online for more information but it isn't mentioned anywhere if there is a monthly cost.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I did not check the cost as it came with Walter. AFAIK it is a one-time data budget and if it is used, it has to be recharged (or thrown away). Did you check on the Soracom homepage for their prices?
@matijavukonic3888 Місяць тому
Thanks for the info, I've checked their site, they don't mention the 250MB plan, they only mention the 25MB/month plan, which might be alright for my project. I'm currently having issues with an Arduino library for the SX1280, and your video has made me seriously consider switching to a cellular modem.
@JonathanBeri Місяць тому
Fantastic coverage of Cellular IoT! One topic I would have included in the downlink discussion is Firmware OTA. Also, MVNOs like 1NCE and Hologram make IoT SIM plans more accessible and affordable around the world.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
OTA is an important story. But definitively too much for an introductonary video... And thank you for the link to other SIM card suppliers!
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
1nce and Hologramm is multi IMSI only. Andreas got 4 IMSIs with the freedom for automatically switch of the IMSI or manual switching. I prefer manual switching to reduce the energy consumption.
@JonathanBeri Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess definitely! OTA has often been a key decision maker for our customers when deciding between LoRa or Cellular. It often comes as a surprise that it's generally infeasible to do OTA over LoRaWAN (though not impossible.)
@kazwalker764 Місяць тому
Just found Hologram after watching this and wanted to chime in. They have a free card promo, but the shipping is steep depending on where you are. However, Hologram still turned out to be cheaper compared to domestic carriers for me, even with $30 USD shipping for a few SIM cards.
@davidclift5989 Місяць тому
Andreas, have you had time to use the Walter 5G NB-IOT card yet? If so what did you think of it?
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I made my tests with Walter, yes.
@alpha110 Місяць тому
Perhaps a plus point for Lora. With Lora you can build a completely self-sufficient IOT network. Data and power. With NB-IOT you need mobile radio and the mobile radio towers also need power.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree.
@achimkraus3269 Місяць тому
One feature of cellular, to automatically adapt the radio signale for deep penetration by cost of energy, is mentioned as disadvantage compared to a fixed level for LoRaWAN. Doesn't LoRaWAN also adapt the radio signal for penetration/distance by using some settings? If it's not adapted by that settings, then the gateway needs to be "near by", causing to require more gateways and with that also more operating costs of that gateways.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
LoRaWAN has the possibility of power adaption. Howevern not of repetitions (which can easily drain your battery). And I do know how often it is used. Most of the projects I know use full power all the time.
@LarryKapp1 Місяць тому
It is nice to own our own equipment and networks and not be reliant on commercial providers to pass our signals on. Maybe Lora is slower but it is nice to not have to be in such a big hurry ! Of course i say this as I use broad band internet , but around here we have our old 1990's ham radio packet system resurrected and 1200 baud is good enough to send messages to each other in our area and a bit beyond too.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I agree. LTE for IOT was on my list for nearly 5 years now. I think it can be a good solution for some problems. Still, after all the investigations, I like the simplicity of LoRa / LoRaWAN. This video was a huge effort for me because it is so complex. Fortunately, I had some help...
@andybarnard4575 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiessWell you did a fantastic job on this video, so please pass thanks on to those helpers. And that Anritsu test gear is not cheap!
@BerndFelsche Місяць тому
Interesting.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Glad you think so!
@chuxxsss Місяць тому
Wow, I am third. Andreas, half a gram today. Great day yesterday on the send-off of Neville Perry. Lots of European came to see him off.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Maybe you are faster because it is already evening in Australia and the Europeans have to completely wake-up first ;-)
@chuxxsss Місяць тому
@AndreasSpiess Yes, that could be it, mate. Autumn here, and still got sunburnt on a 22 degree C day very strange.
@user-sd3ik9rt6d Місяць тому
We used 3g to connect TV viewer meters to back when i was working for BARB. Nightmares of unreliable connection.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Interresting. I think, error handling is extremely important for such complex systems to get at least a certain degree of reliability. So many different states can ocur and have to be handled.
@user-sd3ik9rt6d Місяць тому
It wasn't a problem in urban areas with lots of cell towers but in rural sites where the signal strength we had to revert to telephone lines. The data was uploaded at 2 in the morning and wasn't normally more than 1Mb, it was quite interesting how the system worked. The meter normally tried for 15 mins to upload via 3g. The audio of the TV broadcast has embedded data that is picked up by the meter, similar to the RDS data on FM broadcasts. This data is injected by the broadcasters, it changes once a minute and changes to random codes. The codes are sent to a central office overnight that then matches it to the database.
@aliuyar6365 Місяць тому
Thnks
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
My pleasure!
@ThomasHaberkorn Місяць тому
regarding NB-IOT and CAT-M1: what chips to use?
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I do not know, because I did not do any tests. I think, the available libraries will be a deciding factor for prototypes and small series.
@ozdemirsalik Місяць тому
It of course is much better under many circumstances. LoRa is a very specific protocol for very specific products. And even in those products, you can use simpler and better similarly specced alternatives.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
What kind of protocols do you mean with "you can use simpler and better similarly specced alternatives"?
@tejasbirute4838 14 днів тому
I used T-7600G-H module connecting and transmitting data to blynk cloud every 1min but when i add feature to do call the data internet get disconnect and modem lost the connection as these module not support concurrency. i try reset modem but it not actually work good...
@AndreasSpiess 13 днів тому
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@IvanMarjanovicLDN Місяць тому
Yes, indeed, it is extremely interesting and very useful. Many thanks.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You are welcome!
@xzxoxlx Місяць тому
I didn't realize cellular IoT was this far along. Thanks for the info.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
My pleasure!
@bradleyr4451 Місяць тому
Hi Andreas I have a Ferrari and want to add remote control to it, what do you suggest for the processor? What do those flying drones use? they have a camera and you can have controls to move around? I could buy a drone or use a very old one with a camera and try to hack into the car; but just want some connected device up to 200 feet and be able to steer, accelerate/brake and have an onboard camera? its a 4 ft long Ferrari. using LoRa is fine, thanks
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I would use a standard remote control. They are made to control RC cars. So yours is only a bit bigger ;-)
@bradleyr4451 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess Yes thanks but this was a kids car they sit in, and the hope is to make it into an RC car with a camera like the drones have? and to build from scratch unless there is a remote control kit you are thinking of? Id have to make the Servo motor mechanism, am thinking maybe a power window motor out of some car? 12v and torque to spare, but nothing too complicated just something that works fast. thanks
@siberx4 Місяць тому
You indirectly highlighted one other disadvantage of the cellular-based systems; since cell networks are so much more important and demanding, turn-over in technologies is much faster. As you note, the 2G and 3G networks have already been turned off in most areas, so a cellular-based device purchased 5-10 years ago may very well not work in the future once 6G/7G/etc roll around. LoRaWAN on the other hand, is unlikely to see the same generational churn. If you plan to leave a sensor in place for a long time, this might mean you avoid having to redesign your project sooner.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
That is why I mentioned that these protocols are also part of 5G. But generally, you are right.
@microcolonel 16 днів тому
If they opened LoRa up then it would have a better chance. It really does have technical advantages over the others for true ultra-remote sensing.
@AndreasSpiess 16 днів тому
TTN is open source. Only the chip is proprietary. Which is the case for most chips I use.
@ThomasRogenmoser Місяць тому
Thanks @andreasspiess, very informative once again! I agree @comments below, 1NCE is awesome for small-data needs, 100MB valid 10 Years with roaming... For a bit more data (eg. our autonomous camera (murgcam on Github) sends one 300kb Photo per Hour), i use a SIM from Digital Republic, 400kbit Flatrate for 4CHF/Month. While testing how to replace the currently used GSM Modem, i found the Digital Republic SIM to work with a ublox SARA-R410M Modem, which is Cat-M1 & NB-IOT only. Has anyone ever done calculations or experiments on the spent energy to send a few hundred kb via NB-IOT vs Cat-M1? Also, i wonder where the limit is, where modem-sleep makes sense vs. powering it completely down. How does sleep-energy compare to the energy spent for re-registering on every wake. 40sec. stated in the video sounds like a lot. With the GSM Modem of murgcam, it made sense to power off the modem, so in sleep we have only the power consumption of the ESP in deep-sleep and the 3v3 regulator losses.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Interesting! The supplier I mentioned was exactly Digital Republic. My SIM card did not work with NB-IOT and, after contacting them, they were astonished that it supported CAT-M... Concerning energy: PSM woith PAI should be best (if supported). Walter consumes just a few microampere when the ESP and the modem is in deep sleep. So that does not count too much. Measuring power consumption is not easy with this technology as it does not always take the same time to transmit data (as said: Repetitions). So best probably would be to deploy a few of them in different situations and measure over a longer time. You see in the power diagrams how long it took to connect to the cell (more than 10 seconds...). But PSM usually is alowed for more than 24h. So you do not need to re-attach.
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
The 40 seconds in the video is for constantly receiving on eDRX. In PSM 3 uA is today common. If you transmit each 2 to 3 days only, then power off is maybe the better option.
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
@@HaraldNaumann The deep sleep current of Walter is 9.8uA. 1uA is for the Sequans in PSM, 8uA for the ESP32-S3 and 0.8uA for our DC-DC converters.
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
0.5 uA deep sleep current with the Gillette order button developed by my team. Button press on polling active and timer for wake up each 14 days active.
@stefanoclementi3550 22 дні тому
i want to use the SIM7080g controled by ES32, but i want to save a UART port, in the Datasheet say that has I2C but don't say what is the address 🤕, either say how it works, just send the AT comand througth I2C???🤔 Exellent and informative video
@AndreasSpiess 21 день тому
I did not find any information about the I2C interface (only pins). The address is easy: Use ani I2C scanner sketch on the ESP32. I assume you know that the ESP32 has 3 UARTS...
@stefanoclementi3550 21 день тому
@@AndreasSpiess yep, but is not enough, and software serial sometimes crash 😕
@AndreasSpiess 21 день тому
@@stefanoclementi3550 Then you have to invest your time and try ;-)
@achimkraus3269 Місяць тому
I guess, that statement, that LoRaWAN takes less power than cellular, depends also on the (ip-) protokol used on the top and the used modem. Though you have a PPK II, would it be possible to get your LoRaWAN power consumption for a 100 byte message (or so)?
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
We did those tests with LoRaWAN. That is why I know that these cellular modes consume more power. LoRaWAN does not use IP, BTW. It just transmitts payload bytes with an additional header.
@achimkraus3269 День тому
@@AndreasSpiess sorry for my late response. My question was more, if the cellular measurement was done with something as 100 bytes UDP message, or 100 bytes via MQTT/TLS/TCP. And maybe, you just publish your LoRaWAN numbers? For nRF9160 NB-IoT (normal signal conditions) it's about 100mAs (at 4.0V => 400mWs).
@Aisi555 Місяць тому
NbIOT is sukcs here in Indonesia since the operator are reluctant to share the simcard to the public , it must be a company based with a profitable purposes
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
This seems to be the case in other countries, too.
@collie147 Місяць тому
Informative as always. I got a Thingy-91 a while back and some of it really had me stumped but I think what I've learned here might offer some explanations to what I was missing. I did have some real problems getting an NB-IOT SIM here in Ireland though.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Indeed, getting an IOT SIM card seems to be a challenge. Particularly if you are not a business.
@KaiseruSoze Місяць тому
The lowest power consumption I have seen was an alarm sensor. It would notify the alarm panel every minute that it was present and would send an open or close event when a window or door was opened. The sensor ran on one 3V coin cell and lasted for about 7 years. And it was about the size of 5 stacked quarters. And it had a wire antenna about 8 cm long. How is it possible to do something like this??!! I would love to do this with a humidity sensor under my house and a few soil moisture sensors around my yard and temperature sensors in my house for a zoned HVAC system.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I do not know how it was done. Are you sure it used 4G?
@christosmoutevelis4896 Місяць тому
Most door / window alarm sensors operate in the sub1Ghz band and send data to alarm control panel , at predetermined intervals ( 16 sec to one hour ) or when an event occurs . The alarm panel has to be within the sensor range ( varies with open space , number of walls etc ) or a repeater is used then to increase sensor range . Alarm control panels communicate with the rest of the world with tel modem line or wifi or GSM etc ... but these have large battery ( usually 12V 7Ah ) for staying alive at least 12-24 hours , when mains power goes out !
@PhotographyMonstercam Місяць тому
I’ve had a pretty good experience using Hologram IoT SIM cards
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@mjp0815 Місяць тому
For me, Lorawan and ttn is too difficult to use, and public coverage is not there yet, also the off the shelf sensors I tried use far too much power...
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
All depends on the use case, I think...
@Paxmax Місяць тому
632 cui... Wow, 10.35 liter engine, pretty massive.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
:-)
@TradieTrev Місяць тому
This has been common knowledge here in Australia for commercial industrial devices. I was surprised it took you so long to pick up the subject. We used to control water and sewerage plants in my line of work with just sms's back in the day.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
As I explained, up till now it was not easy to use nor in a good price range here in Switzerland...
@christosmoutevelis4896 Місяць тому
Sms control in Australia was not used with battery modems I assume. Even the best battery efficient phones had a 3 week battery time in sleep mode . Andreas is comparing technologies you could use for example to send temperatures from an enviroment sensor for years .
@TradieTrev Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess Mining companies DNGAF about cost! Great explanation as always kind sir! I would love to live on the shoulders of such giants like yourself.
@TradieTrev Місяць тому
@@christosmoutevelis4896 Do you have some real world experience? Because that's what I'm talking about.
@y2ksw1 Місяць тому
I am so sorry I have no time to waste right now, else I could make protocols working with normal SIM cards. That was my job for a very long time, but now I am involved in a large project and I have absolutely no time to dedicate for such a useful job. Maybe in a year or so ...
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Indeed, a library for these new modes is important...
@maheshmandhare8008 24 дні тому
Lorawed is still alive he has good band
@AndreasSpiess 21 день тому
??
@zoenagy9458 11 днів тому
Helium network providers world wide LoraWAN coverage!
@AndreasSpiess 10 днів тому
Everywhere, but not here :-(
@p1366 Місяць тому
Very interesting video. I use the Nordic thingy 91 and the Quectel BG96. LoRoWAN easier to test ened-to-end, Cellular needs a callbox for end-to-end testing. Also NB-IOT first scan can take up to 25 mins! Cheers!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Good to know about the 25 minutes! Because all our carriers use B20, I was able to shorten this a bit ;-)
@waynelaw8999 Місяць тому
Only the first scan takes a long while because the modem does not know which country it is in and therefore must search all bands. After the first time, the modem is smart and will try the frequency that worked last time. You can also speed this first search up if you know ahead of time where the modem will be used. For people with Swiss accents, your application could lock the modem to only use band 20 for example.
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
@@waynelaw8999you never search for all and limit to the popular bands. Clever code is the way to win the game.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
@@waynelaw8999 That is what I did ;-)
@devrim-oguz Місяць тому
You should make a video about WiFi HaLOW
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I do not think this will play a role in Europe. At least not with the current regulations. So a US guy has to do it.
@ShirishJadav162 Місяць тому
We have some asset tracker on bg 95 and ota has been pain, first its slow and fails often to download.. When we had 2g 3g module devices fota was faster and more reliable.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@leafyism Місяць тому
I build weather stations for remote areas, so LoRa isn't feasible because there is no existing infrastructure. Cellular (or satellite) is the only option and I've had a lot of success using LTE (SIM7600) and LTE-M (SIM7070) modems from SIMCom. LTE-M modems are less expensive, bur LTE-M does not have nearly as much coverage as regular LTE! In developing countries, 2G/3G/LTE are often the only option. I have had no problem getting low power consumption by powering on the modem for each transmission then shutting down (transmitting about 200 bytes every 5 minutes on a 18650 battery with a 1W solar cell). I'm using a Hologram SIM card with global coverage. I also had much better luck writing my own library to send AT commands to the modem and transmit via UDP (with acknowledgement for guaranteed delivery) than using any of the existing libraries. Protocols like MQTT have way too much overhead for a low-power IoT use in my opinion, especially if you have a large network of sensors and data usage is a concern.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@landspide 27 днів тому
Also don't forget cat1-bis
@AndreasSpiess 27 днів тому
I thought I mentioned it in the end ;-)
@Hex-Mas Місяць тому
Just clime the towers and put some meshtastic repeaters up lol
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
They probably would be killed in less than a minute (because of the lacking filters ;-) )
@EA1EF 28 днів тому
SIM M2M are yhe denomination that you refer in this video
@AndreasSpiess 27 днів тому
You are right.
@lemon9.9 19 днів тому
NB-IOT service is only available for commercial use and not individual use😢
@AndreasSpiess 19 днів тому
The service is not limited, but it is hard to get SIM cards for non-commercial companies. The Walter crew is working on the issue...
@Embassy_of_Jupiter 16 днів тому
IoT Mesh networks are going to be a privacy nightmare. Pretty sure there'll be a day when it's virtually impossible to buy non-IoT-mesh products, like how it's virtually impossible to have a smartphone that doesn't spy on you. Best we can do then is to put a Faraday cage around our toasters and lightbulbs. 😂
@AndreasSpiess 16 днів тому
I am not very concerned about that. At least not for now.
@johnathanjamesjohnsonjr7408 Місяць тому
...👏🎉🎯💯👍❗+4 the algorithm.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
:-)
@N1ghtR1der666 13 днів тому
very interesting and it has good use cases, but I still will prefer not to rely on companies for my systems and certainly don't think I would like to pay for a subscription to do so
@AndreasSpiess 12 днів тому
I agree. If your sensors are stationary, LoRaWAN is a good solotion.
@Ruhgtfo 28 днів тому
Neverknew i can still remian alive this time of why
@AndreasSpiess 27 днів тому
??
@Ruhgtfo 27 днів тому
@@AndreasSpiess San Andres goes communisam
@Shamansdurx Місяць тому
MIOTY is designed for massive IOT!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Massive on a small area, you are right.
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
Maybe the next video of Andreas?
@wivachrungsvang5912 Місяць тому
Rip for LoRaWan in Thailand
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
You still can place your own gateway. Ot is ISM forbidden in Thailand?
@pettermyhre4074 Місяць тому
Great video and happy to see that you are using Power Profiler Kit II (PKK2) to measure current! If anyone wants to learn more about the key benefits of using cellular IoT in LPWAN applications I can recommend this video from Nordic Semiconductor: ukposts.info/have/v-deo/fHFhp217opiQ1HU.htmlsi=p6gG92Zsg-PI6wz_
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Thank you for the link. Of course, they do not mention the issues I encountered, they focus on large corporations ;-)
@RGPinger 29 днів тому
my boss was at China presenting our IoT devices. There was NO interest in LoRa, only to Cat1.
@AndreasSpiess 28 днів тому
Well possible. But CAT-1 seems to be quite fast and therefore power hungry…
@ViewBothSides Місяць тому
"Crout, a German Company" ... Brit humour FTW.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
I think, I know what you mean ;-)
@HaraldNaumann Місяць тому
We just the leading company in multi IMSI UICC and 5G NTN antenna design. Andreas got 4 IMSIs. I can help with up to 25.
@kabalu Місяць тому
brav Rösti
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
???
@trickyrat483 Місяць тому
@@AndreasSpiess Best my GoogleFu could come up with: "good" and "a Swiss dish consisting mainly of potatoes, sautéed or shallow-fried in a pan." :)
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
@@trickyrat483 I understood "Rösti", but not the context 😞
@deanmarsh1452 Місяць тому
My experience with nb-iot is devices have the lowest priority at the mast level (UK). Packet loss is high. Devices frequently vanish for days. Hope it's improved since!
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
Our experience is that NB-IoT is indeed much slower than LTE-M but it has better indoor range. Once connected we have not experienced vanishing NB-IoT with Walter, nor did our beta testers. One of our beta testers in de UK have indeed mentioned that NB-IoT was less stable then LTE-M. In 99% of the cases we think that LTE-M is the superior protocol in terms of speed, reliability and power consumption.
@ryanreedgibson 5 днів тому
I didn't know that was a Swiss accent. And why does everyone assume Americas eat steak? Is it unusual for people to eat beef?
@AndreasSpiess 4 дні тому
I eat steaks if I am there 😉
@StefanJunger Місяць тому
And how do I use CAT-M1/NB-IOT as a private individual?
@DPTechnics Місяць тому
You can just purchase a SIM card that is compatible with NB-IoT and/or LTE-M and connect to the network. No other licenses are required.
@StefanJunger Місяць тому
@@DPTechnics Which retailer offers something like this? I only find providers who deliver exclusively to companies - such as Crout.
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
@StefanJunger I agree, it is not easy to get one for non-business users. I heard that DPTechnics is working on it...
@zoenagy9458 11 днів тому
CatM1 is dead, we turned it off in the UK
@AndreasSpiess 10 днів тому
CAT-M or CAT-1? They seem to be very different.
@DPTechnics 5 днів тому
Hi LTE Cat-M1 (this is the same as LTE-M) is available in the UK via Vodafone, one of our beta testers validated this. Also Cat-M1 rel. 13 (4G) and Cat-M1 rel. 14 (5G) is more and more deployed and support is confirmed by these standards making it into the 5G specification.
@Oscbe1 Місяць тому
Great video!! The issue I have found with the NBIoT is getting the battery to last. It would be absolutely fantastic if it was possible to deploy sensors and they actually lasted for 5years. Also considering the self discharge from the batteries etc. Could you make a video of that? A complete example solution for deployment that actually last 5years? -Choosing hardware (cost effective) -choosing sensor and communication (example 1-20mA?) -Complete Arduino code that use deepsleep and optimizes the communication for power consumption. -choosing battery -tip and trix
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
For the moment I do not plan additional cellular IOT videos :-(
@santoshbansode697 Місяць тому
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
@GreensladeNZ 14 днів тому
TTN's elitist community has actively killed LoRaWAN. It's almost impossible to get any kind of support in the forum without some smarmy admin coming along and making your day worse.
@AndreasSpiess 13 днів тому
That is not good. I did not need support recently, so I did not know.
@Remigius0815 Місяць тому
NEVER go with proprietary technology like LoRa !!
@AndreasSpiess Місяць тому
Good decision. Hard to implement because most things I use in my live are propretary :-(
@Sh4dowHunter42 Місяць тому
Yeah, just use 5G in all of your projects, and use that with your covid vaccines. ,':3
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