What about m1 processors in the Macs

@@NicVandEmZ What about them?

@@NicVandEmZ .. Apple paid a huge amount for its licence as ARM has a market volume pricing model, and the M1 is a laptop and desktop consumer chip, so a huge market. Nuvia was a niche server chip originally, that developed an illegal consumer chip and sold itself to Qualcomm on this basis (hence the inflated price paid)). Qualcomm then tried to pass this chip off as one of its own, covered by its consumer chip license.. -- If this precedent is set ARM will have a major headache expanding its market (at a time when competition is set to takeover its market (model) via Risc-V) as granting small start-ups like Nuvia a cheap license can easily be abused by other companies. The potential losses if this happened are huge. ARM has to stand firm and make sure it grabs what it can while it still can, because its days are numbered as it stands, sadly.

I figured something like that had happened. No worries! Audio was good enough. 🙂 Thanks for this video on this bizarre situation! The way ARM's licensing works is clearly more nuanced than I was aware of.

Don't know why you're apologising for "audio issues", yes, sounds like you're in a smaller room, but .....it's not an issue

Heh good one.

They are gonna charge us for it

Based on the 2 week check out this design was a bait for ARM to file suit and put more cost into the mix. ARM took the bait. If the professor's read of the contract is correct, then Qualcomm knows it is on very shaky legal ground. So now let's re-negotiate the contract to reduce the overall cost including the lawsuit and "maybe" Qualcomm gets a better deal. Just my layman's outside looking in view. Time will tell.

@@muddyexport5639 after the siit the cost will have to be covered by qualcomm, there is no benefit for qualcomm in that sense. theyre simply trying to push boundries and setting new precedents. qualcomm really needs to be put in their place, their near monopoly has made them shitty for years

@@youraverage90sguys7 Nobody needs to be put in their place. Anyone can contribute to wireless and other standards and they do but the extent to which they contribute is all different. Anyone is free to design their LTE and 5G modems and they do (MediaTek, Samsung, Apple is working on one, and others) it's just not that easy and simple to do it, do it well, and do it on time. You will see this with Apple's modem effort for iPhone 15 launch in late 2023.

@@LogioTek i dont understand what any of that has to do with this? qualcomm absolutely needs to be put i their place, so does apple, google, facebook, amazon, microsoft and tesla. im really happy amd did that to intel, we need more of those pinches to their hypothetical chins, keep these companies on their toes,

@@youraverage90sguys7 You brought up the usual blind hate about Qualcomm. Yet without their innovations whole wireless industry would be years behind. They are where they are and it's well-deserved. People are okay to pay Apple's profit margins in the range of 50-200% (low to high end) markup on BOM cost but not okay to pay 5% wireless IP license capped at $500 device cost maxing out at $25/device. Sounds retarded but that's reality we live in.

I'm having a hard time seeing how anyone can think ARM is in the wrong. I mean, if it was in the contract, Qualcomm doesn't get to just ignore provisions any time they're inconvenient. And you're right, Qualcomm had an anti trust case brought against them because of their ridiculously overpriced, overbearing licensing practices. They're extremely greedy and shady.

@@jakublizon6375 This is Not about right or wrong, it's about Money! A lot of money!. Any contract is only as strong as how willing one is to defend it. If Qualcomm can convince the judge that the provisions in the contracts are unreasonable then they could start bringing out their own designs without getting ARM’s approval and saving them millions!!

It’s quite entertaining seeing how Apple changes the world

Yeah, same thoughts. The longer this lawsuit remains unresolved, the longer we won't have high performance ARM laptops like macbooks, which makes more people switch to Apple.

@@lieathie This!

*128 Core Mac Pro laughing in the distance*

Yep because Nuvia is basically Apple processors.

I don't think RISC-V won't change situations like this. If SiFive or Imagination licenses its designs or IP to a client and that client breaches those terms there will be legal action. RISC-V doesn't alter that because while the RISC-V specification is open, the designs and IP created around that specification aren't.

@@GaryExplains True but in the case of Nuvia and Qualcomm, if it was over RISC-V custom design, there would be no problems, considering a lot of CPU IP blocks like fabric interconnect and memory controllers are already being licensed and reused across x86, ARM, and RISC-V designs. In the next decade I see RISC-V ecosystem becoming like Linux today but in hardware realm. Software will follow.

Doubt it. Just because one company foolishly didn’t honor their agreements doesn’t mean others have to worry about doing the same

@@terribletimes902 Save the judgment for the jury and judge.

@@GaryExplains But in this case Nuvia designed the chip, not Arm, isn't that right? So if Nuvia had used risc-v spec there wouldn't be this third party shenanigans, they'd only have to deal with Nuvia. So wouldn't it absolutely change specific situations like this?

someone should review the legal work and make it public

But... its not a car.

@@mbwahaha right its even less tangible

Nuvia signed the agreement so they have to follow it.

Everything should be open source ? Who would invest in R&D ? If they are not making money from products they create ?

@@gund89123 I did no say open source but I do not agree with the patent laws the way they are. If you have a better idea on how to resolve the the issues that plague the tech world when it comes down to designing/building components that could be the subject of litigation by a large company. And if you are thinking "Maybe they should stop doing whatever they are doing so to not get sued!" then no... just no.

- Use an x86 then or open source RISC. They exist lolol. - Nothing is stopping companies from making their own architecture. They use ARM's because they're good. They can make their own OSes for their ISA while they're at it too. Don't forget ARM wasnt much until 2007 either under the existing patent laws you hate. - ARM grants a license to pretty much anybody who requests it based with fee based on their company and product size. That is their whole business model. As a result big and small companies can work with them. Compare this to Intel, where only AMD and 1-2 more companies hold an x86 license (AMD wouldn't even hold it if they didn't invent 64-bif x86). Even then ARM licensed companies compete with each other to offer the best product for reasonable price. - Patent laws only last 15 years, it's pretty reasonable standard for inventions. If they can't make a profit off their inventions (cos people can copy easily) than nobody is going to invest in them. Hardware developement is also quite costly compared to software.

Yep. There goes our chance at capable ARM laptops for another couple years

@@terribletimes902 There's the M1 technically. I don't know why exactly you'd want this though. The standardization on intel has really advanced the software industry.

Usually when lawsuits like this are brought up for major companies it's a bargaining point unless it's something huge like a security breach or something.

@@poetryflynn3712 So it will too if arm standarization goes well

​@@yohaneschristianp ​ Yeah, the thing is, when that standardization on intel didn't exist software evolved much slower because developers had to spend time optimizing between multiple platforms. While it's good to have competition, it's not great to have it over foundational things such as chip sets. It's realistic to think that it's a choice between one or the other not both.

My understanding from talking to someone close to the issue, is that the license says it explicitly. That is why there was a year of negotiating.

​@@GaryExplains Well, there's also the possibility that (Qualcomm thinks that) such term would be bogus or incompatible with copyright law in general. Oh well, as always Intellectual 'Property' is a gigantic mess

@@mskiptr Since Qualcomm also has an architectural license and it signed such a license itself with Arm, with the same clauses, then I doubt it is gambling all this on some interpretation of copyright law.

You are not wrong.

Yep, sounds like a webcam mike

More like immediately

Very much the fault of the room though

yea that's all

And Qualcomm is doing social services

Yeah that Billion from Nvidia wasn't enough...

More like Qualcomm didn’t honor their agreements

False. The last 3 lawsuits Qualcomm had was Apple+Intel, then FTC (body of US government), and latest before this ARM one was Parker Vision - all of them sued Qualcomm. Qualcomm won vs all 3. Won't be surprised if they win this one because Qualcomm generates over $6B a year from just licensing their wireless technology to others and that means retaining best IP lawyers.

There is no Arm source material on which to create a patch file. It is a clean room design.

Exactly, it's monopolistic behavior by ARM or rather by NVidia. It's Qualcomm selling the chips, and the architectural license the finished new design is submitted under is Qualcomm's. It's utterly irrelevant how Qualcomm did that development and the code is known to have been developed under a live and legitimate architectural license. The license does not attach to the engineers who are free by law to work in their own profession. Ann Chaplin is correct and not only should they win, Nvidia should be forced to spin off ARM into proper consortium ownership.

​@@GaryExplains I don't understand either of these sentences. Can you please explain?

​@@RichardBronosky Nuvia's design isn't based on the ARM design itself, but it runs ARM's ISA, a la Apple. Chip designs are IPs like Arm Cortex, or Arm Mali, which are designed by Arm, which Qualcomm and MediaTek use. Apple Silicon (and I'd assume Nuvia) might not use Cortex or Mali (their GPU is actually a PowerVR-based design), but can rum ARM's Instruction Set Architecture.

@@GauthamKrishna9991 okay, and what part of that are NVidia using in violation of their license?

There was an audio setup problem. Next video will be back to normal.

RISC-V designs are only just competing with the Cortex-A53, long long way to go yet.

At the time of writing this, SiFive P870 just announced, and it probably competes with A710 or even X2. How much progress RISCV has made in such a short amount of time is impressive!

Or Qualcomm can do like Apple did to them and keep using and shipping chips with Nuvia and just pay later when court makes unfavorable decision. You do know that Apple kept selling phones with Qualcomm modems alongside Intel modems and not paying 2017-2019, right? Then they just settled in 2019 and paid almost $5B lump sum and agreed to new terms for 2020+ when they couldn't do without Qualcomm's 5G. Apple caused a lot of financial hardship for Qualcomm which affected their ability to retain their custom CPU design team which were all let go in 2018.

Really? I hadn't noticed! 😜Unfortunately there was an audio problem with the recording. My previous videos don't have this problem, nor will the next one.

PA Semi didn't have an architectural license from Arm.

I think the comments siding with Qualcomm are partially doing so because of a desire to see ARM chips enter more consumer laptops. Apple ignited the flame with their full day battery life MacBook range and now we just want that same thing but running Windows and/or Linux. Qualcomm should probably have accepted ARMs terms, though ARM licenses are quite pricey.

@@mojojojo1529 Qualcomm did not design those chips though. Nuvia did, using their license. Qualcomm then tried to pass it off as their own chip after the sale, which is a clear violation of ARM’s terms

You do not understand business. If they apply for a new license, ARM could say not (it's biggest customer is Apple who has leverage), so does Qualcomm risk losing 1.4billion and the future of their architecture? No lawyer or court can proof that Nuvia engineers produced 100% of the architecture in the Oryon chips and Qualcomm engineers produced 0%. ARM will never succeed in stop Oryon being launched.

Qualcomm is the one abusing here.

I had an audio setup problem for this video. Previous one was better as will the next one be.

In this industry, ARM is the only major architecture designer. Everyone uses their architecture. Qualcomm would need to use RISC-V or make up their own after decades of works, neither of which are profitable. ARM is not desperate for anything. They have one of the most powerful intellectual properties that everyone needs.

@@ABDLLHSDDQI On the Contrary I think ARM is basically commiting suicide

RISC-V might be viable in 5 years, but Qualcomm needs Google and/or Microsoft to port Android, Chrome OS and Windows to RISC-V, which isn't going to happen in the near term, so for now ARM is Qualcomm's only viable option.

@@amosbatto3051 youre also leavingout all the software tooling that exists for ARM that has yet to be available and widely updated for RISCV

An act of jealousy, I suppose

As consumers we'd hope, but companies would hate that. They won't be able to control the market, there'll be too many players

RISC-V doesn't solve this. If SiFive or Imagination licenses its designs or IP to a client and that client breaches those terms there will be legal action. RISC-V doesn't alter that because while the RISC-V specification is open the designs and IP created around that specification aren't.

@@GaryExplains but in this case Nuvia/Qualcomm aren't licencing the design or IP from arm, it's a licence to do custom design and IP that is compliant with the arm architecture. If it was done using the RISC-V architecture the equivalent would be Nuvia/Qualcomm developing their own design and IP, not licencing it from SiFive or anyone else, therefore free from any legal action.

@@FilipeCacador Yes, indeed. But my point is that RISC-V doesn't solve the licensing/breaking licensing issue in any way significantly because IP is still IP regardless if it comes from Arm or SiFive or whoever..

No. Delaware.

Yeah, there were some audio issues. Well done for pointing that out, I feel very loved by your comment.

@@GaryExplains I'm a longtime fan 'cause you rock - but I'm an audio engineer aswell, sorry bro

@@COMATRON. Ah, ok, if you are an audio engineer then I accept your comment! 👍😉

Yes, there was a problem, the next video will be back to the normal quality.

Eh?

@@GaryExplains The sound quality in your latest video was very poor. That’s what I was trying to communicate.

@@wbwarren57 Well if you had read the pinned comment you would know that it has nothing to do with the microphone I am using. Also assuming it was the microphone was a mistake, it wasn't the microphone that caused this problem. Finally, making such hyperbole about plagues etc is unnecessary. But as I said, maybe try reading the pinned comment before making all your exaggerated statements.

@@GaryExplains Sorry. I listen to your UKposts videos on an iPad and it is not as easy to notice the pinned comments. The hyperbole was never to be amusing. Normally, your videos are extremely well done and have great content and wonderful sound quality. This was an exception.

@@wbwarren57 Gary’s just being an ass. You’re fine ❤

@@mojojojo1529 You talking Arm suing a big one like Qualcomm.

They did predict the takeover and included terms that said the license is only transferable with Arm's consent. That is the whole point! 🤦‍♂️

@@GaryExplains i rewatched your video. it must be one a hell of a license, to cover what was already developed under it

@@mojojojo1529 Really? Everything you just wrote is the opposite to what Arm is claiming in the lawsuit. Do you have information that the rest of us don't?

Hello bro

Risc V. Apple company

From my understanding, AMD's 64 bit instruction set was so good that Intel dropped their own implementation (Itanium) and had to license AMD's. Which resulted in a cross licensing agreement. Mainly because AMD's x64 instruction set was backwards compatible with x86 instructions, while Itanium was not. So obviously no one wanted abandon all the legacy code written for x86 and Itanium flopped on it's face. I guess my point is this, AMD might have had a similar issue, but they also had a solution that both AMD and Intel desperately needed. The only ARM customer that could possibly be in such a position today is probably Apple.

Yes, sorry, there were some audio issues, you aren't the first to notice. I will do better next time.

@@GaryExplains it actually helped me paying more attention to your voice :⁠-⁠D BTW, does a "RISC-V" ARM-like company exists out there? I'm particularly impressed at what Amazfit in terms of battery life with their smartwatches (now at the 4th generation) who sport RISC-V based SoCs

@@FrancescoVarrato SiFive and Imagination both license RISC-V CPU designs.

If that is what the license that Nuvia signed stated, then how can Arm be the bad guy for enforcing the terms of the contract? If your employer got bought and your new boss changed the terms of your employment without notice and without your agreement, you are saying that you should just accept it since the company got bought. I doubt you would accept that.

@@mojojojo1529 The Laptop Market is dominated by INTEL. Qualcomm is clearly attempting to disrupt that and ARM's Legal Action is preventing it. Hence they are doing INTEL's work; preserving their market dominance. The ARM archeticture is so prevalent that much like a NYC Rat you are never more the 6 feet away from one and I am not talking about iPhones. So Apple would only be their biggest customer in a very small market segment.

Because I had an audio issue during recording. Next video will be better.

RISC-V won't change situations like this. If SiFive or Imagination licenses its designs or IP to a client and that client breaches those terms there will be legal action. RISC-V doesn't alter that because while the RISC-V specification is open the designs and IP created around that specification aren't.

They'll settle on new terms once the arm-wrestle (ahem) is over...

@@commentarytalk1446 You go to your room and you think about what you just did.

@@commentarytalk1446 good one😂🔥

My guess is that they now go to the judge and claim that ARM has an unfair advantage in these negotiations, since Nuvia is literally worthless without the licenses, which ARM does. I don't think the judge will be too sympathetic, though. The problem is, Qualcomm has to be totally incompetent not to realize that buying Nuvia without resolving the licensing issues arising will give ARM an unfair advantage in negotiations to resolve the licensing issues arising. The judge will probably just go, "ARM does have an unfair advantage in these negotiations, an unfair advantage you have knowingly and willingly given them. It's not the court's job to the bail you out of your own greed and stupidity."

I wonder if Apple if forcing Arm to sue Qualcome since they are their main competitors in mobile phones and will lose market share if Qualcom starts introducing high powered laptop chips that can compet with Apple arm chips.

It didn't buy the company for the license, it already had one. It bought the company for its engineers and their design.

And qualcom win

I don't think that will help much. RISC-V doesn't solve the general problem of license disputes. RISC-V companies like SiFive and Imagination sell IP and designs in a very similar way to Arm. While the RISC-V specification is open, the designs and IP created around that specification aren't. Also, there are currently no competitive RISC-V designs, let alone one that can beat Apple's processors.

It’s because rather than negotiate new terms they let Nuvia’s license get terminated. For an entire year they had the chance to take the easier route and not throw out their work but they wanted to screw ARM over

Which tells us what about you? 😜

​@@GaryExplains​ I thought my 2016 LG v20 loud speaker has started acting up so I started watching other random videos then to be sure its ok, I watched your previous video then I started smiling. 🤣🤣🤣😁😁

Yeah, I had an audio problem with this one. Next one will be better.

A small company like Nuvia selling server chips is a completely different ballpark than Qualcomm selling laptop chips in terms of units sold. The terms would not be the same had Qualcomm designed their own ARM chips for laptops without Nuvia, so why should they be the same now? This is just Qualcomm being the shitty company they have always been. I can’t imagine any other company trying to pull this stunt

No there isn't a problem with that, but Arm is claiming that the time scales don't fit for that to be the case.

@@GaryExplains worst case scenario this will delay launch of the new nuvia cpus. Favouring apple 😈

Why? The three biggest RISC-V companies all license their designs in a very similar way to Arm.

Qualcomm have probably the best legal team in silicon valley. Ive never heard them lose a lawsuit and theyve even recently won against apple. If Qualcomm allowed it to get to this point they're pretty certain that they won't lose the case.

What did they do?

@@Phoenix56801 Charging OEMs a %age of the cost of the device for their modems rather than the same price for the chip. Charging for what are essential patents and should be subject to fair usage. Effectively using their modem patents to prevent OEMs using their own chips in the US. They are a sleezebag company imo.

@@crosswhite17 I agree

Some one has to spend money to develop new technology, development is not free. And they have to recover development cost.

What about the volume and royalty issues?

@@GaryExplains if I understand your video correctly, the purpose of the license has not changed, and the production volume is sure will increase hence ARM is being paid more, and still they are obliged to follow ARM architecture, then why ARM is unhappy? Unless ARM thinks that maybe after this acquisition, Qualcomm may be a possible competitor to ARM given the company size. I might be 98% wrong but I tried 😁

And yes, Qualcomm lawyers should though about this and made it clear with ARM lawyers before they bought the other company.

What difference does the architecture level have on the legal position?

You expecting a version of Windows for RISC-V any time soon?

Yeah sorry about. You aren't the first person to mention it. I think I will create a pinned comment. There was an audio setup problem. Next video will be back to normal.

No. There was an audio setup problem. Next video will be back to normal.

In theory Nuvia can come to market exactly as planned, unless ARM seeks an injunction, but in reality ARM will probably let everything proceed and then (if successful) seek their licensing fee on each core sold before they win the judgment, and then moving forward after that it'll be built in.

If everyone thinks like this and doesn’t honour contracts, then corporates are also right in being selfish I guess.

nuvia is not coming to market anymore, that project has been nixed. they were bought same reason google bought motorola, nothing more than legal framework, but in this case, unlike google with motorola they dont have a leg to stand on

@@youraverage90sguys7 nuvia is coming to the market, but not for servers, for laptops, but it's coming under the Snapdragon name... it may be delayed in the worst case scenario

@@_Digitalguy they simply bought the talent and got rid of competition, nuvias ideas are done for

Hilarious

RISC-V isn't an option. You think they are going to release a Windows laptop on RISC-V?

@@GaryExplains I thought it was for servers. But on the other hand, why not?

No, the original Nuvia chip was for servers. When Q bought Nuvia it redirected the efforts to make it a laptop chip to compete with the M1/M2.

@@GaryExplains Thanks for your responses

@@GaryExplains The Chinese just did. It runs Linux but then again these days maybe it doesn't matter that much. Once you switch away from x86 only then it doesn't matter so much if it's ARM or RISC-V. It might take some time but if ARM continues to piss off it's clients like this it may well happen. Probably no one expected 10 years ago that Windows will run on ARM laptops either.

Qualcomm is wrong point-blank

This! I think this might put pressure on more companies to develope competing architectures.

just because it has a license doesnt mean its equal to whatever nuvia had, also quite funny about monopolistic behaviour when qualcomm infact has been the monopolistic company out of the two

Qualcomm is the far larger company and this reads like them trying to strongARM into more favorable terms. A case for ARM being the monopolistic entity here would be a tough case to make indeed

@@terribletimes902 this is the same like Apple vs Epic, if you signed a contract, you need to follow.. If you walk into the non smoking restaurant, and you want to smoke, than not the restaurant need to change, you need to choose better next time, and chose a restaurant where you can smoke.. Because this is decided when you walked to there, you choosed the wrong restaurant, not the restaurant made a mistake, they was non smoking from the beginning, so basically in that moment too, when you choosed them, and you accepted this, when you walked into (signed the contract)..

Wow lots of advice. Here is some of mine: Read the pinned comment.

@@GaryExplains Gary mad 😡