Evil is self defeating.

Except orcs in Hobbit have no problems living in multiple stable 'kingdoms' and that was when everyone thought Sauron was dead, sooo...

@KuK137 Actually, a lot of people knew Sauron survived the war against the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, they just didn't know where he was. He could have been helping the various tribes of orcs by secretly training and installing power chieftains to prevent infighting until he was ready to move openly. Remember the Witch King's war against the Duninine?

@@KuK137 yeah, they are capable of forming their 'petty kingdoms' and there are myriads of tribes and orc peoples who would have their own feuds and treacheries and strife, only a strong leader can pull them back into unified single horde :), a great orc chieftain like Azog or Bolg were able to rally the tribes of Orcs (along with other motivating factors, seeking revenge for Great Goblin's death, wanting piece of treasure and resolving to "wind dominion of the north"), the petty realms and orc clans would be fighting each other and preying on other folk as they always did. In any case I imagine for a long while the situation in Fourth Age with Orcs would be like it was at the early beginning of Second Age: "But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction." In The Hobbit we also hear of the Orc/goblin allainces with other folk, including 'wicked dwarves' so they could have formed some relations with various renegades of other races and peoples...and of course as always there was their alliance with Wargs.

@@ethenallen1388 Who knew he was alive?

Probably. There was Goblin Town in the Misty Mountains. Assuming they didn't fight in the Battle of the Five Armies they might have been reduced during the fighting in the north while the siege of Minas Tirith was underway. Some must have remained. I'm assuming what is meant though is human foes. Scattered remnants of the Haradrim in southern Gondor, Easterlings in Erebor and Rohan, Dunlendings. Basically the same foes that Gondor had been up against for centuries.

I don't know, I would assume he would be busy sorting out his kingdom instead of roaming the land killing Orcs. Respect, M

​@321CatDaddy the two are one and the same. Cleansing the lands both protects it for future generations and ensures the safety of the present generation

I've read the Appendix in Lord of the Rings and other things like Unfinished Tales and I was under the impression Aragorn routed out the Orcs. I also think that Elrond's sons stayed around for a while too. Having read snippets from all over I'm not sure where I get this impression from. I certainly think there was a hunting of Orcs, Trolls etc.

@@richardwales9674 Galadriel leaves and her husband stays for a time in Lothlorien before moving to Rivendell to hang out with Elrond's sons.

Yeah, it sounds like the orcs were living in small bands attacking each other and other groups for the 3000 years between Sauron's fall at the end of the second age and the events of LOTR.

​@@damionkeeling3103The fellowship takes place at the end of the third age

I hold with those who say the orcs would eventually kill off each other. Melkor had created beings that were the antithesis of the elves they’d once been. They were vessels of endless selfish hostility, by design, and, like with the dwarves,we never see any female orcs. Apparently, the evil soldiers that assaulted Helm’s Deep were “grown” and killed anything they found when freed from their birth sacs. They were purpose built as useful, hostile idiots given purpose only by evil leaders. 12:38

Not being under the thumb of a strong and violent dictator opens up the possibility of doing things better if they live long enough. They have a better chance (better than 0%) of recognizing their faulty ways and doing better. They may start out as doing just as much bad bc that’s all they knew originally (it’s their skill set) but they now are not coerced to not learn other things.

​@@rincasarff5200That isn't how Tolkien's lore/worldbuilding really works though. The powers that shaped Arda poured themselves into their creations and Morgoth/Melkor's cruelty, hatred, and desire to dominate was poured into twisted forms of life. Morgoth's fall and subsequent creations were in response to him perceiving Illuvatar's unique Secret Fire (the true ability to give the spark of life) and desiring to possess it for himself. This core motivation is totally alien to literally any acceptance of the life he had and subsequently this core self-twisting character trait was also imbued into the core of everything he (and later Sauron) spawned. Redemption requires the fundamental ability to accept yourself for who you are, that you're not 'god', and that you can be something great already with the life you have. Orcs would be broken attempting to internalize any of this in the LotR mythos.

@@user-us3zg1vg4f who they are technically bound to doesn't really matter in the long run, defeat and destruction of Morgoth didn't make them all die out so Sauron's defeat won't either unless in som far off future day. And that's the point of my message right :) to point out there are plenty of dark places in the world, and areas where the Orcs would be active? :) Misty Mountains, whole of the Ered Mithrin, Grey Mountains and other places would be still having a lot of them....the remnants of Sauron's armies that were not destroyed (or killed themselves or through infighting) would disperse into the world, meeting with the other previously semi independent (but still often in allegiance with Mordor or indirectly controlled through Sauron sending his servants among them) orc clans and tribes....they would prey on the other peoples, raiding and pillaging etc. and there would be orc remnants to deal with on Gondor's borderlands for years to come.....

@@user-us3zg1vg4f can you express yourself clearere next time? As for the whole deal with Sauron and so on...he was assuming leadership over Orcs already under Morgoth but later after the fall of Thangorodrim it was Sauron who became the ruler of Orcs and managed to dominate them in many ways even stronger than Morgoth: "But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command. And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction. It is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days, and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him, and endeavouring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth. While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice." Which of course doesn't exclude possibility of the semi independent orc tribes and clans who are doing their own thing...indeed in Second Age they did set up on their own but Sauron managed to dominate and control them...and also he managed to breed them further experimenting and so even breeding a new breed....uruks of Mordor who were so ingrained into his service they would kill themselves on his command.

​@@fantasywind3923Dude, I really hope you found that online somewhere to copy/paste here. I'd hate for you to have done all that to go against a nonsense argument.

@@fantasywind3923 Ered Mithrin and Grey Mountains are the same thing

@@maximus3160 I know that I was merely using both names.

They evolve into goblins I guess.

It did not mean they could survive just because they ran away. They would need an evil shadow to guide them and shield them. I do not think people understand how vile they are.

@@Art-is-craft Not really sure where you get that impression. They just need food, water, and shelter from sunlight to survive. Not some "dark shadow to guide them" Sure they would more than likely need something along those lines to rise up again and start another war, but not to simply survive. They could absolutely do so by continuously running away lol

@@TyranasauruzFlex6669 They can't fully organize or make grand scale plans but they perfectly fine in their burrows.

@@Art-is-craft The thing with Orcs is, they are still children of Iluvatar. Corrupted by Morgoth, but still apart of Arda. Foul & terrible beings, but things like that have a habit of surviving. Point in case, Durin's Bane.

Interesting theory

Same here

Me too

I think its also meant to demonstrate the shift in the world. All these battles fought had humans on the back foot. Defeat was inevitable if not for the intervention of others. Gandalf and the rohirrim, Aragon leading a rear assault at Minas Tirith, the eagles intercepting the nazgul and their felbeasts. Finally Frodo destroying the ring while the armies of men bought time. After all this, men hold the advantage. They are scouring the orcs. But this gesture shows that those times are past. Middle Earth is to be ruled by mortal men. This enemy that has oppressed them for centuries. I will fight you. I will meet you on equal ground. And I will win. There's no more tricks. Hat pulls or anything. Men will rule over Middle Earth without needing the help of immortal elves or divine beings. They stand on their own two feet and succeed

Yeah the Orcs are capable of possessing more positive virtues and traits...they can be brave, have loyalty at least towards their chieftains and so seek revenge on their deaths and comrades, they have notions of acceptable behavior like leaving comrades behind is bad (though they will do so hypocritically if the need will call for it: "The big fellow with sharp sword doesn't seem to have thought him worth much anyhow - just left him lying: regular Elvish trick."/"D'you remember old Ufthak? We lost him for days. Then we found him in a corner; hanging up he was, but he was wide awake and glaring. How we laughed! She'd forgotten him, maybe, but we didn't touch him - no good interfering with Her.'" They certainly can socialize and cooperate when there is a need for it. At times they help each other when they promise support, even share loot, but often are treacherous they have feuds and strife of their own can betray each other "'Not our orders!' said one of the earlier voices. 'We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.'"/"Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge ..." "'I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him." They like to have fun and enjoy themselves: "While Goblins quaff, and Goblins laugh Round and round far underground "/"There they fell to carousing and feasting on their booty; and after tormenting their prisoners most fell drunkenly asleep." Obviously they have cruel idea of fun or 'sport', torturing people for fun! The Orcs at battle of Hornburg also....knew and accepted the rules of parlay :)...they stopped shooting when Aragorn gave sign for talks :). "At last Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of the enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley. The Orcs yelled and jeered. "Come down! Come down!" they cried. "If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!" "The king stays or comes at his own will," said Aragorn. "Then what are you doing here?" they answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai." "I looked out to see the dawn," said Aragorn. "What of the dawn?" they jeered. "We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?" "None knows what the new day shall bring him," said Aragorn. "Get you gone, ere it turn to your evil." "Get down or we will shoot you from the wall," they cried. "This is no parley. You have nothing to say."

@@fantasywind3923 Cool Thanks for sharing.

@@mullerpotgieter Its possible.

​@@mullerpotgieter I don't think the idea that men will no longer require help from divine beings hold true in the LotR universe. Tolkien is a devout Catholic, and both Catholics and Protestants believe in the tenet of relying themselves on divine providence. Sure, one must act and do his/her own part. But his/her life ultimately lies on the hand of a Divine Being.

Orcs were not corrupted. There very presences was a corruption. They are not conscious are are just a living shell filled with evil.

what u mean tolkien was right? that old guy is the one that made the whole middle earth fantasy stories...he could pick and choose how he wanted it to be. right?....

@@kallelund4487 No because it is a subjective view on what is morally wrong or right. For example, if you personally didn't think that corrupting orcs was a bad thing to do, then you wouldn't think that was Morgoth's greatest sin. Tolkien's comment is in relation to his own moral view, and although he can pick and choose how he wanted it, you can also pick and choose what you think is right but obviously to Tolkien, corrupting an innocent race of beings into doing evil things was the greatest evil of all.

By that logic, one would expect the intent is that orcs are by-and-large irredeemable, because for them to have a chance at redemption would lessen Morgoth's sin, would it not?

@@adrianagnew3517 Eru, The One, could have just let Melkor have the power to create his own people and all of that war and corruption could have possibly been averted. He did with Aule, the Valar who created the dwarves out of stone as he had the same desire to create but due to this being an act of "defiance" in his eyes, although good natured, he stunted their race but still let them exist. Honestly, it's all kind of on Eru Illuvatar for not listening to his most esteemed Valar and outright denying him the ability to create for reasons that aren't really addressed or directly explained. That is essentially what led to him falling and corrupting living things. His initial desire to create was not necessarily malevolent. It's all subjective of course as is any matter of "good and evil" but just saying...

i wouldn't be too hasty giving away death sentence, even out of pity. there can always be a chance

Its all either AI art or stolen. Don't praise this hacky art.

…. it’s A.I …

@@only_truthsaik9481 Don't know, don't care dude.

@@raftai665 hahahaha! chill … i dont see a problem man! i also don,t care but i just only give you a info is AI generated voice..Take care ! peace bro ✌️

Goblins produced mustard gas

What??? lol

I never understood this passage from Hobbit

Yes, I agree. Rather than diminished capacity I would assume Tolkein would go for admixture which I think is a correct choice from a writerly perspective (mine but I think I'm not being off or idiosyncratic here). Dude was a bit of an odd chap sometimes but a lot of his choices once you accept the fashy fashness as a kind of autistic naivete are spot on. (I'm assuming possibly over generously from my informally diagnosed own issues)

@@rajasmasala ...Tolkien was never a fascist, and that's coming from a guy who once flirted with the ideology and nearly became a convert. In one of his later letters to his son, he all but referred to himself as an Anarcho-Monarchist, wanting a king who made a point of "ruling" by only getting involved in times of necessity, but otherwise leaving the people alone to get on with their lives.

To add the footnote that was supposed to go with the asterisk, as someone pointed out, volcanic soil tends to be super fertile. So if, with Sauron no longer there, the weather improved and the air cleared up (no more smoke from all of the war factories,) even the area around Gorgoroth might spring back quite nicely.

There called football fans

Texas

I bet the orc women are wild in bed

​@@papalaz4444244Golden Horde

Actually yes, king elessar leaded great armies into Mordor and the Ineer sea and layed waste to the realms of the dark lord and his warchiefs releasing all slaves (massive ammounts, a nation of slaves) there and giving them those lands to live and prosper afterwards. This was done almost immediately after the fall of Barad Dhur.

Ah yes, celebrating your victory over the ultimate evil with a rousing spot of genocide.

I like that polit of view.

Kinda Lovecraftien when you think about it.... just my opinion

All orcs were under the influence of Sauron. They could not exist without that dark evil shield. Even when they were not under the spell of Sauron they still enacted his will.

Only problem with that is Melkor is imprisoned and won’t ever get out

@Art-is-craft Orcs are Melkor's creatures. They don't all respond to Sauron. If Melkor was there, they would leave Sauron alone. Or to better saying it, they would be slaves of Melkor, Sauron included

Nobody cares

@@rltw2753

rltw

@@SethMcFartlane Source?

Get a girlfriend/boyfriend and get out more

I’ve only known the movies, but I always wondered what would happen if that commander ork who captured Mary and Pippin developed an ultra-protective attitude towards them, survived the cavalry raid, killed that crazy hungry ork in a 1-on-1 duel, and eventually defected from his mission-driven reasoning as to why to spare the hobbits for so long; omitting the inclusion of Tree-Beard’s appearance since the course of those three went on an alternative path.

I hear they even set up a bank with misbegotten dwarvish gold...

@@cyberpimp29 ...best comment this year!

Orkish Tricks *intensifies*

What’s the elvish word for oy vey?

LMAO, that was excellent commentary!!

@@axm2044 Goblins and orcs are the same creature.

And leftover mithril would make a fine initial capital for that... bank. Compound interest would do a lot of the rest! ...Sauron had amassed mithril in the treasure vaults of Barad-Dûr.

Those peoples who were given Nurnen and the region were enslaved peoples made to raise food for the armies. The legendarium presents almost ALL orcs as soldiers... so no orc would raise food in farmlands. Those who received Nurnen under Aragorn were humans.

No it did not include the orcs. It was stated Aragorn gave that land to the slaves of Sauron and Sauron had human servants and slaves. Was not granted to orcs or trolls or other such evil servants

@@nataliestclair6176 The orcs are slaves and servants too. I would not call them employees or something like that, Sauron had victims and slaves only.

@@nialencapefet5154 yes they were slaves of Morgoth and later Sauron but they also worked independently as well and often did there own thing when Sauron was "in hiding" such as Azog and the orcs during the war with the Dwarves and his son Blog and the Battle of the 5 armies. But again they were evil, corrupted, and hated all living things so I highly doubt any amnesty Aragorn granted he granted to orcs and trolls. I have to agree with the video, after the Ring amd Sauron was destroyed, orcs most likely formed their.own bands and followed the strongest of their race as their leaders. They most likely went underground and raided human settlements when they could, fought amongst themselves etc. They were hunted by men to extinction and like the Dwarves, just faded after time. Maybe some large groups also went east to join up with the evil men there or went down to Harad amd joined them After the fall of Suaron, both Aragron and Eomer fought side by side for years to subdue what remained of the followers of Sauron which included the men of Harad and the men of Rhun. Orcs are evil beings and were often hunted by men and elves just to kill them.

@@nialencapefet5154semantics really because when talking about the two there’s a clear difference in how these thing would be considered. Regardless of the technicalities orca are servents of Sauron

The issue is what to do with a band of Orcs that surrender? Do you imprison them? Medieval societies only imprisioned aristocrats or other notable individuals. We know that Aragorn pardoned many of Sauron's mannish allies. Do you resettle them? Again, this is unlikely. A band of Orcs is undesirable in any lands under the control of Gondor. Resettle them near a mannish settlement? That's just asking for trouble. Even if the Orcs had initially good intentions, they would grow hungry and steal from the peasants in short order. Another option is to resettle them in Mordor. However, again, this is just asking for trouble. Without Sauron's army of logistics, western Mordor is unlivable. Only the fertile fields of Nurn are viable. However, do you let them set up residence there? We don't know exactly who inhabited Nurn at the end of the Third Age, but it was probably a combination of human and Orc slaves, with a handful of Easterling merchants and administrators. Adding any large number of liberated Orcs to this region would likely drive out the human inhabitants as they would no longer be automatic allies with the Orcs. This region is far from Gondor, so it's probably not easy to maintain the peace. Aragorn could release the Orcs beyond the borders of Gondor. This too is fairly unethical, as many would die in a search for new dwellings, or find themselves desperate and hungry and at odds with whatever settlements of Easterlings and Southrons they happen to chance upon.

While all you say is logical, I think the passages cited make clear that the Mordor Orcs were so enslaved and enchanted, they were closer to ants and a hive mind at the last gasp of Sauron's will, and they were so shocked, as in shell shocked, that they were incapable of rational thought and the best they could do is run and hide. They were described as witless and insane, unlike the proud men that refused to surrender, but fought and died to the last man. Those that were pardoned were the innocent slaves that worked the farms and fields by the waters of Lake Nurn in the southern most reaches of Mordor. IMHO, the only orcs that would have the capacity to surrender, were the half-orcs of Saruman/Sharkey, who came up the Greenway to harass the Hobbits and Breelanders. No more than ruffians, but still capable of more than the typical orc, they could set themselves up as robbers, or laborers, or more likely, hired mercenaries. I can't see or foresee any true Orc or Uruk-hai, able to shake off the taint of the Dark Lords to cooperate with Men, unless it was bad Men in a robber group. And the Dwarves would never make any kind of peace with them, but destroy any orc they would find. With all the orc warriors wiped out in all the various engagements throughout Middle Earth, all that would remain would be the orc strongholds of Mt Gundabad and Goblin Town. Both of those are in areas that the Dwarves and the Woodmen control, and the Dwarves wouldn't leave a single orc alive. That hatred is too pure to be reasoned with. Within a hundred years, I'd believe that the orcs would be extinct.

Tolkien texts hint at the rules of treatment of orcs in war: "....they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded." Indeed when the Orcs were under the mental domination of Sauron or Morgoth they would be almost witless at the moment of their defeat, but when they were not under direct mind influence they could potenailly think of surrendering, though they prefered to either die fighting or flee....the only possible reference to orc surrender is this one side note in Wanderings of Hurin: "He hates this folk. As soon as he saw us he reviled us. We gave him food and he spat on it. I have seen Orcs do so, if any were fools enough to show them mercy." (this obviously being directed at Hurin, and disingenous, but he is compared to orc captive :)).

@@fantasywind3923 That's fascinating! Thank you! Children of Hurin just moved to the top of my reading list.

I think they were shrunk back and retreated to deep caverns as little goblems

@@kathybrem880 That is modern split/misconception, to Tolkien, goblin and orc meant the exact same thing. See orcrist meaning goblin slayer...

Me to. If not try to serve as a laborer on a farm. Learning new skills. Or a small independent group of them living in a camp or colony on thier own. Free of war, tyranny, and oppression. They can't breed, or reproduce on their own. So eventually they would die out.

The only problem with that is that they have basically zero impulse control. Even if an orc "decided" to be good and just fit into the world of men, and even if the world of men accepted him, there would still be the lingering threat that as soon as he thinks he can get something, he'll go for it, regardless of consequences. I always imagined that the last few bands of orcs really tried to make nice with the humans, hunting for them, trading with them...etc., but at the first opportunity, they turned back into their old selves and were forced to be dealt with. Eventually, people would realize that the only way to deal with orcs is at the tip of a sword, which is basically enslaving them, and they weren't up to the task, so they just ended up killing and/or chasing away the orcs, which led to them dwindling day by day.

@@evanharrison4054 I was watched a few other video about orcs. They actually can reproduce via orc mating. I also didn't know that there are female orcs. You make a valid point. They have no impulse control. But maybe they can learn.

Wasn't it mentioned that whoever created orcs can't really create life, but only gross mockery of it? Orcs are not really capable to live like humans, dwarves or elves as they lack self conscious and all of them are just dark magic subject of sauron, and since there's no sauron, they no longer have purpose. They're not "life", they're just construct to act as soldiers, they cannot be thought to live different. They're dark creatures living in darkness forever.

@@frankspikes7858 You just gave me an idea. See, orcs are naturally leaning towards evil, but it was greatly exacerbated by the presence of a dark lord who kept them in fear all their lives. An interesting story would be about an orc who was born after the dark lord fell, who only has his natural inclination for evil, but would, at least in orc terms, be a lot less violent and a lot more capable of peaceful diplomacy than his enslaved ancestors. I imagine him as sort of a mediator between his people and potential allies. The abandoned sequel to the LOTR trilogy would have dealt with the rise of what we could refer to as moral ambiguity. In lieu of a dark lord, humans slowly devolved into a state of constant warfare(that continues to this day, if the Tolkien mythos is to be believed) and the last few remaining orcs, I imagine, would have taken their fair share out of that. ...anyway, basically Suicide Squad, but with orc mercenaries teaming up with fugitive human criminals, lead by a character who does his best to deny his own base instincts for the benefit of his dying race. Sorry about the wall of text. If you are curious how I'd end the story, let me know and I'll type it out. If not, then let me apologize again for wasting your time. P.S.: I hope I used Suicide Squad as an apt reference. Never seen it, just read the synopsis. Loved Peacemaker though...

It´s AI dude ;)

the personification of evil and repulsions are humans and elves, not orcs. trollkien himself is a perfect example due to the lies and bile he published.

​@@mardenhillnah

@@bubsnicket yah

​@@mardenhillok, Grima Wormtongue.

Boy how that would suck, knowing you could have been born a beautiful and and talented and immortal elf and instead you were born a repulsive orc.

@58jharris well put. Gives a big time reason for the orcs to hate.

I think not. In biological terms, the orcs would have completely become a different family, as different as a dog is from from a toad. There would not be any useful interactions, and I hardly think any orc would remember that there were descended from the line of elves once. Their brains are completely degenerated. Also, as stated, orcs' have much shorter live-spans than elves, shorter than even men.. They can be killed and ravaged by diseases. So the elves would not have known any of the current batch of orcs.

@Wann-zo7rn2qn4i gotcha. So even the first generation of elves, the initially destroyed, probably were not understood to be former elves by elves that avoided the torture? Or maybe the first perverted were never released to meet their former kin? Nothing to recognize? Guessing then that the early orcs (2nd generation+) were not even aware of what they used to be? No going to elves and saying save me?

Orcs were not cousins of elves. They were a corruption of pure evil.

No. He lost all form and could never be embodied again. Just as Morgoth was banished from the realm of the living.

@@Art-is-craft No, he was not banished like Morgoth. He could never embodied again, but maybe hold on to a weak soul.

@@benbecker2004 Sauron was banished.

@@Art-is-craft Proof it! 😉

​@@benbecker2004you might need to start reading again or watch movies it's mentioned few things times... 😅

Orcs only had absolute loyalty to Morgoth. It's clear that they feared and perhaps even loathed Sauron. One even hints that they don't much care for following Sauron and they know full well what kind of treatment they can expect.

I thought on that one myself... concluded that Ring would be in the worst of taste. Tangentially, I hope some LOTR page has downloaded all the West Lothian Police vs the One Ring Net-wackery. A laugh like that deserves to be preserved, handed down; at the least wheeled out for science fiction conventions. Not least because West Lothian also saw the humor of the situation. Perhaps it might be read aloud, in a round-robin circle, the way they once did with _The Eye Of Argon._ Break up and you have to pass on the reading to the next reader.

The ordinary business the dreamed of was plundering and marrauding

Devolved or regressed you mean?

Like the race of Man never looted or murdered just for the pleasure of it.

Very much like blks

​@@Cinerary rent-free

@@isaacm2374rent free, as in you and your homies not having to pay rent in prison.

@@assrammington7961 Still going. Truly obsessed.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the king of Goblintown recognized Glamdring and Foehammer, swords made and used by Gondolin in the 1st age, by sight alone. Implying perhaps, that that particular orc was likely thousands of years old, even if not dating to the first age. Glamdring and Foehammer were presumably lost for quite a long while, as no elf ever claimed to own them ("Hey! My brother, the legendary warrior Sindoglorian went missing in the ettenmoors 300 years ago with that sword, which was weilded at the fall of Gondolin by our grandfather! I'm sure glad you found my family heirloom, gimme here pleaze")

@@userequaltoNull in the case of swords it may be also partly cultural...Orcs also tell tales, and pass down tales of the old days and history...the only actual hint at the orc age is the case of Bolg, son of Azog, Azog died as we know in battle of Nanduhirion, which was year 2799....and Bolg his son was leading Orcs in battle during events of The Hobbit in year 2941 T.A. Bolg during his death at Battle of Five Armies would have been at least....around 142 years...definitely more. The other Tolkien texts mention various theories on their lifespan, nature, afterlife fate etc.

I simply must remember not to cut onions when reading....

There are also no elves or hobbits fighting for sauron, so no. Orcs could be seen as evil elves perhaps.

Oh, I just got to the part in the video where you talk about this.

Possibly-they were slaves to evil bosses, they may have preferred to do their own thing

I remember a little short story Tolkien wrote about a sad but good natured Troll who was completely misunderstood and feared and he had no interest in eating others but just wanted to have a friend more than anything else. (I forget the name of the story, it was in a collection of Tolkien's short stories.) Not the same thing as an Orc I know.